Dirk and Walker

[ReDIRKulous]

Lately it seems like there has been a lot of discussion on this board as to who has been more valuable... then it dawned on me... hey... both of these guys are fantastic players... first of all we shouldn't be arguing about who is better... we should be thankful we have BOTH of them on the same team!

But the other thing is that I was watching the Sac Mav christmas game and one of the announcers said that Walker had like 17 points in the second half at one point and Dirk had a big half... so I checked it out and they combined for like 42 points or something in that second half. (how can we find out the biggest half by 2 teammates combined this season?)

So I am curious how these two compare to other deadly tandems around the league.. especially in big games. Dirk and Walker both had big games in the win at Staples also.

The really scary thing is that it seems like both Dirk and Walker play their best in the biggest games. It is like they come alive or something. What is going to happen in the playoffs?! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Murphy3]

if the players are of equal value or even close as the mavs move further along in the season, the mavs will be in deep sh!t

[ReDIRKulous]

I disagree. Walker is playing pretty well now. But Dirk WLL improve a lot as the season goes on... but look at this efficiency ranking and Where Walker is at the moment CBS sportsline Also notice Dirk and Finley on this list. I suspect that by the end of the season Dirk should be up towards the top ten.

[Murphy3]

what part do you disagree with?

[kg_veteran]

Yeah, not sure what you're disagreeing with. If Dirk isn't playing markedly better than Walker by the end of the season, this team will not be where people expect it to be.

[ReDIRKulous]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Yeah, not sure what you're disagreeing with. If Dirk isn't playing markedly better than Walker by the end of the season, this team will not be where people expect it to be.

What do you consider "markedly better"?

If you look at "big games" Against elite teams, IMO Dirk and Walker have both played very well.

[Max Power]

The rankings are a total player-rating system based on various offensive and defensive statistics. Players increase their scores with every contribution they make to the game.

There is no way to use these stats to rationalize anything because there isn't an explanation of how the stats are derived.

Sorry.

[ReDIRKulous]

Originally posted by: Max Power

There is no way to use these stats to rationalize anything because there isn't an explanation of how the stats are derived.

Sorry.

You just posted an explanation yourself. LOL


Has anyone noticed that these three guys travel together a lot?

[kg_veteran]

What do you consider "markedly better"?

Dirk should be posting 22-23 ppg and 9-10 rpg on about 45-46% shooting and 36-38% from 3 point range.

[ReDIRKulous]

Dirk should be posting 22-23 ppg and 9-10 rpg on about 45-46% shooting and 36-38% from 3 point range.

So how have Dirk's stats been in contrast in big games this season so far? Or were you saying on a per-game basis? On average? Yes... maybe Dirk has been a bit inconsitent this season... but Dirk has played well in games this season.

And is that Markedly better than Walker at this point? Or do you think Dirk will average as many assists as Walker? Dirk is more of a score and Walker more of a player maker... but I think they will be of near equal value.

[kg_veteran]

So how have Dirk's stats been in contrast in beig games this seaosn so far? Or were you saying on a per game basis? On average? Yes... maybe Dirk has been a bit inconsitent this season... but Dirk has played well in games this season.

And is that Markedly better than Walker at this point? Or do you think Dirk will average as many assists as Walker?

Those numbers I mentioned are obviously per game stats that he should be averaging by the end of the season.

When I say markedly better I mean there should be no debate about who is playing the best OR who is the best player. There really shouldn't be a debate about the latter even now, but there could be a debate about the former, at least to this point in the season.

[ReDIRKulous]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Those numbers I mentioned are obviously per game stats that he should be averaging by the end of the season.

When I say markedly better I mean there should be no debate about who is playing the best OR who is the best player. There really shouldn't be a debate about the latter even now, but there could be a debate about the former, at least to this point in the season.

I think they have both played well in big games. Especially against the Lakers and Kings. Our 2 biggest wins of the season. I might even venture that Walker has made MORE of an impact in big games than Dirk. I suspect Dirk will be a bit better later though. And Walker does get a lot of mismatches BECAUSE of Dirk. But he is able to capitalize on those mismatches more so than other Mavs.

