Rumor: Josh Howard to Toronto - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mac222b · 01-07-2009, 05:23 AM

It's all about whether Bargnani improves his strength and low post moves. He's got a good natural stroke so his shooting pct. should improve. At this stage he's better than former Mav Detlef Schrempf. We traded him away back in the day and he went on to become a 3 time all-star.

jthig32 · 01-07-2009, 08:14 AM

"Hoopsworld has learned"...

As if that hack has sources.

Give me a break.

Flacolaco · 01-07-2009, 08:21 AM

The "Nothing good happens after 2 am" rule also applies to trade rumor discussions.

kg_veteran · 01-07-2009, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

"Hoopsworld has learned"...

As if that hack has sources.

Give me a break.

If Bill Ingram said the sky was blue, I'd have to look to be sure.

muzak · 01-07-2009, 08:55 AM

That would not be getting back enough talent for J-Ho.

dalmations202 · 01-07-2009, 09:16 AM

That trade really doesn't make a lot of sense from a Mavs perspective, IMO.

JHo is an at least 1 time All-Star -- which puts his value at least a little above Bargnani's doesn't it? I mean I like AB, but I would think the value of JHo would be slightly higher at least.

Diop as a true 5 has more value than Parker, I would think since he is 33. Plus he expires with no guarantee you could resign him.

I guess Wright is just a throw in.

So Dallas is getting rid of Center depth for?

Then Toronto has a true Center, but two PF's who need lots of playing time each. Just my opinion, but that trade doesn't make sense for either team.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

just for the other side's perspective:
http://www.realgm.com/boards/viewtop...st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I think someone on the Raps site already said it best: "my fart can make more noise than this trade rumor"

Moving on...

dalmations202 · 01-07-2009, 09:36 AM

Just a FYI:

This makes more sense along those lines:
Successful Trade Scenario
Congratulations on a successful trade.

Trade ID #4911390

Dallas Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: -1.9 ppg, -1.9 rpg, and +1.1 apg.
Incoming Players
Andrea Bargnani
7-0 PF from Italy (Foreign)
11.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 27.1 minutes
Anthony Parker
6-6 SG / SF from Bradley
9.6 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.3 apg in 31.4 minutes
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
14.0 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.6 apg in 29.5 minutes
Outgoing Players
Brandon Bass
6-8 PF from Lousiana State
7.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 0.4 apg in 18.3 minutes
DeSagana Diop
7-0 PF from
1.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.4 apg in 13.3 minutes
Devean George
6-8 SF from Augsburg-MN
4.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.3 apg in 20.7 minutes
Jerry Stackhouse
6-6 SG / SF from North Carolina
4.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 15.6 minutes
Josh Howard
6-5 SG / SF from Wake Forrest
18.2 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 1.7 apg in 32.7 minutes

Toronto Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +1.9 ppg, +1.9 rpg, and -1.1 apg.
Incoming Players
Brandon Bass
6-8 PF from Lousiana State
7.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 0.4 apg in 18.3 minutes
DeSagana Diop
7-0 PF from
1.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.4 apg in 13.3 minutes
Devean George
6-8 SF from Augsburg-MN
4.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.3 apg in 20.7 minutes
Jerry Stackhouse
6-6 SG / SF from North Carolina
4.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 15.6 minutes
Josh Howard
6-5 SG / SF from Wake Forrest
18.2 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 1.7 apg in 32.7 minutes
Outgoing Players
Andrea Bargnani
7-0 PF from Italy (Foreign)
11.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 27.1 minutes
Anthony Parker
6-6 SG / SF from Bradley
9.6 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.3 apg in 31.4 minutes
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
14.0 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.6 apg in 29.5 minutes

Dallas takes the win now or next year attitude with O'Neal and Parker. Wright works instead of George as well (I just like Wright better and would prefer the Mavs keep him). So my scenario would require Georges approval.

O'Neal, Damp
Dirk, Bargnani, Singleton
Wright/George, Parker, Green, Williams
Parker, Terry, JJB
Kidd, JJB, Terry

Playoffs: O'Neal, Dirk, Parker, Wright, Kidd - with JJB, Terry, AB, and Damp off the bench. 9 solid.

And Toronto gets to run Calderon, JHo, Moon, Bosh, Diop -- which looks to be a very stout lineup. Bass plays the backup Big. Kopono the instant offense off the bench and zone buster. Stack has next year bought out.

This makes more sense from both sides to me, Plus the three players Dallas take back all expire by 2010.

