'Walker returns to Boston' Mavs/Celts GAMEDAY Thread

[MightyToine]

Walker Returns



Former Boston star Walker returns

By HOWARD ULMAN, AP Sports Writer
December 16, 2003
BOSTON (AP) -- If Antoine Walker is booed in Boston, he'll be used to it. Even when he played for the Celtics, home fans hooted at his off-target shots.

``I'm not really worried about it,'' he said on Tuesday as he prepared for his homecoming game. ``I went through some boo years up there when we weren't playing well.''

With the Celtics struggling, fans are unlikely to greet Walker warmly when he returns Wednesday night with Midwest Division leader Dallas.

``We're faced with another obstacle,'' Celtics guard Paul Pierce said. ``Hopefully, things will work out.''

The first obstacle was the five-player trade Oct. 20 that sent Walker to the Mavericks. The latest is Monday's six-player swap that brought Ricky Davis from Cleveland and cost the Celtics reliable veterans Eric Williams and Tony Battie, who were prized by coach Jim O'Brien.

The players the Celtics acquired for Walker and guard Tony Delk haven't done much.

Raef LaFrentz played 17 of the team's 25 games and is expected to miss the rest of the season after knee surgery Monday. Chris Mills isn't likely to return either. Both are on the injured list.

Only swingman Jiri Welsch has helped. He won the starting forward job, averaging 6.2 points per game. But he could lose his starting job to Davis.

Walker is averaging 18.2 points per game and he scored 27 in Monday night's win over Toronto. He leads Dallas with 10 rebounds per game and is second with an average of 4.7 assists.

Walker even took a shot at Danny Ainge, Boston's executive director of basketball operations, who made the trades. He called Ainge a ``snake'' in a Boston Globe interview last week and said, ``I think he was really trying to set my career back a little bit.''

Ainge backed off any confrontation.

``I'm not going to get into a squabble with Antoine Walker,'' he said. ``I knew that this (trade) might be a step backward.''

Ainge is planning for the long term. He prefers an up-tempo attack and thought Walker handled the ball too much and took too many 3-pointers that clanged off the rim at critical moments.

So Ainge traded his star and captain, who averaged 20.8 points in seven seasons with Boston.

Dallas coach Don Nelson advised Walker to ``let that go'' and on Tuesday, the player complied.

``It's over with for me,'' he said. ``I have nothing else further to say about Danny or about that situation. I wish those guys luck.''

The Celtics reached the Eastern Conference finals in 2002 and the semifinals last season, but only four players remain from last year's squad.

Boston is 12-13 after Monday's loss to Minnesota ended a five-game winning streak. Meanwhile, the Mavericks have the third best record in the tough Western Conference.

``My goals are much different than their goals,'' Walker said. ``What we're trying to establish and accomplish here is much different than what they're trying to do up there, obviously.''

Walker shrugged off the homecoming.

``It's the same like every other game,'' he said. ``I want to play well against everybody.''

But he's eager to see his former teammates, although three of them left Monday for Cleveland.

``It's always nice to go back and play against your old teammates,'' he said. ``Man, there ain't too many of them left now.''

Pierce, Boston's lone star after Walker left, is one of them.

``I can't wait for it, to see him. He's having a great year so far for the Mavericks,'' Pierce said. ``I don't know if they'd be where they are without him.''

[MavsFanFinley]

Mavs roll all over them and win by 17. I hope Walker has a good 'in your face' game against his former team.

Finley and Bradley are out for this one and against the Timberwolves as well.

[NBAGnome]

Josh Howard plays great defense and single handedly destroys the Celtics with a 5x10 of 32 points, 16 rebounds, 10 assists, 11 steals, and 10 blocks. Then silences the booing Boston crowd by destroying them with his laser vision.

[EricaLubarsky]

``It's always nice to go back and play against your old teammates,'' he said. ``Man, there ain't too many of them left now.''

Its funny- at the end of last season I actually got a whiff of chemistry from the Boston team. I dont smell it anymore. On the shifting winds I think there is a coaching change coming as well.

Antoine Walker seems to have tough skin and he also seems to play well when emotional which is the opposite of Jamison who wants to make people happy. I expect the Mavs to have fun while the fickle fans in Boston boo Walker and the true fans boo O'brien. This is a recipe for success for Both Antoines.

