Rumor: Josh Howard to Toronto - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I have to say, I would give serious consideration to that trade involving O'Neal. I'm not sure we'd have enough offensive firepower after that trade, but I think I'd be willing to roll the dice.

Unloading Diop's terrible contract and picking up a 2009 first rounder from a struggling team is awfully enticing.

I really doubt Toronto would consider that exact deal though.

That's what I was saying, if you're Cuban and Donnie, you're really taking a hard look at O'Neal. He's a big man who will play in the post and it's a LOT (!) of money coming off for the big summer.

I have the injury concern and the offense concern you have, but I think there is a strong case for the Josh + by -.

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

"Solid" and "pesky" would compliment Kidd nicely on the defensive end...

Just a note from ESPN,

"Parker has 8 steals over his last three games and is averaging a career high 1.5 steals per game this season" ... He also had his best game of the season last Sunday scoring 26 and shooting 13-16 from the field.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 12:28 PM

The biggest upside I see to this rumor is that Dallas is finally being discussed in trade rumors again (regardless of the source...)

It's fun to imagine!

Dirkenstien · 01-07-2009, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That's asking a LOT, don't you think? Not so much on the attitude, I mean more on the knees.

That is very true, there is definitely some risk involved with O'Neal's health but if it doesn't work out and we end up not winning it all we'll still have a 1st round pick this off-season and 20+ mil coming off the books for 2010 to fall back on.

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 12:32 PM

Rumor is Oneal is on the table. Soo I would see what I can do with that. its all hard to figure out, but if we could get rid of Josh and get Oneal and a 2 guard that would be great.

vRookie · 01-07-2009, 12:36 PM

Rumor has been shot down

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

As you regulars know, I never do this but this whole Dallas-Toronto thing that's floating around there this morning is creating reaction well beyond proportion.

So ...

The deal is not going to happen, was never going to happen, will never happen and you can all go back to your regularly-scheduled lives, as I will with a visit to Super Son's orthodontist and my doctor, exactly the way I was going to spend an off-day before I got sidetracked with this garbage.

I have no idea why the story was made up or out there in the first place but one guy I talked to around the league used the words "total" and "nonsense" in a conversation.

Think about it: Yes, Howard is good, although many will tell you his skills and impact are declining. Diop has perhaps the worst contract for value in the league with four years and about $25 million to run -- after this year - and a trade kicker that increases the value. This for what? A rebound or two, maybe a point or two a game? Come on, are you serious? Antoine Wright? If he gets another NBA contract after next year I'll be shocked.

For what? The best young big man on Toronto's roster and the most valuable expiring contract? Do you all think Bryan has lost his mind?

I have no idea who the writer is or what hoopsworld is or why this fiction got out there but it did and it's ridiculous. End of rant.

Well, sort of.

This is a prime example of why you should trust and know the sources of your news and speculation. And it's precisely why I don't traffic in fantasy.

See you later for the game.
.

Eman · 01-07-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

Bargnani and Dirk on the court together against many teams is asking for disaster. Two players without the quickness to keep up with SF's.

When we play Houston, who guards Artest? NO-Peja? etc.
Bargnani has some SF skills -- Dirk does as well -- but there is no way he plays D as a SF should.

18 and 6 in with 1.4 blocks in his last 5 games and he's only 23----that's bargnani. We would use Parker or George to guard the Artest/Peja. We can afford to put George in because if we put Bargnani at Center, we have another scorer and don't need George to score! Singleton could be thrown in as well.

Bargnani
dirk
George/Singleton
Parker
Kidd

We will still have guys that play defense. Besides, how many times does Josh Howard play when he is not mentally there on D? Bargnani has the same offensive numbers as Josh, he blocks shots and shoots a higher percentage.

The rumor stated that we would have to take another player from Toronto. I wonder who that would be and if it would help solve any of our problems?

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vRookie

Rumor has been shot down

Actually, this douche didn't shoot down the rumor AT ALL - seeing as how he never cited a source, he's speculating just like everyone else...

Obviously this paid journalist doesn't understand the definition of the word "rumor" (because his opinion is no more credible than those who started the rumor...)

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 12:54 PM

Realgm.com is reporting it too as a rumor

I think it would be a good trade...Parker is a good player...but I really want Bargnani, because I think under the right conditions he can develop into a really good player and I think he would do that here and it would be a steal. HOPE IT HAPPENS

vRookie · 01-07-2009, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Actually, this douche didn't shoot down the rumor AT ALL - seeing as how he never cited a source, he's speculating just like everyone else...

Obviously this paid journalist doesn't understand the definition of the word "rumor" (because his opinion is no more credible than those who started the rumor...)