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 09:39 AM

Kind of iffy on this trade rumor. It's definitely interesting and could be successful, just not the "sure thing" type of trade I was hoping for.

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Just a FYI:

This makes more sense along those lines:
Successful Trade Scenario
Congratulations on a successful trade.

Trade ID #4911390

Dallas Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: -1.9 ppg, -1.9 rpg, and +1.1 apg.
Incoming Players
Andrea Bargnani
7-0 PF from Italy (Foreign)
11.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 27.1 minutes
Anthony Parker
6-6 SG / SF from Bradley
9.6 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.3 apg in 31.4 minutes
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
14.0 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.6 apg in 29.5 minutes
Outgoing Players
Brandon Bass
6-8 PF from Lousiana State
7.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 0.4 apg in 18.3 minutes
DeSagana Diop
7-0 PF from
1.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.4 apg in 13.3 minutes
Devean George
6-8 SF from Augsburg-MN
4.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.3 apg in 20.7 minutes
Jerry Stackhouse
6-6 SG / SF from North Carolina
4.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 15.6 minutes
Josh Howard
6-5 SG / SF from Wake Forrest
18.2 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 1.7 apg in 32.7 minutes

Toronto Trade Breakdown
Change in Team Outlook: +1.9 ppg, +1.9 rpg, and -1.1 apg.
Incoming Players
Brandon Bass
6-8 PF from Lousiana State
7.6 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 0.4 apg in 18.3 minutes
DeSagana Diop
7-0 PF from
1.8 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 0.4 apg in 13.3 minutes
Devean George
6-8 SF from Augsburg-MN
4.3 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 0.3 apg in 20.7 minutes
Jerry Stackhouse
6-6 SG / SF from North Carolina
4.7 ppg, 1.7 rpg, 1.0 apg in 15.6 minutes
Josh Howard
6-5 SG / SF from Wake Forrest
18.2 ppg, 5.2 rpg, 1.7 apg in 32.7 minutes
Outgoing Players
Andrea Bargnani
7-0 PF from Italy (Foreign)
11.1 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 1.0 apg in 27.1 minutes
Anthony Parker
6-6 SG / SF from Bradley
9.6 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.3 apg in 31.4 minutes
Jermaine O'Neal
6-11 PF from Eau Claire (HS)
14.0 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 1.6 apg in 29.5 minutes

Dallas takes the win now or next year attitude with O'Neal and Parker. Wright works instead of George as well (I just like Wright better and would prefer the Mavs keep him). So my scenario would require Georges approval.

O'Neal, Damp
Dirk, Bargnani, Singleton
Wright/George, Parker, Green, Williams
Parker, Terry, JJB
Kidd, JJB, Terry

Playoffs: O'Neal, Dirk, Parker, Wright, Kidd - with JJB, Terry, AB, and Damp off the bench. 9 solid.

And Toronto gets to run Calderon, JHo, Moon, Bosh, Diop -- which looks to be a very stout lineup. Bass plays the backup Big. Kopono the instant offense off the bench and zone buster. Stack has next year bought out.

This makes more sense from both sides to me, Plus the three players Dallas take back all expire by 2010.

I like this proposal a lot more. I think we'd be contenders with that team.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2009, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I agree that Bass > Singleton but it's not a dramatic difference to where you're crippled if Bass leaves and Singleton has to step up.

Honestly, Singleton has a better all-around game. Bass can score more but that is all he does really better than James IMHO.

SMC0007 · 01-07-2009, 10:54 AM

If that deal is all we get for Jho we're F*#Ked. AB is so out of place because he has less post presence than Dirk and can't shoot near as well, much less defend. He does nothing as well as Dirk and yet is in the same mold. Pointless to have to big white non post playing shooters. Waste of a trade IMO.

darkwitzki · 01-07-2009, 10:57 AM

Include Jamario Moon or Jason Kapono on the package, i'll buy it..

Robillion · 01-07-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkwitzki

Include Jamario Moon or Jason Kapono on the package, i'll buy it..

I would only be happy with this trade if we were able to obtain one of these other players as well...preferably Kopono. Or if we can somehow add in a few other peices (Stack/Bass) for Oneal. Or if we can get a high draft pick at least... Otherwise it is very mediocre and the other team has much more chance of the deal working out for them than us. I dont like that.