Howard will chip in for 5points 6 rebounds
Nash will have 18
Nowitzki will have about 20

Triple double time for Walker?

DAL 118
BOS 101

[Simon2]

Mavs win big 120-100. Celtics with their new people won't be able to stop the Mavs. Don't see how Mavs can lose this game. Walker plays big. He'll probably get a triple double.

Attempted suicide by Celtic fans: 10
Ainge hate mail: 17,250
Boston fans saying that the trade was good: 2 (Ainge and some clueless fan)

[dirno2000]

I figured this would be 30 point blowout. After all, we usually blow the Celts out and that was before they gave us one of their top two players.

I think the trade changed that. Immediately after a trade, even spare teams play with newfound energy and the crowd, eager with anticipation, can have a real effect on the game. I remember how energized the Reunion crowd was for Fin's 1st game (if I remember correctly, we upset Seattle).

Mavs win but in a fairly close one. They need to get this one for Toine.

[Simon2]

I forgot to say that I would love to see Howard on Pierce. If Pierce gets shut down, that's it.

Anyone see the line on this game? Mavs are just 2.5 pt favorites. Seems kinda low to me.

[MightyToine]

Originally posted by: Simon2
I forgot to say that I would love to see Howard on Pierce. If Pierce gets shut down, that's it.

Anyone see the line on this game? Mavs are just 2.5 pt favorites. Seems kinda low to me.

You have to take into account our Road-Record. Up until the Laker game, we haven't exactly been road warriors... [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[TripleDipping]

I think we're being a little too optimistic about this game. The Mavs will win but not by a big margin... I'd say around 7-10 points.
Walker and Dirk (especially Walker) need to ease up on the 3 on this one and go to the paint more because I don't see anyone who can match up with them. If Walker starts lauching wild 3 bombs then the game might get close. But overall I don't see why the Mavs should lose this one. Can't wait to see Howard guarding Pierce!

[LordOfTheMavs]

I wanna say the Mavs win big. It's hard to see how the Celtics can match up at all. The Mavs have the superior roster and should win handly against thier lesser eastern conference foe. Last year I would have said blowout and been dissapointed if it wasn't

But...

This is a road game. I have no confidence in the Mavs on the road this year and with good reason. They've lost many games they shouldn't have on the road this year. Unless this squad has really finally turned the corner on playing as a cohesive group (which I'm hoping they are starting to do right now) they will struggle as they have in thier previous road games.

They seem to be coming together after the wins against the Raps and Lakers, but I am keeping my expectations for road wins low until proven otherwise by some consistant winning away from the AAC.

Celtics 92 Mavs 87

[Super_B]

The Mavs should blowout the Celtics. Walker will be motivated, I know that. If Howard can "shutdown" Peirce or at least give him hell like he did to Kobe, the Celtics don't stand a chance keeping up with the Mavs.

[MavsFanFinley]

Howard will have his hands full tonight. He'll be asked to guard Pierce (who loves getting to the ft line) and Davis during this game. He's flirted with fouling out the last two games having been whistled for 5 fouls in each game.

[Psychedelic Fuzz]

I predict yet another slow start, with the team carried by an emotionally charged Walker, and the always energetic Howard for the first half. Dirk and Jamison heat up midway through the third.
Final: Mavs 106-90

[sike]

Want to see if Nash can keep up this pace his been on.....Dirk needs a good..no a great one: 30and15, walker will take too many shots...if not I gain new respect for him!....watch Howard..lets see if this kid is for real or just hit the wall like most rookies....
Mavs more than ten on the road

109-96...

[minkbarn]

Originally posted by: Simon2
Mavs win big 120-100. Celtics with their new people won't be able to stop the Mavs. Don't see how Mavs can lose this game. Walker plays big. He'll probably get a triple double.

Attempted suicide by Celtic fans: 10
Ainge hate mail: 17,250
Boston fans saying that the trade was good: 2 (Ainge and some clueless fan)

--

Actually, I think a majority of Celtic fans are very happy to see Antoine go, especially those of us old enough to have witnessed double digit championships. Walker looks fit, and is playing the best ball of his career with the Mavs, but when he was with Boston he was chronically out of shape, and had the worst shot selection and positioning of any talented player I've ever seen. Only the trade made him reconsider his role as a player.
It was, imho, a good trade for both teams (Welsch has been very good) though the payoff for the Mavs has come much quicker.

