Fin Vs. Stack - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

GoMavsGo · 11-14-2004, 05:05 PM

Damn! Stack has been a awesome player the last 2 games. His stoke and shot looks awesome, his drives to the basket is what this team needs, and his defense with his steals and rebounding is suberb for a 2/3. on the other hand fin is never consistent, his ball handling is eh and he never takes it to the whole no more, though his leadership qualities are awesome. its a tuff call but right now im leaning towards stack. what do you guys think?

go mavs go

V · 11-14-2004, 05:09 PM

They both bring something different to the table ... The important thing is there should not be any 4 for 16 nights from either of them. Go with the hot hand.

orangedays · 11-14-2004, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: V
They both bring something different to the table ... The important thing is there should not be any 4 for 16 nights from either of them. Go with the hot hand.

I think V hit it right on the nail, we've got so much artillery at this point that there's no excuse why anyone should take more than 10 shots if they're not making half of them. If Fin's not hitting the bottom of the bucket, make the extra pass to Terry or Stack or Daniels or Howard or Dirk or...you get my point? Every announcer I've heard talking about the Mavs this year keeps drooling about how "They've got so many weapons" that it's starting to get old. But hey, it's better than "We should call them Allas cuz they have no D...hyuck hyuck".

FilthyFinMavs · 11-14-2004, 05:13 PM

Quote:

never consistent

HA! What is Stack then? If these TWO games determine what Stack will bring to this team then i'm on board with him but it's going to take me more than two games to determine what he will bring to this squad. Stack has never shot 50% from the field so I will assume that will go down back to his normal 40% shooting self. I'm starting to lean towards Stack on the defensive side of the ball. I don't think he's anything stellar but he definately can rack up some steals and get on a fast break. I'm leading towards Finley because I know what he can bring to the table. I'm not really sure what Stack will bring to us due to these last two games.

grndmstr_c · 11-14-2004, 05:41 PM

kneejerk

mavs413 · 11-14-2004, 05:51 PM

Finley not consistent? He's been one of the most consistent players in the whole league over the last 8 years.
They are both all-star level players and its a luxury to have two vets like them on the same roster. I agree with Nellie's plan, Finley as the #2 behind Dirk and Stackhouse as the #1 off the bench. There is no reason to change ANYTHING on this team right now. Let them get familiar with their roles, with each other, and most importantly to winning.

dude1394 · 11-14-2004, 05:53 PM

It may be a kneejerk but stack/finley is a valid question. Fin certainly doesn't stand out head and shoulders over stack, especially as stack seems to be thicker and a little tougher.

The Miles · 11-14-2004, 06:24 PM

I think Fin should have to earn his minutes when he comes back similiar to how Quis had to coming off his injury in the preseason. The ball simply moves better w/out Finley and it is not something new, it happens every year when he gets hurt. Now we have four guys that are all starter talent so there is no reason Fin should be handed his starting spot and big minutes when he returns.

He should have to earn them, and if he does great, but I don't think he is better for our team then what we have right now, I really don't. Dirk is a different player when Fin is gone, he becomes that leader and the team has responded. 3-0 on the road with Fin is no coincidnence.

DubOverdose · 11-14-2004, 06:25 PM

Finley brings more leadership than anyone on the team. He is needed.

The Miles · 11-14-2004, 06:29 PM

Dirk is showing more than enough leadership without Finley around to shadow him. Someone over at DB.com said that having Finley is like having Brett Favre backup Peyton Manning (Dirk) and share minutes. Not that Fin isn't good in his own right, but there is no need for him when you have a perfect fitting puzzle without him.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-14-2004, 06:39 PM

Okay, now there is knee jerking going around. How can you determine that this team is better without Finley when the teams we've faced have a combine record of 14-30? It's great we're beating these garbage teams but that doesn't necessarily translate into playoff success. The way I look at it is that we get even better when Fin comes back. This offense isn't being ran throug him so this isn't the same situation as the Chris Webber situation. Today we just gave up 100+ to the Wizards. Last week we just got slaughtered by the Orlando Magic. Things aren't great in Maverick land and even though we are 7-1 I hope we see a better team than the one that is currently playing.

