Official: Dallas at New York preseason thread

[MavKikiNYC]

A couple of disappointments, a couple of small encouraging signs. I'd seen all I needed to by the end of Q3, and I NEVER leave early.

1) Harris's DNP--Disappointment. Went hoping to get a glimpse of Harris, and as is well documented here, he was out with a stomach flu.

2) Terry--On balance a disappointment. Went curious to see what Terry would bring, hoping it would add up to something encouraging. Can't say that it did. He didn't show much in the way of playmaking tonight, he had a couple of ill-advised passes that were TOs. He did show some ability to drive and penetrate, but didn't finish that well. After he heated up and found a rhythm, he did hit a couple of nice jumpers, but he definitely isn't a touch shooter on par with a Nash. But we all knew that already. On the plus side for Terry, he did make a couple of nice plays defensively to break up fast breaks, and get things started the other way, and he did seem to be applying a little more pressure to Marbury when he had the ball. He did get beat a few times off screens, however.

3) Mbenga--Encouraging signs. Wanted to get a look at Mbenga, and he did get some minutes. He wasn't quite what I'd expected physically--moves a little looser than I was envisioning, not the tightly-strung, quick-jumping Theo Ratliff-type I had in mind. But he moves well, and did challenge a lot of stuff defensively. Don't think he got his hands on the ball offensively, let along get a shot off. He looked a little lost on offense at times.

4) Dampier- A plus. I liked what I saw out of Dampier--post moves with purpose and results. He can score off the low blocks, and showed some nice move combos. Mavs were going to him a lot in Q1, and were going inside a lot. They shot 12-13 FTs in Q1, 8-8 FTs in Q2. They had only 2 3-point attempts in the first half. They really looked tonight to be emphasizing establsihing an inside game.

5) Calvin Booth--Mixed bag/disappointment. Was happy the Mavs re-acquired him, but he looks weaker than I'd remembered--better than LaF, but not on par with say...Wayne Cooper? Looks like he has lost some spring in his legs, but I will have to say that between him and Dampier and Mbenga, the basket looked to be better defended tonight. Often notcied two pairs of arms challenging shots at the rim, and occasionally three.

6) Dirk--tonight was just a workout for him. He was definitely looking to take the ballk to the basket tonight. I hate to say this, because....we've harped so long about having him take it to the basket. And he's definitely making the effort. But I see no finishing touch whatsoever from him. He put the ball on the floor a couple of times, beat KT easily, launched himself toward the rim, and.....thank God he got fouled. He just doesn't seem to have a good sense of how to get a shot off with a soft touch. Is he trying? Definitely. Is he learning? I'm not sure. Can that be learned? I don't know. I guess I'm a little skeptical about ultimate attainment if he's still learning at this point, and showing no more than he did a couple of years ago. He also rolled out that little sweeping hook tonight over TThomas, but it was almost like he was doing it on a dare. (It didn't go.) He has that beautiful outside shot. Is he ever going to be more than that?

7) Alan Henderson--looks like a pure rec-leaguer. Nothing left in his legs. Hope he isn't still weighting the bench down come January.

8) Entirely too much Sasser, Hood, Lopez tonight for my tastes. Thanks for nothing, Nellie. There were more flashes of potential shown in the 5-on-5 full-court match at halftime between 8-year-olds from Abbyssinian Baptist and Riverside Baptist churches (Riverside prevailed 8-4).

Bottom line: They showed some signs of where they're headed as a team. But they were missing too many parts tonight to give any clear óverall sense of what they could do. They have a lot of work to do to put it all together. But it seems pretty clear they're going to be playing a different brand of ball this year. How far that will take them remains the big question.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

quoting kiki : 8) Entirely too much Sasser, Hood, Lopez tonight for my tastes. Thanks for nothing, Nellie.

pretty much sums up my first time watching the new look mavs this year.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: JLEEHASMUCHGAME
quoting kiki : 8) Entirely too much Sasser, Hood, Lopez tonight for my tastes. Thanks for nothing, Nellie.

pretty much sums up my first time watching the new look mavs this year.