You are right about many Celtic fans being unhappy with Ainge, myself not being one of them. We needed big changes.

As for tonight's game, I agree with everyone here that the Mavs should win going away. What momentum the Celtics had put together has been interrupted by the Davis trade. Dallas has superior talent, and has beaten Boston for years in a row. They would have been prohibitive favorites tonight even without the Antoine deal.

Antoine will be very fired up tonight. The only caveat on Walker's performance is that he often seemed to have poor games in his hometown of Chicago. He got *too* pumped up.

Anyway. With the exception of tonight, best of luck to the Mavs. BEAT LA!!

[sbjensen]

Walker and Pierce will both be HIGHLY motivated -- unfortunately for us, Pierce is still a slightly better player.

BUT, the "supporting" casts don't compare.

Look for Walker to go for 25+ points (on 25+ shots). Pierce may get 40.

Mavs bailed out in the end by Nash, Nowitzki, Jamison, and the relentless energy of the young Mr. Howard.

Mavs 110, Celts 102.

[Male30Dan]

Well, all of the Mihm lovers out there will likely get to see a heavy dose of him, seeing as how he is about IT for center on this new Celtics team. I say that the Mavs win big, and despite all of the WANTING TO in the world, Walker resists doing the wiggle for his old fans!!!

Mavs 113
Celtics 94

[bigdaddy]

celtics over dallas by 4

Pierce to drop 45

Walker to shoot 4-18

shoots his team out of the game.He will try and prove a point like he did when he faced his hometown team chicago..celtics fans are so glad walker is gone.They think of him as a cancer who shoots you out of games.Which he does...he will try and do too much tonight which will mean a dallas loss

unfortunately for us, Pierce is still a slightly better player

Slighty? LMAO.. Pierce is 10 times better than Walker.

[rakesh.s]

mavs 116-104

walker - 21 points, 15 boards, 6 ast
dirk - 30 points, 8 boards, 3 ast

and look for the mavs to be red hot from downtown

[LRB]

Hopefully last Friday provided a lasting cure to our Road woes as the Mavs not only had their best road game of the year, but the best game of any sort. The Celts have several new players to integrate and are in many ways worse off than we were opening night against the Flakers on jelling.

Mavs 101
Celts 92

[sbjensen]

[i]Originally posted by: bigdaddy[/i

Slighty? LMAO.. Pierce is 10 times better than Walker.

Whatever you say... but here's the numbers for their careers:

Pierce 23.3 ppg/Walker 20.3 ppg
Pierce .437 fg%/Walker .413 fg%
Pierce .366 3pt%/Walker .332 3pt%
Pierce 6.6 rpg/Walker 8.7 rpg
Pierce 3.4 apg/Walker 4.2 apg
Pierce 3.05 trnoverpg/Walker 3.22 trnoverpg

So, Pierce has outscored Walker by 3.0 points, outshot him by 2.5 percentage points, and has turned the all over .17 fewer times per game. Walker has significantly outrebounded him and dished out more assists. And don't give me that whole "numbers lie" crap, because the vast majority of their careers they were playing on the same team at the same time. This is clearly an apples-to-apples statistical comparison.

I'd rather have Pierce. But Walker is damned close.

[rakesh.s]

Originally posted by: bigdaddy

Slighty? LMAO.. Pierce is 10 times better than Walker.

i wouldn't say 10 times better but pierce is awesome in the clutch and if you need a comeback win

maybe 3 or 4 times better

[minkbarn]

Originally posted by: sbjensen

Whatever you say... but here's the numbers for their careers:

Pierce 23.3 ppg/Walker 20.3 ppg
Pierce .437 fg%/Walker .413 fg%
Pierce .366 3pt%/Walker .332 3pt%
Pierce 6.6 rpg/Walker 8.7 rpg
Pierce 3.4 apg/Walker 4.2 apg
Pierce 3.05 trnoverpg/Walker 3.22 trnoverpg

So, Pierce has outscored Walker by 3.0 points, outshot him by 2.5 percentage points, and has turned the all over .17 fewer times per game. Walker has significantly outrebounded him and dished out more assists. And don't give me that whole "numbers lie" crap, because the vast majority of their careers they were playing on the same team at the same time. This is clearly an apples-to-apples statistical comparison.

