NVE to Pacers? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mick · 06-20-2002, 07:39 PM

A few Pacers fans have been circulating this idea on some boards.

NVE for Croshere,Artest, filler, #14.

I'm for it unless something better materializes before the draft. Artest gives us a good defender at SF who can score, though sometimes incosnsitent. But he is young.

Croshere gives us some scoring punch off bench. #14 is getting into lottery range.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 07:45 PM

and that's all the mavs' would give up?
sounds like they'd be getting bent over bass-ackwards on that one

seelenjaeger · 06-20-2002, 07:47 PM

croshere, artest, filler AND #14 for nick van exel?

wow

i´ve never seen fans of a team abusing their own team as much before in a trade offer ...

IN A SECOND for the mavs

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 07:49 PM

let's hope their GM isn't that stupid

mick · 06-20-2002, 07:53 PM

<< and that's all the mavs' would give up?
sounds like they'd be getting bent over bass-ackwards on that one >>

Didn't say Pacers would do it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Just what some Pacer fans have posted. They want to get rid of Croshere bad. They want an outside scorer to take pressure off the inside game of O'Neal,etc., plus to team NVE with Tinsley when Miller is out.

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 07:56 PM

It'll never happen.....Walsh isn't THAT stupid.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-20-2002, 08:30 PM

That trade isnt that stupid. Mavs get the edge but they get rid of Chroshere's contract which im not sure but I dont think its longer than Nicks and they get a good pg in NVE. And Austin for some reason his talent is declining.

Murphy3 · 06-20-2002, 08:32 PM

it's an extremely one sided trade..no way the pacers do that

Drbio · 06-20-2002, 08:34 PM

Not that stupid?

Oh my. It's very one-sided in our favor which is why it would never happen.

Rhylan · 06-20-2002, 09:13 PM

Artest is just the kind of crazy-ass, lengthy backcourt guy we need. Donnie Walsh is no Scott Layden. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] lol....... so it ain't gonna happen.

Mavinator · 06-21-2002, 12:32 AM

NO NO NO NO NO to Ron Artest in Dallas! I don't know how to emphasize that enough! Ron Artest is the LEAST F-ING INTELLIGENT player in the whole goddamned NBA. He plays solid defense but he jacks up horrible shot after horrible shot... he freezes out teammates and monopolizes the offense... and to add insult to injury, he's not even any good as an offensive player! And he's INCREDIBLY prone to stupid mistakes and turnovers, especially in late-game situations. I realize I am sounding a bit obtuse, but I have watched a lot of Pacers games this year (they are my second favorite team) and there is a reason Pacer fans want to dump him... he is helping Isiah Thomas to ruin that team...

FilthyFinMavs · 06-21-2002, 01:41 AM

<< NO NO NO NO NO to Ron Artest in Dallas! I don't know how to emphasize that enough! Ron Artest is the LEAST F-ING INTELLIGENT player in the whole goddamned NBA. He plays solid defense but he jacks up horrible shot after horrible shot... he freezes out teammates and monopolizes the offense... and to add insult to injury, he's not even any good as an offensive player! And he's INCREDIBLY prone to stupid mistakes and turnovers, especially in late-game situations. I realize I am sounding a bit obtuse, but I have watched a lot of Pacers games this year (they are my second favorite team) and there is a reason Pacer fans want to dump him... he is helping Isiah Thomas to ruin that team... >>

This is why I didnt think the trade was that stupid but I did think it was in Fav of the Mavs. I think Mavs would have to give up another player for this trade to even be looked at but I dont understand why would Pacers not wanna let Tinsley start or are they tryign to have a good backup and starter?

Lvubun1 · 06-21-2002, 04:09 AM

I agree it is one-sided, just not for the Mavs. The thing that makes it look one-sided is the draft pick, take away the #14; and NVE for Croshere and Artest is about equal, Artest plays defense but don't the mavs already have 3 Artest type players, he is no more of a offensive player then Buck, Griff, or Najera. I always hear about FG%, Artest's FG% is about .4 higher then NVE's, .410 to 406, Nick has a higher 3pt% .355 to .306. Also his shots per game is only 3 less then Nick so he will hoist them up also. And for being 6-7 with muscles he is a horrid rebounder, only averages about 1 more rebound a game then Nick does. Only clear advange in the stat column is steals, which I'm sure the mavs can grab Sedale Threatt out of retirement to do.

First of all, lets forget the stats for a sec, what exactly does Croshere bring here?

