Big man

[Murphy3]

what big man is everyone looking to pick up? what/who are you willing to give up for them?

[MavKikiNYC]

Mutombo is available. I'd punt LaF and/or Mantis and/or NVE.

[Dooby]

I think that is nuts. Mutombo's best years are behind him and he would only slow this team down. To me, doing that deal would be the same as Toronto getting Hakeem. And that didn't work out too well for them.

[Drbio]

I have to agree with Dooby here. I'd like to see a low level big guy. A Pollard type or Keon Clark, etc. Not going to cost a lot and still allows the Mavs some flexibility.

[TheKid]

I'd love to see MacGloire here or someone like Antonio Davis (both are EXTREMELY unlikely). However one that I think could happen would be Dale Davis. NOW I wouldn't play either of them at the five, I would just leave Raef at the five and let one of them play the four. Dirk would just have to play the 3.

I think that would be an outstanding line up..

Nash
Fin
Dirk
Davis or Davis or MacGloire
Raef

[seelenjaeger]

Duncan or Garnett ...

well, I know that´s a little bit unrealistic, but that wasnt the question

[seelenjaeger]

willing to give up:

Nick, Fin and a 1st rounder for Garnett and Billups ...

Fin, Raef and a 1st rounder for Duncan ... while shipping Nick Van E to fill the void Finley will leave to some degree

[Nellie]

Pipe dream: Antonio

Runner-up: Keon or Magloire

Slim Possibility: Kandi

Most Likely: Dale Davis

Prediction: Bradley

[TheKid]

This came from Journal in Milwaukee Wisconsin, this is our chance to get a big man who can rebound, run the floor and block shots and is 6'11 about 275, with offensive skills. This is the guy I've been saying we should look at. All I know is he was the player of the year in the league he played in Europe. Also, we could get him for CHEAP!!!!!!!!!


Former University of Wisconsin center Rashard Griffith, who remains the Bucks' property after the team selected him in the second round of the 1995 draft, has expressed an interest in leaving Europe and joining the NBA after a seven-year career overseas.

But he won't be doing it with the Bucks.

Griffith's agent apparently has asked for around $2 million, roughly the equivalent of Griffith's $1 million-plus tax-free salary in Europe.

"He wants to come back and play in the States, but the kind of money they're asking for . . . he's used to making a lot of money over there," Grunfeld said. "He wants the same kind of compensation here, and we're not in a position at this time to sign him for what he's looking for."

With a payroll of $55 million last year, the Bucks will have to cut corners to avoid the luxury tax this year.

Grunfeld said he would be willing to trade Griffith's rights if another team is interested in signing him.

Griffith, 28, might not have the skills to justify anything more than a qualifying minimum offer.

[Bayliss]

I don't comprehend the statement "_________ will slow us down offensively." At this point in the Mavs future we need to sacrifice a few points for defense. Which would you rather have? Us to score 105 and give up 100? Or us to score 99 and give up 95?

If you want to win in the playoffs you better choose the latter.

(And no I'm not advocating Mutombo... I think he's too old.)

[Murphy3]

a center that doesn't run isn't going to make a 5pt difference per game.. and for every point that would be lost by having a player in that position that didn't run would be made up in offensive rebounds

[Bayliss]

Well, next year I want to see us execute more in the half court than trying to run and gun. Running and gunning is easy (when it's there), but if it's not I'd prefer us to actually get good looks through set plays.

Yes it would sacrifice points, but it's for our good if we have to play the Lakers, or Spurs in the playoffs.

Oh and the big man I want to see in here is Kandi. And if we can't get him I'd love to see Hilario.

[Dooby]

I don't think a big center would slow us down. I think Mutombo would slow us down.

[madape]

I disagree. A slow immobile center would force us to change up our offensive gameplan. Its not all about running. Its about having a stiff in the middle of the paint when we run our half court plays. Instead of having Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, etc.. 18 feet from the basket, we'd have them sitting their fat asses in the paint. Nash wouldn't be as able to penetrate and dish, Finley's ability to drive would be diminished. Dirk wouldn't have as many opportunities to post up. It would force us to be an even BETTER jump shooting team. Does anyone remember Juwan Howard??? The bottom line is that in order for us to play a slow, back to the basket type of center, we would be forced to change up our style of play on the offensive end. I wouldn't mind doing that if the guy was Duncan or Shaq, but Michale Olowakandi??? Sorry, but he's not the answer.