I'd rather have Pierce. But Walker is damned close.

Having looked at these numbers for a long time, I think I can shed some light here: What's missing is free throws attempted. Pierce (I believe) led the league in fta because he goes strong to the hoop. Walker, with Boston anyway, was perennially on the perimeter, and hardly ever got on the line. Pierce was in this way a dramatically more efficient offensive player.

Pierce is not 10 times better than Walker. He's only eight times better. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[superheadcat]

original on boston globe, i copied from lonemavsfan:

Walker has made most of move to Dallas
By Shira Springer, Globe Staff, 12/17/2003
When director of basketball operations Danny Ainge informed Antoine Walker of the trade that would send the seven-year Boston veteran to Dallas, it was a quick conversation. Walker actually cut the call short, disbelieving the news. Amid the distractions of a high-stakes blackjack game at Mohegan Sun, Walker initially thought he misheard Ainge. Walker could not believe the Celtics received Raef LaFrentz and Jiri Welsch in exchange for his talents, as well as Tony Delk's.

"[Danny] was like, 'You've got good news and bad news," said Walker. "The good news is you're getting traded to the Dallas Mavericks. You're going to be on a great team. He started trying to feed me a bunch of [expletive]. At first, I was like, `I'll call you right back.' I couldn't believe he told me I got traded. I didn't want to talk while I was gambling.

"I get up and get in my car and call him back. I was like, 'What did you just tell me?' [He said], 'I just told you. I just traded you.' He tried to convince me it was going to be a good situation for me. Then, [Jim O'Brien] called me after that. He said, 'I never imagined coaching a game without you and I want us to remain close.' That was it. I knew he was stunned. After that, I just called my family and went home and packed my bag."

From that point, it was a post-trade whirlwind. A flight to Dallas. Introductions to Mavericks coach Don Nelson, new teammates, and a new town. For the first time in his career, Walker faced an uncertain future in unfamiliar surroundings. In a recent interview, Walker admitted his "biggest fear" was "how was I going to fit in, how was my playing time going to be."

Although he maintains the deal done by Ainge was "personal," Walker has made the best of his new situation. He returns to the FleetCenter tonight for the first time since the Oct. 20 trade, averaging 18.2 points, 10 rebounds, and 4.7 assists in 37.7 minutes. He has blended almost perfectly with Dallas superstars Dirk Nowitzki, Steve Nash, Michael Finley, and Antawn Jamison. In Nelson, Walker has a coach whose offensive creativity suits the point-forward's versatility.

"I feel my passion for the game is still very high," said Walker. "I want to still be one of the best players in this league, to be considered as an All-Star in this league. So, I wasn't ready to throw in the white flag. But it's been great. It's been better than I ever expected, as far as fitting into this system.

"I've got to do certain things for us to win, but it's different now. I think the biggest relief is knowing I don't have to score all the time. That's the biggest relief, knowing I don't have to score 20, 25 points for your team to have a chance to win. That's probably the best feeling. But besides that, you've got to bring it night in and night out. Because we're constantly learning each other. We're constantly trying to build consistency. We're trying to be the team that we are on paper."

That said, Walker enjoyed the challenge of putting up big offensive numbers for the Celtics. With the Mavericks, he has become a more efficient player, learning how to make the most of his minutes and shot attempts. Last season, Walker averaged 19.9 shots per game. This year in Dallas, he is taking 17 shots per game, though his scoring average (18.2) has dropped just 1.9 points per game. And the point-forward is committing fewer turnovers than he did last year (3.3-2.7).

Walker likes how his teammates "feed off each other," sending the ball to whichever one gets hot or can exploit a mismatch. That freestyle approach has placed Dallas atop the Midwest Division with a 15-8 record. Walker has been an integral part of the team's success, providing both a strong presence in the low post and verbal leadership.

The point-forward with a fondness for trash-talking has also given the Mavericks a little edginess, as was evident during the game against the Lakers Dec. 12. Walker engaged Shaquille O'Neal in some late-game verbal sparring with Dallas minutes away from defeating LA, 110-93, at Staples Center. Despite four future Hall of Famers suiting up for LA, Walker likes the Mavericks' chances of making it out of the West.

