Stephan A Smith is crazy - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mavs777 · 02-16-2011, 04:50 PM

http://espn.go.com/new-york/video/clip?id=6126780

he even called Carmello a top 5 player

fluid.forty.one · 02-16-2011, 05:03 PM

thread worthy

Dim499 · 02-16-2011, 05:28 PM

Stephen A. Smith is a millionaire and can buy as many iPads as he wants. And you can't. So get of yo lazy ass and make some noise folks. Get of yo behinds! You heard what I said!

EricaLubarsky · 02-16-2011, 07:06 PM

Stephen A Smith IS crazy

The Knicks DO need someone. They are terribly overrated. They are one game over .500

Carmello is overrated. The guy can go off but on average he's one of the worst stars in the league

Its also about the price. The Knicks would have him if they wanted. They just dont wanna pay THAT MUCH for him when he'd go there in free agency. Im sure we'd take him for Butler and a TE. Its the dance.

Denver CANT keep Melo. Melo is a primadonna that will walk away like LeBron no matter how competitive the Nuggets are (or would be if he wasnt driving the whole city into media insanity). If they wait, they will most likely lose him for nothing. Its all about price right now and a lot of teams are asking but no team is willing to take the price the Nugs want.

craggmac · 02-16-2011, 07:38 PM

That clip makes me want to see Anthony go anywhere else besides New York. That way Stephen A. Smith's head will explode.

clutch#41 · 02-16-2011, 08:08 PM

Carmello isnt overated???? he's just not a top 5 player. didnt u watch the game where he dropped like 35-40 on us??

aquaadverse · 02-16-2011, 10:10 PM

If the Knicks miss out on signing him, the utter scorn of the New York fans will be epic. Is there any franchise that has squandered more advantages than the Knicks? Location, tradition etc... look how excite the fans are to be a game over .500.

Dolan is a moron.

ceelowdream · 02-16-2011, 11:55 PM

stephan a. smith is probably not a millionaire.

mavs777 · 02-17-2011, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by craggmac

That clip makes me want to see Anthony go anywhere else besides New York. That way Stephen A. Smith's head will explode.

exactly

LonghornDub · 02-17-2011, 03:08 AM

Carmelo is not overrated. He is one of the best pure scorers in the league, and his clutch (<2 mins in the 4th) shooting percentage is extremely high.

thereaper · 02-17-2011, 01:41 PM

They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.

CadBane · 02-17-2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Carmelo is not overrated. He is one of the best pure scorers in the league, and his clutch (<2 mins in the 4th) shooting percentage is extremely high.

He sure as hell isn't a top 5 player though.

LonghornDub · 02-17-2011, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

He sure as hell isn't a top 5 player though.

This I can agree with.

EricaLubarsky · 02-19-2011, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Carmelo is not overrated. He is one of the best pure scorers in the league, and his clutch (<2 mins in the 4th) shooting percentage is extremely high.

hie eFG% just isnt that great at 44.8% which takes into consideration the "other things" scorers do like FTs, and 3pters.

Look at the top 25 guys in scoring (or those players averaging at least 19.2ppg) eFG% and clutch eFG%

1) Durant 51.4%/43.4%/--
2) Amare 51.0%/59.8%/++
3) LeBron 51.5%/43.9%/--
4) Wade 51.4%/55.3%/++
5) Ellis 51.3%/46.9%/-
6) Carmelo 44.8%/47.4%/+
7) Bryant 48.9%/46.8%/-
8) Rose 49.3%/41.4%/--
9) Gordon 52.0%/64.3%/++
10) Martin 52.2%/53.1%/+
11) Howard 56.7%/68.8%/++
12) Griffin 52.8%/45.5%/--
13) Nowitzki 57.6%/61.4%/+
14) Aldridge 48.9%/35.7%/--
15) Westbrook 44.2%/45.0%/+
16) Bargnani 50.2%/43.6%/--
17) Williams 52.4%/50.0%/-
18) Granger 48.5%/36.7%/--
19) Love 50.9%/39.1%/--
20) randolph 49.4%/41.7%/--
21) Beasley 49.6%/48.8%/-
22) Gay 52.5%/48.6%/-
23) Johnson 47.2%/45.0%/-
24) Lopez 46.9%/26.5%/--
25) Boozer 55.9%/68.8%/++

If you look at the list, you see two things.
One-- Dirk is a stud and leads the league in eFG% for all 20pph scorers.
Two-- you see that two players in that list are not like the others-- and about 5% below the rest. Westbrook and Anthony are both WAY below where they should be. The majority of scorers are in the 48-50+% range. A few lag behind at 47%. Westbrook and Anthony are significantly behind them.

