Big man

[MavKikiNYC]

You make a somewhat respectable case for Raef as a hypothetical threat, and if Nellie made the trade, judging him to be a 3-pt threat on the basis of his 3-point shooting with Denver in the first 2/3 of last season (.434 on 75/173) and thus a threat to <cue fairy tale music> "draw Shaq out" ....well, it's not such a stretch to see where Nellie made his mistake. (Raef proceeded to go 29/95 .305 after joining the Mavericks, finishing 104/268 .389.)

But Raef's season (which you cited) of .367 on 51/139 in 00-01 still isn't comparable to Dirk's .379 116/306 (factor 2.2x) in 99-00; or Dirk's .387 151/390 (2.8x) in 00-01; or Dirk's .397 139/350 (2.5x) in 01-02. I don't think it's at all controversial to say that Raef's hitting the same percentage on half (or fewer) as many attempts doesn't categorically make him a 3-point threat to be feared (and certainly not a threat on par with Dirk).

Going beyond these rather micro-focused assessments, one might also look at LaF's scoring average, his teams' offensive production, and his teams' records for the year in question to determine whether his 3-point prowess translates into efficient team production, and ultimately, wins. (Or was he just jacking up meaningless 3s in meaningless losses on a bad team?)

Perhaps I should've phrased more carefully ...saying that, based on what I actually (as opposed to hypothetically) saw Raef do with the Mavericks last season, I don't think he's ever going to be a fully-realized, consistent threat from 3-point territory within the Mavericks' system, given what they need him to do, and given the players with whom the Mavericks will most likely use him.

This gets more to the points I added in the edit--does he fit with Dallas like they expected him to (no, I don't think so), and is that really the best philosophy to pursue in the future (no, I don't think so). I recall that there was considerable sentiment on this board after the Kings series that a change of philosophy was necessary, and a change of course is what I'd like to see them take.

Again...just my opinion.

Gig 'em, Ag.

[MavKikiNYC]

Ah yes..

and regarding Fin as a 3-point threat...


Yes, I'd respect him if I were an opponent, but rather than based strictly and narrowly on percentage, that respect would be as much because he's an established 20+ppg scorer (as opposed to LaF as a career 13er, with some strong suggestion of inconsistency). But even so, as a fan, based on what I've observed, I still get a little nervous sometimes when Mike lets one go.

[Murphy3]

Raef is a 3pt threat. i see no reason for this debate to have ever occurred

good job rhylan

[MavKikiNYC]

Raef is not a 3-point threat FOR the Mavs, (cf Mavs' team stats for 2001-02), rather TO the Mavs.

I see no reason for this to be a question.

Some posters will undoubetdly turn his/her attention from the hopeless defense of Mantis and the slavish devotion to Dirk, but as for evidence of LaF's status as a 3-point threat, there is no basis for such a claim.

[TheKid]

I think it depends on what you're considering a threat? The way I consider a threat would mean can he hit the three? If that's the case then YES.. However if you're a person that wonders will he beat you by hitting the three, well that's a different story. Then I would have to say NO he wouldn't.

So depending upon how you look at it, both of you would be correct. From Rhylan's standpoint, I think Raef is good three point shooter that he can drain the three point shot and draw someone away from the basket, yes he can, but I guess from a defensive standpoint and what Mavs is trying to say is, if the Mavs have to rely on Raef being able to hit that shot consistently to pose some sort of fear into the opposition, then he's not that much of a threat. That I agree with, I think he is about as consistent as Van Exel atleast what I've seen here in Dallas. Meaning there are some games he's on and you have to pay attention to him, but the next game he may hit 1 out of 6.

Comparing Dirk to Raef isn't fair either. The reason I say, if Dirk goes 12 games and hits 1 three pointer out of 50, do you think Nellie or ANYONE would want him to stop shooting them?? NO! If Raef shoots a little better and hits 5-25 would Nellie want him to stop shooting 3 pointers, HELL YES!!!! To wonder if Raef will ever be as much of a threat as Dirk at 3 point line, he will probably improve but he'll never be the threat the Dirk is from out there.

[seelenjaeger]

Maybe we should throw in the fact that Raef has no plays set up for him to shoot the three at the current system since he just came to the Mavs at the trade deadline and therefore couldn´t be a real threat since he wasn´t completely integrated into the Mavs schemes?

Thinks look HELL different after training camp - after creating a defensive scheme with BOTH dirk AND raef on the floor, aswell as OFFENSIVE schemes will be differenct with BOTH Dirk and Raef beeing able to shoot the three or take it inside ...

Maybe we should just give them some time?

we need a COMPLEMENTARY guy, not another super-star to compete ...

[Rhylan]

All I'm trying to say is that Raef is enough of a threat to draw Shaq out. I compared his stats to Dirk's just to prove statistically that defenders obviously have to honor the shot.

[seelenjaeger]

Rhylan - I am on your side ... I completely agree

Raef CAN be a very interesting matchup for both Divac and ONeal if we utilize him and Dirk properly

[Drbio]

SJ - great points about the set plays.

Rhylan - well done. I happen to agree as well. I see Mavskiki's point, but I lean to your side of the argument. Both of you thought it out well though.