They combined for 71 minutes. Only 4 minutes less than M'Benga, Dampier and Terry combined- who I really (actually) wanted to see.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

nice analysis kiki, I just wanted to respond about dirk's touch when driving to the basket. I may be "reaching" here, but I feel like I'm noticing dirk getting more comfortable using his offhand more than in the past. Nearly everytime he drove to the basket today, he used is offhand, and to me, he looked pretty natural doing it. I know he has always used his left hand, but I don't feel he has ever been fully comfortable with it. That was about the only thing positive I can draw out of dirk from this game. Terry looked pretty good to me. He seems to be a shoot first guy trying to play the role of a pass first guy. I'm optimistic he'll figure it out as the season progresses.

[EricaLubarsky]

I'll have to go back and review tape on that one, Jlee. If true, that is another bright spot for this year's Mavs.

[dirno2000]

Off topic: Anyone know how much these guys get paid for being training camp fodder? Just curious.

[EricaLubarsky]

Patricia has

Derek Hood $620,046
Jason Sasser $695,046

but that is based on minimums and if they play throughout the whole year. I have no idea how long Hood will be here and it sounds like Sasser is already gone. Scott Williams was pro-rated and Patricia may have just guessed based on minimums.

[Shooter]

I am interested to see how Dirk being covered by Power Forwards will work out this season. Nellie said having Damp would cause this.. and from the reports I have heard tonight, that Dirk is was driving every posession, it sounds like it is true.


I wonder if having a bigger guy guarding him is affecting his shot at all... or maybe just his rhythm. Having a smaller guy guarding him helped Dirk's jumphot IMO because he could easily shoot over them. But obviously that prevented him from driving.

[The Miles]

I was entertained. It was just a preseason game with Knicks announcers selling their product to their fans, so you knew coming in that it would be biased. Their play by play guy is pretty good, but yeah, John Starks is not a natural announcer.

But as for the team, it was just nice seeing Dampier and Terry and exactly what they could do for us. Mbenga is very fun to watch.

[grndmstr_c]

Re: Dirk, he sat out with a stomach flu last night after getting back from what I'm sure was not a relaxing trip overseas. It would have been sort of freaky for him to be finishing well tonight.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

probably doesn't mean much, but brad davis said to watch for the field goal percentage of the knicks before the game. Well, the knicks shot 50.6% from the floor. by the way, I don't know if it was mentioned already, but what happened to josh? I feel like I only saw him during the first half.

[EricaLubarsky]

he sucked last game he played and that was before all this business too. Whoever said that Dirk always sucked in pre-season was wrong, but this game and the last game mean nothing. This team will either explode or will look a heck of a lot better in 3-4 weeks.

[MavsFanFinley]

Loss to Knicks a showcase for trio

By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News

NEW YORK – The Mavericks' injury binge has made it impossible to get the playing rotation in a groove. But it's been a blessing for three players.

Derek Hood, Jason Sasser and newly acquired Felipe Lopez know their situation during training camp. It would take a stunning chain of events for any of them to make the final roster. But that doesn't mean preseason games such as Sunday's 102-86 loss to New York aren't meaningful.

"You never know who's watching," Hood said.Hood and Sasser have seen extended playing time in the last three exhibitions because the Mavericks are low on healthy players. Lopez, a four-year NBA veteran who missed all of last season with a major knee injury, is trying to make a comeback.

"I was sitting at home in Miami when the phone rang," Lopez said. "When Don Nelson calls you, he has so much power. Only the president of the United States has more power than him."

That's the way it seems when you're a fringe NBA player fighting to earn a job. The coaches and general managers around the league (and in Europe) are your target audience. To be seen is the most important thing.

The 6-5 Lopez signed his contract less than an hour before the game, then played 13 minutes, getting three points and two assists. Sasser had 14 points and four rebounds, while Hood finished with eight points and four rebounds.

The Mavericks have 16 players with guaranteed contracts for only 15 spots. Doing the math is not hard. There's no room at the inn.

Lopez tested his surgically repaired left knee and was happy with the results. Nelson was just sorry he had to lean on him.

"It was a nightmare for the kid," Nelson said.

But it was unavoidable with all the injuries. And assistant coach Avery Johnson is happy players of this ilk are getting a chance.

