Shaq may be going to Suns

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Phoenix also runs the pick-and-roll a lot, and that Nash-Stoudemire connection is every bit as important to their success as their run-and-gun is.

The "common knowledge" on Phoenix is that they can't win with their style. How could it possibly be a bad move, then, for them to move toward a more traditional approach?

Well, first of all you'd be quitting on this season. You can't change your offensive approach more than halfway through the season and expect to be competitive.

Also, in my opinion they don't have a coach with the ability to coach that kind of offense.

Also, a team with Shaq (in his current form), Amare, and Nash on the floor at the same time is a horrendous defensive team.

[Janett_Reno]

All i can say is wow on this Shaq/Marion trade. Looks like Shaq is flying out in the morn for a physical in Phx. They claim they want him for defense and plug the middle. Amare and him will be a big back line. Marion really does alot and is usually in ever top 10 stat known to man.

If this goes thru, Phx should miss Marion in alot of areas and maybe Shaq being healthy can help them play defense and plug the middle. I am just puzzled how he can run up and down with them. They are doing what i said, the only way to win a title, to have a dominating power forward/slash center or center. Yes, this is one but can he get up and down, how much does he have left, can Phx slow it down and play more half court for Shaq? This is very interesting. Marion will do ok down in Miami but that team sure sux now.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by thereaper

So would you do a deal for Shaq if it cost you Josh?

Nope. There's not enough talent left behind to make that move. Shaq would have to go for either worthless or redundant parts. Dampier would qualify for both, if Shaq were on the roster instead.

[phxsuns]

What a sad day for many Suns fans, specifically Shawn Marion fans like myself. The deal is done, its a wrap. Shaq got his MRI today to see if anythings wrong. Everything went well. Well informed people are all saying the same. Shaq is coming to Phx.

Amare moves to power forward and Shaq becomes the starting center.

A part of me wants to hurl. Shaq's contract is horrendous, make that insane. And what a big change for the Suns, in mid season no less. This can go very very wrong.

But I guess I can see the positives:

- We won't get abused for so many offensive rebounds, which is really our weakness. Its extremely hard to beat us unless you completely kill us on the offensive glass.

-Fewer offensive boards given up= more running opportunities= more chances to score.

-A center to play with Amare, he hasn't had that since his rookie season. He's not a Center, never has been, and won't ever be.

-Kareem wasn't fast, and that worked out well for the Lakers.

-Doubling Shaq, on this team, surrounded by our shooters? Try it.

-A legit post presense, bolds well for the playoffs.

Then the cons:

-Gawd awful contract if he doesn't retire.

-Causes a potential problem with our offensive spacing.

-Marion IS our fast break, let no one tell you differently. Its Marion, followed by Nash, followed by Barbosa. We might be able to run as much with Shaq patrolling the paint, but we won't be nearly as effective without Marion's speed.

-Losing Marion, period. Our cornerstone rock for almost the last decade. Hardly gets tired, never gets injured, scores without needing plays, always guards the best player defensively, all hustle and heart. The man should retire in this uniform and only this uniform. Its sickening that he's being traded.

-We lose perimeter defense, but gain defense in the paint. Which is more important? I can make cases for both.

What a big risk for a team that currently has the best record in the West, its not like we are struggling or something. I just don't see why we'd do this unless something is going on internally. And if anyone thinks we will shoot like we did last Thursday on TNT for the Spurs game in a 7 game series knows nothing about basketball or this team specifically. But of course people like Barkley made it sound like the end of the world. Thats just one horrible shooting night, it happens to all teams and just happened a week ago when we played Chicago too. A bad shooting performance should not scare a GM into making a deal.

Kerr's GM rep is now on the line. He just gave the middle finger to D'antoni and his system.

[BGMaverick9]

Phoenix is going to have to go through some kind of philosophical changes. You're either saying:

Ease of the gas a bit and let Shaq catch up
Play 4 on 5 and let Shaq just play D
Pray to whoever you want to pray to that he doesn't break down after passing the physical.

This is an all or nothing kind of trade, they HAVE to win in the next 1-2 seasons or this is a bust.

phxsuns, you're not going to be gaining that much defensive presence in the paint if you have zero to no perimeter D. They'll have a clear path and now your big man is going to foul out.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Well, first of all you'd be quitting on this season. You can't change your offensive approach more than halfway through the season and expect to be competitive.

