NVE to Pacers? - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 01:01 PM

my argument has never been that i would make this trade instead of making a trade for a big man... that hasn't been the argument at all. if that's what you thought the debate was about..you've been arguing about the wrong thing all morning/afternoon

aexchange · 06-21-2002, 01:02 PM

the thing is, i dont think you get a project with the 14th pick in the draft. everyone is saying the draft goes about 20 good players deep meaning the mavs have a chance to get a big man (borchardt from stanford) or a pg to groom. if someone told you, that you could get borchardt, artest, croshere for NVE i think everyone would do it in a second.

FilthyFinMavs · 06-21-2002, 01:04 PM

<< my argument has never been that i would make this trade instead of making a trade for a big man... that hasn't been the argument at all. if that's what you thought the debate was about..you've been arguing about the wrong thing all morning/afternoon >>

Well no what I thought u said was that this trade will make the mavs better. I was pointing out that Artest isnt as good as peopl ehype him up to be. His defense is recognized because he played for a weak defensive team like the Bulls. Chroshere I dont know whawt to say about him he is some how declining and just getting worser and worser and his contract doesent make me happy either. I was just saying that this would make the mavs worser because we would bring in 2 guys who would be at the bottom of our Roster becuase we have guys in here who are better than them and we wuld be more effective with NVE who can drive any time he pleases compared to Chroshere and Artest. I think Pacer fans see this too this is why they bring the trade up to get rid of lost luggage.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 01:07 PM

sure, the trade would make the mavs better..but it isn't the trade that I'd like to see the mavs make because i think they can use nve to address other issues

aexchange · 06-21-2002, 01:08 PM

another thing ...

about crosheres contract, personally i really dont care one way or another seeing as how the mavs are going to be over the salary cap anyways b/c they have 2 maxed out players in dirk and fin, along with nash making sizable money. regardless of whether they pick up croshere who makes too much money, or bruno sundov who makes diddly, it wont affect their salary cap space, b/c they'll be over regardless.

mick · 06-21-2002, 01:10 PM

Different viewpoint from pacerfan posted on another Mavs board.

>>I'm one from Indiana who would favor a VanExel trade for Artest, the pick at 14, and Croshere.

We need a guard who can score and keep the defenses from sagging on Jermaine. Nick would start, I assume, for a few years and then Tinsley could take over. Meanwhile both Tinsley and Nick could also play together some when Reggie is not in the game.

Don't want to lose Artest, but Harrington, Bender, and Artest are overkill at small forward. One needs to be traded, eventually, as we have to live with the luxury tax threshold.

When the trade is made it seems best to get more depth and scoring at point.

We'll see how Zeke, our coach, does this year. I'm betting he'll do just fine, and silence his legion of critics, spread from coast to coast.

I have no doubt if Dallas wants to package Raef with the 14 pick you could easily move up high enough to grab Hilario.

I've never seen the guy play. Have just read the articles. You really think he's worth Raef and a 14? <<

FilthyFinMavs · 06-21-2002, 01:12 PM

<< another thing ...

about crosheres contract, personally i really dont care one way or another seeing as how the mavs are going to be over the salary cap anyways b/c they have 2 maxed out players in dirk and fin, along with nash making sizable money. regardless of whether they pick up croshere who makes too much money, or bruno sundov who makes diddly, it wont affect their salary cap space, b/c they'll be over regardless. >>

But there is a thing called the luxury tax. IM not sure if Cuban wants to pay it for 2 underacheiving guyz.

Hoopsmeister · 06-21-2002, 01:14 PM

<< But there is a thing called the luxury tax. IM not sure if Cuban wants to pay it for 2 underacheiving guyz. >>

Cuban will pay the tax now. He guaranteed it with Denver trade.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 01:31 PM

<< sure, the trade would make the mavs better >>

This is what the argument has become wether it was intended or not. Murph thinks that dumping NVE for whatever we can get for him is going to make the Mavs better vs. most of us that wouldn't dump him for whatever to keep him if need be.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 01:32 PM

well if that's the argument..who's arguing because that was one of the first things i said in this thread

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 01:36 PM

I didn't see you say that anywhere that there was value to keepin NVE. Please provide reference to what you are talking about.

mick · 06-21-2002, 01:50 PM

<< my argument has never been that i would make this trade instead of making a trade for a big man... that hasn't been the argument at all. if that's what you thought the debate was about..you've been arguing about the wrong thing all morning/afternoon >>

I hate to be the one to bring the bad news to you guys, but we probably already have as good of defensive presence on the interior as we are likely to get in FA, or via trade without moving one of the big 3. Same situation as existed at the trade deadline, who is even available?

Now, I am not saying the this Pacer trade would happen, but I can see how it would help both teams.