He is the Raptors inside blogger. He is close with the team and sure has alot more credibility than the guy who started the rumor

Tokey41 · 01-07-2009, 12:56 PM

Not going to happen, Toronto's GM is a little something I like to call competent. If all they are getting for their two biggest expendable assets is Josh Howard then that team is dooming themselves. I doubt Oneal and Bargnani would be in a deal together.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vRookie

He is the Raptors inside blogger. He is close with the team and sure has alot more credibility than the guy who started the rumor

Yet he couldn't cite anyone who actually works for the Raptors to shoot this rumor down...

He might be close to the organization, but he's still stating an OPINION, just like everyone else (which is what rumors are all about, until proven otherwise...)

EDIT: Not that I think this deal will go down, but don't claim that a rumor has been shot down until someone with authority actually shoots it down...

rabbitproof · 01-07-2009, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

We need a low-post scoring center who can D-up, a 2-way shooting guard, and a starting PF (if Josh is shipped) - anything else is a total waste of time/money and the LAST thing we need is another talented backup for Dirk! (which is all Andrea Bargnani will be at the end of the day...)

Moving on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Toronto fans seems to like this OTHER trade proposal better, and salaries match up:

Toronto Gets:
Josh Howard
Gana Diop
Shawne Williams
Jerry Stackhouse

Dallas Gets:
Jermaine O'Neal
Anthony Parker
2009 1st round pick.

Dallas Lineup:
O'Neal / Damp
Dirk / Bass
Parker / Singleton / Green
Wright / Terry / Green
Kidd / Barea

We finally get a guy who can score in the low post. We also get an outside shooter who can defend and combine that with Wright slashing, Kidd directing, and Dirk being Dirk and you have a very nice starting lineup. Not to mention our bench looks really good. I think fans could really get behind this team. You have everything you need to win a championship AND we get a 1st rounder

Toronto Lineup:

Diop / Voshkul
Bosh / Bargnani
Howard / Moon
Kopono / Stackhouse
Calderon / Solomon

They improve their team as well. They now have their coveted swingman in Howard and a defensive Center to play alongside Bosh. They also get to keep Bargnani while adding veteran grit in Stackhouse and a little youth in Williams.

I do the JO version of the deal as well. An added bonus is about 42M in former Eastern All-Star contracts between JKidd and JO will be on the outs, which should definitely allow us to throw our hat in the ring for 2010, or if we prefer, 2009.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

That is very true, there is definitely some risk involved with O'Neal's health but if it doesn't work out and we end up not winning it all we'll still have a 1st round pick this off-season and 20+ mil coming off the books for 2010 to fall back on.

That's definitely the view you have to take. You're again going big or going home. You know Dallas would need to be hit with a home-run player offered for JO next year to walk away from the idea of letting 20+ coming off the books.

vRookie, just b/c he's an insider blogger doesn't mean he's secondary GM and knows what will happen.

Either way, if we can get Parker either way and it comes down to JO or AB, I'd take Jermaine but be scared short term.

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:07 PM

Can we put Bargnani in there instead of Parker??

because I would like to see

Oneal/Damp
Dirk/Bass/ Bargnani
Bargnani/Singleton / Green
Wright/Terry/Green
Kidd/JJ/Terry

Our line up would be Huge and yes our D would be Q but maybe Kidd, Damp, and Oneal could hold it down where Dirk and Bargnani struggle

vRookie · 01-07-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yet he couldn't cite anyone who actually works for the Raptors to shoot this rumor down...

He might be close to the organization, but he's still stating an OPINION, just like everyone else (which is what rumors are all about, until proven otherwise...)

EDIT: Not that I think this deal will go down, but don't claim that a rumor has been shot down until someone with authority actually shoots it down...

I am sure if the teams were talking about a deal, a guy who travels with the team and has connections might have heard something don't you think? Also Mike Fisher hasn't really reported anything either, which makes all this seems bogus.
But for all I know, this deal could go down but it doesn't really help Dallas

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Can we put Bargnani in there instead of Parker??

because I would like to see

Oneal/Damp
Dirk/Bass/ Bargnani
Bargnani/Singleton / Green
Wright/Terry/Green
Kidd/JJ/Terry

Our line up would be Huge and yes our D would be Q but maybe Kidd, Damp, and Oneal could hold it down where Dirk and Bargnani struggle

I can't see Toronto giving up BOTH AB and O'Neal. They're reluctant to give up Andrea because they feel the second he goes away he will blow up. That defense would be scary bad I think.

I still don't get why Toronto is ready to give up Jermaine so quickly.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

That's definitely the view you have to take. You're again going big or going home. You know Dallas would need to be hit with a home-run player offered for JO next year to walk away from the idea of letting 20+ coming off the books.

vRookie, just b/c he's an insider blogger doesn't mean he's secondary GM and knows what will happen.