A few things... First off, PHX has actually been more flexible in their approach the last couple years than you give them credit for. They are a LONG way from, say, a Golden State. Second, they don't necessarily have to retool everything if they just change out one player. And third, I think you are stepping way out on a thin limb, to suggest that you can't change in-season if you want to be competitive. Detroit and Wallace should have taught you something about that.

Finally, PHX is sitting at the top of the West right now, correct? Suggesting that one move would make them less than "competitive" is a huge stretch, indeed.

Also, in my opinion they don't have a coach with the ability to coach that kind of offense.

And what are you basing that on? I think that a lot of people--including just about everyone on this board--underestimates Mike D'Antoni.

Also, a team with Shaq (in his current form), Amare, and Nash on the floor at the same time is a horrendous defensive team.

I'll believe that when I see it. Why would you say that?

[nikeball]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

uh marions numbers with and without nash are virtually identical with the exception of fg% for his career. hes the best cutter and one of the best finishers in the nba. this belief that he is somehow entirely a creation of nash that floats around is honestly one of the stupidest notions in the nba.

rep. his numbers before nash were already all star caliber.
Pre-Steve Nash
-------------------FG FGA FG% 3M 3A 3P% FTM FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TO Foul PTS
2001-02 PHO 8.1 17.2 46.9 0.6 1.5 39.3 2.4 2.8 84.5 2.6 7.3 9.9 2.0 1.8 1.8 1.1 2.6 19.1
2002-03 PHO 8.2 18.1 45.2 1.7 4.5 38.7 3.1 3.6 85.1 2.5 7.1 9.5 2.4 1.9 2.3 1.2 2.6 21.2
2003-04 PHO 7.5 17.0 44.0 1.1 3.4 34.0 2.9 3.4 85.1 2.7 6.7 9.3 2.7 2.0 2.1 1.3 2.6 19.0

WITH NASH
2004-05 PHO 7.6 15.9 47.6 1.4 4.2 33.4 2.8 3.4 83.3 2.9 8.4 11.3 1.9 1.5 2.0 1.5 2.5 19.4
2005-06 PHO 8.8 16.9 52.5 1.2 3.6 33.1 3.0 3.7 80.9 3.1 8.8 11.8 1.8 1.5 2.0 1.7 2.8 21.8
2006-07 PHO 7.0 13.4 52.4 1.0 3.2 31.8 2.5 3.1 81.1 2.2 7.7 9.8 1.7 1.4 2.0 1.5 2.7 17.5
2007-08 PHO 6.5 12.3 52.6 1.2 3.6 34.7 1.6 2.3 71.3 1.8 8.0 9.9 2.1 1.0 2.0 1.5 2.5 15.8

[Janett_Reno]

phxsuns, i understand how you will miss Marion. He has been really good for Phx for along time. It looks like Marion was going to be gone next year and they decided to move him. If anyone person, can make you look great again and if Shaq can just get up and down the floor, Steve Nash can do wonders and he will prolong Shaqs career, if Shaq doesn't take a bad injury.

Who knows, on how smart and good Nash is, it is not impossible for Phx to slow it down and let Shaq and Amare dominate a paint game in half court. A Spurs style game. This all hinges if Shaq can play and not be hurt. If your team can slow it down, keep Shaq in, Nash will do wonders and a big front line is more of a title team. It is a risk because of his health but the way it sounds Marion was going to be gone next year but yes i thought you would have went for a younger player.

All i can say, this is very interesting. If Shaq can be 50 to 75%, watch out for a war in Utah and Lakers against Suns and both those teams are very good. Utah looks very good to me. If Shaq can play, he will hurt us inside, i am guessing and the Spurs haven't been so great so far. The west could be wide open now.

[chumdawg]

Geez, just look at his FG% before and after Nash and try to make the claim with a straight face that Nash didn't make him a better player.

[phxsuns]

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

phxsuns, i understand how you will miss Marion. He has been really good for Phx for along time. It looks like Marion was going to be gone next year and they decided to move him. If anyone person, can make you look great again and if Shaq can just get up and down the floor, Steve Nash can do wonders and he will prolong Shaqs career, if Shaq doesn't take a bad injury.