4cwebb · 11-15-2004, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Miles
Dirk is showing more than enough leadership without Finley around to shadow him. Someone over at DB.com said that having Finley is like having Brett Favre backup Peyton Manning (Dirk) and share minutes. Not that Fin isn't good in his own right, but there is no need for him when you have a perfect fitting puzzle without him.

The only problem with this little scenario is that one of those qbs has a Super Bowl ring and a pattern of winning big games in the clutch...the other does not.

Neither can be said for Fin or Stack. But I do agree that if I had to pick one of the two players for this Mavs team, it would probably be Stackhouse due to his ability to get to the basket and, if nothing else, earn some free throws. The guy has always been able to penetrate, and if he can even hit 43% of his jumpers, he's murder on opposing defenses, especially ones that have three guys with their eyes on Dirk all the time. He doesn't bring the consistency from three that Fin brings, but with the Mavs new roster additions (i.e., Dampier), they shouldn't be relying on the three as much anyway.

The Miles · 11-14-2004, 06:44 PM

This is exactly like the Webber situation except that Finley is a better person with a better attitude. You think Finley is going to make us better defensively? Why even bring up the 113 that Washington scored today.

If Fin can earn his minutes great, but if not, why force it? I just don't undertand why you would want to force it.

FilthyFinMavs · 11-14-2004, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Miles
This is exactly like the Webber situation except that Finley is a better person with a better attitude. You think Finley is going to make us better defensively? Why even bring up the 113 that Washington scored today.

If Fin can earn his minutes great, but if not, why force it? I just don't undertand why you would want to force it.

Okay, who said they didn't want Fin to earn his minutes. He should. If he stinks Nellie takes him out. He's done that all season long I don't see why that would change. And no, this is nothing like the Webber situation. Webber was the go to guy for the Kings. Fin isn't.

Murphy3 · 11-14-2004, 07:42 PM

Obviously, consistent play out of Stack should lead to a reduction in minutes from Fin. Plus, it'll help to showcase Stack just in case the Mavs do see that they have a need at some point in the season. That being said, I don't see Fin's minutes dropping below 28 mpg. Plus, a reduction in minutes will hopefully lead to him staying healthy and being ready for the playoffs. That would be ideal in my opinion. However, the Mavs desperately need Fin's shooting touch, and he had shown more of a tendancy to take the ball to the rack the first few games of the year.

grndmstr_c · 11-14-2004, 06:52 PM

I don't agree with the intimation that the Mavs are better without Fin, but I do agree that he should have to earn his minutes when he comes back. We've got too much talent at the 2/3 for it to make sense to force feed him back into a rhythm like is usually done when he returns from injury. Hopefully, the winning will continue during his absence, and when he comes back the process of brining him along slowly will allow him to find a good role on the team. I do feel he was trying to be dominant on offense a bit more than would be ideal prior to his trip to the IL.

MeMavsFan · 11-14-2004, 07:58 PM

Like grandmastr said, I do feel that Fin was trying to do too much on the offensive end. I hope that he'll step back some when he returns.

More than just asking Fin or Stack, I'm thinking more of who should be the second option. Ideally, I would LIKE Stack to fill this role. Stack is better at getting to the goal and much better at creating his own shot off the dribble. His dribbling ability also allows him to create more for other players than Fin does. And, because Fin doesn't create as well for himself, there have to be more plays run for him which makes him more of the 1st option which is a role that should only be filled by Dirk on this team. HOWEVER, over the years, I've seen more of Fin so I trust him more at this point. I would not be prone to hand the position over to Stack after two games, but if he continues this type of play, he is definitely better suited.

I don't really say, Fin or Stack because I think Marquis can sit. He decision making really frustrates me. He does some really great things but sometimes I cringe when he has the ball.

Ideally, I would like to Terry, Fin, Stack, Dirk, and Damp at the end of games. Run the offense through Dirk with Stack as the second option. Fin, I think, could actually really thrive in this situation because he is such a great spot up shooter, with Dirk mainly and Stack creating Fin would get a lot of open jumpers and we all know he can knock those down.

dude1394 · 11-14-2004, 08:03 PM

Fin had already started to chafe a littel bit at reduced minutes. You can see it. With howard not hitting the broad side of a barn, it makes it easier to play fin/stack. But when howard is acceptable, he's tough to keep off the court, then fin/stack pretty directly compete for minutes. Not to mention 'quis/terry...