"It doesn't matter whether they're getting per diem or flying commercial or on our 757," Johnson said. "They just wanted to be on the train."

Sasser is looking at Spain or Italy if things don't work out with the Mavericks. Hood played last season in Lyon, France. He likely probably will have several offers in Europe if he is released.

For now, they are just trying to capitalize on an opportunity.

Briefly:

They're falling like flies. On Sunday, rookie Devin Harris had to sit out with flu-like symptoms. He joined Michael Finley (hamstring), Marquis Daniels (left ankle), Dan Dickau (left ankle) and Jerry Stackhouse (groin) on the sideline. ... The Mavericks have their first day off of training camp today. ... The Benefactor and the Bachelor sat next to each other most of the game. Owner Mark Cuban took in the action with Chris Harrison, star of The Bachelor.

[EricaLubarsky]

what happened to josh? I feel like I only saw him during the first half.

He played the entire first quarter without coming out, which points to a hamstring problem because if he came out, it would tighten up and he'd be unable to play. He started sitting after the first quarter and never came back in. So in essence we were without Finley, Stackhouse, Daniels, Howard and Dickau for the final 3/4 of the game.

[Shooter]

Dirk did have a poor showing in preseason last year.

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

thanks erica, I was hoping to get a better feel for howard's game today, but I don't remember too much about his play. I would say josh not playing may have helped Jamal Crawford look like a bigger AI..

[dirk2003]

Howard has a similar injury that I had last season. The only way it healed was by resting it during the summer for about a month and playing only lightly. It seems that he had not allowed any time for it to heal over the summer with constant pickup games and so on...

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: Shooter
Dirk did have a poor showing in preseason last year.

Game 1- Utah (in Mexico)
16pts (5-12fg, 6-7ft), 6rebounds, 1assist in 19 minutes of play

Game 2- Magic at Mavericks
16pts (6-12fg, 4-4ft), 5reb, 2ast, 2blk, 1stl in 22 minutes of play

Game 3- New Orleans at Mavericks
16pts, (6-12fg, 2-3 3pters, 2-4ft), 8reb, 2blk, 1ast in 27 minutes of play

Game 4- Mavs @ Clippers
9pts, 5assists, 3reb in 28minutes of play

Game 5- Mavs @ Spurs
Nowitzki sat out

Game 6- Jazz @ Mavs
19pts (5-9fg, 8-9ft), 6reb, 2block, 2assist, 2steal in 29 minutes of play

Game 7- Mavs @ Kings
16pts (7-11fg, 2-2ft), 7reb, 2assists, in 28 minutes of play

[JLEEHASMUCHGAME]

Maybe I should have said Jamal looked like a smaller Jordan.. a bigger Iverson just doesn't sound like a compliment anymore. Regardless, the guy looked good, and about twice as fast as anyone who tried to guard him..

[Shooter]

Dirk missed 2 games with a sprained ankle not one... and you left out the FG stats for one game in which he was 3 of 9 against the Clippers in which he had 8 points, not 9. And our preseason record was 3-5.

Dirk obviously treats preseason like preseason. Considering his offseason obligations, I sure don't blame him.

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

Game 1- Utah (in Mexico)
16pts (5-12fg, 6-7ft), 6rebounds, 1assist in 19 minutes of play

Game 2- Magic at Mavericks
16pts (6-12fg, 4-4ft), 5reb, 2ast, 2blk, 1stl in 22 minutes of play

Game 3- New Orleans at Mavericks
16pts, (6-12fg, 2-3 3pters, 2-4ft), 8reb, 2blk, 1ast in 27 minutes of play

Game 4- Mavs @ Clippers
9pts, 5assists, 3reb in 28minutes of play

Game 5- Mavs @ Spurs
Nowitzki sat out

Game 6- Jazz @ Mavs
19pts (5-9fg, 8-9ft), 6reb, 2block, 2assist, 2steal in 29 minutes of play

Game 7- Mavs @ Kings
16pts (7-11fg, 2-2ft), 7reb, 2assists, in 28 minutes of play

[EricaLubarsky]

Dirk did have a poor showing in preseason last year.

he averaged 49.2% shooting overall, even though you pointed out that he had an off-night and you cannot blame Dirk for an ankle-sprain. Can you honestly say that Dirk had a poor showing?