Who knows, on how smart and good Nash is, it is not impossible for Phx to slow it down and let Shaq and Amare dominate a paint game in half court. A Spurs style game. This all hinges if Shaq can play and not be hurt. If your team can slow it down, keep Shaq in, Nash will do wonders and a big front line is more of a title team. It is a risk because of his health but the way it sounds Marion was going to be gone next year but yes i thought you would have went for a younger player.

All i can say, this is very interesting. If Shaq can be 50 to 75%, watch out for a war in Utah and Lakers against Suns and both those teams are very good. Utah looks very good to me. If Shaq can play, he will hurt us inside, i am guessing and the Spurs haven't been so great so far. The west could be wide open now.

The Suns organization likes to boast that they have the best training staff in the NBA. Able to revive the career of a left for dead Antonio McDyess (who returned their kindness by signing with Detriot) but alas. Not to mention what they've done with Amare, whose enjoying the best recovery ever from microfracture surgury for a big man. And look at the success Grant Hill is having here.

The Suns practices are by far the lightest. 45 minute shoot arounds/plus various drills. You hardly even run. That will help a worn down Shaq recover quicker to whatever is ailing him. Plus it'll keep him fresher for games. I'm sure the staff is coming up with ways to get Shaq's motor going again.

All we need is Shaq to be ready for the last few weeks of the season and the playoffs. An energized Shaq wanting to prove the world and the Lakers wrong will own in the playoffs. But thats a big if. But just imagine if the Suns meet the Lakers in the playoffs this year.. wow.

Word is that he's called Amare and said he will be here tommorrow morning. Shaq is Amare's idol, I'm sure Amare is giddy over this.

But like I said, Marion is my boy. Marion is a WARRIOR. You always know what he'll give you, he's dependable, he's fierce. You can't trade players like that. Marion was never this team's problem. Marion and Amare being played out of position is this team's problem. And I never get tired of those Marion/Dirk battles. Marion is always up in his grill, doesn't back down. But Dirk always goes right at him the same.

Now Amare will have to guard Dirk if we play you guys. I.. don't know what to feel about that. I don't think Amare has ever guard Dirk before for an extended period. It'll be interesting to say the least. I'll be choppin at the bit to see Dirk try to defend Amare though. Really, its a mismatch on the offensive end for both of them. Whoever fouls the other out faster wins.

Our games are about to get a lot more interesting, fellas. If thats even possible.

[dirno2000]

Huge risk for PHX but I actually think it may be worth it. I say that because I don't think that there was any way they were coming out of the West this year. There are too many teams that would just kill them on the glass.

This wouldn't make them the favorite but it would at least give them a shot. Marion has been great for them but they'd still have two all NBA caliber players along with some very good spare parts.

The question is, and it's been raised many times in this thread, can Dan Tony coach a normal basketball team? My guess in no. Maybe someone who follows the Suns closer could shed more light but this would seem to indicate a power struggle between Kerr and Dan Tony. I can't imagine that the coach is in favor of this move.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

A few things... First off, PHX has actually been more flexible in their approach the last couple years than you give them credit for. They are a LONG way from, say, a Golden State. Second, they don't necessarily have to retool everything if they just change out one player. And third, I think you are stepping way out on a thin limb, to suggest that you can't change in-season if you want to be competitive. Detroit and Wallace should have taught you something about that.

You're not seriously claiming that Detroit adding Wallace was an adjustment on this level. That's ridiculous.

[chumdawg]

Good stuff, phxsuns. I agree that this move is much more complex than it seems on the surface. It's fascinating to think about the trickle-down effects of the matchups, as you describe.

And yes, your boy Marion a warrior. It's a shame that he didn't seem to take to things in Phoenix off the court as well as he did on. On the court, he always gave the Suns everything (as far as I could see), and he certainly put enough daggers in our ass. But it was strange to hear about his discomfort off the court. I respect Marion a lot, but it always seemed to me that he asked for more fanfare than he deserved.

Oh, well. An already interesting year just got a whole lot more interesting!

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by jthig32

You're not seriously claiming that Detroit adding Wallace was an adjustment on this level. That's ridiculous.