"I thought we were going to get a good player and he's passed every test so far, as far as I'm concerned," said Nelson. "He's not perfect, but nobody is. But what he brings to the party is a great guy. He's good in the locker room. He competes every night and wants to win. He's an awful good player. That's the bottom line.

"There are nights when I can see his warts, his deficiencies. Sometimes you want him to not take the gambles with the pass that he does. Maybe too many turnovers. Sometimes you say, `What in the world is he thinking?' or `Is he thinking at all?' All I've done was just talk to him about maybe you don't want to turn the ball over too much. And he went from, like, eight turnovers to, like, two a game. He's great. I love the guy. I didn't know he was that good a guy off the floor, great to be around, a leader in all the right ways."

Shortly after he arrived, Walker impressed Nelson with his generosity off the court. Nelson relayed an anecdote about a player Walker knew from his days in Boston who competed for the Dallas summer league team. The player did not have an NBA job when the season started. So Walker gave the player, who has a wife and two children, an envelope with $5,000. All Walker said was that he hoped the money would help the player take care of his family.

Some Boston fans still do not know the extent of Walker's charitable side. They choose to remember Walker for his turnovers, questionable 3-point shooting, and signature wiggle. So, Walker expects a mixed reaction when he steps onto the parquet tonight, a "50-50" split between boos and cheers. Although it undoubtedly will be a surreal experience unpacking in the visitors' locker room and an emotional contest against former teammates, Walker believes he can and will play his game. He knows the Mavericks play best when they play unselfishly, when no one player tries to dominate or dictate the action on the court.

"I'm not putting any pressure on myself to play a certain way [against Boston], as long as I come out of there with a `W', " said Walker. "We've got too much talent for me to try and isolate and try and go get 40 points. That's not the makeup of our team, for one individual to go out and get 40 points. We won't be able to win the game. It would just mess everything we do up. I've got to go in there and play the game that we play.

"Fan-wise, I think it will be 50-50. Because it wasn't a situation where I was in the papers demanding to be traded. It wasn't a situation where it lingered for a while. It wasn't the summertime. It's not like some of those other trades [where there's bad feeling]. I'm looking forward to playing there. I'm looking forward to playing against those guys. It's going to be crazy being on the whole visitors' side, weird, going against Obie, playing against Paul. You never thought that day would come when you play against guys you've been with for so long.

"You kind of wish you had the chance that these guys [Nowitzki, Michael Finley, Nash] had where they're together five, six years. You kind of wish they allowed us to play it out like that."

Despite recent comments criticizing Ainge and calling him "a snake," Walker said he had nothing to prove to the man who traded him. Walker added that his strong play has not been an attempt to prove Ainge wrong, but has resulted from being healthy and in shape. He can also thank the Celtics for providing extra motivation. Being swept by New Jersey in the second round last season gave Walker all the incentive he needed to come back in the best condition of his career, some 20 pounds lighter than when he headed for the offseason.

"I came in ready to play basketball, get back to my old self," said Walker. "A lot of people didn't understand that I got hurt for the first time, and I was really hurt [with a sprained right knee]. And it was tough. I couldn't practice the way I wanted to. I just got back in the right shape. And then, we got swept in the playoffs. That hurt. That's something that weighs on you. So, I wanted to come back with a vengeance. I was trying to come back for me personally. I felt like I had a bad second round of the playoffs. I wanted to come back and just get back to playing basketball and give it another shot."

Walker just didn't expect he would be doing exactly that in Dallas.

[ladymavsfan]

hello all. i'm new to the board.

i think the mavs will win this one even though it's on the road. nice to know A-Dub won't try to win this one against his old team all by himself.

mavs 100-92

[Evilmav2]

Tonight, Antoine shoots poorly but ends up being two assists short of a triple-double, and the Mavs win with a final score of 102-92.

[bigdaddy]

Tonie's stats are mis-leading he scores well because he takes so many shots..he makes bad decisions.He is not close to Paul Pierce who is a SUPERSTAR..don't ever forget that.Bringing out the numbers is worthless...Pierce has been in the league less..he can take over games...tonie never has or will.Please stop saying Walker is close to Pierce..when he isn't...otherwise Pierce is the most underrated player in NBA history

[bingocasino]

do you sleep in pierce gear?