[ReDIRKulous]

Is there any doubt that Dirk and Walker are the best big game players this year? This is really my point. Let's disregard who is better, or by how much. These are the best 2 big game performers on a consistent basis... But how do they stack up to other teams best duos?

[V]

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

Those numbers I mentioned are obviously per game stats that he should be averaging by the end of the season.

When I say markedly better I mean there should be no debate about who is playing the best OR who is the best player. There really shouldn't be a debate about the latter even now, but there could be a debate about the former, at least to this point in the season.

I'm guessing your argument revolves around the notion that a team usually needs an MVP candidate to win a title. We know Duncan & Garnett run their teams... but I'm curious who do you think is playing the best for Sacramento or the Lakers? Or do you not think they have a chance at a title?

I'm assume you're going to say Shaq & Peja are the best players for LA & Sac respectively. That's fine but most would agree that on any given night Kobe, Miller, Webber, and maybe others can play at an MVP level just as well.

I think the point here is that the Mavs have at least two dangerous weapons who are showing a tendency to play at a very high level in big games this season.

[ReDIRKulous]

Nicely put V.

The thing is that we just havn't had much consistency this season. But from my vantage point it appears Walker and Dirk will be huge in big games and the playoffs this season. The question is... how will they fare against other teams big gamers? Because of our inconsistency it makes it difficult to figure. Our players probably don't look as good as the others... but what I propose is that we narrow it down to only performaces against elite teams.

[Murphy3]

V, I'm sure his argument has much more to do with the fact that dirk is simply a more talented player than Walker. If Dirk's not putting up better numbers than Walker, then the Mavs aren't getting enough contribution from their best player. I really don't think it has anything to do with the MVP voting or anything like that.

Dirk is a more talented player by a decent margin. He needs to perform to that level. If he doesn't, the Mavs are screwed. If he does perform to his capabilities, the gap in statistics between him and Walker will be significant.

[ReDIRKulous]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
V, I'm sure his argument has much more to do with the fact that dirk is simply a more talented player than Walker. If Dirk's not putting up better numbers than Walker, then the Mavs aren't getting enough contribution from their best player. I really don't think it has anything to do with the MVP voting or anything like that.

Dirk is a more talented player by a decent margin. He needs to perform to that level. If he doesn't, the Mavs are screwed. If he does perform to his capabilities, the gap in statistics between him and Walker will be significant.

See... this is where I think you are wrong. I think Walker has as much potential as Dirk. The question is... will he ever figure out how to use it. Walkers performance against the Lakers in the Staples win rivaled any performance I have seen of Dirk's... but can he do it in the playoffs? that is the question. If so I would say his value is right there with Dirk's

[Walkerforthree]

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous

See... this is where I think you are wrong. I think Walker has as much potential as Dirk. The question is... will he ever figure out how to use it. Walkers performance against the Lakers in the Staples win rivaled an performance I have seen of Dirk's... but can he do it in the playoffs? that is the question. If so I would say his value is right there with Dirk's

Walker is a career 40% shooter, he has nowhere near as much potential then Dirk. The only thing he is, is a somewhat better passer then Dirk.

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous

See... this is where I think you are wrong. I think Walker has as much potential as Dirk. The question is... will he ever figure out how to use it. Walkers performance against the Lakers in the Staples win rivaled an performance I have seen of Dirk's... but can he do it in the playoffs? that is the question. If so I would say his value is right there with Dirk's

I really don't agree with this. but I will NOT argue with almost averaging a triple double, period!!

[ReDIRKulous]

I really don't agree with this. but I will NOT argue with almost averaging a triple double, period!!

I think Walker is even a more "talented" passer than Nash. But I also don't think Walker is anywhere near as "skilled" as either dirk or Nash.

But just going from sheer talent? No question -- it's Walker. Just remember... When Holger found Dirk he had an "ugly shot".