Kidd Karma · 01-07-2009, 11:26 AM

This trade allows us to package Bass and Stack somewhere else, if AB is the backup 4. We can pick up a chip. Again O'Neal coming back would not be a bad option as he won't have to pick up the #1 role.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2009, 11:30 AM

I wonder if the FO is indeed making any Josh Howard suitor take Diop as well. That really is the only interesting thing about the rumor. Otherwise, no way the Mavs do this.

SMC0007 · 01-07-2009, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I wonder if the FO is indeed making any Josh Howard suitor take Diop as well. That really is the only interesting thing about the rumor. Otherwise, no way the Mavs do this.

Man don't start wondering WTF the FO is thinking that will only end up with more headscratching

If the FO is thinking already that we need to take another hit to get rid of Diop and contract then how could anyone have faith in their decisions? I mean it seems they just had to have him back, overpaid him and now it's been several months and he needs to be packaged to ship him. Ugly.

MavsFanFinley · 01-07-2009, 11:44 AM

Bill Ingram cannot be trusted but I'm kinda liking this deal. Damn him for throwing it out there.

Howard/Diop for Bargnani/Parker/Kapono works.

I can see the Mavs doing a deal like this. They get out of Diop's and Howard's contracts. Not to mention Howard's decisions on and off the court.

Quetzalcoatl · 01-07-2009, 11:44 AM

I don't like the trade at all. Howard and Diop have much more impact in the game than Parker (who is getting old) and Bargani (a bad copy of Dirk). We need more, and the trade would be nice if the could include O'Neal.

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 11:49 AM

Toronto fans seems to like this OTHER trade proposal better, and salaries match up:

Toronto Gets:
Josh Howard
Gana Diop
Shawne Williams
Jerry Stackhouse

Dallas Gets:
Jermaine O'Neal
Anthony Parker
2009 1st round pick.

Dallas Lineup:
O'Neal / Damp
Dirk / Bass
Parker / Singleton / Green
Wright / Terry / Green
Kidd / Barea

We finally get a guy who can score in the low post. We also get an outside shooter who can defend and combine that with Wright slashing, Kidd directing, and Dirk being Dirk and you have a very nice starting lineup. Not to mention our bench looks really good. I think fans could really get behind this team. You have everything you need to win a championship AND we get a 1st rounder

Toronto Lineup:

Diop / Voshkul
Bosh / Bargnani
Howard / Moon
Kopono / Stackhouse
Calderon / Solomon

They improve their team as well. They now have their coveted swingman in Howard and a defensive Center to play alongside Bosh. They also get to keep Bargnani while adding veteran grit in Stackhouse and a little youth in Williams.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 11:52 AM

Getting out of Howard's contract isn't saying much, saying you're getting out of dealing with Howard is the bigger deal.

The Toronto side of the deal is light so they know they'd have to ship out Kapono or Moon, they seem ready to add either part to that deal...surprising that they seem ready to ship out Kapono.

I'm hearing Parker and the talk of being an old guy and getting washed up....he's only on the books for a year or two. He's a rental, if he's good now and can solidify the position, why not? If he can be the best of Griff and Buck from the previous years, I think you'd take that in a heartbeat.

SMC0007, VERY good point about the FO and Diop!!

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 11:54 AM

We need a low-post scoring center who can D-up, a 2-way shooting guard, and a starting PF (if Josh is shipped) - anything else is a total waste of time/money and the LAST thing we need is another talented backup for Dirk! (which is all Andrea Bargnani will be at the end of the day...)

Moving on...

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Getting out of Howard's contract isn't saying much, saying you're getting out of dealing with Howard is the bigger deal.

The Toronto side of the deal is light so they know they'd have to ship out Kapono or Moon, they seem ready to add either part to that deal...surprising that they seem ready to ship out Kapono.

I'm hearing Parker and the talk of being an old guy and getting washed up....he's only on the books for a year or two. He's a rental, if he's good now and can solidify the position, why not? If he can be the best of Griff and Buck from the previous years, I think you'd take that in a heartbeat.

SMC0007, VERY good point about the FO and Diop!!

To add to what you've said, we really only have a 1-2 year window left with this team, anyhow. Parker is really a fantastic intangibles guy and has a beautiful outside shot.

Robillion · 01-07-2009, 11:58 AM

I have actually read Raps fans prefer that JO be placed in the deal and us just add in Bass/Stack. I am fully for that.