[u2sarajevo]

Mavs 97
Kelts 93

Pierce struggles early due to the rookie phenom's defense. JHo get's fouled out late 3rd and Pierce get's them within striking distance, however much too late to take over the lead.

bigdaddy cries in his pie, but saves the calories because he hates soggy pie. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[sbjensen]

1. Thesis:

Pierce is still a slightly better player [than Walker].

Support for thesis:

, Pierce has outscored Walker by 3.0 points, outshot him by 2.5 percentage points, and has turned the all over .17 fewer times per game. Walker has significantly outrebounded him and dished out more assists. And don't give me that whole "numbers lie" crap, because the vast majority of their careers they were playing on the same team at the same time. This is clearly an apples-to-apples statistical comparison.

2. A well-supported, rational argument against thesis -- Minkbarn writes:

Having looked at these numbers for a long time, I think I can shed some light here: What's missing is free throws attempted. Pierce (I believe) led the league in fta because he goes strong to the hoop. Walker, with Boston anyway, was perennially on the perimeter, and hardly ever got on the line. Pierce was in this way a dramatically more efficient offensive player.

3. A different sort of argument against thesis -- bigdaddy writes:

Tonie's stats are mis-leading he scores well because he takes so many shots..he makes bad decisions.He is not close to Paul Pierce who is a SUPERSTAR..don't ever forget that.Bringing out the numbers is worthless...Pierce has been in the league less..he can take over games...tonie never has or will.Please stop saying Walker is close to Pierce..when he isn't...otherwise Pierce is the most underrated player in NBA history

4. CONCLUSION: I leave that to each of you to decide. For my part, I stick with my original thesis, although I agree that minkbarn has pointed out a significant, objectively-verifiable difference between the two players. In my world, despite this difference, Antoine's still only a slightly-less valuable player than Pierce.

[TripleDipping]

Originally posted by: bigdaddy
Tonie's stats are mis-leading he scores well because he takes so many shots..he makes bad decisions.He is not close to Paul Pierce who is a SUPERSTAR..don't ever forget that.Bringing out the numbers is worthless...Pierce has been in the league less..he can take over games...tonie never has or will.Please stop saying Walker is close to Pierce..when he isn't...otherwise Pierce is the most underrated player in NBA history

Talk about fuzzy math... go do some research before you open your mouth. Pierce is averaging 20+ shots this season and commits more turnover per game than Walker and yet his scoring average is only about 3 points more than Walker.

[reeds]

BOSTON 104
DALLAS 103

Dallas is terrible first game on the road after a home win... Just my thoughts.....

[EricaLubarsky]

anyone remember a couple of years ago when the Celtics had a chance to move on to the second round- seconds left on the clock and down by 1 point? Walker was open for the three and Pierce demanded it and missed a 17 foot jumper, double-teamed. Just an interesting memory.

[seelenjaeger]

The winner wears Blue tonight.

Light them up Anotine for trading you!
Light them up Dirk, for not drafting you!

[Jeremiah]

They need rebounding, they need heart - Bill Laimbeer on ESPN pre game talking about the Mavs and what they need to win a championship.

Jeez. that's all I can say, jeez.

Oh, and Mavs 107 Celtics 91

[PiusDoe]

AhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHH! Mini-Primal Scream. NBA Shoot Around. That Sherman Hemsley ass-clown Stephen A. Smith and company taking absolute delight in ruling out all possibility of the Mavs going to the finals. Worthless grinning jackasses. God damn...if we win by 300 tonight will they actually give us a chance then?! Screw-bunnies...and other non-sensical things...

[Mavs_fun_fan]

Originally posted by: Jeremiah
They need rebounding, they need heart - Bill Laimbeer on ESPN pre game talking about the Mavs and what they need to win a championship.

Jeez. that's all I can say, jeez.

This just shows what complete lack of research these dumbasses do before a game. The Mavericks have greatly improved their rebounding and anyone who says this team has no heart has never watched them or is just ignorant period. They may not be the most physical team but they have plenty of heart.

[Murphy3]

walker feels right at home...just bricked a three

[Murphy3]

good to see walker forcing a shot instead of hitting the open man

[ladymavsfan]

mavs looking a little slow and sloppy early...