Well, you are talking about a change in approach making you not even able to contend anymore. Are you serious?

Look, a major--MAJOR--part of the reason why the Suns have success is that they are so extraordinarily athletic and talented. It's not as much about the system as a lot of people make it out to be. The system itself breaks down into some very fundamental things. They pick-and-roll, they shoot threes at a good clip, they force turnovers and get out on the break. Wouldn't every single NBA team like to do those things as well as the Suns do?

With Shaq in place of Marion they will look different, yes. But everyone else on the roster won't suddenly not be able to do anymore all the things that they do well.

And hell, even if this does mean that they look entirely different, I've been hearing on this board ever since I got here that you can't win a title by running up and down the floor. So in that respect, this is a win-win for the Suns--if said notion is true.

[kg_veteran]

Shaq - Skinner
Amare - Diaw
Hill
Bell - Barbosa
Nash

Talk about an all or nothing move.

[LonghornDub]

I hope PHX does this trade. I think Shaq is done. I'm not convinced he'd even play for half of the games remaining this year.

[V2M]

Report: Shaquille O'Neal could be getting traded
By TIM REYNOLDS, AP Sports Writer
February 6, 2008

MIAMI (AP) -- Shaquille O'Neal is prepared for the Miami Heat to trade him, a confidant of the 14-time All-Star center told The Associated Press on Tuesday night.

O'Neal's associate, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to reveal anything publicly, indicated a move could be imminent.

"Shaq thinks something will happen," the associate said.

The Miami Herald reported earlier Tuesday that the Heat are in "serious and ongoing" trade negotiations with the Phoenix Suns, and the South Florida Sun-Sentinel said the deal could occur "within 48 hours." A Heat spokesman said the team had no comment, and several Suns officials didn't immediately return phone calls from the AP.

The Herald report said the Suns would send Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks to Miami in exchange for O'Neal, who is averaging a career-low 14.2 points and has been sidelined for the past two weeks by a lingering hip injury.

The Arizona Republic, also reported a deal could be imminent and that O'Neal had contacted some Suns players Tuesday night.

When asked last week about another report that a Shaq trade was possible, Heat coach Pat Riley said, "Not true."

But when the Los Angeles Lakers struck a deal with Memphis last week for 7-footer Pau Gasol and instantly strengthened their lineup, there's been constant speculation about how other Western Conference teams would respond.

And a Shaq-to-the-Suns deal would certainly create plenty of buzz.

"Really?" said the Lakers' Kobe Bryant, O'Neal's former teammate, when told of the apparently pending deal. "I know he likes the warm weather."

It isn't known if O'Neal -- who has two full seasons remaining after this one on his $100 million, five-year contract -- would welcome a trade. It also isn't known if the Heat would seek to add guard Smush Parker, who's been on the inactive list for months because of an unresolved legal issue, to the deal. Otherwise, making a 2-for-1 trade would force Miami to cut another player for roster room.

A four-time NBA champion, O'Neal entered this season talking about how he wanted to win at least one more title, saying his "legacy" wouldn't be complete unless he left the game with at least five rings.

If he's going to get No. 5 this year, he'd have to go elsewhere.

The Heat have lost 19 of their last 20 games and have the NBA's worst record at 9-37 -- meaning the 2006 NBA champions are almost a lock to miss the postseason. Phoenix, meanwhile, entered Tuesday with a 1 1/2 -game lead over New Orleans and Dallas in the race for the best record in the Western Conference.

To this point, O'Neal's year has been largely forgettable.

Miami's record has plummeted, O'Neal is going through a divorce and his scoring average is nearly 11 1/2 points below his 25.6 career mark. He suffered a bruised hip on Dec. 22 and has missed four of the past five weeks while trying to recover.

It's his second straight difficult season: O'Neal missed much of the 2006-07 campaign with a knee injury and finished that year with career-lows in games (40), scoring (17.3 points), rebounds (7.4), minutes (28.4) and free-throw percentage (.422).

"There were a lot of problems last year, but whenever you start talking about your problems, it turns into excuses," O'Neal told the AP in October, shortly before this season began. "And I've never made an excuse. So you won't ever hear me mention it again, unless of course you ask me. But there were a lot of problems last year."

