Plan B if D Wade and Lebron go elsewhere

[Thespiralgoeson]

I just don't have any interest in getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. For me, there's JJ, then there's Iggy, then there's everyone else.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I just don't have any interest in getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. For me, there's JJ, then there's Iggy, then there's everyone else.

Jefferson is a Post Player. He and Dirk would rarely occupy the same spots on the floor.

The only question is, "Can Jefferson play post defense?"

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I just don't have any interest in getting guys who play the same position as Dirk. For me, there's JJ, then there's Iggy, then there's everyone else.

What? He's a center. Well, but he damn sure would be one here. Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders. Idk why Minnesota would let a stud like Jefferson go, but he > anyone else not Wade or Lebron. Especially > Bosh who I am quickly becoming hateful towards. In fact he shouldn't even be on this list because he's a doucher... and doesn't wanna play here.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders.

While I think both JJ and Iggy are better players than Butler, and would be better fits on the team as well, I can agree with the sentiment that if Caron is the price of either of those two you've still got more work to do. Just to clarify, though, are you also suggesting that a Caron for Jefferson swap would vault the Mavs into (co-)favorite status?

[dalger]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

While I think both JJ and Iggy are better players than Butler, and would be better fits on the team as well, I can agree with the sentiment that if Caron is the price of either of those two you've still got more work to do.

No question about it. Iguodala or Johnson aren't all that much better than Butler. What concerns me about Joe Johnson is that he clearly tends to be worse in the playoffs than during the regular season. He only shot 38.7%, 41.7% and 40.9% from the field in the last three postseasons. I know that field goal percentage isn't everything, but that almost sounds like a Terry-esque pattern and this very pattern is one of the main reasons why we experienced yet another first-round exit. With the exception of Dirk, how many times have we seen players like Jet or Josh or Damp and now Marion or Kidd underachieve during the playoffs? One could argue that Johnson would benefit from playing next to Dirk, however, his numbers hardly indicate that he is a true superstar. Shooting 38.7% isn't even worthy of a second banana.

Sacrificing Butler for LeBron or Wade would be a no-brainer. If we had to do the same in order to get Iggy or Johnson, then we'd better have another impact player on his way to Big D.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

While I think both JJ and Iggy are better players than Butler, and would be better fits on the team as well, I can agree with the sentiment that if Caron is the price of either of those two you've still got more work to do. Just to clarify, though, are you also suggesting that a Caron for Jefferson swap would vault the Mavs into (co-)favorite status?

No Jefferson would not make us any sort of favorite imo. I also like Kaman. But We're gonna need major help. Lebron or Wade kind of help. Someone to make Dirk the #2 option or 1)b. Someone that can get him open looks but also take over the game.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

No Jefferson would not make us any sort of favorite imo. I also like Kaman. But We're gonna need major help. Lebron or Wade kind of help. Someone to make Dirk the #2 option or 1)b. Someone that can get him open looks but also take over the game.

True, someone has to get the ball to Jefferson.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

What? He's a center. Well, but he damn sure would be one here. Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders. Idk why Minnesota would let a stud like Jefferson go, but he > anyone else not Wade or Lebron. Especially > Bosh who I am quickly becoming hateful towards. In fact he shouldn't even be on this list because he's a doucher... and doesn't wanna play here.

[CrazyBoy]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

What? He's a center. Well, but he damn sure would be one here. Joe Johnson or Iggy added to this team without keeping Butler isn't making us real contenders. Idk why Minnesota would let a stud like Jefferson go, but he > anyone else not Wade or Lebron. Especially > Bosh who I am quickly becoming hateful towards. In fact he shouldn't even be on this list because he's a doucher... and doesn't wanna play here.

wtf? hes a power forward and will always be one.
dont just repeat everything espn said.
he is _no_ legit center... he cant defend lowpost. and thats what centers do.

lets compare him to dirk at this age... dirk made 10 rebounds - jefferson 9, dirk made 1,4 blocks - jefferson 1.3
is dirk/jefferson a center? hell no
can dirk/jefferson defend low post? hell no

i give you the credit that he would be our center, like brand would sub in there. but we still need a legit center like haywood to do the most parts. jefferson has some nice athleticism and is very versatile. but that doesnt make him a perfect center

PS: someone mentioned it already - the wolves actually played better when jefferson was on the bench

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

wtf? hes a power forward and will always be one.
dont just repeat everything espn said.
he is _no_ legit center... he cant defend lowpost. and thats what centers do.

lets compare him to dirk at this age... dirk made 10 rebounds - jefferson 9, dirk made 1,4 blocks - jefferson 1.3
is dirk/jefferson a center? hell no
can dirk/jefferson defend low post? hell no

i give you the credit that he would be our center, like brand would sub in there. but we still need a legit center like haywood to do the most parts. jefferson has some nice athleticism and is very versatile. but that doesnt make him a perfect center

PS: someone mentioned it already - the wolves actually played better when jefferson was on the bench

Why are you comparing him to Dirk? That was mistake number 1, that comparison is stupid. Compare him to Damp or Haywood, or both put together. He has low post skills that we have never had. Even in a down year last year he is a huge upgrade at anything we have had on the blocks.