However, I am officially against the deal if the two "big names" coming back to us for Josh Howard are Anthony Parker and Andrea Bargnani. We DO need more than that. We are already known as the jump shooting team in the league. This would only make that more of a fact for us. We NEED some paint presence and Bargnani wouldnt give us that even if we play him at Center. Parker is going to shoot as well. JO needs to be in this deal and I think it is possible and conceivable for both teams.... c'mon dont disappoint me Mavs FO

grndmstr_c · 01-07-2009, 11:59 AM

Ingram's worthless, and this trade sucks (although a couple of the re-workings posted in this thread at least approach making some sense).

vRookie · 01-07-2009, 12:00 PM

That does sound like a deal our FO will do, because it creates more problems than it solves. I am not really feeling it but at this point, this team does need a shakeup.

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robillion

I have actually read Raps fans prefer that JO be placed in the deal and us just add in Bass/Stack. I am fully for that.

However, I am officially against the deal if the two "big names" coming back to us for Josh Howard are Anthony Parker and Andrea Bargnani. We DO need more than that. We are already known as the jump shooting team in the league. This would only make that more of a fact for us. We NEED some paint presence and Bargnani wouldnt give us that even if we play him at Center. Parker is going to shoot as well. JO needs to be in this deal and I think it is possible and conceivable for both teams.... c'mon dont disappoint me Mavs FO

Check out post # 60.

Eman · 01-07-2009, 12:01 PM

Guys, Bargnani is not our backup PF. He canl play small forward for us and at 7foot with 1.4 blocks a game, pf and center.

In Bargnani's last 5 games his line was 18.2 points, 6.2 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, shooting OVER 50% and 50% from 3!!!!!

Anthony Parker is would be a solid starting 2, hits the three, scores 10 ppg, plays great defense and can pass.

We trade Josh, Diop, and Wright for a 7 footer that can score and rebound as much as Josh, shoots better, and can play center at times (instead of Diop). We also get a starting 2 for a project 2 (wright) and get much better 3 point shooting!

Damp/Bargnani/Dirk
Dirk/Bass
Bargnani/Singleton
Parker/Jet/Green
Kidd/JJB

That is a much more solid lineup 1-5,solid backups too. And guys, Bargnani is 23!!! He will get better.

The rumor also said we get someone else to match salaries.

Finally, It's never bad to get people in with more quality character than the people you are shipping out.

I think it's a good trade.
Eric

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Dallas Lineup:
O'Neal / Damp
Dirk / Bass
Parker / Singleton / Green
Wright / Terry / Green
Kidd / Barea

We finally get a guy who can score in the low post. We also get an outside shooter who can defend and combine that with Wright slashing, Kidd directing, and Dirk being Dirk and you have a very nice starting lineup. Not to mention our bench looks really good. I think fans could really get behind this team. You have everything you need to win a championship.

I like this proposal a lot better, but I'm still not sure if this lineup can hang with the big dogs (I guess it depends on which JO we get)... If O'Neal can elevate his game next to Dirk and average 20 PPG while clamping down on defense, then we should be as good as anyone...

What's Parker looking like these days? I'm sure he can still hit the 3, but can he score in the paint? How's his defense?

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 12:02 PM

You know throwing JO out to Cuban and Donnie are going to make them take a HARD look at it. Someone is going to bite at that contract, that's a crapload of money coming off the books in the summer of 10. JO's injury concerns just worry the heck out of me. Damp becomes great insurance.

Problem is if you have Josh, Diop, Bass, Stack for JO and whatever...you're pretty much done dealing so you're going to need to be sure it's a deal you can run with for 1-2 years because most of the chips are gone at that point.

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I like this proposal a lot better, but I'm still not sure if this lineup can hang with the big dogs (I guess it depends on which JO we get)... If O'Neal can elevate his game next to Dirk and average 20 PPG while clamping down on defense, then we should be as good as anyone...

What's Parker looking like these days? I'm sure he can still hit the 3, but can he score in the paint? How's his defense?

I think that team has everything you need to hang with the big dogs and gives us a chance for the championship. At this point I don't even think we have a chance.

The last time I caught a Toronto game was in November and Parker looked good, then. He's not a shutdown defensive player but he's very solid and pesky. He's just a very smart player and he has a great shooting touch. He would be a great compliment to our current team.

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2009, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Man don't start wondering WTF the FO is thinking that will only end up with more headscratching

If the FO is thinking already that we need to take another hit to get rid of Diop and contract then how could anyone have faith in their decisions? I mean it seems they just had to have him back, overpaid him and now it's been several months and he needs to be packaged to ship him. Ugly.

Well, would you rather them keep Diop and that contract?