Either way, if we can get Parker either way and it comes down to JO or AB, I'd take Jermaine but be scared short term.

Isn't it the same deal with Jason Kidd though?

Cuban said we were in "win-now mode" when the Kidd-Harris deal went down, but he never followed it up with another "win-now" move... Jermaine O'Neal could be the kind of GO BIG OR GO HOME move this team needs...

Dirk/Kidd/O'Neal either works or we blow it up...

Besides, Kidd only has a couple years left in him and Dirk's prime can only last so long - let's do something before the window completely closes on this team for good...

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vRookie

I am sure if the teams were talking about a deal, a guy who travels with the team and has connections might have heard something don't you think? Also Mike Fisher hasn't really reported anything either, which makes all this seems bogus.
But for all I know, this deal could go down but it doesn't really help Dallas

Couldn't BC (Bryan Colangelo) easily just lead him off the wrong course? It goes both ways...

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I can't see Toronto giving up BOTH AB and O'Neal. They're reluctant to give up Andrea because they feel the second he goes away he will blow up. That defense would be scary bad I think.

I still don't get why Toronto is ready to give up Jermaine so quickly.

Yes I agree our 2 forward positions would be pretty bad on D, but I would roll the dice on that because imagine 3 7 footer on the floor, 2 that can shoot 3's and then possibly Terry or whoever with Kidd..that would just be sick

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Isn't it the same deal with Jason Kidd though?

Cuban said we were in "win-now mode" when the Kidd-Harris deal went down, but he never followed it up with another "win-now" move... Jermaine O'Neal is exactly the kind of GO BIG OR GO HOME move this team needs...

Dirk/Kidd/O'Neal either works or we blow it up...

Besides, Kidd only has a couple years left in him and Dirk's prime can only last so long - let's do something before the window completely closes on this team for good...

Oh no doubt...I agree 100% with what you said. I was just stating the obvious that it's a go big or go home move. A move was still needed after the Kidd deal. You're either getting a SG or a C. Jermaine fits the bill, I just wish (being greedy) it was a more reliable/healthy person. That's the risk you have to take though.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Yes I agree our 2 forward positions would be pretty bad on D, but I would roll the dice on that because imagine 3 7 footer on the floor, 2 that can shoot 3's and then possibly Terry or whoever with Kidd..that would just be sick

AB would have to light it up to make up for the negatives on defense or it doesn't work properly. Right now, I don't think you can say we can count on that from Andrea. I don't want this to turn into Phoenix.

Kidd Karma · 01-07-2009, 01:16 PM

Would love to get O'Neal in the deal too. Can't see why Toronto doesn't do it. Allows Bosh the ability to roam the paint freely. Diop becomes the defensive force in front of Bosh. Howard is the slasher offsetting Kapono's long range jacks.

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Oh no doubt...I agree 100% with what you said. I was just stating the obvious that it's a go big or go home move. A move was still needed after the Kidd deal. You're either getting a SG or a C. Jermaine fits the bill, I just wish (being greedy) it was a more reliable/healthy person. That's the risk you have to take though.

I'd take an unhealthy Jermaine O'Neal over an apathetic Josh Howard right now... At least JO has some heart!

(but on the downside, Cuban would lose a smoking buddy... Wait, is that really a downside???)

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

AB would have to light it up to make up for the negatives on defense or it doesn't work properly. Right now, I don't think you can say we can count on that from Andrea. I don't want this to turn into Phoenix.

Could you imagine our defense actually getting WORSE???

No thanks...

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

AB would have to light it up to make up for the negatives on defense or it doesn't work properly. Right now, I don't think you can say we can count on that from Andrea. I don't want this to turn into Phoenix.

I think Bargnani would surprise a lot of people. The guy is young and has ways to go, but mann I am telling you he would be great. As long as we have Kidd, Wright, Dap playing good D then we would be good, plus Dirk and Bargnani are 7 feet so even if the play bad D they would bother people

Kidd Karma · 01-07-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Yes I agree our 2 forward positions would be pretty bad on D, but I would roll the dice on that because imagine 3 7 footer on the floor, 2 that can shoot 3's and then possibly Terry or whoever with Kidd..that would just be sick

A few years ago, Minny had KG, Griffin and Kandi playing primarily defense, their length forced a lot of teams to just heave 15-20 footers. I think if our guys are aggressive in defending their zone, it could be a way to mask our obvious deficiency in the man.

BGMaverick9 · 01-07-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Could you imagine our defense actually getting WORSE???

No thanks...

You can always get worse and get better...that's why there is 100% shooting, haha.

Is AB good with moving his feet?

