The Peter Vescey New York Deal - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Lvubun1 · 06-24-2002, 09:42 PM

Ok, lets just pretend for a second that Peter isn't a complete idiot who doesn't know anything about Basketball and is wrong 99% of the time, lets pretend for a sec that he is the Mel Kiper "Draft Expert" of trade rumors and his report has some truth to it.

NVE for Ward and Thomas do you do it, draft day is coming up, you never know. Knick fans are wetting their pants over the idea, but what about the Mavs.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 09:43 PM

Yes, i do it

Drbio · 06-24-2002, 09:45 PM

what is the Knicks draft position? Maybe we throw in the 55 for a higher pick. I might do it then if there are no other reasonable offers out there. But I do NOT like Ward in any form or fashion.

mfflpatrick · 06-24-2002, 09:56 PM

Absolutely not, only way I would go along with getting rid of Nick is if the Mavs could get a lottery pick (draft: nene, wilcox, amare) or in a trade for a quality big man. Kurt Thomas doesn't fall in that quality big man category.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 09:58 PM

hmm

Bayliss · 06-24-2002, 10:06 PM

I do not like this deal.

aexchange · 06-24-2002, 10:08 PM

not in a million years. people are overestimating the value of kurt thomas.

good lord, the man has played well in one half of a season.

and why would i want charlie ward? he's scrub material.

Drbio · 06-24-2002, 10:11 PM

What about Brian Grant and Eddie Jones? Couldn't NVE be packaged for those two or at least one of them? Better deal. I hate to trade with the Knicks. Look to Miami.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:14 PM

you can't get Jones for NVE

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:16 PM

Thomas has played well the past 4 years..as he's gotten more minutes, his numbers have gotten better year after year

Lvubun1 · 06-24-2002, 10:17 PM

Even though the Mavs are getting ripped off, it might be for the best. KT while not the end all, would be a improvement inside. And NVE is a New York type player, he will probably like being the guy in the biggest media market in the US a lot better then being a back-up in Dallas. And I'm sure Spike will be wearing his jersey by the break. Thanks Nick for your 3 months of service and for the being the biggest cheerleader/player since Jack Haley. Hopefully you won't drop 44 like you do against your other old teams. I will miss the high socks.

Drbio · 06-24-2002, 10:20 PM

I just don't like Ward though. What's his contract status?

Lvubun1 · 06-24-2002, 10:20 PM

Eddie Jones is overrated, he even fell off "The Sporting News" Top 50 list that came out eariler this year.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:21 PM

nve is being overrated a bit here

Ghost Face · 06-24-2002, 10:25 PM

If the Knicks throw in the #36 pick, or swap picks with the Mavs, I would make the deal if the right player is available in the draft. In that scenraio it would become a virtual 3 for 1 trade. This draft is short on star power but deep on good role players. If a certain player the Mavs could use slips, they could find a talented small forward (Tayhsaun Prince,Vincent Yarbrough) or a big guy like Sam Clancy or Dan Gadzuric. Even the freshman center out of Cal,Jamal Sampson, could be worthy of a look or the ever-present foreign developmental player.

If by losing Van Exel we receive a nice backup point guard, a veteran PF/C and extra size in the frontcourt(SF,PF or C) with the #36 pick, it would be pretty hard to turn down.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:25 PM

you might be able to get jones for NVE..that would be interesting..i think jones has suffered (along with grant) in pat riley's style of play

Ghost Face · 06-24-2002, 10:29 PM

<< I just don't like Ward though. What's his contract status? >>

Ward has 2 years remaining and Kurt Thomas has 3 years remaining, compared to NVE's 4. This may seem a little early, but Ward's healthy contact that expires in '04 would provide cap relief for the Mavs to chase some big names(Avery's deal expries that year also and Nash has a player option). The '04 offseason is loaded with as many big names as '03 and the Mavs would definately be ready to make some big moves if they had not yet reached their desired level of play.

David · 06-24-2002, 10:29 PM

I make that trade. I'm not sure how the salaries match. The idea of the 2nd round swap sounds good to me, also.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:33 PM

yeah..i would pull the trigger before i gave the knicks time to reconsider

Lvubun1 · 06-24-2002, 10:36 PM

The only thing that makes him overrated is his past and contract, plain skill wise he is top 10 at his position, his shooting is to be desired but 9 assist a game on a god-awful team means more then 45% shooting, so only getting Kurt Thomas and Chuck Ward is still a rip-off but not as big of one if his contract wasn't so scary and he didn't have a shaky past.

Bayliss · 06-24-2002, 10:36 PM

I'd rather have Artest, Croshere, etc than Thomas, Ward..

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:39 PM

the mavs don't need an overrated PG to backup nash.

and NVE is nowhere close to 45% shooting.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:41 PM

from NVE in a mavs uniform, you're going to get 3-4 assists, virtually no rebounds, poor defense, 40% shooting, 30-34% shooting from three..

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 10:47 PM

charlie ward can supply 3 assists and shoot just as poorly as NVE..play better defense. as a backup, NVE isn't nearly as desireable as he would be as a starter.

and, with NVE, it allows nellie the opportunity to go small often... if you get move NVE, you almost force nellie to actually think about putting in griffin, buckner or TAW instead of going small

Lvubun1 · 06-24-2002, 11:03 PM

Never said he shots 45%, I just said its 10x more difficult to avg. 9 assist per game on the Denver Nuggets then it is to shot 45%.