For the Pacers, besides freeing up log jam at SF/PF, it gives them a veteran PG who can score and work well with Reggie Miller. They don't need any more young guys. They need to free up money to pay their exisitng young guys next year (Harrington/Bender/O'Neal). I don't believe that Pacer's owner has Cuban money and/or the committment to spend whatever it takes.

For Mavs, we can't just go out a sign anyone we want to sign because of the cap. You have to have contracts to trade like in the Wiz trade. Croshere fills Wang role, but he is here year round. You can then do a S&T with GSW for someone else. Croshere played well in playoffs despite being burie don bench in reg. season. Artest is better than most of you want to give him credit for. As far as hogging the ball, others who hav ehad the reputation found a way to fit in with Mavs when they got here. Artest is more athletic than Buck or Griffin, and has been able to stay on the court. He's also younger with more upside. A lot of good options at #14, including the possibility of package and moving up in the draft.

There are a lot of options at backup PG. In FA you have people like Jeff McInnis or even Travis Best availalble. You might find a Dan Dickau or Frank Williams at #14 if you don't see the big man you want there. You can do a trade with Knicks for Charlie Ward and their second rounder for (insert your trade here, Eschmeyer, maybe even pass through a Croshere or Artest)?. Lots of options. I haven't checked salary matches yet.

Keon Clark for the mid-level exception? Worth a look. He would fill the Camby-like role I have argued for. SA and Nets are rumored wanting to move out of the bottom of the first for two second rounders. Trade our second and Knicks for the low round first. Pick up Dan Gadzuric.

Cuban and Nellie haven't asked for my opinion, but there are several ways to make the Mavs better without touching the core and replacing guys like NVE, Buck, Manning, Wang and possibly EE.

And don't forget Isaiah Thomas has said good things about Bradley. So has Houston, BTW. Rudy supposedly said that even if Ming is only a Bradley-type player, he could find a way to work a Bradley-type into their game plan.

Mavs are already over the cap and will remain over the cap as long as we have Dirk/FIn/and Nash on the team. It doesn't matter hopw many more contracts we take on a slong as Cuban is willing to "pay high rent" for the players/contracts until he works out the deal he ultimately wants. With this team and management, you don't look at any one trade as the final piece, just a way to get better, either now or in the future.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 01:57 PM

if you had to choose between trading nve in the pacer trade or keeping him.. the better value would definitely be to trade him..

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 01:59 PM

<< if you had to choose between trading nve in the pacer trade or keeping him.. the better value would definitely be to trade him.. >>

Exactly. That is what the argument has become so stop asking.

Drbio · 06-21-2002, 02:11 PM

Good Grief

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 02:14 PM

<< Keon Clark for the mid-level exception? Worth a look. >>

This would be an excellent option for us if it could be done. If it is possible to get a big man without giving up NVE, then that is what I am in favor of. I guess most of us here are just settling on the probability that it can't be that easy.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 02:15 PM

What's up Doc?

Drbio · 06-21-2002, 02:16 PM

Nada Nellie....

We can get Keon for the exception. But I still think NVE is our most valuable trade asset, and I think he will be moved.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 02:22 PM

<< Nada Nellie....

We can get Keon for the exception. But I still think NVE is our most valuable trade asset, and I think he will be moved. >>

So do you find more value in moving NVE for a quality big man rather than keeping him and signing Keon for the exception?

I just want to make sure I understand you (a practice that is not excercised around here too often)

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 02:23 PM

if you have trouble understanding things..i can see why you have difficulty debating

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 02:25 PM

<< if you have trouble understanding things..i can see why you have difficulty debating >>

Your attempt at villany is laughable.

Hoopsmeister · 06-21-2002, 02:26 PM

<<

<< Nada Nellie....

We can get Keon for the exception. But I still think NVE is our most valuable trade asset, and I think he will be moved. >>

So do you find more value in moving NVE for a quality big man rather than keeping him and signing Keon for the exception?

I just want to make sure I understand you (a practice that is not excercised around here too often) >>

Highest value: Get Clark with the exception, trade NVE for draft pick to be used on a young point guard prospect or for a point guard prospect straight up.

Next: Get Clark with the exception; keep NVE

Worst: Trade NVE for a big man, scramble about looking for a back-up point.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 02:29 PM

worst value: stand pat

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 02:30 PM

if the mavs trade for a big man, do you not think they could use the exception to get a backup PG?

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 02:37 PM

Worst value: trade NVE just to trade him.

seelenjaeger · 06-21-2002, 02:41 PM

worst value: see the lakers win it again next year

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 02:45 PM

<< Worst value: trade NVE just to trade him >>

is anyone implying the mavs should trade NVE just to trade him?