[Murphy3]

there's no way to spin your way out of this one... raef is a three point threat.
a threat doesn't mean that you will single handedly beat a team with your three point shot..
but raef could hit one at any time...he's a very effective shooter from deep.

sure, you can look at however you want.. however, i don't think you could find an NBA publication, GM, or head coach that would say that he's not a threat
actually, i cannot think of anyone in recent memory claiming that he's not one

[Drbio]

Even without set palys, Raef drew his man way out since they all knew he could hit the three. That is very effective. But we need someone to rebound consistently on those shots when he misses.

[Murphy3]

for his career, raef attempts around 2.5 attempts and is shooting nearly 37%..

no, he isn't one of the most prolific three point shooters in the NBA but always a threat.

for his career, he has a higher percentage than both Fin and NVE.


i guess it's like saying nash isn't a threat at the free throw line because he doesn't get to the line as much as dirk..doesn't make much sense

[MavKikiNYC]

Hey, ïf we're picking sides, I'm on Rhylan's side too....1) because he's a good Ag, and 2) because he presumably wants the Mavericks to win.

But if Murphy had used Rhylan's argument, I'd point out that the comparison is specious, meaning the evidence is faulty, and therefore the conclusion is highly suspect.

Potential just means you ain't done nothin' yet.

[Murphy3]

judging from what he's done in his career, he's been a pretty good 3pt shooter.
so, apparently he has done it.
he's a good threat from behind the arc

[Lvubun1]

My question then is why is he here? If he is not a three point threat, and its obvious he is not here for defensive purposes because we wouldn't be so willing to trade a top 10 PG for a random guy over 6-10. What does he bring? People have really short memories, I remember towards the end of the season while Raef was struggling and NVE had 4 straight 20 point games when Nash was sick, everybody was for dumping Raef and keeping Nick, Nick stunk it up in the playoffs, while Raef was probably the best player in the Sac series and quickly the roles were reversed. So if we are not going to stand pat why not package Raef and NVE and get a better option of players.

[MavKikiNYC]

Preach, luvbun, preach.....

[Murphy3]

<< If he is not a three point threat >>



he's not?


i believe raef will be better defensively this year...he's a good shot blocker and he's still young. he's a great 4th-5th option on offense. with his shot blocking ability he becomes a decent defender. no, he's probably not the answer to the mavs interior needs but he's a good piece to the puzzle.

a young player that still has a chance to improve his game

[MavKikiNYC]

<< &lt;&lt; If he is not a three point threat &gt;&gt;

&lt;&lt;He's not? >>



I think you're catching on. He's not.

[Murphy3]

how can you realistically think he's not a 3pt threat?
what is your deal?

obviously, you're not basing it upon what's done on the court

[Lvubun1]

<<

he's not? >>




It was more of a question, then a statement. I'm just saying if he isn't a three point threat, and obviously he isn't the answer on defense because we wouldn't be shopping for another one, he might be worth more to the Mavs if he is packaged along with NVE to grab a impact big man, honestly I don't know who that guy is but with Raef and NVE we should get more then Kurt Thomas or Ron Artest.

Now the question is Raef a three point threat? I not sure, he can hit them but so can 80% of the league, their is a difference between being able to hit them and being a threat, the question is do opposing teams come in worried about Raef Lafrenz hitting three pointers? When you play the Mavs do you say &quot;Don't let Raef shot three pointers&quot; like you would say &quot;Don't let Dirk beat you off the dribble&quot; or &quot;Don't let Finley drive to the hole&quot; or &quot;Don't let NVE get hot&quot; Once again, I'm not sure.

[MavKikiNYC]

<< obviously, you're not basing it upon what's done on the court >>



Just what I've seen him do with the Mavericks. That's all.

[Murphy3]

hmm..well, i think raef is a part of the puzzle for the mavs... he's a big man that can block some shots, hit the open jumper, grab some boards... put him at center and bring in a kurt thomas type player.. or put him at power forward and bring in a olowakandi, and you have a very good front line...defensively and offensively

raef is a very good help side defender if you have a solid man to man defender on the other low block

[Murphy3]

so you're going to completely base it on part of one season.. 1/3 of a sesaon
that's bright

[MavKikiNYC]

<< or put him (LaF) at power forward and bring in a olowakandi, and you have a very good front line...defensively and offensively >>




And have Dirk defend the 3s. Solid strategy, Murph.

[Murphy3]

dirk, raef, and the big man don't necessarily have to play at the same time that often

however, if dirk is beaten, there would be two shot blockers behind him (especially with kandi, not necessarily with thomas though..but it is the case with many of the big men we've speculated upon that the mavs could bring in)... plus, dirk isn't bad at all at the recovery block



or, you could bring raef off of the bench... play him 25-30 minutes at the 4-5 positions..

[MavKikiNYC]

<< so you're going to completely base it on part of one season..
that's bright >>



Murph, you know how you probably watched Juwan for about half a season, and despite what his stats with the Bullets/Wizards might've suggested about his ability as an inside scorer and defender, you just KNEW watching him that he wasn't the answer inside for the Mavs.