Defensively, how much improvement do you really want? Who killed us more in the Sac series? Bibby or Webber? Vlade abused Wang, but Wang isa worthless player and now he's gone. We've got two of the leagues best shotblockers on the team. Raef is only, what, 24? He's been with the team for less than half a season. I know he can be a good defender, lets just give him some time to develop and get comfortable with our defensive allignments. Also - one of Raef's biggest problems last year was getting into foul trouble. Many of Raef's fouls came from when he helped out and challenged a shot weakside on a blown assignment or driving guard who beat his man. If we improved our perimeter defense, Raef woudn't need to help out so often, and he'd stay out of foul trouble.

What I think we do need to improve on is rebounding. Dirk has done a good job, and our centers probably need to do a little better. But, don't our guards and small forwards need to improve as well? It would be really nice to see Finley, Griffin, Van Exel, or somebody, anybodybeides Raef and Dirk go after the ball when a shot is up.

The bottom line is that I think the Mavs improvement should come through player development rather than through player aquisition. We have arguably the most talented team in the NBA - the nucleus of which is very very young. The Mavs have assembled one of the best coaching staffs ever. Lets trust them to do their work.

[mick]

<< I think that is nuts. Mutombo's best years are behind him and he would only slow this team down. To me, doing that deal would be the same as Toronto getting Hakeem. And that didn't work out too well for them. >>



Ditto, Dooby.

[madape]

Yes - There are rumors that Mutombo may be closer to 40 than to 36. Birth certificates apparently are hard to come by in Zaire.

But the biggest problem with Mutombo is his salary - it's HUGE. If we were to aquire him, the 76ers would need to take a lot of salary back in return. I don't think Van Exel and Bradley would cut it. Assuming they wouldn't be willing to take on Abdul Wahad, we'd more than likely have to send Finley, and I do NOT want to do that.

[Bayliss]

But madape, if we just let them grow then Nellie is going to run the same gameplan that he did last year. And when he goes small (he **always does no matter**), it will eventually kill us in the playoffs.

If we stand pat we will be in the same boat as last year. However, I want to go in the direction of a lanky small forward... a Devean George, or Chris Jeffries (in the draft), than going after a big man.

[madape]

Bayliss. I agree completely. But Nelson has always had the tools to go big. He's just never used them. What makes us think that if we aquired Olowakandi or Keon Clark, that it would make any difference? I hope Nelson will realize that a big lineup can be effective in many situations. That Dwain Price article shows that he knows he screwed up last year. Hopefully he will put those words into action in 2003. Hell, he's got enough smart people on his staff to let him know about it. I know that little Nelson is a big proponent of the big lineup.

[Murphy3]

why would a player such as mutombo have to clog up the middle offensively? isn't it possible to lift him out of the lane forcing shaq out..the same as guarding anyone else?

i'm not saying i want mutombo..but, i don't think a player like that is going to have a negative impact on the mavs offense..at least not near enough to nullify what he'd do defensively

[Drbio]

Jeffries - ok

George- no thanks. He's a spare.

[FilthyFinMavs]

I like Jerome James and wouldnt mind Antonio Davis here but its impossible hell I would even take his brother Dale. Someone posted about Keon Clark and I got hyped about that because I really want him to come here after that dunk he made on bradley last season.

[Hoopsmeister]

<< why would a player such as mutombo have to clog up the middle offensively? isn't it possible to lift him out of the lane forcing shaq out..the same as guarding anyone else? >>



If the Mavs lift him out of the lane, Shaq (or any other center) will just ignore him and stand just outside of the lane available to stop drivers and double-team anyone who tries to post down there. Mutombo is not going to score from out there, he's not going to drive, and he's so slow that if he does decide to come back to the lane, he's so slow the other team has plenty of time to react.

The Mavs would be playing 4 on 5 on offense. And while our half-court defense would improve, our transition defense would get decidedly worse.

Mutombo is a bad, bad fit.

[TheKid]

Couldn't agree more about Mutombo.

[jacktruth]

Madape,

It is about running. We need to improve defensively with a big man, but the rest of the team is running. You have to have a center that can run along with them. A slow immobile center (Mutumbo) can't. If we get into a position where we can't play our offensive game when we have our defensive center in, we'll look the same as we did last year, except with a slow immobile center on the bench.

Besides, what did a slow immobile center (Mutumbo) do against Shaq 2 years ago in the finals? very little.

[Dooby]

<<

<< why would a player such as mutombo have to clog up the middle offensively? isn't it possible to lift him out of the lane forcing shaq out..the same as guarding anyone else? >>



If the Mavs lift him out of the lane, Shaq (or any other center) will just ignore him and stand just outside of the lane available to stop drivers and double-team anyone who tries to post down there. Mutombo is not going to score from out there, he's not going to drive, and he's so slow that if he does decide to come back to the lane, he's so slow the other team has plenty of time to react.