Some problems are still there.

The team said he was undergoing another MRI exam on Tuesday, presumably to further determine the extent of the injury, and O'Neal didn't speak before leaving Miami's practice. The Heat play at Detroit on Wednesday.

Last Friday, O'Neal said he and Riley have not discussed any trade possibilities.

"He hasn't spoken to me," O'Neal said at the time. "He hasn't talked about it. I've been in the league 15 years. I've seen it all, been through it all. I've just got to sit back."

Suns coach Mike D'Antoni said on his weekly radio show on Sports 620 KTAR in Phoenix Tuesday night that the story caught him by surprise.

"The trade deadline's coming up so I'm sure there's talk all over the place," he said. "In our day and age now, you make one of those phone calls or answer a phone call everybody in the world knows about it. Other than normal business, I don't know anything that's going on."

Asked if any deal was close, D'Antoni said, "No, no, no."

Marion asked to be traded before the season began but has avoided talk of the subject since then. He is set to make $17 million next season, the final year of his contract, but can opt out of the deal and become a free agent.

Suns owner Robert Sarver said two weeks ago that none of the core players would be traded this season.

Neither Sarver nor Phoenix general manager Steve Kerr returned messages left on their cell phones.

AP sports writer Bob Baum in Phoenix contributed to this report.

[nikeball]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_yl...yhoo&type=lgns


Looks like it is done

Suns, Heat agree to Shaq trade
Suns, Heat agree to Shaq trade
By Johnny Ludden, Yahoo! Sports
February 5, 2008


No longer confident they can win a championship with their current roster, the Phoenix Suns have agreed to a blockbuster trade that will bring them Shaquille O'Neal, pending results of a physical, a source with knowledge of the negotiations said Tuesday.

O'Neal will travel to Phoenix aboard a private plane, the source said, to undergo an MRI on his ailing left hip Wednesday. If he passes the physical, the Suns will complete the trade by sending Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks to the Miami Heat.

The Miami Herald first reported the Suns and Heat were in serious discussions regarding the trade.

Johnny Ludden is the NBA editor for Yahoo! Sports. Send Johnny a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

[dude1394]

Wow...stinkin' wow..

[kg_veteran]

If nothing else, as Chum said, the season has gotten a lot more interesting in a hurry...

[Flacolaco]

Does this really help them?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Shaq - Skinner
Amare - Diaw
Hill
Bell - Barbosa
Nash

Talk about an all or nothing move.

On the all side...

Shaq
Amare
Hill
Bell
Nash

...looks pretty damn formidable.

On the nothing side...well, if you thought Marion was the piece that would get you a title, I guess. But everyone knows that Shaq wins titles.

Pretty salty move by the Suns, I think. They sit at first place in the conference, have been contenders year in and year out, but they still make a move. I guess they don't "love their team," despite sitting atop the West.

The ante just went up, that's for sure.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The ante just went up, that's for sure.

Don't think I agree with this. I think the Suns will realize in not too long that they were a better team with the Matrix than they will be with Shaq.

[kg_veteran]

If we can agree on anything, it's that Kerr doesn't think Dan Tony can win playing Nellie Ball.

[Flacolaco]

LOL

They sent Marion?

I didn't see that before.

[dude1394]

Boy you aren't kidding chum, thatsa' one salty matza ball I tell ya'...

[LonghornDub]

Hollinger hates the idea:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...ShaqSuns080206

Not a big fan of Hollinger when he gets too wrapped up in his numbers, but I agree with him here. Marion is a bad ass. A bona fide bad ass. Shaq is old and used up. I can't believe they'd do this.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

Don't think I agree with this. I think the Suns will realize in not too long that they were a better team with the Matrix than they will be with Shaq.

I have my doubts, too. Can they win with only one above average defender in the starting lineup (Bell)? Sure, Shaq will help clog the lane, but will he really make the defense better? The offense? Even on the glass, I'm not sure how much of a difference he makes.

[V2M]

Gambo: It's A Fact - Shaq Traded To Phoenix

February 5th, 2008 @ 9:12pm

by John Gambadoro/Sports 620 KTAR

The Shaquille O'Neal trade to the Phoenix Suns is not a rumor.

In fact, I expect it to happen sometime early afternoon on Wednesday.