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 02:47 PM

<< is anyone implying the mavs should trade NVE just to trade him? >>

Did I say somebody did?

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 02:54 PM

<< is anyone implying the mavs should trade NVE just to trade him? >>

Actualy, you did imply this with a thread entitled "NVE must be traded"

kg_veteran · 06-21-2002, 02:58 PM

Murph, you can say it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. This trade does NOT make the Mavericks a better team.

Forget about what we'd rather the Mavs did. That's not the issue at this point.

If this is the only trade available, I pass, and so should the Mavs. And I think the majority agrees with me. The Mavericks would be better off standing pat than making this deal. Period.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:00 PM

kg, i'd say you're probably in the minority on this one.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:01 PM

no, the majority isn't with you... some may think that it's not as lopsided as i do..but most have agreed that if it was that trade or not trade NVE..you'd have to make that trade

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 03:02 PM

<< kg, i'd say you're probably in the minority on this one. >>

Murph, how old are you? Do you still get beat up on the playground?

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 03:10 PM

<< Murph, you can say it until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't make it true. This trade does NOT make the Mavericks a better team.

Forget about what we'd rather the Mavs did. That's not the issue at this point.

If this is the only trade available, I pass, and so should the Mavs. And I think the majority agrees with me. The Mavericks would be better off standing pat than making this deal. Period. >>

kg, this makes sense to most who have responded to this thread. No matter how ridiculous Murph's argument is, he won't admit he is wrong because he most likely has an inferiority complex that will not allow him to do so.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:14 PM

it's a dead issue.

TheKid · 06-21-2002, 03:14 PM

Lets ask a question. Who is the more quality player by your definition..who has had the better career:

Then you went on to ask has Thomas or Van Exel had the better career then you said Van Exel.

Well my point in comparing Van Exel to Artest was that Van Exel was sent to Denver and expected to be the man. Artest when he was in Chicago and they traded Brand, he was expected to be the man. Van Exel stepped up to the challenge and produce the numbers Artest wasn't able to improve ANYTHING when he was the first option in Chicago. Throwing Thomas in the situation, he has NEVER been a #1 option.

That's why I said I would prefer to keep Van Exel. He's shown me that he can adapt to situations fairly well. He has shown that he has a bad attitude, but so far in Dallas he's been able to be under control. Artest has a bad attitude and has shown it in Chicago and has shown it in Indiana. We worried about Van Exel complaining about shots, well Artest has done that before.

The only thing I agree with that's been said so far 100% is that we can't stand pat. We need to do something to improve our team. While this "potential" trade improves our depth at one position we lose depth at another. We ONLY improve defensively at the 3 which happens to currently be our best defendsive position, so how exactly do we dramatically improve I don't understand???

The only reason I say that 14th pick does nothing for us is because there is NO ONE in this years draft with the exception of a big 5 or 4 that will get significant time on our court. By the 14th pick anyone worth getting that much time will probably be gone with the exception of Ely. So if we were certain we could get Ely with that 14th pick, then I would say do it, but I don't think Ely will help us out that much next year but I think it would be good for the team in the long run.

Nellie · 06-21-2002, 03:17 PM

<< it's a dead issue. >>

LOL...now that Murph says it's a dead issue, we all need to move on.

Your a joke Murph.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:20 PM

NVE adapting to being the man?
i don't think he was adapting..he was simply given then freedom to do what he had always done.. was he successful?.. ... it depends on what your definition of successful is.. yes, he scored a decent amount of posts but who wouldn't putting up that number of shots... he wouldn't have that many assists if the ball is in their hands on basically every freaking possession.

now, let's ask.
can NVE adapt to what the mavs need?
In all likeliness, no. he has never shown that ability to be a pass first guy.

can artest?
he's more likely to adapt to the lesser offensive role. And at the worst, he's a very, very solid defender.

and you still have austin...and a high draft pick

Hoopsmeister · 06-21-2002, 03:21 PM

<< The only reason I say that 14th pick does nothing for us is because there is NO ONE in this years draft with the exception of a big 5 or 4 that will get significant time on our court. By the 14th pick anyone worth getting that much time will probably be gone with the exception of Ely. So if we were certain we could get Ely with that 14th pick, then I would say do it, but I don't think Ely will help us out that much next year but I think it would be good for the team in the long run. >>

I agree with the rest of your post, but not necessarily with this one. Most of the good big man prospects will be gone at that point, but if we trade NVE we have a need at pg, and there will be a number of point guards still available at 14 to replace Nick and start training for when Nash retires--Dickau being the best example, Welsch being the type to definitely intrigue Nellie.

Murphy3 · 06-21-2002, 03:27 PM

The mavs still need to go after a big man..right hoops?
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