Big man - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Rhylan · 06-24-2002, 10:46 PM

Do you guard Raef out past the 3 pt line? Yes

Do you guard Shaq out past the 3 pt line? No

That's the difference in terminology right there. One is a threat, you must honor his shot. The other one is not a threat, you don't have to go out to him on D.

Those of you that don't understand the concept of a defender having to honor an offensive player's jumpshot -- your homework is to go to the park this weekend and play some pickup games. If you suck, you will notice that the guy guarding you won't come all the way out to 20-22 ft to guard you. A la Shaq. If you can knock down that open shot, they'll come out to you after you hit a couple. A la Raef.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:48 PM

well, david, you can see how incredibly silly it is to say that Raef IS NOT a three point threat

David · 06-25-2002, 05:26 AM

<< well, david, you can see how incredibly silly it is to say that Raef IS NOT a three point threat >>

Perhaps someone was yanking your chain.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 07:28 AM

nope david..the argument started between rhylan and mavskiki.

unfortunately, mavskiki wasn't joking...

you would hope that if someone threw out an opinion like that they would be joking..but unfortunately not

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 07:42 AM

My opinion is that your slavish worship of players like Dirk, Mantis and LaF suggests somekind of deep Aryan homoerotic tendency.

"You would hope that if someone threw out an opinion like that they would be joking..but unfortunately not"

Drbio · 06-25-2002, 08:00 AM

Damn. Mavkiki that's harsh dude. The aryan thing.....not so good.

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 08:04 AM

Did I missspell it?

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 08:08 AM

pathetic..you lose a debate and you throw out that crap

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 08:09 AM

Debate? Lose?

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 08:10 AM

let's see..it goes from you saying that raef is not a three point threat... to everyone telling you that you're wrong...to, you making comments like :

<< Aryan homoerotic tendency. >>

hmm..you're wrong with your basketball point AND you take a personal shot because you cannot handle being wrong.

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 08:10 AM

Pipe down, fraulein....

Drbio · 06-25-2002, 08:12 AM

Mavkiki- the racist overtones...it's weak man. And offensive.

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 08:15 AM

Doc, out of respect for you, and because there was no racist intent, I'll amend the entry to 'Nordic' if you feel that more accurately represents things.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 08:17 AM

why do you feel the need to go to insults when it was you that threw out the comment that everyone that chimed in disagreed with?

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 08:18 AM

It is ok to admit that you were wrong...it really is.

Drbio · 06-25-2002, 08:21 AM

Mavskiki- thanks. I get my blood boiling on racial issues sometimes. If you say there was no intent...good enough for me.

TheKid · 06-25-2002, 09:20 AM

Getting back on topic here.

Murph you said this about Raef:

so you're going to completely base it on part of one season.. 1/3 of a sesaon that's bright

Well you made that assumption about Van Exel in the same period of time AND Van Exel actually played better until the Sac series, so why is it ok to say Van Exel can't get it done and it's not ok for someone to say Raef isn't the answer basing off of what they did over the same period of time?

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 09:50 AM

thekid, i DID NOT make the assumption about NVE's game based upon 1/3 of a year.

I'm basing it upon what i've seen from NVE for years.

Mavskiki said that raef was not a three point based upon what he had seen him do as a mav...

i don't think NVE fits in with the mavs needs based upon what he has done in his entire career

TheKid · 06-25-2002, 10:54 AM

Just my assumption is that I don't think Van Exel has ever been with a quality team or a team that was as cohesive.

In LA, the team was on the verge, but during his time there when he was about to come into his own, Magic came back for a while, then Kobe came in, then Eddie Jones was shipped away who Van Exel was pretty tight with. Then he went to Denver and EVERYONE knows that's a debocle there.

Personally I think Van exel could be fine IF and ONLY IF Nellie utilizes him right and pulls Van Exel back a little. Nellie's style fits more into Van Exels hands BUT Nellie as the coach needs to tell Van Exel to be more of a passer, etc. etc.

The same way I think Raef would be fine too. I ONLY would like to trade either one of those guys for something or someone that puts the Mavs in better position. That's why I wasn't with the Indiana thing because I don't think that makes the Mavs better.

If the Indiana trade was for Artest and Miller then I would say do it, because I think while Miller may not be the answer, he would atleast address more of the need than Croshere and the 13th pick of the draft. I like the Knicks trade for the same reasons. It may not be the answer but it addresses more of the Mavs needs.

Just my opinion, I think you really don't like NVE and I don't think Mavs Kiki likes Raef, but whatever everyone has their opinions.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 10:55 AM

has NVE ever shown in his career that he can look to pass first? i have never seen that.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 10:56 AM

i believe NVE's value to the mavs as a player is less than his value to the mavs in trade...

TheKid · 06-25-2002, 11:42 AM

Well actually he has.. He was second in the NBA in assists in 99-00 season with 9.0 assists a game. Something else that's pretty interesting is that until Van Exel came to Dallas he averaged more than 8 assists a game and in that time period had a better assists to turnover ratio than our man Steve Nash. Nash hasn't averaged 8 assists a game in his career yet, however we seem to think he's pretty good at distributing the ball.