Help Dirk on the boards? He averages 4 a game, don't think so. Defense on the inside, HA 0.5 blocks, Dunked on per minute is up their with Shawn. Passing? Assist-Turnover ratio 1-1. Shooting? FG% 414, 3pt% .342. Contract? Worst then Nick's. Someone to keep Mantis and Esch company? yep. Aside from the game stuff, he went from a huge contract to being the 10th man, he didn't come in wanting to play, he DID NOT want to play so Isiah benched him and now is dealing him, does his work effort really fit what the Mavs are? Look at Dirk, Steve and Mike, I don't think so. Say what you want about Nick but the kid comes to play, 1-13, 1-19, 2-29, or 0-83, he's playing. I don't think their is a GM in the league that wouldn't take a guy who might go 1-10 but is playing his ass off, over a guy who goes 1-3 doesn't care and would like to be somewhere else.

Don't the mavs already have 2 Croshere type players? plus his Foul per minute is barely better then Raef's. Once again what does he bring?

NVE for B.Grant straight up is a better trade. If you had to bet your house, feelings/hatred for NVE aside which one makes the all-star team next year NVE as a Pacer, or Artest/Croshere on any team, who would you pick? I don't see how the trade improves the Mavs. The more I think about it, I don't think Cube would do it unless they threw in the #1.

seelenjaeger · 06-21-2002, 05:37 AM

well actually it is indeed really lopsided for the mavs:

no. 14 Pick - loads of classical PF´s available, maybe an Ely, or even Stoudemire if guys pass on him, or a Carlos Boozer. Jiri Welsch would be a perfect fit in our backcourt as a versatile and quick guard (adding another Nationality to our team). This pick could be very useful to find the role player we lack.

Austin Croshere - not of much use. He´s a body you can throw in. He has, for some reason, still some trade value. And he has alot left to prove.

Ron Artest - I don´t like him either. But he can play both wingman positions, he can defend, has some offensive game, isn´t too old and has some trade value.

That´s quite alot you´re getting for trading away your 5th best guy who plays a position you´re already set up fine at, a guy that has a reputation for going mad at times ...

If that offer is really on the table - go for it ...

Try to add a big body or PG via FA (Chauncey Billups? for Midlevel - Jeff McInnis?), get the complementary player in the draft (Ely or maybe even some Boozer, or a Welsch), kick out Manning and Newman, re-sign LaFrentz.

Maybe we´ll have to make a hard decision on Buckner then - I´d like to see him on the team again, but if Artest will be added, he might be expendable.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 07:35 AM

even if you don't like artest, the trade is extremely lopsided in favor of the mavs.
if you cannot see that, you really don't need to be discussing basketball anymore... go ahead and move on to another sport

madape · 06-21-2002, 07:48 AM

Wow, thats a little harsh Murph. Artest is a Wacko. Mavinator was simply expressing his dislike for the guy.

I like Crochere, he played very well for the Pacers in the playoffs after being frozen out of the lineup during the regular season by an incompetent head coach. He's a big guy that can hit from the perimeter and run the floor. Think of him like a MUCH better Wang Zhi Zhi and you can see how the Mavs could use him. Not much on defense, but he is probably a better man defender than any of the big forwards the Mavs have on the roster now. He's a taltented player that has fallen out of favor in Indiana. I can think of worse players with albatross contracts that the Mavs could be forced to take on.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 08:07 AM

madape, it wasn't directed at mavinator. i agree, i wouldn't want artest on this team necessarily..however, the trade is heavily in favor of the mavs regardless

Drbio · 06-21-2002, 08:13 AM

I don't want Artest either, but the trade would benefit the Mavs. The question is....could we get a third team involved to dump Artest? This is stupid...nevermind...the trade would NEVER happen anyway.

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 08:33 AM

NO NO NO NO NO to Ron Artest in Dallas! I don't know how to emphasize that enough! Ron Artest is the LEAST F-ING INTELLIGENT player in the whole goddamned NBA. He plays solid defense but he jacks up horrible shot after horrible shot... he freezes out teammates and monopolizes the offense... and to add insult to injury, he's not even any good as an offensive player! And he's INCREDIBLY prone to stupid mistakes and turnovers, especially in late-game situations. I realize I am sounding a bit obtuse, but I have watched a lot of Pacers games this year (they are my second favorite team) and there is a reason Pacer fans want to dump him... he is helping Isiah Thomas to ruin that team...

Glad to see you back Mavinator and BOY I COULDN'T AGREE with you more. When people earlier this year was saying do some trade with the Bulls with Fin for Artest and I said that was the most absurd thing I've heard people actually got mad at me.