MeMavsFan · 11-14-2004, 08:16 PM

I think nellie's best bet is to forget the past completely and give minutes on a game to game basis. Hopefully, 2 out of the 4 will have it going every night. Nellie will have to play those two or I fear there will be some serious chemistry issues down the road.

LRB · 11-14-2004, 09:23 PM

Fin is a head and shoulders better shooter than Stack and is a much better rebounder. Stack is a better ball handler, penetrator, and defender. I don't think that it is an either one or the other, we need both. I'm totally on board with bringing Fin back slowly when he returns. I also think that he should have to earn more PT through his play. However, The Mavs need Fin's shooting and rebounding to make a push in the playoffs. Bottom line is that the Mavs are a much better topic with Fin and Stack and in fact with Howard and Daniels as well.

fin4life · 11-14-2004, 09:23 PM

Of course, I say Finley hands down. He has proven to be a leader... but that isnt the reason. He is a much better shooter than stackhouse, and the last two games dont mean that stack will be like that everynight. In the 5 games that stack and finley played together.... stackhouse never outscored finley. And to say that Finley is inconsistant is just plain stupid. Stackhouse hadnt had 20 points yet until this weekend... yet Finley is inconsistant. stupid. Finley takes less shots than stackhouse and shoots a better percentage througout their careers.... yet people are acting as if it the opposite.

I cant deny that stackhouse is a better defender, and can get to the basket better... But we can use that off the bench. Stackhouse is a great guy to have on a team, but he has always been a loser in the NBA when having a leading role. He had one year that he played a team game in Detroit (but still shot 40% and got traded the next year), but that is it. He is the sixth man and he has accepted that. Finley is our starter and that is the way it needs to be.

fin4life · 11-14-2004, 09:27 PM

I forgot to mention, stack turns it over like crazy

dude1394 · 11-14-2004, 09:58 PM

I also think that having a solid, very solid spot up shooter will be pretty important this year as dirk will see the ball more and get more double-teams. Part of the problem with jho/'quis is thier outside shot is not so great and having dirk throw it out to them get's problemmatic. Devin has already show a better stroke from 3-ball land than jho or 'quis. Or stack for that matter until lately.

kg_veteran · 11-14-2004, 10:46 PM

The idea of Fin earning his minutes when he gets back is all well and good, and makes some sense, but doesn't sound too much like reality to me. Fin will start as soon as he's healthy and back, and Nellie may keep his minutes down first, but it will be to help Fin ease his way back into the rotation, not because Fin is "earning" the time.

kg_veteran · 11-14-2004, 10:49 PM

Miles - I don't really get the vibe you do when it comes to Dirk. I feel like Dirk was playing pretty darn well before Fin went out. And I think everyone has known since training camp began whose team this was now.

Max Power · 11-14-2004, 11:14 PM

Obviously I am going to prefer Finley but it is for a reason not listed here yet. I think Stack is a ticking time bomb that will go off sometime during his tenure as a Mav (unless we happen to get rid of him first). I don't think Stack will EVER be happy being the 2nd option on a team so either Stack or Dirk will have to go.

orangedays · 11-14-2004, 11:29 PM

A little off topic, but absolute props to FilthyFinMavs and fin4life for defending their namesake with such aplomb.

I think Fin is a key component of this team, so let's not bash the guy. I still say we go with the hot hand regardless of what happens, we have that luxury now. I can't imagine us having more than 1-2 games where not a single player puts up at least 25 pts. Ain't that just plain sweet?

sike · 11-15-2004, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Max Power
Obviously I am going to prefer Finley but it is for a reason not listed here yet. I think Stack is a ticking time bomb that will go off sometime during his tenure as a Mav (unless we happen to get rid of him first). I don't think Stack will EVER be happy being the 2nd option on a team so either Stack or Dirk will have to go.

this opinion must be based on his preMavs days, because everything he has said and everything we've heard is that Stack is ready to win! And if his minutes stay healthy, I think he'll have no problem at all being a second or third option on this team. Stack is not so foolish, or self improtant, to think himself worthy of a higher rank than Dirk and has basically said as much in all his praising of the "Diggler's" great talent.