So if I look at that right there, he HAS shown the ability to distribute the ball and share. The only thing that he has CONSISTENTLY done bad is shoot about 41% from the field which is pretty damn poor for a point guard but like I said, that would be a job NELLIE would have to step up and control.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 11:54 AM

is his assist numbers more a product of him looking to distribute first ..or is it a product of him handling the ball more often with the nuggets than nash does with the mavs..

in denver, nve was the guy that started their offense..he created for other players...it isn't like that here nearly as much for nash...dirk and fin can create their own shots and this limits the assists for nash

i think NVE's assist numbers were as much a result of the skills of the players around him.... nash's numbers were down because of the ability of other players on the court to create at any time

now, if Nellie could convince nve to look to pass first here and tone down the number of shots he takes, he could be a good backup PG. I don't think it's his game. Nothing i've seen in his past would make me think that it would be his game

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 11:58 AM

i know that NVE has had some good assist numbers from time to time. but he's never toned his shooting down. this is a must for him to fit into the mavs needs

TheKid · 06-25-2002, 01:28 PM

Well I think the one problem with that or atleast from what we've seen is he's asked to play in the game alot with Nash. Since they're both in and running all the time, Van Exel I think takes that as a free for all and starts to huck up shots. Now I'd wonder how his numbers look with the Mavs when he wasn't on the court with Nash, I'd be willing to bet he probably doesn't shoot as much or as often as when he's in with Nash and primarily getting the ball swung to him.

That's why I say that would be on Nellie to make sure NVE understands that. Now if we were to keep NVE, that wouldn't address our lack of defense at the point position but if NVE were to adapt, I think he could be a nice fit for the Mavs.

I'm not sure if that idea that he had the ball alot was a primary reason he had so many assists. If that was the case people like Jalen Rose and McGrady would also average 8-9 assists a game. They very rarely have an offensive possession that doesn't go through them. They manage to put the points up to match but Van Exel did that as well.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 01:36 PM

i don't quite buy the rose and mcgrady comparison.... i don't think they handled the ball nearly as much as NVE in denver...
but, we could argue that point without coming to a conclusion..so, i don't really want to.

From what i've seen out of NVE in his career..i don't think he's nearly as valuable as a player with the mavs as he is as a trade commodity. I don't think his game will suddenly change while in a mavs uniform and i don't think nellie will change as long as he has the option of playing NVE, nash, and fin at the same time.

the mavs need to tone down their use of "small ball"... it provides more defensive problems than what it's worth

DirkNash1341 · 06-25-2002, 01:48 PM

I agree 100% with Murph's assesment of NVE's assist numbers. That's an argument I've been using about other players for years, unfortunately, most people don't or won't agree with it. Despite that, I want Van Exel to stay in Dallas. Unless we can get something incredible in return, I definitely do not want to ditch him. I think he cna be very beneficial to this team.

Back to the subject of the post though--

The two that I want are Kandi and Nene.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 01:50 PM

in all likeliness, the mavs will have to give up something to get a piece that they need.

what it seems like is that some people are unwilling to give up a less significant piece of the puzzle in return for the more important piece.

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 01:55 PM

obviously...IF the mavs feel they can get Kandi in free agency, then no, you don't make that move trading nve for thomas and ward.

however, IF the mavs find out that they are unable to compete for Kandi in the free agency market, then they must address their interior defense. Then hell yest you pull the trigger on trading NVE for thomas and ward.

does it mean that your backup PG isn't as good as the previous one? yes, probably so. However, does it mean that you just got significantly better on the inside? Yes, it does.
And, if you want to address your PG needs, you'd still have the exception if you weren't happy with ward going into the season playing 10-15 minutes a game.

Drbio · 06-25-2002, 02:47 PM

I am REALLY interested in Nene Hilario. I can't wait to see what this kid can do in the NBA. The Mavs must have something brewing. The Manning cut was a surprise and they obviously have targets out there. I wouldn't be surprised to see NVE shopped soon. Real soon.

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 04:06 PM

But why CUT Manning? What does that position them to do? Don't they just eat his salary?

mick · 06-25-2002, 05:52 PM

<< i believe NVE's value to the mavs as a player is less than his value to the mavs in trade... >>

Here is an interest trade idea posted at RealGM. I think it needs to be tweaked a bit.
realgmtrade idea

David · 06-25-2002, 05:56 PM

<< Debate? Lose? >>

Yank? Chain?

mick · 06-25-2002, 06:13 PM

<< I am REALLY interested in Nene Hilario. I can't wait to see what this kid can do in the NBA. The Mavs must have something brewing. The Manning cut was a surprise and they obviously have targets out there. I wouldn't be surprised to see NVE shopped soon. Real soon. >>

<< But why CUT Manning? What does that position them to do? Don't they just eat his salary? >>

MavKiki and Drbio,
I know what you all mean, it doesn't make sense. Did he have some sort of roster bonus in his contract? Was the last year not guaranteed? Those are the only ideas I have come up with.

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 06:15 PM

<<

<< Debate? Lose? >>

Yank? Chain? >>

It was too easy, David. Got boring. Like a sleek cat swatting a mucousy hairball.

David · 06-25-2002, 06:34 PM

<<

<<

<< Debate? Lose? >>

Yank? Chain? >>

It was too easy, David. Got boring. Like a sleek cat swatting a mucousy hairball. >>

He never suspected a thing. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 06:43 PM

judging from some of your more idiotic comments in the past, there was no reason to think you were joking

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 06:45 PM

Joking?

<swat>

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 06:48 PM

i seriously doubt you're willing to make yourself look that stupid.. it's more believable that it wasn't on purpose

MavKikiNYC · 06-25-2002, 06:49 PM

Don't start with me, Fraulein, or I'll publically psychoanalyze your posts.