Repeat everything ESPN said? Idk wtf you are talking about.

You give me the credit that he would be center here, like Brand would sub in. What does that mean? Brand also plays Center? So what? You're not gonna ever have a lock down center defensively. Even D Howard hasn't locked down the paint in this series vs Boston. I would rather make the other center work trying to stop Jefferson than have Damp on the floor who can't score or create anything offensively and doesn't exactly shut things down defensively.

P.S. The Wolves actually played better with their best player (by far) off the floor. Ok. Yeah, well if I recall correctly the only time the Mavs beat the CAVS was when Dirk wasn't playing. See how ridiculous that sounds.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Why are you comparing him to Dirk? That was mistake number 1, that comparison is stupid. Compare him to Damp or Haywood, or both put together. He has low post skills that we have never had. Even in a down year last year he is a huge upgrade at anything we have had on the blocks.

Repeat everything ESPN said? Idk wtf you are talking about.

You give me the credit that he would be center here, like Brand would sub in. What does that mean? Brand also plays Center? So what? You're not gonna ever have a lock down center defensively. Even D Howard hasn't locked down the paint in this series vs Boston. I would rather make the other center work trying to stop Jefferson than have Damp on the floor who can't score or create anything offensively and doesn't exactly shut things down defensively.

P.S. The Wolves actually played better with their best player (by far) off the floor. Ok. Yeah, well if I recall correctly the only time the Mavs beat the CAVS was when Dirk wasn't playing. See how ridiculous that sounds.

He has low-post skills, but the guy is NOT a "career center" as you described him earlier. You can argue whether or not he would be a good option at center here, but that is not his natural position. Call me old-fashioned, but I just can't stand undersized centers, or rather, forwards playing out of position. And that's the reason I'm just not interested in Jefferson, Bosh, Amare, Boozer or anyone else who's not a high-scoring 2/3. They will get you killed defensively.

[Mavericks Rockets Fan]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

He has low-post skills, but the guy is NOT a "career center" as you described him earlier. You can argue whether or not he would be a good option at center here, but that is not his natural position. Call me old-fashioned, but I just can't stand undersized centers, or rather, forwards playing out of position. And that's the reason I'm just not interested in Jefferson, Bosh, Amare, Boozer or anyone else who's not a high-scoring 2/3. They will get you killed defensively.

I second this. This is the reason I why didn't think getting a Bosh, Amare, or Boozer was a good idea. LeBron or Wade would be ideal (although I don't see it happening). But I would be happy with Iguodala, Ellis, or JJ.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

He has low-post skills, but the guy is NOT a "career center" as you described him earlier. You can argue whether or not he would be a good option at center here, but that is not his natural position. Call me old-fashioned, but I just can't stand undersized centers, or rather, forwards playing out of position. And that's the reason I'm just not interested in Jefferson, Bosh, Amare, Boozer or anyone else who's not a high-scoring 2/3. They will get you killed defensively.

I never said he was a "career center" but obviously his best success has come while playing Center. The wolves are struggling to find an identity and I don't think it's fair and accurate to say well AL played some at the PF so he's not a center. There is absolutely ZERO question that he would play his minutes as a center here. He would probably get a few minutes at PF too along the way but it's because he can score the ball and create his own shots unlike any of the other big men we have, not because he is too undersized.

I think if any center came here, Jefferson or Kaman are the type that would fit well along with Dirk. Someone that can create and draw attention or a double in the post because Dirk doesn't thrive there. He doesn't inhabit the same area on th floor as Dirk, so I would think that he would fit well here. We have tried Bradley, Damp, Raef, so called defensive stoppers etc and some other stuff but so far no one has gotten it done down low offensively.

[CrazyBoy]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Why are you comparing him to Dirk? That was mistake number 1, that comparison is stupid. Compare him to Damp or Haywood, or both put together. He has low post skills that we have never had. Even in a down year last year he is a huge upgrade at anything we have had on the blocks.

mistake? dude... are you following the mavs since more then 3 years?

anyway ... jefferson is a power forward - period.
what i've done is plain and simple: i compared a power forward out of position with another power forward out of postion... guess what - dirk is stated as a PF/C ... he even said before this season he would play some center again(they only had dampier at this point, who wasnt healty) like he did in his mid 20s with all the bradley/eschmeyer/diop-failures and where he needed to play the 5 instead of the guys above.
at that time, when dirk played the 5, he had similar stats like jefferson now(even better ones like i stated) and similar athletic... man i even see the same lowpost moves on them. BUT - both can _not_ defend if their lifes are at stake. i've watched enough minnesota games to underline this opinion, in fact: the wolves played BETTER with a real center on the court and jefferson on the bench or at the 4 (in nearly every game he was missed - they played better)... that are some heavy facts dude

and no: he would be no upgrade at anything we have. haywood is indeed a very good lowpost scorer - just watch how he did on his old team. but after all those years with lousy center there seems to be no room in any trainer-playbook for some lowpost plays with the mavericks - you think that would change with a blink of an eye with jefferson arrival?
lets stick with haywood and create some plays with him, remember: he came in the mid-season and had zero prepartion time with the mavs. keep in consideration that haywood is a 10/10 guy this season that actually can clear the paint and defend the hell outter all those bigman teams. even dwight howard gave haywood the credits to be a top center in the league. statswise, haywood is in the top10
i rather take brendan with 7 points less per game while beeing a defensive-stoper then a jefferson who only hits around 4X% compared to brendans 56% hitrate in the paint while jefferson got the ball as double as much as haywood. interesting or ?