I always hear people say Artest is a great defender, no what he is is a HACK!!! His steals normally comes after he throws up some HORRIFIC shot and he misses it and rushes the rebounder. Either he gets a steal or a foul. Yes he's young but HELL NO.. I like Croshere but you can KEEP Artest.

Also, not only would this trade be lopsided it wouldn't make much sense to me considering the Pacers have Tinsley and they plan on keeping him for a while. They even traded Best and you think they'd turn around and bring in Van Exel and give up the 14th pick and Croshere and Artest who THEY actually like????

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 08:44 AM

Unless the No. 14 pick is in there, I think this deal actually favors the Pacers. Croshere's awful, and Artest, while a pretty damn good defender, is terrible offensively. I don't think Artest brings as much to the table as Adrian Griffin, the guy he would be trying to displace in the starting lineup.

And what's so great about the No. 14 pick? Does the team need another project? I've seen enough Donnell Harveys and Etan Thomases. Give me a proven big man. I agree with Lvbun -- Brian Grant straight up is a better deal than this one.

I think everyone's giving Van Exel the Juwan Howard treatment unnecessarily. The guy is still a very good player. If we don't want to proclaim Bibby as better than Nash based on one playoff run, we shouldn't proclaim Van Exel as a failure, a bad fit, or a bad player based on three months with the team. You can't have it both ways.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 09:20 AM

I don't like this deal at all even if it is ripping off the Pacers. We don't get anything that we actual need to address in this deal. We need muscle down low, not Austin Croshere. Artest is the type of player as Buckner/Griffin/Tariq. The #14 is realy the only thing that could help us in this deal.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 09:32 AM

<< I think everyone's giving Van Exel the Juwan Howard treatment unnecessarily >>

I've never liked the guy. I don't like his game. I don't like his mindset. I don't think he fits the needs of the Mavs.

However, he is a commodity for the mavs in trade.. so i'll love him when he gets shipped out

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 09:59 AM

<< I think everyone's giving Van Exel the Juwan Howard treatment unnecessarily >>

I absolutley think there is truth to this statement.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 09:59 AM

<< I've never liked the guy. I don't like his game. I don't like his mindset. I don't think he fits the needs of the Mavs. >>

I've never liked Vince Carter. I don't like his game. I don't like his mindset. But I still realize he's an excellent player.

The comment about fitting the needs of the Mavs, however, makes perfect sense, and that's why everyone SHOULD want to ship Van Exel out. Not because the guy's not a good player, but because he's actually TOO good to be a backup PG for the Mavs. Nellie is way too tempted to play him more often than he should, and that's why he must go. We need a Charlie Ward type at backup PG, not a guy who needs to be a primary scorer to thrive.

<< However, he is a commodity for the mavs in trade.. so i'll love him when he gets shipped out >>

He IS a commodity, without question our biggest (that we're willing to part with). The whole point of my prior post is that I don't want the Mavs to give a guy away when they can probably land a pretty good player in return for him.

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 10:15 AM

I don't think Artest brings as much to the table as Adrian Griffin, the guy he would be trying to displace in the starting lineup.

EXACTLY... Personally, I like Griffin BETTER than Artest. He's a better shooter and has quicker hands without being a hack. Artest is probably a tad bit more athletic than Griffin but to use Van Exel to get Artest, Croshere and the 14th pick in the draft doesn't seem worth because if we use him as trade bait there's SO MUCH more out there than THAT!

seelenjaeger · 06-21-2002, 10:24 AM

I dont agree on that Kid ...
We´ve had discussion about VanE for an 11th like Draft Pick STRAIGHT (i dont think thats reaosobable, but we´ve been that far), so why not 14th and Artest and Croshere?

Artest has some worth, some value, and he can put up solid stats. We might be able to play Griffin before him ... well, lets do it. He´ll get hurt sooner or later anyways, same with Buck. So we get a pick, we have a SG/SF type that can put up nice numbers, we get Croshere for whatever it´s worth ...

What else CAN we get?

Hoopsmeister · 06-21-2002, 10:28 AM

The trade is slightly weighted to the Mavs, enough so that I don't think Walsh, who is a good GM, would go for it. But when you factor in the financial and team need issues its not as huge a disparity as some people think.

NVE - The Pacers really need another point guard. And with Reggie Miller as the only real veteran left on their roster, they could definitely use another veteran player to help with all their young talent.

the pick - all that young talent means the Pacers, like the Clippers, don't really need yet another young player. At 14, there are going to be players with real potential for the Mavs still in the draft whether its someone like Dickau to be Nash's understudy, Welsch, Stoudamire to groom as a tandem with Dirk when Nash and Finley start to fall off in 4 years or so, etc.