Dirk obviously treats preseason like preseason

How is that obvious? On what are you basing that?

[Shooter]

he averaged 49.2% shooting overall, even though you pointed out that he had an off-night and you cannot blame Dirk for an ankle-sprain. Can you honestly say that Dirk had a poor showing?

When I saw Dirk play in the preseason last year I knew that he was going to have a relatively down season. So, yes I would call it a poor preseason by Dirk's standards.

How is that obvious? On what are you basing that?

Compare Dirk's preseason stats last year to Kobe Bryant's stats this preseason... that should illustrate it for you.

Do you have Dirk's stats from any preseasons other than last season, EL?

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: Shooter
Compare Dirk's preseason stats last year to Kobe Bryant's stats this preseason... that should illustrate it for you.

that is ridiculous.

[Shooter]

What is ridiculous? Have you been following Kobe's preseason? He played like 40 minutes in his first preseason game and took over 10 3 pointers. There is someone that is clearly treating preseason as if it was the playoffs. Not very bright if you ask me. I surely don't want Dirk doing that, especially after playing in Germany all summer for the national team.

[Murphy3]

6) Dirk--tonight was just a workout for him. He was definitely looking to take the ballk to the basket tonight. I hate to say this, because....we've harped so long about having him take it to the basket. And he's definitely making the effort. But I see no finishing touch whatsoever from him. He put the ball on the floor a couple of times, beat KT easily, launched himself toward the rim, and.....thank God he got fouled. He just doesn't seem to have a good sense of how to get a shot off with a soft touch. Is he trying? Definitely. Is he learning? I'm not sure. Can that be learned? I don't know. I guess I'm a little skeptical about ultimate attainment if he's still learning at this point, and showing no more than he did a couple of years ago. He also rolled out that little sweeping hook tonight over TThomas, but it was almost like he was doing it on a dare. (It didn't go.) He has that beautiful outside shot. Is he ever going to be more than that?

?
He has a great mid range shot...he has a solid turn around jumper and is already efficient on the high post. And yes, he has shown the ability to either score or get to the line off the dribble. I'll let you off the hook because it's common for many to overreact after a bad loss. But Lord, how quickly some forget...

[sike]

from the box and all reports this was just a waste of a game....no blocks in 27 minutes of Booth, 23 min of Dirk, 19 min of Damp, 19 of DJ, and 13 min of Bradley...three dimes from Terry, one steal from a starter....*sheesh*

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: Murphy3

?
He has a great mid range shot...he has a solid turn around jumper and is already efficient on the high post. And yes, he has shown the ability to either score or get to the line off the dribble. I'll let you off the hook because it's common for many to overreact after a bad loss. But Lord, how quickly some forget...

No overreaction. I didn't even consider the game a loss. It was more of an extra-mural scrimmage.

Nor is it a harsh criticism of Dirk, nor is it forgetting all the other stuff he brings to the table.

But the question remains: Does he have the ability to adjust his shot on drives to the hoop? For three years I've been watching (and talking about it) for this part of his game to evolve, but from what I saw last night, this part of his game remains the same.

Maybe it would have been like asking Kareem to be a great outside shooter too. And as long as Dirk converts FTs like he did last night, and as long as the fouls get called his way, then it's may be moot--aside from the fact that he will have fewer 3-point play opportunities.

But if the hook you're letting me off is Dirk's, it's probably just as well.

[Murphy3]

Perhaps your original post led me to believe that you were being even more critical than just not being able to adjust his shot on the drive.......If that was your lone intention, then I can agree. Dirk isn't great at adjusting his shot off of the dribble other than being able to switch from one hand to the other. But, at 7 foot, I don't necessarily expect that drastically change nor will I be disappointed if it does not.

[sike]

I might ask how many power forwards do adjust their shot well in mid air? that is usually something left to the guards and small forwards...
As long as Dirk either converts or gets to the line(which he does as well as almost anyone when he does drive) I really don't see his lack of ability to change shots "in-flight" as much concern at all.