The argument could be made that Carmelo would be a great Robin and that may be true-- if he can put his ego aside (which I find troubling)-- but at the very least Carmelo is an overrated player/scorer and a subpar Batman. If you cant be a good batman, you cant be a good superstar in this league. Star? Probably. Superstar? No.

As for his clutch shooting-- it does go up from 44.8% to an acceptable but not elite 47.4%. He is one of the few in that list that indeed do go up and Denver goes to him in clutch time A LOT but eFG is highly dependent on coaching to draw up plays and overrall team execution/talent level. Lopez may score pretty well in regulation but when the game is on the line, opposing teams can shut him down so in that respect clutch eFG% is even more dependent on team performance than regular FG%.

CadBane · 02-19-2011, 04:49 AM

That plummet by Durant is less than shocking.

#41 · 02-19-2011, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

hie eFG% just isnt that great at 44.8% which takes into consideration the "other things" scorers do like FTs, and 3pters.

eFG% doesn't consider fts, TS% (true shooting) does.

EDIT: where did you find those stats?

jthig32 · 02-19-2011, 09:36 AM

Carmelo is a little overrated. His efficiency isn't high enough to put him in the discussion of the best scorers in basketball. He's very good, but he's overrated.

Dtownsfinest · 02-19-2011, 09:54 AM

I don't see how anyone who watches Carmelo play can say he's overrated. I just don't see it. You can bring up any stat you want but if you watch this guy play the guy can score from ANYWHERE on the court. Whether he's a top 5 player or not I don't know but he sure is a top 5 talent. Carmelo can go on any team in the league and make them a contender. That's not overrated.

bernardos70 · 02-19-2011, 10:17 AM

....as a second scorer on an already solid team. Not as a first option. It has a lot to do with how you perceive he is being rated in the league, so in a way it is semantics.

jthig32 · 02-19-2011, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I don't see how anyone who watches Carmelo play can say he's overrated. I just don't see it. You can bring up any stat you want but if you watch this guy play the guy can score from ANYWHERE on the court. Whether he's a top 5 player or not I don't know but he sure is a top 5 talent. Carmelo can go on any team in the league and make them a contender. That's not overrated.

A contender for what? The playoffs? Maybe.

He's overrated because, while it's getting better, many fans still see raw scoring output and equate it to greatness, without considering what players have to do in order to accomplish their numbers. It's what lead people to fantastically overrate Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas, amongst others.

Carmelo is certainly not the chucker that those two players were, but he is very near the bottom of efficiency for the elite NBA scorers.

He's a great player but I don't think he's good enough to be the best player on a championship team, and I think most NBA fans would disagree, which is why I saw he's overrated.

Oh, and if he goes to New York, he will combine forces with another overrated NBA star (for different reasons) to play with the most overrated coach, and become a juggernaut of overratedness(probably not a real word).

Male30Dan · 02-19-2011, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

A contender for what? The playoffs? Maybe.

He's overrated because, while it's getting better, many fans still see raw scoring output and equate it to greatness, without considering what players have to do in order to accomplish their numbers. It's what lead people to fantastically overrate Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas, amongst others.

Carmelo is certainly not the chucker that those two players were, but he is very near the bottom of efficiency for the elite NBA scorers.

He's a great player but I don't think he's good enough to be the best player on a championship team, and I think most NBA fans would disagree, which is why I saw he's overrated.

Oh, and if he goes to New York, he will combine forces with another overrated NBA star (for different reasons) to play with the most overrated coach, and become a juggernaut of overratedness(probably not a real word).

Thiggy... I think the overrated piece you are hitting Amare with has been fairly proven wrong (i.e. he was only good because of Nash). Dude has been pretty stellar this year. His shooting percentage is down, sure, but he is still shooting over 50%. His scoring, assists, blocks, and steals are also up.

As far as Carmello being overrated due to him not being able to be the best player on a championship team, well, isn't that subjective for a lot of the past championship winners? What I mean is, aside from maybe the Heat team that beat us and the Lakers recently where there is just a TON of overall talent but really only one true superstar, haven't all championship teams pretty much had two or three guys that are considered fairly equal in overall talent?