[StupidDannyAInge]

Antoine is very used to taking a back seat to the "star" of a team. He always did most of the work for 3 quarters in Boston only to take a willing back seat to Paul Pierce in the 4th (even encouraging him) Then Pierce would get all the credit.
He has done it before and as long as he is here in Dallas he will do it again.

[Walkerforthree]

Originally posted by: StupidDannyAInge
Antoine is very used to taking a back seat to the "star" of a team. He always did most of the work for 3 quarters in Boston only to take a willing back seat to Paul Pierce in the 4th (even encouraging him) Then Pierce would get all the credit.
He has done it before and as long as he is here in Dallas he will do it again.

are you denying that walker should defer to a better player, in dirk? If so, you lose all credibility. No one thinks walker should just stop playing, but he isn't as good as Dirk, thats immutable.

[uberfan]

Dirk and Walker CAN compliment each other IF Walker will mostly play (or, I should say the coach play him) low and pass out of the low post when he does not have a shot or is double-teamed. Walker can certainly get his share of rebounds from that position. Whether he can consistently guard Duncan, Garnett, or Webber is a different story. But he should be OK against most other of the PF when Dirk is at the 5 and Jamison is at the 3.

I really want to give the Big 5 plus a roation of Howard, Bradley, Fortson, and a PG some more time before any major changes are made. Give me one more big body and a solid, under 30 backup at PG without trading Big 5 plus Howard and Bradley and I will be happy.

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous

See... this is where I think you are wrong. I think Walker has as much potential as Dirk. The question is... will he ever figure out how to use it. Walkers performance against the Lakers in the Staples win rivaled an performance I have seen of Dirk's... but can he do it in the playoffs? that is the question. If so I would say his value is right there with Dirk's

If you believe that Walker has as much potential as Dirk,.....there's really nothing that I can say for you. There's really no reason to ever discuss basketball with you again...no reason to read your opinions...no reason to acknowledge you whatsoever when it comes to b'ball

As for Walker having the ability to almost average a triple double, I think 6.5-7.0 would be about the tops for him in the assists category especially with Nash on this team...
but, that's just my opinion. However, 12 points, 6.5 assists, and 9-10 boards would be absolutely great.

[ReDIRKulous]

If you believe that Walker has as much potential as Dirk,.....there's really nothing that I can say for you. There's really no reason to ever discuss basketball with you again...no reason to read your opinions...no reason to acknowledge you whatsoever when it comes to b'ball

Did you see the last Mavs Lakers game?

[dude1394]

but, that's just my opinion. However, 12 points, 6.5 assists, and 9-10 boards would be absolutely great.

Just about his last line. ;^)

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: dude1394

Just about his last line. ;^)

Just disregard the 6-17 and you're all set. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[StupidDannyAInge]

How nice of you all to decide what Antoine should and should not do on the basketball court? (What any player should or should not do actually)


I always thought games were more about winning then who scored what and who rebounded what?
I wonder where I ever could have come up with such a crazy idea like that?


So when Walker gets his 13 points he should just stop shooting all together?
Great. Now I know everything there is to know about what it takes to play basketball in Dallas. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]


Sarcasm aside I seriously can't believe what I just read. If Walker does what you people think he should do then I can think of many wins we have this year that we wouldn't have if Walker followed your train of thought.

[dude1394]

what you just read was that walker is a poor 3pt shooter and should not do that so much.

[ReDIRKulous]

Originally posted by: dude1394
what you just read was that walker is a poor 3pt shooter and should not do that so much.

Hasn't Walker shot the three really well in big games though?

[dude1394]

I don't understand your point? Are you saying that walker shoots a better percentage in "big" games. Please define big games and do the statistics.

[StupidDannyAInge]

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous

Hasn't Walker shot the three really well in big games though?

When the game is on the line having Walker take the shot isn't actually a bad idea.
Sure he has missed some shots (like in Boston) but I have seen him drill game winning 3's against Philadelphia, Miami and LA. I know there are more but I can't remember them right this second.
The point is he takes those off handed, one foot throw up without a chance in hell of going in shots and makes them a lot. He did it this year to get the game into overtime against Memphis.