I also agree that neither Stack or Fin are players who stay hot. They both, throughout their careers have been streak guys, having the ability to carry a team for several nights and then diappering the next couple. Fin had begun to show this in his last two games after his hot start (a combined 7-30 from the field), and we all know that Stack jumper that was looked so sweet the last two games will eventually work its way back to somewhere around 41-42%.

All in all, they are two great vets who both need minutes. Am I the only one who does not like this idea thats being floated around that says, "Nellie should not have a set lineup, just ride the hot hand" ? I understand riding the hot hand in games, but if you are constantly changing your starting line to accomodate the "hot guy" you never will fully develop continuity. The guys need to know about how many minutes they can get...all this talk of guys needing "rhythm" and trying to find their "rhythm out there" is not just make believe, and continuity of lineups and minute division helps the guys develop continuity.

Quote:

Fuzz: "Anyway, if I may assume the role of stat geek for a moment"...

you don't need to ask, geek status is always assumed for you, PFuzz. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Murphy3 · 11-14-2004, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kg_veteran
The idea of Fin earning his minutes when he gets back is all well and good, and makes some sense, but doesn't sound too much like reality to me. Fin will start as soon as he's healthy and back, and Nellie may keep his minutes down first, but it will be to help Fin ease his way back into the rotation, not because Fin is "earning" the time.

I agree with this. Fin isn't going to lose his starting job anytime soon. But, I would like to see the other swing men play well enough to limit Fin's minutes purely to keep him fresher for the playoffs.

As for Dirk's numbers being up with Fin out of the lineup....Dirk putting up huge numbers isn't anything new and isn't something that only occurs when Fin's out of the lineup. Does playoff basketball ring a bell?

The Miles · 11-14-2004, 10:45 PM

Something of a mental nature happens to Dirk when he is with Fin on the court. It is like the big brother/little brother thing in that Dirk isn't the Dirk we all know he can be when Fin is out there. It has been proven that when Fin is out that Dirk steps it up to a level that he only sees consistently when Fin is hurt.

It is not a knock on Fin, but I see much more chemistry between Stack (gasp, the guy has stepped up) and Dirk then I see between Dirk and Fin. It is like Dirk is the #1 guy and everyone knows it when Fin is out, and Stack becomes the #2 guy. But when Fin is around it seems like he is the #1 guy and Dirk is pushed to #2.

Not so much statistically, but emotionally. This offense has been running so well with Dirk as the guy and the reason is obvious to me. Dirk respects Fin so much that he doesn't want to step on his toes when he is around and you see an 85% Dirk. But when Fin is gone you get the full Dirk and IMO, if we want to win the title, Dirk has to be the full Dirk and the others have to fall in order.

I hope it doesn't come off as me dogging Finley, it is not like he is selfish. It just doesn't work as well IMO.

Psychedelic Fuzz · 11-15-2004, 12:34 AM

neither player is what I'd call "consistent."

Someone needed to step up and score in fin's absence. Stackhouse did. big deal. You're nuts if you think Stack will continue to be this hot.

Anyway, if I may assume the role of stat geek for a moment...
the +/- is almost identical, as are many other stats. they average almost the same amount of minutes, so to get an accurate reading let's get out the much reviled per 48's.

stack has the edge only in assists and steals,

which means fin has the edge in: points, boards, blocks, to's, fouls, fg%, 3pt% and ft%.

MavsFanFinley · 11-15-2004, 01:37 AM

I have a hard time believing this is even a debate. Especially after watching Fin's start to the season and seeing the results of what we wanted from him like driving to the basket, hitting his 3 pointers, rebounding, and playing defense. I guess I shouldn't be surprised as people have wanted him benched or traded for one reason or another the last few years.

Through the first 3 games Fin was averaging:

32min, 57%, 55%, 80%, 20pts, 5rbs, 3as, 2.6tos

Then came the ugly shooting in the GS game, but through 4 games, he was averaging:

35min, 45%, 41%, 91%, 19pts, 5.5rbs, 2.7as, .75stls, 2.25tos

Despite the turnovers, pretty consistent with his numbers the previous years.