O'Neal will be in Phoenix on Wednesday for a physical, according to a Suns team source.

The Suns have moved Wednesday morning's shoot-around, which was originally scheduled at 9:45 a.m., to 4:45 p.m. - hours prior to their contest against the New Orleans Hornets.

The Suns will part ways with Shawn Marion and Marcus Banks and move to a conventional style with O'Neal playing the 5.

The Suns have major concerns about chemistry issues on the team and feel a trade for O'Neal would alleviate those issues, plus give them the post defender they lack.

The money would be a wash this year and next, but the Suns would be on the hook for $20 million in 2009-10 - the final year of O'Neals' contract. There is a belief that the window for Steve Nash to win a championship is down to this year and next and that O'Neal would give the Suns a better chance to win now.

My sources tell me that O'Neal desperately wants to come to Phoenix and will be rejuvenated to have a chance to win again and that the Suns do not have any concerns over his injured hip.

The Suns will not expect O'Neal to dominate as he did in his prime, in fact his minutes will probably hover around 25 per game as they try to keep him fresh for the playoffs and a potential matchup against Tim Duncan and the Spurs.

Just what this means for Mike D'Antoni is anyone's guess.

It is clear that a trade for O'Neal would be a negative indictment on the Suns current style and would suggest that management does not believe the current run-and-gun style can win a title.

Sports 620 KTAR's Craig Grialou contributed to this report

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Well, you are talking about a change in approach making you not even able to contend anymore. Are you serious?

Look, a major--MAJOR--part of the reason why the Suns have success is that they are so extraordinarily athletic and talented. It's not as much about the system as a lot of people make it out to be. The system itself breaks down into some very fundamental things. They pick-and-roll, they shoot threes at a good clip, they force turnovers and get out on the break. Wouldn't every single NBA team like to do those things as well as the Suns do?

With Shaq in place of Marion they will look different, yes. But everyone else on the roster won't suddenly not be able to do anymore all the things that they do well.

And hell, even if this does mean that they look entirely different, I've been hearing on this board ever since I got here that you can't win a title by running up and down the floor. So in that respect, this is a win-win for the Suns--if said notion is true.

You are grasping for straws chum. There is a huge difference between the Detroit Pistons and the Suns here. The Detroit Pistons had a system in place where Rasheed's skills fit in, he just had to change the way he had been playing the game. The Suns have a system that doesn't at all fit Shaq's skills. They have to either change the way the play midseason or be ready to accept a Shaq with very little value. Shaq can't run and gun, he just can't. And despite what you say about Phoenix being flexible, the bottom line is, the run and gun is their identity. Why do you think "7 seconds or less" was written? It's going to be tough to switch from run and gun to traditional during the mid-season.

This is a desperate move by Phoenix. I don't get it. They are sitting at the top of the conference, and they decide to trade a vital cog for a lesser player and totally overhaul their playing system. We'll see how it pans out, but I can tell you I'm thrilled with this trade as a Mavs fan. I don't really see this working out in Phoenix's favor.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I have my doubts, too. Can they win with only one above average defender in the starting lineup (Bell)? Sure, Shaq will help clog the lane, but will he really make the defense better? The offense? Even on the glass, I'm not sure how much of a difference he makes.

He'll certainly give them a new dimension, but I think this trade benefits the Mavs in future matchups with the Suns. Who is going to guard Dirk now? Marion did a fairly ok job at it most of the time. Who will it be now, Bell?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

If we can agree on anything, it's that Kerr doesn't think Dan Tony can win playing Nellie Ball.

Not so fast, bronco. Don't you imagine that Nellie would have killed to have had Shaq and Nash on the same team?

Kerr was there at 12:01am on July 1, 2004, to recruit Nash...so I wouldn't dismiss Kerr's opinion of "Nellie Ball" just yet.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Not so fast, bronco. Don't you imagine that Nellie would have killed to have had Shaq and Nash on the same team?

Kerr was there at 12:01am on July 1, 2004, to recruit Nash...so I wouldn't dismiss Kerr's opinion of "Nellie Ball" just yet.

Explain to me, then, how they are going to run-and-gun with Shaq.

It ain't gonna happen. But don't let me stop you from spinning away...