KG/Allen/Pierce
Duncan/Parker/Manu
Shaq/Kobe
Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Wallace

In my opinion, you can really only win a championship if you have an absolute freakishly awesome stud player (Kobe with a lot of help, Jordan with another top-50 player in Pippen, Wade + refs, etc) or with a number of them. Sorry, but an older Billups, oft-injured Nene, Terry-like streak shooter Smith, etc is not a cast like these past championship teams have had - yet he has still made them very good. It is really the KG factor.

NOW - if you put Carmelo on a team with Dirk, a guy that many would call an equal to him, you have started to build something special like these other teams have accomplished. Keep enough talent around them and you have an absolute tremendous chance at winning a championship.

mavs777 · 02-19-2011, 11:46 AM

His true shooting percentage is 54.7 % he isn't in the world of Wade, Lebron, Dirks, Durant, but I do still think he is 10-15 player that would thrive great as a second option, Karl has maybe given him too much freedom, and he hasn't had a second option the last couple of years.

His best year was 07-08 when AI gave him a ton of help

jthig32 · 02-19-2011, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Thiggy... I think the overrated piece you are hitting Amare with has been fairly proven wrong (i.e. he was only good because of Nash). Dude has been pretty stellar this year. His shooting percentage is down, sure, but he is still shooting over 50%. His scoring, assists, blocks, and steals are also up.

As far as Carmello being overrated due to him not being able to be the best player on a championship team, well, isn't that subjective for a lot of the past championship winners? What I mean is, aside from maybe the Heat team that beat us and the Lakers recently where there is just a TON of overall talent but really only one true superstar, haven't all championship teams pretty much had two or three guys that are considered fairly equal in overall talent?

KG/Allen/Pierce
Duncan/Parker/Manu
Shaq/Kobe
Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Wallace

In my opinion, you can really only win a championship if you have an absolute freakishly awesome stud player (Kobe with a lot of help, Jordan with another top-50 player in Pippen, Wade + refs, etc) or with a number of them. Sorry, but an older Billups, oft-injured Nene, Terry-like streak shooter Smith, etc is not a cast like these past championship teams have had - yet he has still made them very good. It is really the KG factor.

NOW - if you put Carmelo on a team with Dirk, a guy that many would call an equal to him, you have started to build something special like these other teams have accomplished. Keep enough talent around them and you have an absolute tremendous chance at winning a championship.

Amare is a fantastic offensive player, no matter who he's playing with. But he's a horrendous defender, and has historically been a poor rebounder. Amare is great, and better than Carmelo, imo, but he's not an MVP candidate (which is why I think he's generally overrated) and is getting way more hype than he deserves because of where he's playing.

As to the rest of the point, I don't think Dirk and Carmelo are equal players, which is part of my point. Obviously who can and can't carry a team to a title given the right circumstances is very subjective and hard to pin down. I'm simply of the opinion that given the typical breakdown of talent on an NBA contender, if Carmelo is your best player than you better have two other players that are very, VERY close to him and compliment him perfectly.

Carmelo has, in general, been lumped into the same class as Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Dirk, Dwight Howard etc. and I don't think he belongs there. He's on the next tier.

And thus, overrated.....in my opinion.

Having said that, I'll gladly take him here given the right circumstances. But it's not happening. He's destined for NY and I look forward to their failure.

EricaLubarsky · 02-19-2011, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mavs777

His true shooting percentage is 54.7 % he isn't in the world of Wade, Lebron, Dirks, Durant, but I do still think he is 10-15 player that would thrive great as a second option, Karl has maybe given him too much freedom, and he hasn't had a second option the last couple of years.

His best year was 07-08 when AI gave him a ton of help

His TS% would be 5th on this team

Male30Dan · 02-19-2011, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

His TS% would be 5th on this team

Yeah... 26 year old small forwards that throw up 25ppg on 45% shooting as the number one option on a team that is consistently successful in the regular season (and just ask Dallas how successful they can be in the Playoffs) while pulling down more rebounds (7.6 vs. 6.6) than our 7 foot power forward, 8.3 free throws per game, 2.8 assists, and a PER of 21.49 (Dirk has a 23.73) grow on trees. Fuck that guy. I pass too.