[Shooter]

Complaining about deficiencies in Dirk's offensive game is like complaining about Cindy Crawford's mole.

[grndmstr_c]

I'll say this about Dirk's drives to the basket. Whether it's just the way he is or because of the types of drives he makes (which are unlike any other PF in the game) he does seem to finish with a different style than other marquee PF's in that he commonly doesn't gather himself to elevate but rather continues at pretty close to full speed horizontally, and also has in the past tended to shoot more two-handed shots from inside than I see other players do (though I agree with JLEE in that I feel he is moving more towards being able to finish with the off-hand). There's definitely some unorthodoxy to his inside scoring game, but the stats at 82games indicate that his efficiency nonetheless compares well to most of his peers, and as Sike said, that's really what matters most. Just to illustrate, here are the "close" fg% for some of the top PF's (and a couple other non-PF's):
Boozer - 63.9
TD - 62.5
Brand - 60.9
Dirk - 58.8
Randolph - 57.6
Yao - 57.3
KG - 56.7
Shaq - 56.3
Kobe - 56
Odom - 52.4
Pao - 51.8
KMart - 51.6
Amare - 48.8
TMac - 48.8
JO - 46

[EricaLubarsky]

What? No Antoine Walker?

[grndmstr_c]

Antoine's actually suprisingly decent when you just look at "close" fg% - 55.4% last year. What screws his efficiency is (among other things) his inability to draw fouls or convert when he does.

[MavKikiNYC]

By adjusting his shot, I mean absorb contact and have the ability to get a shot off where the ball still goes in. Bird could do it, McHale could do it. KMalone did it. JWorthy did it. Duncan does it, KG does it. I've seen JO'Neal do it; even far lesser players like Zach Randolph (current) and Cornbread Maxwell (past) were adept at it; and while it pains me to give him credit, I'd say this is something that SheWebb has done well, at least in the past. So, basically, this is a skill that Dirk's top peers, both contemporary and historical, can manage.

It's the ability to take contact, adjust the shot, and convert a 3-point play. Otherwise, the player becomes a sort of Shaq--inviting contact/fouls because defenders feel they have something to gain--namely, the chance to convert fouls into negative points, by forcing the offensive player to shoot two FTs to make the equivalent of a layup.

If the player can't convert both FTs, then the defender's strategy pays off.

If the offensive player can't make the shot, but is as good a FT-shooter as Dirk, then the defender's gamble doesn't pay off, but it doesn't cost them any points either.

But if the player can power-through, make the 2, AND hit the FT, then the defender's gamble costs HIS team.

Not trying to take a pot-shot at Dirk--he's one of the few players who I actually enjoy watching. But that's definitely something that you can expect from the top inside scorers, and if that's what we're demanding that Dirk be, then it's reasonable to assess how well he does it. So far, it looks like it's something that is still in development for him.

[Murphy3]

As long as he's efficient near the bucket as he has been the past 2-3 years, then that's good with me. But now I'd like to see more touches that result in either the drive or a post up.

Unfortunately, I don't think that he'll be able to answer your questions until he consistently DOES get more touches near the rim.

Perhaps you're right, but I do like the efficiency numbers near the bucket.

[grndmstr_c]

It's the ability to take contact, adjust the shot, and convert a 3-point play.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I've often wished somebody kept stats on and-1's so that I could track this very thing, and I share you impression that Dirk doesn't do this as often as, for example, TD. The thing I've never been confident enough about without stats to back it up is to what extent Dirk differs from some of the guys you mention in relative terms. Many of the guys you mention play(ed) inside more that Dirk so there are more opportunities for them to earn an and-1, and since they're rare events even for the best players it's really not the kind of thing that's easy to guage without keeping statistical records, ie., it's precisely the sort of event your brain can fool you on. Another caveat would be that I personally feel like I see old-fashioned three-point plays earned by big men off of offensive rebounds more than I do off of 1st shot opportunities. Again, since Dirk plays so much on the perimeter and collects fewer inside offensive boards than other big men, he simply might not as often be in the types of situations that most readily lead to and-1's. To be clear, in the absence of the right statistics to really do a study I don't have a strong opinion on the matter. My basic point is that I can think of several reasons why, even if the impression that he earns fewer and-1's is correct, it might be reflective of his style of play moreso than his ability to convert when he gets hit, per se.