Croshere - His contract, compared to his production, is up there with Abdul-Wahad's as one of the worst in the league (which is why this deal is not as bad for the Pacers as some of you think). At the same time, I think some of his production problems can be blamed on Thomas - the worst coach in the NBA. He's not a bad player for Nellie's system and could give us some minutes.

Artest - Artest doesn't have much offensive game. Kid, you have watched him more than I have so I won't argue with you, but the one time I really watched his game was in the game against the Lakers in Chicago this year. And in the final 10 minutes or so of that game, Artest's defense on Kobe was very impressive.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 10:29 AM

You can do better than a mid first round pick and a couple of bums off of the 8th ranked team from the Leastern Conference.

No projects. Give me proven players. Kurt Thomas, Brian Grant, Michael Olowokandi, Keon Clark all pop to mind instantly.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 10:29 AM

yes, thekid, i believe that the mavs would be better served to use nve as trade bait to try and get something else.

However, that trade is heavily in favor of the mavs... very heavily. and if that trade was offered to me..i'd give them NVE in a heartbeat

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 10:34 AM

<< yes, thekid, i believe that the mavs would be better served to use nve as trade bait to try and get something else.

However, that trade is heavily in favor of the mavs... very heavily. and if that trade was offered to me..i'd give them NVE in a heartbeat >>

So then you have this scenario next year:

LaFrentz - Eschmeyer
Nowitzki - Najera - The No. 14 pick
Artest - Croshere
Finley - Griffin
Nash - AJ

You trade out Buckner for a taller version of himself (aka Artest), but a guy who's not nearly the team guy that Buckner is.

You get another soft white guy to come off the bench and shoot (I guess Croshere can fill the role that Wang did last year, since he doesn't appear to be coming back).

You get another rookie who Nellie won't play, whether they're a backup PG, a backup PF, or whatever. We'll end up using them as a piece in another deal around the trading deadline.

You weaken the PG situation considerably and all but insure that Nash still won't get the rest he needs next season.

I'm sorry, but I'll pass on this scenario. It actually makes the Mavs worse.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 10:42 AM

Agreed. It does make the Mavs worse.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 10:43 AM

you're way over valuing NVE.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 10:47 AM

<< you're way over valuing NVE. >>

Why, cause you say so? I can live with that.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 10:49 AM

artest would help the mavs defensively and he's as good of a shooter as NVE (which isn't saying much). The team gets younger. He's a decent rebounder..athletic.

Austin isn't exactly soft.

and you get a good draft pick..a chance to get younger while getting more in return than what you sent over.

No, it's not the trade that I would look for.. but if that was offered and the mavs hadn't been able to move NVE for a big man to help out defensively and on the glass... you make that deal in a second

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 10:49 AM

Seleen I see what you're saying, why NOT do it because it still favors the Mavs but if you ask me that trade so NOTHING to address our main issues. It does get you a defensive guy in Artest but that's IT.. However like I said I think with him on the court for extended minutes you are putting your team at risk because this guy thinks he can shoot and he can't.

Also Meister, I think he's a hack but he can defend. As I said earlier he has quick hands just like Griffin, however alot of his steals comes out of frustration on mistakes on the offensive end, he rushes the guy who either just stole the ball from him or gets a rebound after a bad shot. I guess it's not that bad because he will get the ball right back, but this guy is SO inconsistent on the offensive end, that even NVE is more consistent than he is.

My point is we could get something better than trading NVE for Artest, Croshere and the 14th pick.

madape · 06-21-2002, 10:50 AM

Well, the trade WOULD leave us with a big hole at backup PG. However, Dickau will probably be available at #14, and we would still have our mid level exception to use on a veteran.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 10:50 AM

The value of this deal may be tipped in the Mavs favor, yes I agree with that. However, that value is not realy anything the Mavs need and doesn't make us better. Lopsided value is not an advantage if it doesn't help your team.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 10:51 AM

Nellie, if I said the earth was round you would argue that it's flat. Just to let you know, everyone sees that when you post something..well, they simply pass it by without giving it the least bit credibility.

why do i think people are over valuing NVE? because if you look at statistics, age, abilities, and need..there's no way that you could look at that trade and say that the Pacers wouldn't be getting the short end of the stick.

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 10:52 AM

Do you honestly think the trade makes the Mavs better?

And what do you think the guy's value is?

Here's a list of NBA point guards from ESPN...