I swear to god. Baseball, football, basketball... Nerd stats just absolutely kill people's ability to form rational thought.

Male30Dan · 02-19-2011, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

Dirk is a fantastic offensive player, no matter who he's playing with. But he's a horrendous man defender and an average help defender, and has historically been an average rebounder.

Couldn't almost the same exact thing be said about our superstar? See above...

jthig32 · 02-19-2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Couldn't almost the same exact thing be said about our superstar? See above...

I would argue that Dirk has contributed more to his team defensively over his career than Amare has.

And, of course, Dirk is a better offensive player.

I'm going to assume that you're just arguing for the sake of it, rather than actually trying to push the idea that Amare is Dirk's equal. Amare's a great player but he's not on Dirk's level.

jthig32 · 02-19-2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Yeah... 26 year old small forwards that throw up 25ppg on 45% shooting as the number one option on a team that is consistently successful in the regular season (and just ask Dallas how successful they can be in the Playoffs) while pulling down more rebounds (7.6 vs. 6.6) than our 7 foot power forward, 8.3 free throws per game, 2.8 assists, and a PER of 21.49 (Dirk has a 23.73) grow on trees. Fuck that guy. I pass too.

I swear to god. Baseball, football, basketball... Nerd stats just absolutely kill people's ability to form rational thought.

That's a hell of a straw man you just built.

Erica's being a bit more dismissive of his ability than I would, but all she really said was that she doesn't think he's a superstar.

mavs777 · 02-19-2011, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

His TS% would be 5th on this team

You are comparing apples to oranges, he would get much less doubles on this team and better looks

mavs777 · 02-19-2011, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Couldn't almost the same exact thing be said about our superstar? See above...

I think Dirk has devoloped into a decent man defender, his help defense is what is weak

Dtownsfinest · 02-19-2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

A contender for what? The playoffs? Maybe.

He's overrated because, while it's getting better, many fans still see raw scoring output and equate it to greatness, without considering what players have to do in order to accomplish their numbers. It's what lead people to fantastically overrate Allen Iverson and Gilbert Arenas, amongst others.

Carmelo is certainly not the chucker that those two players were, but he is very near the bottom of efficiency for the elite NBA scorers.

He's a great player but I don't think he's good enough to be the best player on a championship team, and I think most NBA fans would disagree, which is why I saw he's overrated.

Oh, and if he goes to New York, he will combine forces with another overrated NBA star (for different reasons) to play with the most overrated coach, and become a juggernaut of overratedness(probably not a real word).

Yea when I say contender I mean get his team into the playoffs. Actually have a legit shot at a title is a whole different subject. There's only a few guys that make that list and i'd say its about 3 or 4 and two of them play in Miami.

Just curious though. Do you believe Lebron is a better player than Melo? And by how much if so? Because I believe they're of the same caliber but most would consider Lebron a top 5 talent in this league.

Male30Dan · 02-19-2011, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I would argue that Dirk has contributed more to his team defensively over his career than Amare has.

And, of course, Dirk is a better offensive player.

I'm going to assume that you're just arguing for the sake of it, rather than actually trying to push the idea that Amare is Dirk's equal. Amare's a great player but he's not on Dirk's level.

I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, and I never said he was Dirk's equal (anymore than I said Carmelo was for that matter - I said some would argue). The point is you act as if both are overrated because they are both considered superstars. The fact is - both are. I would be absolutely THRILLED if either joined Dallas. They are both Batman for their teams and would be a tremendous co-batman here. They are not Robins - stop acting like they are. That is my point.

Male30Dan · 02-19-2011, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

That's a hell of a straw man you just built.

Erica's being a bit more dismissive of his ability than I would, but all she really said was that she doesn't think he's a superstar.

Edit... I won't be an ass in public (of course, being a mod - feel free to read the edit).

Underdog · 02-19-2011, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Edit... I won't be an ass in public.

Stopped reading...

jthig32 · 02-20-2011, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Yea when I say contender I mean get his team into the playoffs. Actually have a legit shot at a title is a whole different subject. There's only a few guys that make that list and i'd say its about 3 or 4 and two of them play in Miami.

Just curious though. Do you believe Lebron is a better player than Melo? And by how much if so? Because I believe they're of the same caliber but most would consider Lebron a top 5 talent in this league.