I was going to leave out the game he left injured because it was incomplete and we've done that in the past when debating like this. But, I thought throw it out there to compare with Stack's numbers in the end.

Through 5 games Fin averaged:

32min, 43%, 44%, 87%, 17pts, 4.6rbs, 2.4as, .60stls, .80blks, 1.8tos (15 shots per game)

****

Through the first 4 games with Fin healhty, Stack was averaging:

25min, 35%, 16%, 84%, 10pts, 2.5rbs, 1.5as, .75stls, 1.5tos

Through 5 games (including the game Fin left injured) Stack was averaging:

27min, 33%, 11%, 77%, 10pts, 2.8rbs, 1.8as, .8stls, 2tos (10 shots per game off the bench)

Through the 4 games (note this includes game Fin left) in Fin's absence, Stack was averaging:

35min, 47%, 40%, 83%, 20pts, 3rbs, 3.2as, 1.25stls, 2.5tos

Through 3 games without Fin at all, Stack averaged:

35min, 53%, 50%, 94%, 23pts, 2.6rbs, 3.3as, 1.3stls, 2tos (14 shots per game off the bench)

Stack's 8 game total:

30min, 43%, 33%, 84%, 15pts, 3rbs, 2.3as, 1stl, .12blks, 2tos (11 shots per game)

EricaLubarsky · 11-15-2004, 01:57 AM

It's hard to judge. Is Stack riding a bubble? Yeah, but stastically he was in a slump for the first few games. While Fin was healthy, he (fin)was on fire and playing better than career numbers. While Finley's been injured, Stackhouse has not only gotten back his verve, but has been clutch and has kept the offense moving while the team was in a slump. Without Stack we certainly would have gone 1-3 on the road trip.

Ultimately, the announcers confirmed today that Finley did indeed have a grade 2 sprain, and when Finley comes back in a couple of weeks, this will be a non-issue. It will be nice to have both. I just hope they can co-exist.

sike · 11-15-2004, 12:01 PM

reality: Nellie is loyal to a fault when its one of "his kids"(the big three from last year), he would see benching of Finley as turnning his back on one of his guys who has paid his dues and earned his loyalty.

MavsFanFinley · 11-15-2004, 12:17 PM

What has Stackhouse done to earn the starting nod over Finley? If anything, he's dominating the ball more than Finley offensively (something Fin was getting a knock for by some). He's barely ahead of Finley with assists (.8) and steals (.55).

sike · 11-15-2004, 12:21 PM

Stack hype: two good/great games for this team......
Finley hype: several good years for this team......

sike · 11-15-2004, 02:53 PM

I know its tired, but NVE's days in dallas proves that sometimes a snake when focused on striking the opponant can be a pretty decent weapon.

Max Power · 11-15-2004, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
I know its tired, but NVE's days in dallas proves that sometimes a snake when focused on striking the opponant can be a pretty decent weapon.

Sure NVE was great for the Mavs but would he have been happy last year with the team losing? And what about the fact that NVE wouldn't get his minutes or his shots - would he still be a good teammate? I don't think so. We got rid of NVE at the EXACT right moment.

sike · 11-15-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Max Power

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
I know its tired, but NVE's days in dallas proves that sometimes a snake when focused on striking the opponant can be a pretty decent weapon.

Sure NVE was great for the Mavs but would he have been happy last year with the team losing? And what about the fact that NVE wouldn't get his minutes or his shots - would he still be a good teammate? I don't think so. We got rid of NVE at the EXACT right moment.

pure speculation Maxy, all I'm willing to look at is what actually DID happen. And what did happen was a former bad egg got so fed up with losing that he was willing to take a lesser spot and lesser glory to taste winning...and I don't see any reason that cannot happen here. And I don't think most would put Stack in that same NVE type level of "rotton apple potential" status.

Max Power · 11-15-2004, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
pure speculation Maxy, all I'm willing to look at is what actually DID happen.

If all you are willing to look at is what actually DID happen then the facts are Stack wore his welcome out of two cities within a very short period of time and both franchises were glad to get rid of him. It is pure speculation to hope that Stack will change his attitude.