Walker has showed his willingness to not take the 3 when told not too (like in our last game where he only took 3) so if you have a problem with him taking them then become the coach yourself[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] (Not you ReDIRKulous but others who complain about it[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Murphy3]

oh lord, here we go again with this garbage..

[Chiwas]

Walker has showed his willingness to not take the 3 when told not too.

I agree with this.

We would need the statistics to be sure about the issues discussed here, but I think they are hard to find.

Meanwhile, I feel that Walker are less affraid or shows more character in the hard times in the games, above all against the teams that the Big Three and Bradley have been more affraid of or hesitant with, like Lakers and Sacramento, among others top teams.

It doesn't mean that Walker produces more. However, it is an asset.

[StupidDannyAInge]

Originally posted by: Murphy3
oh lord, here we go again with this garbage..

I wouldn't worry about it. I don't see Antoine in Dallas after this season (if even then) anyway so you won't have to worry about anyone disagreeing with you and you can be happy.

[Murphy3]

much like how NVE was willing to take the big shots in the crunch time last year. However, that willingness led to him shooting a lower percentage in crunch time than his already anemic shooting percentages.

Yes, Walker had some big games with the three versus top notch opponents. But, he also had some crappy 3pt shooting games versus big opponents. He's an inconsistent three point shooter at best. So, he'll have his big games and his flops from behind the arc.

And like it or not, when you're at 17-12, every game is a 'big game'

[Murphy3]

Originally posted by: StupidDannyAInge

I wouldn't worry about it. I don't see Antoine in Dallas after this season (if even then) anyway so you won't have to worry about anyone disagreeing with you and you can be happy.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me. I just like it when they bring a little something to the table in their discussion.

I suppose that every time the mavs pick up a player that will chunk a shot from anywhere at any time, he'll be praised for not being afraid to take the big shot. I'd much rather have a player that won't take the bad shot in crunch time than a guy that will lose all selectivity at times.

I'm not knocking Walker, just knocking that argument. I like what Walker can potentially bring to this team.

[dude1394]

I'm not knocking Walker, just knocking that argument. I like what Walker can potentially bring to this team.

Good hair shirt wearing there murphy..

[dude1394]

Originally posted by: ReDIRKulous

I think Walker is even a more "talented" passer than Nash.

Really?? What makes you say this, this seems ludicrous? I've seen passes rifled off the dribble with either hand at full-speed from nash?

Walker is a good passer for a point-forward, but compared to nash he's bush league.

[dude1394]

When the game is on the line having Walker take the shot isn't actually a bad idea.
Sure he has missed some shots (like in Boston) but I have seen him drill game winning 3's against Philadelphia, Miami and LA. I know there are more but I can't remember them right this second.

Sure if he is open, but to say that he's better at it than either dirk or stevie is just fantasy. If I need a basket at the end of a game I would rather see it come from dirk, steve, walker-fin, in that order. No disgrace in that, he's playing with better shooters than he ever has before(hair shirt on).

For example FG%, 3PT FG%

Pierce - .437, .367
Dirk - .462, .372
Stevie - .462, .419
Finley - .452, .359..

The point is he takes those off handed, one foot throw up without a chance in hell of going in shots and makes them a lot. He did it this year to get the game into overtime against Memphis.

Didn't that memphis shot like bang off the backboard or something?? Are you honestly claiming that as a clutch shot? Maybe you are thinking he is charmed or something, if so I'll buy it.

[/quote]Walker has showed his willingness to not take the 3 when told not too (like in our last game where he only took 3) so if you have a problem with him taking them then become the coach yourself[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] (Not you ReDIRKulous but others who complain about it[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img][/quote]

Hair shirt... If he's open 3 is about right. If he's feeling it some night then more, but if you are a percentages type of person, you don't want him shooting a lot. I'm still hoping he will finish better and get to the foul line more, if he did he would be much more valuable.