[Shooter]

But that's definitely something that you can expect from the top inside scorers, and if that's what we're demanding that Dirk be

It doesn't seem clear to me that the majority is demanding this... even if it is the "vocal" majority on message boards.

Dirk's career most likely won't last long if he is looking to take physical punishment for 3 point plays constantly, especially through-out the regular season. But there seems to be a big difference in Dirk's agressiveness and taking contact in the playoffs. If this is indeed the case it is more than good enough for me.

The other thing that is dangerous is to compare Dirk to other great players in history, or even of today. He is unlike any player to ever play the game. If you make Dirk into the type of player that can take punishment inside you likely take away from other aspects of his game. As Dirk gets older though, and slowed down by age, you will likely see him bulk up physically and transition more into the type of player you are talking about.

[MavKikiNYC]

Originally posted by: Shooter

It doesn't seem clear to me that the majority is demanding this... even if it is the "vocal" majority on message boards.

Dirk's career most likely won't last long if he is looking to take physical punishment for 3 point plays constantly, especially through-out the regular season. But there seems to be a big difference in Dirk's agressiveness and taking contact in the playoffs. If this is indeed the case it is more than good enough for me.

The other thing that is dangerous is to compare Dirk to other great players in history, or even of today. He is unlike any player to ever play the game. If you make Dirk into the type of player that can take punishment inside you likely take away from other aspects of his game. As Dirk gets older though, and slowed down by age, you will likely see him bulk up physically and transition more into the type of player you are talking about.

1) For one thing, I think a majority of people DO want to see Dirk develop that way. Certainly, several of the more insightful posters in this forum have advocated that, and I have agreed with them. But whether it were a majority or not doesn't really alter the perspective from which the question is raised: from one of the people who HAS wanted to see this, now that we have it, is it going to work out?

2) Karl Malone was a freak, so I wouldn't Dirk expect to go for 20 years. But Bird, McHale, Worthy all lasted at least 10 years; Duncan and KG are well on their way to 10+-year careers, without any sign of being affected by their ability to score after contact.
And Dirk is a physically stronger player than KG. I guess the question becomes on what does one base the prognostication that players with strong inside games have abbreviated games?

3) I think you have one point backwards. As players get older, they tend to move outside and settle for jumpers, rather than go inside for the tough points, after they've lost hops. I don't see any reason to think Dirk would buck that natural trend.

4) Anyone can make the argument that you shouldn't compare Player X to any other player past or present, especially with superstars; that Any Player X is uniquely gifted in the history of the game, and therefore is an incomparable talent. Of course everyone else always ignores these types of pronouncements. Someone else said it here within the last couple of years---Dirk is like a Euro-version of Tom Chambers, or a New Milennium Edition Detleff Schrempf.

[Murphy3]

1) For one thing, I think a majority of people DO want to see Dirk develop that way. Certainly, several of the more insightful posters in this forum have advocated that, and I have agreed with them. But whether it were a majority or not doesn't really alter the perspective from which the question is raised: from one of the people who HAS wanted to see this, now that we have it, is it going to work out?

You're exactly right Kiki. Most do want to see Dirk move a bit more inside.

[sike]

I think most wise fans desire to see Dirk more in the middle because upon the (far too rare) occassions he does make his way down there, good things usually happen for this team. As for Kiki's thought that Dirk does not take contact well...I'm not sure I totally agree with this as a blanket statement. I'm sure that I agree with his needing to improve his ability to convert the "old fashioned three", but for as little as he gets down there (the post) it seems to me that de does fairly well...now, maybe not at the mid-air circus conversions like I mentioned before, but he has hit his fair share of five foot fade aways and turn arounds from the paint or just outside the paint while taking contact. I guess I just dont see this as an area needing much of Dirk's focus like passing or defending. Would improvement in this area be great? Yes. Should it be a main concern for this team? Not nearly as much as some others. But lets get him in the post more often and let him learn.