I get the same sense here with Raef. He's probably a nice guy and I wish he were a better player, but in my best judgment, I don't see the Mavs being the best team they can if they intend to rely on him at 4 or 5.

Maybe we have a bit of common ground--if the Mavs could get Shaq or Deek or something big at the 5, then I'd be all for keeping LaF on as a 6th or 7th man.

Since this could get tiresome soon, that's all I'm going to say.

&lt;Unless you say something else really foolish that I can't resist responding to.&gt;

[Murphy3]

actually, i think alot of us had followed juwan since he was a freshman in college.. but thanks for the assumption

and i'm curious, why are you changing it to raef's interior defense when what you were arguing was about him being a 3 pt threat in your comment:



<< Just what I've seen him do with the Mavericks. That's all. >>



.... that's definitely interesting.

i understand there's a couple of conversations going.. however, either you're confusing which quote went with which argument or you're simply trying to spin out of this

[MavKikiNYC]

Apparently I have to spell it out for you--

the analogy is

that you could watch Juwan with the Mavericks and tell he wasn't a fit, and wasn't doing what the Mavs envisioned when they traded for him;

I watch Raef with the Mavericks and sense that he's not a fit and isn't capable of fulfilling what they had envisioned for him.

Not a matter of arguing LaF's merits as a defender, low post player or 3-point shooter...he simply won't get them there on any of those counts, which, if you go back far enough, were the original points in a previous post. Calling him a scrub is playful hyperbole, but the underlying sentiment is that he just isn't talented enough to get the job done.

Beyond that, I question the philosophy that led to his acquisition. While I'm resigned to seeing him around for a while longer, I don't really think time is the issue.

Odd how he who cries 'spin' first, usually does so while attempting to distort someone else's points.

[Murphy3]

i don't want to argue about stupid crap

when debating, don't use one thing in an argument to try and indict Raef as not being a three point threat and then try and pass it off as if you were arguing about his defense when issuing your statement.

[Drbio]

Raef will be a starter. Raef will nail a lot of threes. Raef will be greatly improved defensively. Raef will be more comfortable. Raef is indeed a threat to knock down the three consistently.

[Murphy3]

raef is a threat to knock down threes?
but mavskiki said that he didn't think he was a threat to hit threes based upon the 1/3 of a season that raef played with the mavs.. what's the deal?
i mean, is he or isn't he a threat?
the numbers would indicate that he's a good three point shooter but mavskiki says he isn't....

could someone explain this to me?

[MavKikiNYC]

LOL...

I see your various pissing contests on this board (you almost always LOSE) and wonder how otherwise seemlingly intelligent people get sucked into it. You argue about whether Nellie is a good coach; I argue about whether Raef is a legitimate center. Who's crazy?

If you're not smart enough to keep up with the discussion and actually contribute something meaningful, you can always just read the posts and not gum them up with your inanities.

The 20-something games your boy played with the Mavericks are ample sample that he ain't got the goods. His &quot;numbers&quot; with the Mavericks were weak as one-egg pudding.

Now prove THAT wrong.

[Drbio]

I think Raef will be a very good center this year. We need someone to back him sure, but he should be pretty good. A lot of it depends on how Nellie uses him though. Just because he can hit the three doesn't mean i want to see him playing 15 feet plus from the hoop all game long.

[Murphy3]

how am i losing?
you're the person claiming that Raef's not a three point threat?




<< The 20-something games your boy played with the Mavericks are ample sample that he ain't got the goods >>



if i remember correctly, we were discussing whether or not raef's a three point threat. i'm willing to bet dirk has had a 27 game stretch in which he shot the three at a similar percentage as raef. however, look at his career numbers and you'll see that he shoots the three at a better clip than both Finley and NVE.

are you willing to say that fin's not a threat?

or, will you turn to insult and/or spin control to try and save your obviously uninformed opinion?

[Murphy3]

doc, i'd also like to see the mavs play him around the basket more..., that'll help the mavs with offensive rebounds.. and give them some decent putback opportunities

[Drbio]

He did it at Denver. More by necessity. But I think he can contribute under the hoop if allowed to play there.

[Rhylan]

I got 5 things:

1. Raef shoots threes well enough to draw Shaq away from the basket.
2. Raef shoots threes well enough to draw Shaq away from the basket.
3. Raef shoots threes well enough to draw Shaq away from the basket.
4. Raef shoots threes well enough to draw Shaq away from the basket.
5. Raef shoots threes well enough to draw Shaq away from the basket.

I have spoken.

[Drbio]

Rhylan:

You forgot that Raef shoots threes well enough to draw Shaq away from the basket. A simple mistake I am sure.
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Rhylan]

Thanks homey. I always leave that one out.

[David]

It's kind of a silly argument, in my opinion, because just about any NBA player is a 3 point threat. Now there are good threats, bad threats and in between threats. It's a difference in terminology.

Seems like someone did a study on scoring effectiveness. Such as; it takes two 3 point shots to make 6 points but it takes three 2 point shots to make 6 points. You can get away with shooting less of a % of 3s and be just as effective. Or somesuch.