Lebron is the best player in the NBA. Carmelo is CLEARLY not on the level of Lebron.

CadBane · 02-20-2011, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male29Dan

Couldn't almost the same exact thing be said about our superstar? See above...

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Is this a joke?

Average rebounder?

Bad man defender?

What crack are you smoking? Throughout his career, Dirk has been a GREAT rebounder and GOOD man defender.

Top 10 in defensive rebounds NINE TIMES.
Top 10 in RPG THREE TIMES.
Top 5 in Defensive Rebound % TWICE.
Top 10 in Defensive Win Shares TWICE.

It is flat out embarrassing how ignorant some people are. Dirk is an average rebounder now. Throughout his career he has been a great rebounder. And ever since the mid 2000s he's been a very good man defender. Unreal.

CadBane · 02-20-2011, 01:20 AM

By the way, Amare has only ONCE been top 10 in ANY rebounding category.

Male30Dan · 02-20-2011, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

HAHAHAHAHAHA. Is this a joke?

Average rebounder?

Bad man defender?

What crack are you smoking? Throughout his career, Dirk has been a GREAT rebounder and GOOD man defender.

Top 10 in defensive rebounds NINE TIMES.
Top 10 in RPG THREE TIMES.
Top 5 in Defensive Rebound % TWICE.
Top 10 in Defensive Win Shares TWICE.

It is flat out embarrassing how ignorant some people are. Dirk is an average rebounder now. Throughout his career he has been a great rebounder. And ever since the mid 2000s he's been a very good man defender. Unreal.

I fully understand that he has been a very good defensive rebounder in past years; however, being a very good defensive rebounder and a horrible offensive rebounder is like a man giving good oral but having a limp dick. You need to be fairly good at both or you aren't great at sex.

I understand on offense he plays away from the rim most of the time, but he could still show the effort on plays not run for him. He has one of the worst ratios of all time regarding his defensive/offensive splits on rebounding. His rebounding totals have always been directly related to effort, which is why they always rise come playoff time. If he put the effort in on the offensive glass he could have pulled down 12+ RPG in his peak years and likely 9-10 right now.

Oh, and calling Dirk at 7' tall and pulling down just over 6 and a half rebounds per game average at rebounding now is what is embarrassing. That is very, very much below average for a starting PF playing the minutes he is.

To be honest Cadbane, considering the typical quality of your posts here, I actually feel quite good anytime you disagree with my opinion. Generally that means I am spot on.

CadBane · 02-20-2011, 02:23 AM

Bullshit.

So first you call Dirk a bad rebounder, and compare his rebounding to Amare's.

I disprove both lies, and you come back with what? He's a bad offensive rebounder? So what.

The fact is, Dirk was a very good rebounder, period. He was an elite defensive rebounder. Top 5 in DRR% twice.

Looking at Dirk's raw rebound numbers this year is irrelevant. His minutes are way down. His DRR% is still HIGHER than Aldridge, Amare, and Bosh. So yes, even this year he is an average rebounder.

Male30Dan · 02-20-2011, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CadBane

By the way, Amare has only ONCE been top 10 in ANY rebounding category.

Nice cherry picking...

02-03: 13th in overall rebounding (1.1 RPG behind Dirk's 9.9 in 8 fewer MPG)
03-04: 15th in overall rebounding (.4 RPG ahead of Dirk's 8.7 in 1.8 fewer MPG)
04-05: 17th in overall rebounding (.7 RPG behind Dirk's 9.7 in 2.6 fewer MPG)
05-06: INJURED
06-07: 9th in overall rebounding (.7 RPG ahead of Dirk's 8.9 in 3.4 fewer MPG)
07-08: 18th in overall rebounding (.5 RPG ahead of Dirk's 8.6 in 2.1 fewer MPG)
08-09: 20th in overall rebounding (.3 RPG behind Dirk's 8.4 in .9 fewer MPG)
09-10: 17th in overall rebounding (1.2 RPG ahead of Dirk's 7.7 in 2.9 fewer MPG)
10-11: Currently 15th in overall rebounding (2.0 RPG ahead of Dirk's 6.6 in 2.5 more MPG)

In the 8 seasons that Amare has played at least 50 games he has had better rebounding numbers than Dirk 5 times (4 of which were playing fewer minutes).

Yeah, what a slouch this guy is.