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I think Bargnani would surprise a lot of people. The guy is young and has ways to go, but mann I am telling you he would be great. As long as we have Kidd, Wright, Dap playing good D then we would be good, plus Dirk and Bargnani are 7 feet so even if the play bad D they would bother people

I think you overrate the importance of being 7' tall - taking it to the hole against Dirk/Barnani would be like strolling through a lightly-wooded forest for the elite slashers of this league...

SMC0007 · 01-07-2009, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eman

18 and 6 in with 1.4 blocks in his last 5 games and he's only 23----that's bargnani. We would use Parker or George to guard the Artest/Peja. We can afford to put George in because if we put Bargnani at Center, we have another scorer and don't need George to score! Singleton could be thrown in as well.

Bargnani
dirk
George/Singleton
Parker
Kidd

We will still have guys that play defense. Besides, how many times does Josh Howard play when he is not mentally there on D? Bargnani has the same offensive numbers as Josh, he blocks shots and shoots a higher percentage.

The rumor stated that we would have to take another player from Toronto. I wonder who that would be and if it would help solve any of our problems?

UGH this lineup makes me ILL! Sorry but I have zero interest in Bargnani playing Center, that is laughable at best! I also have zero interest in D. George starting ever again. AB doesn't do one thing better than Dirk.

hamb · 01-07-2009, 01:43 PM

1000 times no.

bargnani is the biggest bust in the history of busts. and having him on this team to prepare for dirk's eventual retiring is stupid! when dirk does hang 'em up we need to be a traditional team. not try to get a lesser version of dirk

vRookie · 01-07-2009, 01:44 PM

I guess the draw for the Mavs in this deal is that they will sustain the Dirk-advantage against other teams even when he is resting because Bargniani can fill in for him. They also get a decent shooting guard. However, they will still have a hole to fill at SF and they lose backup for Damp (we all know how that hurt us last season in the playoffs). Not to mention our starting 5 will have even more problems scoring. That's why I don't like this deal

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I think you overrate the importance of being 7' tall - taking it to the hole against Dirk/Barnani would be like strolling through a lightly-wooded forest for the elite slashers of this league...

I mean I guess we can disagree but I think it would be worth it. The guy is 23 and can get a lot better in the right system. Our offense would be sick and our D would well hopefully be good enough. I just wouldnt pass on Bargnani if we can get him with Oneal. Look at the Lakers with Bynum, Gasol, and Odom we would be able to match with them blow for blow when we get to the WCF ; ) and then in the Finals Boston just doesnt have the length other then KG and Perkins.

AxdemxO · 01-07-2009, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamb

1000 times no.

bargnani is the biggest bust in the history of busts. and having him on this team to prepare for dirk's eventual retiring is stupid! when dirk does hang 'em up we need to be a traditional team. not try to get a lesser version of dirk

Ummm Olowakandi??? Kwame?? Milicic??? Ohh and yee Bargnani is 23 soo he has a few years to get it together and if not hes still a better player then the above at leats good of the bench.

hamb · 01-07-2009, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

Ummm Olowakandi??? Kwame?? Milicic??? Ohh and yee Bargnani is 23 soo he has a few years to get it together and if not hes still a better player then the above at leats good of the bench.

he's up there in that list. have you seen him play? don't look at stats. bargs has no defensive game. and this is the best he's ever looked in his whole career and he looks like a white diop. and thats not saying much. no thank you.

Janett_Reno · 01-07-2009, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I think you overrate the importance of being 7' tall - taking it to the hole against Dirk/Barnani would be like strolling through a lightly-wooded forest for the elite slashers of this league...

This made me smile as you said this nicely. You are so right.

darkwitzki · 01-07-2009, 01:56 PM

A white Diop ? lmao..

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-07-2009, 01:58 PM

I think some overrate Josh Howard.

Bargnani is 23, has tons of upside, 7 feet, can play the 3-5, and has Dirk-like skills. Josh is good, but good sfs are a dime a dozen in this league. Having a big with talent like Bargnani is rare. I'd do it in a minute.

I actually see Toronto not doing this. But hey, if it did happen, at least Howard can bash the American national anthem in a different country and smoke some good Canadian skunk.

ty · 01-07-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

The biggest upside I see to this rumor is that Dallas is finally being discussed in trade rumors again (regardless of the source...)

It's fun to imagine!

How will you feel when it doesn't happen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I actually see Toronto not doing this. But hey, if it did happen, at least Howard can bash the America national anthem in a different country and smoke some good Canadian skunk.

lol, excellent points

Underdog · 01-07-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ty

How will you feel when it doesn't happen?

I already know it won't happen - that's why it's fun to imagine!

(it's like buying a lotto ticket - you'll never win, but it's fun to fantasize about what you could do with the money...)