You give me the credit that he would be center here, like Brand would sub in. What does that mean? Brand also plays Center? So what? You're not gonna ever have a lock down center defensively. Even D Howard hasn't locked down the paint in this series vs Boston. I would rather make the other center work trying to stop Jefferson than have Damp on the floor who can't score or create anything offensively and doesn't exactly shut things down defensively.

seems you dont get the point. even if we sign brand with the #2 from the sixers. brand would never start... same with jefferson. both would come from the bench being the players who substitute for dirk at the 4 or haywood at the 5. by all means you have to keep sure that jefferson and dirk arent at the same time on the court. otherwise you have a defend-wise disaster in the low post zone. its enough that we have a dirk who cant defend and a kidd who cant defend quick guards. we need at least _someone_ who can to it: keeping the big mans out of the zone(worked pretty well) and stopping the quick guards on their way driving to the paint. we cant give haywood enough credit for how well he has done fixing the liability of those two spots alone.

conclusion? as long as we have haywood:
no to jefferson as a starting center.
yes to jefferson from the bench

dont get me wrong jefferson IS a beast. but i doubt he'll fit in the mavs-system. if we lose haywood somehow, we have to rethink the jefferson idea

i hope that comment wasnt to harsh overall... i just want to make clear that we have one of the rare-centers out there that truly can be named as one. not all those Power forwards pretending to be a center.
i desperately hope we resign haywood since we dont land a good center that often (above i named all the failures). we all know he isnt a bogut, oden(healthy) or a howard. but hes close to them - we wont find a better one out there while searching for mr. superstar too

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by CrazyBoy

mistake? dude... are you following the mavs since more then 3 years?

anyway ... jefferson is a power forward - period.
what i've done is plain and simple: i compared a power forward out of position with another power forward out of postion... guess what - dirk is stated as a PF/C ... he even said before this season he would play some center again(they only had dampier at this point, who wasnt healty) like he did in his mid 20s with all the bradley/eschmeyer/diop-failures and where he needed to play the 5 instead of the guys above.
at that time, when dirk played the 5, he had similar stats like jefferson now(even better ones like i stated) and similar athletic... man i even see the same lowpost moves on them. BUT - both can _not_ defend if their lifes are at stake. i've watched enough minnesota games to underline this opinion, in fact: the wolves played BETTER with a real center on the court and jefferson on the bench or at the 4 (in nearly every game he was missed - they played better)... that are some heavy facts dude

and no: he would be no upgrade at anything we have. haywood is indeed a very good lowpost scorer - just watch how he did on his old team. but after all those years with lousy center there seems to be no room in any trainer-playbook for some lowpost plays with the mavericks - you think that would change with a blink of an eye with jefferson arrival?
lets stick with haywood and create some plays with him, remember: he came in the mid-season and had zero prepartion time with the mavs. keep in consideration that haywood is a 10/10 guy this season that actually can clear the paint and defend the hell outter all those bigman teams. even dwight howard gave haywood the credits to be a top center in the league. statswise, haywood is in the top10
i rather take brendan with 7 points less per game while beeing a defensive-stoper then a jefferson who only hits around 4X% compared to brendans 56% hitrate in the paint while jefferson got the ball as double as much as haywood. interesting or ?


seems you dont get the point. even if we sign brand with the #2 from the sixers. brand would never start... same with jefferson. both would come from the bench being the players who substitute for dirk at the 4 or haywood at the 5. by all means you have to keep sure that jefferson and dirk arent at the same time on the court. otherwise you have a defend-wise disaster in the low post zone. its enough that we have a dirk who cant defend and a kidd who cant defend quick guards. we need at least _someone_ who can to it: keeping the big mans out of the zone(worked pretty well) and stopping the quick guards on their way driving to the paint. we cant give haywood enough credit for how well he has done fixing the liability of those two spots alone.

conclusion? as long as we have haywood:
no to jefferson as a starting center.
yes to jefferson from the bench

dont get me wrong jefferson IS a beast. but i doubt he'll fit in the mavs-system. if we lose haywood somehow, we have to rethink the jefferson idea

i hope that comment wasnt to harsh overall... i just want to make clear that we have one of the rare-centers out there that truly can be named as one. not all those Power forwards pretending to be a center.
i desperately hope we resign haywood since we dont land a good center that often (above i named all the failures). we all know he isnt a bogut, oden(healthy) or a howard. but hes close to them - we wont find a better one out there while searching for mr. superstar too

Nope. Just none of it makes sense. It's not only inaccurate but it's also just flat out hard to read.