Diop's talent has regressed to a 3rd stringer. Sad.

And does anyone have faith in their decisions these days anyway? They really should have just gotten rid if Howard this summer after his string of screw-ups. Mark Cuban himself said Howard needs to make up for his mess by playing out of his mind. Not seeing it, Mark.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Dallas Lineup:
O'Neal / Damp
Dirk / Bass
Parker / Singleton / Green
Wright / Terry / Green
Kidd / Barea

We finally get a guy who can score in the low post. We also get an outside shooter who can defend and combine that with Wright slashing, Kidd directing, and Dirk being Dirk and you have a very nice starting lineup. Not to mention our bench looks really good. I think fans could really get behind this team. You have everything you need to win a championship AND we get a 1st rounder

The only thing that negatively catches my eye is the bench comment. The only way I see that is having a solid center coming off the bench. That is the only difference I see.

dalmations202 · 01-07-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

The only thing that negatively catches my eye is the bench comment. The only way I see that is having a solid center coming off the bench. That is the only difference I see.

Come playoff time, you aren't playing but 8-9 anyway.

O'Neal, Dirk, Parker, Wright, Kidd

Damp (plays with JO or Dirk), Terry (6th man), JJB (backup PG, etc).

I think it could work depending on JO's knees and attitude.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

The last time I caught a Toronto game was in November and Parker looked good, then. He's not a shutdown defensive player but he's very solid and pesky. He's just a very smart player and he has a great shooting touch. He would be a great compliment to our current team.

"Solid" and "pesky" would compliment Kidd nicely on the defensive end...

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

The only thing that negatively catches my eye is the bench comment. The only way I see that is having a solid center coming off the bench. That is the only difference I see.

What's not to like about that bench? As you said, Damp has been a solid starter this season and would be great coming off. Bass has unperformed this season but he's still Dirk's primary back-up. Singleton has played very well so far and deserves more minutes. Terry and Barea have both been superb.

It's essentially the same bench we have now, only it would be bolstered with Damp playing center instead of forcing Bass to. I think that's a very solid second string. Hopefully this would open up some more PT for Green as well.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

I think it could work depending on JO's knees and attitude.

That's asking a LOT, don't you think? Not so much on the attitude, I mean more on the knees.

jthig32 · 01-07-2009, 12:23 PM

I have to say, I would give serious consideration to that trade involving O'Neal. I'm not sure we'd have enough offensive firepower after that trade, but I think I'd be willing to roll the dice.

Unloading Diop's terrible contract and picking up a 2009 first rounder from a struggling team is awfully enticing.

I really doubt Toronto would consider that exact deal though.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

What's not to like about that bench? As you said, Damp has been a solid starter this season and would be great coming off. Bass has unperformed this season but he's still Dirk's primary back-up. Singleton has played very well so far and deserves more minutes. Terry and Barea have both been superb.

It's essentially the same bench we have now, only it would be bolstered with Damp playing center instead of forcing Bass to. I think that's a very solid second string. Hopefully this would open up some more PT for Green as well.

That's all I was wondering.

I didn't know if you meant Damp was the reasoning or if I was missing something else, just getting some clarification.

dalmations202 · 01-07-2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eman

Guys, Bargnani is not our backup PF. He canl play small forward for us and at 7foot with 1.4 blocks a game, pf and center.

In Bargnani's last 5 games his line was 18.2 points, 6.2 rebounds, 1.4 blocks, shooting OVER 50% and 50% from 3!!!!!

Anthony Parker is would be a solid starting 2, hits the three, scores 10 ppg, plays great defense and can pass.

We trade Josh, Diop, and Wright for a 7 footer that can score and rebound as much as Josh, shoots better, and can play center at times (instead of Diop). We also get a starting 2 for a project 2 (wright) and get much better 3 point shooting!

Damp/Bargnani/Dirk
Dirk/Bass
Bargnani/Singleton
Parker/Jet/Green
Kidd/JJB

That is a much more solid lineup 1-5,solid backups too. And guys, Bargnani is 23!!! He will get better.

The rumor also said we get someone else to match salaries.

Finally, It's never bad to get people in with more quality character than the people you are shipping out.

I think it's a good trade.
Eric

Bargnani and Dirk on the court together against many teams is asking for disaster. Two players without the quickness to keep up with SF's.

When we play Houston, who guards Artest? NO-Peja? etc.
Bargnani has some SF skills -- Dirk does as well -- but there is no way he plays D as a SF should.