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 11:12 PM

noted

Murphy3 · 06-24-2002, 11:13 PM

however, i disagree... he should average a good deal of assists because he handled the ball so much for that team..it's not like here in dallas where dirk and fin take the ball and create their own shot

Lvubun1 · 06-24-2002, 11:22 PM

noted

Lvubun1 · 06-24-2002, 11:28 PM

But I disagree, all PGs handle the ball a lot, I doubt if NVE handled the ball more then any other PG, i don't think you could just stick any random PG in Denver give them the ball and have them avg 9 assist.

(trying to get to 100)

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 07:36 AM

NVE didn't have the players in denver that could take the ball and create their own shots...dirk and fin do that several times a game..this decreases the amount of assists there are to go around..the mavs aren't ranked high in assists as a team...which you would think they would considering how many points they score. however, it's not because they are not a good passing team. it's because individual players other than the point guard can create on their own.

in denver, nve didn't have that luxury. he had to create for his teammates.

unfortunately for NVE, his style isn't necessarily what the mavs need in a backup PG

Drbio · 06-25-2002, 08:07 AM

Noted.

Drbio · 06-25-2002, 08:07 AM

Post Padders.

kg_veteran · 06-25-2002, 09:19 AM

NVE for Jones would happen if we proposed it, and seemingly, we should propose it. Would be even better, though, if we could somehow bamboozle Miami into a Grant/Jones for NVE, etc package that didn't include the Big Three or Raef.

TheKid · 06-25-2002, 09:25 AM

Riley is aggressive but he's NOT stupid.... He wouldn't do that, and he likes Van Gundy (the assistant of Miami) would probably talk Riley into trying to find a way to put Fin in on that trade because he really likes him.

Drbio · 06-25-2002, 11:18 AM

No way I even consider it if Fin is involved.

madape · 06-25-2002, 11:44 AM

Nelson on Thomas:

Don Nelson seemed to confirm rumors that the Mavs may be in the market for the Knicks' Kurt Thomas. "One of the big mistakes we've made since I've been here was not signing Kurt Thomas, and that was more of a financial thing," Nelson told the Fort Worth Star Telegram. "We really like him as a player, and now he's proven out to be what I thought he was. We're looking for a guy like him. He's physical and rebounds, and when you lose a guy like that and you get nothing for him, it's just a void because then it takes you a period of years before you can replace that guy."

kg_veteran · 06-25-2002, 11:57 AM

<< Nelson on Thomas:

Don Nelson seemed to confirm rumors that the Mavs may be in the market for the Knicks' Kurt Thomas. "One of the big mistakes we've made since I've been here was not signing Kurt Thomas, and that was more of a financial thing," Nelson told the Fort Worth Star Telegram. "We really like him as a player, and now he's proven out to be what I thought he was. We're looking for a guy like him. He's physical and rebounds, and when you lose a guy like that and you get nothing for him, it's just a void because then it takes you a period of years before you can replace that guy." >>

Funny that Nelson was being questioned about Thomas because of the NY Post rumor which was generated indirectly by a certain "Dallas source." [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

In the same article, though, I found these revealing quotes from Nelson:

<< Big lineup

The architect of the small lineup, Don Nelson hopes to use a bigger lineup during most of next season.

That hope, however, hinges on the improvements of centers Shawn Bradley and Evan Eschmeyer.

"We need Bradley to do what he's doing, which is to work out all summer and to get back where he was a year ago," Nelson said. "We need Eschmeyer to be what we expected him to be, which he was for about three weeks until he got hurt."

Nelson wants to move Raef LaFrentz from center to power forward and Dirk Nowitzki from power forward to small forward. Nelson believes that should solve the team's rebounding woes.

The Mavericks wanted Eschmeyer to play on their summer-league team, but he's getting married July 20. >>

So it appears that Nelson is seriously looking at starting Nowitzki at SF next season. I personally like the idea a lot. I like it even better if we add Thomas, Clark, Olowokandi, or even Marshall to the mix to have more big man depth...

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 12:00 PM

the only thing i don't like about dirk at the 3 spot is that he's the best rebounder on the team..and this will negatively affect his rebounding in all likeliness..
it kinda depends upon who the mavs would "bring in" to play the 5

Murphy3 · 06-25-2002, 12:10 PM

I do like the way nellie is thinking
he looks as though he's willing to go big more often and address some of the issues i've been begging for him to address

kg_veteran · 06-25-2002, 02:42 PM

Dirk's rebounding won't be affected by playing the 3. He averaged 9 reb/game as a SF two years ago, and with his general improvement, added strength, etc., he should easily average around 10 reb/game no matter what position he's playing.

The real advantage to this move (without even making additions to the current roster) is that you'd have Bradley or Esch posting around 7 rebounds a game, and Raef posting his 7 rebounds a game as well. That's 24 rebounds or so just from the frontcourt starters, and then Nash and Finley will combine for 7-8. When you get 31-32 rebounds from the starters, all you need is another 12 rebounds or so from the bench to have a really good rebounding team. I can see Van Exel getting 2, Griffin getting 3-4, Najera getting 5, and Esch/Wang getting 3-4.

It's all about going away from the small ball and utilizing the talent you already have to maximize rebounding. Also, you still have plenty of nightmare matchups for the opposing team.

Dirk against any SF
Finley against most SG's
Nash against most PG's
Raef against a lot of PF's.
NVE coming off the bench.

Plenty of offense, much improved rebounding, and this is without adding any new players. Do that, and things really start to look bright...