NBA: Point Guards

Alston, Rafer, Milwaukee Bucks
Anderson, Kenny, Boston Celtics
Anthony, Greg, Milwaukee Bucks
Arenas, Gilbert, Golden State Warriors
Armstrong, Darrell, Orlando Magic
Arroyo, Carlos, Denver Nuggets
Atkins, Chucky, Detroit Pistons
Avery, William, Minnesota Timberwolves
Barros, Dana, Detroit Pistons
Best, Travis, Chicago Bulls
* Bibby, Mike, Sacramento Kings
Billups, Chauncey, Minnesota Timberwolves
Blaylock, Mookie, Golden State Warriors
Boykins, Earl, Los Angeles Clippers
Brandon, Terrell, Minnesota Timberwolves
Brewer, Jamison, Indiana Pacers
Brown, Randy, Phoenix Suns
Brown, Tierre, Houston Rockets
Carter, Anthony, Miami Heat
Cassell, Sam, Milwaukee Bucks
Childs, Chris, Toronto Raptors
Claxton, Speedy, Philadelphia 76ers
Cleaves, Mateen, Sacramento Kings
Coles, Bimbo, Cleveland Cavaliers
Crawford, Jamal, Chicago Bulls
Crispin, Joe, Phoenix Suns
Crotty, John, Utah Jazz
Cummings, Vonteego, Philadelphia 76ers
Daniels, Antonio, San Antonio Spurs
* Davis, Baron, Charlotte Hornets
Davis, Emanual, Atlanta Hawks
Delk, Tony, Boston Celtics
Drew, Bryce, Charlotte Hornets
Eisley, Howard, New York Knicks
Fisher, Derek, Los Angeles Lakers
Forte, Joseph, Boston Celtics
* Francis, Steve, Houston Rockets
Geary, Reggie, Detroit Pistons
Gill, Eddie, Memphis Grizzlies
Hardaway, Tim, Denver Nuggets
Harris, Lucious, New Jersey Nets
Hudson, Troy, Orlando Magic
Hughes, Larry, Golden State Warriors
Hunter, Lindsey, Los Angeles Lakers
Jackson, Mark, New York Knicks
James, Mike, Miami Heat
Johnson, Anthony, New Jersey Nets
Johnson, Avery, Dallas Mavericks
Kerr, Steve, Portland Trail Blazers
* Kidd, Jason, New Jersey Nets
Knight, Brevin, Memphis Grizzlies
LaRue, Rusty, Utah Jazz
Livingston, Randy, Seattle SuperSonics
Lue, Tyronn, Washington Wizards
* Marbury, Stephon, Phoenix Suns
McInnis, Jeff, Los Angeles Clippers
* Miller, Andre, Cleveland Cavaliers
* Nash, Steve, Dallas Mavericks
Norris, Moochie, Houston Rockets
Oliver, Dean, Golden State Warriors
Ollie, Kevin, Indiana Pacers
Overton, Doug, Los Angeles Clippers
Pack, Robert, Minnesota Timberwolves
Parker, Tony, San Antonio Spurs
* Payton, Gary, Seattle SuperSonics
Porter, Terry, San Antonio Spurs
Richardson, Norm, Chicago Bulls
Satterfield, Kenny, Denver Nuggets
Shaw, Brian, Los Angeles Lakers
Snow, Eric, Philadelphia 76ers
Solomon, Willie, Memphis Grizzlies
Stockton, John, Utah Jazz
Stoudamire, Damon, Portland Trail Blazers
Strickland, Rod, Miami Heat
Tinsley, Jamaal, Indiana Pacers
Trepagnier, Jeff, Cleveland Cavaliers
Van Exel, Nick, Dallas Mavericks
Vaughn, Jacque, Atlanta Hawks
Ward, Charlie, New York Knicks
Whitney, Chris, Washington Wizards
Williams, Alvin, Toronto Raptors
Williams, Jason, Memphis Grizzlies
Williams, Shammond, Seattle SuperSonics

I put an asterisk by every PG I think is clearly better than Van Exel. He still ranks 9th in the league. You might argue about a name or two, which is a waste of time. The point is, the guy's still one of the top 9-10 PG's in the league. And you're telling me that the best we can get is two bench players and a mid first rounder?

I think you're really undervaluing the guy.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 10:55 AM

nellie, the argument hasn't been that it isn't something the mavs need.. it has been that the trade is heavily in favor of the mavs..which it is.

no, it's not necessarily the mavs number 1 need..which is what EVERYONE has said. However, if you weren't able to address your #1 need and indiana was stupid enough to offer that trade, you make it in a heartbeat.

the kid:

<< However like I said I think with him on the court for extended minutes you are putting your team at risk because this guy thinks he can shoot and he can't. >>

the same can be said about NVE.