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

I have my doubts, too. Can they win with only one above average defender in the starting lineup (Bell)? Sure, Shaq will help clog the lane, but will he really make the defense better? The offense? Even on the glass, I'm not sure how much of a difference he makes.

I do wonder. Are Amare's defensive problems in part because he is playing out of position? I haven't seen a lot out of him to suggest he is a good defensive player, but I have to imagine he would be better defending other power forwards rather than centers. That's the only way I can see Shaq improving the defense really. But the problem is Shaq is a much worse defender than Marion. Is having players in more traditional positions going to improve the team defense enough make up for the lost of Marion? Is Dan Tony going to even care to make this team defense work? Like you, I have my doubts.

I also see Shaq clogging the lane on offense and making it harder for Amare to work. I mean, Shaq is going to want the ball and so will Amare. Will the Suns find that delicate balance and make it all work? Who is going to pick up all of Marions garbage buckets and baskets off the cuts?

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

You are grasping for straws chum. There is a huge difference between the Detroit Pistons and the Suns here. The Detroit Pistons had a system in place where Rasheed's skills fit in, he just had to change the way he had been playing the game. The Suns have a system that doesn't at all fit Shaq's skills. They have to either change the way the play midseason or be ready to accept a Shaq with very little value. Shaq can't run and gun, he just can't. And despite what you say about Phoenix being flexible, the bottom line is, the run and gun is their identity. Why do you think "7 seconds or less" was written? It's going to be tough to switch from run and gun to traditional during the mid-season.

This is a desperate move by Phoenix. I don't get it. They are sitting at the top of the conference, and they decide to trade a vital cog for a lesser player and totally overhaul their playing system. We'll see how it pans out, but I can tell you I'm thrilled with this trade as a Mavs fan. I don't really see this working out in Phoenix's favor.

If you think that an NBA team--any NBA team--isn't going to figure out how to use Shaquille O'Neal to their benefit...well, then I guess we just aren't on the same page.

If Shaq is not anywhere the guy he used to be, then Phoenix isn't going to benefit. But if he is, they will. That's just pretty simple, the way I see it.

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by ProdigyDub

He'll certainly give them a new dimension, but I think this trade benefits the Mavs in future matchups with the Suns. Who is going to guard Dirk now? Marion did a fairly ok job at it most of the time. Who will it be now, Bell?

It creates new matchup issues, for both teams. Amare will have to guard Dirk or Howard, which he can't do. On the other end, Dirk will have to guard Amare, which will pose problems as well. Frankly, I see both teams playing a lot more zone when they match up now.

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Explain to me, then, how they are going to run-and-gun with Shaq.

It ain't gonna happen. But don't let me stop you from spinning away...

The rest of the team isn't going to wear weights on their ankles just because Shaq is on the roster.

You are using a straw-man argument against this concept you have of "Nellie Ball."

[kg_veteran]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I also see Shaq clogging the lane on offense and making it harder for Amare to work. I mean, Shaq is going to want the ball and so will Amare. Will the Suns find that delicate balance and make it all work? Who is going to pick up all of Marions garbage buckets and baskets off the cuts?

Right. It will be much easier for the Mavs to zone up against the Suns if Shaq and Amare are on the court, and it will be much more difficult for Nash and Amare to run their P&R unless Shaq is going to uselessly stand out of the way.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

If Shaq is not anywhere the guy he used to be[/B], then Phoenix isn't going to benefit. But if he is, they will. That's just pretty simple, the way I see it.

Even if Shaq isn't completely done (which I think he is, but I've been wrong before), I'm not convinced that they will automatically benefit.

Whatever level Shaq is at, it has to be enough to match and surpass what Marion brought to the team in order for the Suns to benefit. Marion is a 20+ PER guy who does all sorts of things incredibly well. I would be very, very hesitant to believe that Shaq could possibly make up for all that and more.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Not so fast, bronco. Don't you imagine that Nellie would have killed to have had Shaq and Nash on the same team?

Kerr was there at 12:01am on July 1, 2004, to recruit Nash...so I wouldn't dismiss Kerr's opinion of "Nellie Ball" just yet.

A 29 year old Shaq and 29 year old Nash, sure. When both are in their mid 30's? Well....