The Mavs would be playing 4 on 5 on offense. And while our half-court defense would improve, our transition defense would get decidedly worse.

Mutombo is a bad, bad fit. >>



Besides, if he drifted outside, he couldn't clear the offensive glass. Rebounding, last I checked, was one of this team's biggest weaknesses.

[Murphy3]

if you pull your big man to one side of the basket and attack the other side...the center that's guarding your big man suddenly becomes alot more prone to fouling.

with dirk and steve's ability to drive and with fin's ability to finish, i don't necessarily see your concern there

[Murphy3]

and i'm not advocating the pickup of mutombo..he was more or less brought up by someone else and i was using him as an example

[TheKid]

Well I see what you're saying Murph, but wouldn't that center have to be someone that could draw the defending center far enough away from the basket to get him in that area where he would find it hard to recover and potentially get the foul.

However with Mutombo on the other side of the basket, basically whomever is defending him can play center field so to speak and guard other people as well as guarding Mutombo. The Sixers try this sometimes and it doesn't work. Mutombo isn't very quick and all of his moves are so methodical that it doesn't take much to defend him.

The only good thing about Mutombo that would be VERY good if he or a player like him were to come to the Mavs is his ability to rebound and block shots. Even old, he still does a good job of blocking shots and rebound.

[Murphy3]

well, i probably agree with mutombo.. i don't want him here....

however, i don't really buy the idea that a slower center would significantly slow the mavs running style.

why would it?
how many players does it take to run a fast break?

[TheKid]

Slowing down the running style, NO I don't think so either, I think when the Mavs go to a half court set though, it would hinder players such as Nash and Fin to drive or Dirk to work the post freely. However you're right from a fast break standpoint, I don't think it would have much effect on it at all. Actually a shot blocking center would probably spark the fast break and wouldn't be able to get back down the court anyway unless he was a trailor.

[MavKikiNYC]

Fair enough to question how much Mutombo's game has diminished, and whether there will be bigger dropoffs in the next couple of years. But it's missing the point to suggest that his offensive contribution would be a net negative--Big D would be coming to Big D for Big Defensive purposes.

While the team would probably have to make some offensive adjustments to take advantage of his abilities, they ALREADY NEED to make some offensive adjustments to become a more consistent threat when teams slow the tempo down and attack them with a halfcourt game (ie, the playoffs). I don't think it would hurt the Mavericks in the big picture to slow down and control the ball a little more. I think part of their turbo-pace last year was an attempt to try to compensate for defensive deficiencies.

If they could pick up Mutombo and say....Harpring, the production they'd be losing from the 5 position (which was LaF's minimal contribution) they'd gain at the 3. I'd rather have a big guy like Mutombo at 7.2/260 doing the pick setting and offensive board crashing than a smaller guy like N&aacute;jera, and I'd rather have a player with a decent outside shot like Harpring doing the 3-point heaves than have my 5 out at the arc.

IMO, the Mavericks' low-post game needs to be focused on Dirk at the 4, but remain flexible enough for him to move outside from time to time. Mutombo becomes a high post player, or a weak side screener, and Harping (or some other 3) is an outside threat. It's far from clear that this would make the Mavs a less potent or a less effective offensive team.

A couple of things about LaF--

First, I wish that Nellie (and fans) would give up the fantasy that he's going to be able to draw Shaq (or Vlade..or Oliver Miller, for that matter) away from the basket with his outside shooting. LaF doesn't have that kind of skill offensively, and I see not one glimmer of potential to suggest that he'd be able to develop it consistently. (Read this and prove me wrong, Raefster.)

Second, he is not nor will he ever be a premier defensive player or physical inside presence (shot-blocking statistics be damned), and it is precisley this area that is the key to how realistically the Mavericks will challenge for WCF/NBA championship in the next 2-4 years. Mutombo is one option; Kandi is another. LaF is not an option.

Kandi offers more potential, but more risk. Still tough to say whether he really matured last year and will be a consistently high performer, and I think there are more potential chemistry issues with him as well.

Mutombo is more of a known quantity, and while he may be more expensive, he may be more easily acquired. IMO, he can be a top-level defensive anchor for at least a couple of more years, which coincides with the Mavericks' biggest window of opportunity. And he also offers exactly what the Mavericks need (defense) without detracting from their strength (Dirk as a low post threat). Couple his addition with that of Harpring, and I think the Maverick's would be upgraded, and upgraded in the right way.

I don't think these acquisitions are likely, but to the extent that Mavericks make changes, this is the direction that I think would yield the best results over the next 2-4 years.

[Rhylan]

<< First, I wish that Nellie (and fans) would give up the fantasy that he's going to be able to draw Shaq (or Vlade..or Oliver Miller, for that matter) away from the basket with his outside shooting. LaF doesn't have that kind of skill offensively, and I see not one glimmer of potential to suggest that he'd be able to develop it consistently. (Read this and prove me wrong, Raefster.) >>



You're wrong. There's nothing more to be said about this paragraph.

Player #1:
3P%, 01-02: .388
3P%, Career: .366

Player #2:
3P%, 00-01: .387
3P%, Career: .377

Raef and Dirk. Who is who?

[MavKikiNYC]

Do you REALLY want to compare Dirk's and LaF's 3-point shooting?

Give net/gross numbers, Ag, not percentages, and that will tell you plenty. Dirk puts up about 3x as many as LaF, so for them to shoot the same percentage isn't all that revealing.

The other issues are: 1) how LaF performed in the Mavericks' system last year (poor...piss poor) ; and 2) whether the offensive philosophy of having your center shoot 3s is likely to maximize team success (no...hell no).

[Rhylan]

Dirk, 00-01: 151-390 3PA/3PM 38.7%
Raef, 01-02: 104-268 3PA/3PM 38.8%


So, you're saying that one year ago, you would have said that Dirk showed potential to be a long range threat. All of us would have. 390 3PA's from the 3/4 spot most of the year.

This year, Raef takes 268 playing exclusively at the 5 in Denver and Dallas, shoots an idential percentage, but has no potential as a long range threat?

For what it's worth, Dirk attempted 40 less three-pointers this year than last. Allow me some conjecture, but I suppose if he takes his game further down low, like everyone wants him to, he could potentially drop to 325 attempts, or even less. Raef, if he chooses to not be so gun-shy, might raise to 300 attempts. Percentages holding, (from this year, where Dirk improved to 39.7%), that's 129 3PM for Dirk, and 116 for Raef.

I think aggregate numbers are not paramount when you're talking about drawing a defender because of an offensive threat. But you want to use them, so let's use them. A hypothetical difference of 13 whopping made three pointers less than Dirk makes you say Raef can't draw Shaq out? You didn't say he couldn't do it -- you said he had no potential to do it. I'm saying, based on the numbers, he not only has potential, he possesses the skills right now as he sits on his porch drinking beer somewhere in Kansas.

And I didn't even touch the fact that Raef's head got in the way in Dallas, dropping his percentage down from 43.4% to 38.8% by season's end. Raef is an outside threat. Bottom line. You have to guard him at the three point line, just like you have to guard Dirk.

I leave you with one question. Wouldn't you say you have to honor Michael Finley's three point shot? Please say yes.

[Rhylan]

<< The other issues are: 1) how LaF performed in the Mavericks' system last year (poor...piss poor) ; and 2) whether the offensive philosophy of having your center shoot 3s is likely to maximize team success (no...hell no). >>



That's not what I was addressing. I was addressing the part of your post that I quoted, that said that Raef does not have, nor does he show the potential to have, the offensive skills to draw Shaq away from the basket. And I disagree.

But for what it's worth, having your center be a 3 point threat, (threat, threat, f-ing threat!), is likely to maximize the time Shaq/Vlade/Whoever spends outside of the lane. Which was what we were talking about in the first place!

[Rhylan]

<< Dirk puts up about 3x as many as LaF, so for them to shoot the same percentage isn't all that revealing. >>



I just caught this. You keep editing! Last year: Dirk 350, Raef 268.

Averages during Raef's tenure with Dallas:

Dirk: 4.6 3PA/Game
Raef: 3.5 3PA/Game

[Murphy3]

and for the record.. obviously, percentages must play a role in how much of a threat you are from 3pt range

[Rhylan]

<< I leave you with one question. Wouldn't you say you have to honor Michael Finley's three point shot? Please say yes. >>



Sorry, but I had to answer myself. And the answer is yes. Finley, in '01-'02, was 76-224 from behind the arc, 33.9%. Inferior to Raef's aggregate OR percentage numbers. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

But no one is going to play defense 8 feet off of Fin when he's behind the arc, are they? So why would Shaq do it to Raef?

[MavKikiNYC]

For the record....

Ervin Johson shot 33% from 3-point range one season (1-3 back in 1995-96 with Seattle), but even with that impressive percentage , he's never been regarded as much of an outside threat.

Rhylan, I'm re-considering some of the points you make a little more seriously, and will respond shortly.

[Rhylan]

Well, obviously some common sense has to be used.. that's why there's no Hack-a-Bo-Outlaw strategy. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]