Rangers Offseason - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

jthig32 · 12-09-2009, 06:40 PM

So this will probably be THE only thing worth discussing on this board during the Rangers offseason, but this is probably a big enough deal to justify a thread of its own.

So what appears to be official, pending medical exams, is that the Rangers have traded Millwood to the Orioles for Chris Ray. The Rangers are also covering $3Mil of Millwood's salary.

Chris Ray, FYI, is a relief pitcher who used to be pretty darn good, but had Tommy John surgery almost two years ago and hopefully could be rebounding, as this is the optimal time after TJ surgery.

But the main point of the trade is to unload $8Mil worth of Millwood's salary. Millwood was not nearly as good as his base numbers suggested last year, and he was a good bet to not be worth anything close to the $12Mil he was due. The Rangers, for once, have plenty of options to step into the rotation and at the very least give league average performance. So for what you were paying Millwood, you'd like to have someone with a later higher upside.

Enter Rich Harden, whom the Rangers are apparently very close to signing to a one year deal with a team option for a second year. With Harden you have a bonafide, proven, top of the rotation ace. Like, not a "Ranger ace", but a real, big time, ace.

*Except*, (obviously there's an except on a pitcher signing a one year contract) Harden is VERY injury prone. I certainly wouldn't count on 190 innings from him this season.

But if he can stay relatively healthy and produce up to the level he's shown in the past, the Rangers just made themselves significantly better for 2010.

Very cool, and a very creative move by a front office that can't spend any money right now.

Murphy3 · 12-09-2009, 07:01 PM

Harden has just about the best stuff of any starter in the majors.. Millwood somehow survives and sometimes thrives with stuff that isn't that great.

jthig32 · 12-09-2009, 07:48 PM

TR Sullivan says the Harden deal is done, pending a physical.

Man, this is awesome.

twistaeffect2004 · 12-09-2009, 07:50 PM

When Harden is healthy, you can argue he has some of the best stuff in the sport.. problem is, he's never healthy.

He's thrown 150 plus innings once in his entire 6 year career, and that was 189.2 IP back in 2004 -- he hasn't approached that number since. I think it's a risky move, but I can see why the Rangers would make it. He's a guy that has ace type stuff, but because of his injury troubles and his erratic control, he'll probably never reach that level.

And as for Millwood, he was a pure salary dump. He was a good pitcher last year. Guys that can eat innings are very valuable in this era of baseball where bullpens are used so often.

tcat075 · 12-09-2009, 07:51 PM

Rich Harden, yay!

tcat075 · 12-09-2009, 07:58 PM

No Kevin Millwood, yay!

tcat075 · 12-09-2009, 07:59 PM

Just for the record, let's not assume that's he's a Ranger until he actually passes that physical. We've been through this already.

jthig32 · 12-09-2009, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

When Harden is healthy, you can argue he has some of the best stuff in the sport.. problem is, he's never healthy.

He's thrown 150 plus innings once in his entire 6 year career, and that was 189.2 IP back in 2004 -- he hasn't approached that number since. I think it's a risky move, but I can see why the Rangers would make it. He's a guy that has ace type stuff, but because of his injury troubles and his erratic control, he'll probably never reach that level..

This is a bit disingenuous considering he pitched 141 innings last year and 148 the year before.

Obviously injuries are a huge concern, but let's not act like he's barely pitched for the last five years.

Just211 · 12-09-2009, 08:16 PM

Wow! movement....
didn't expect Rangers to do anything with the ownership problems.... props to JD for being creative

twistaeffect2004 · 12-09-2009, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

This is a bit disingenuous considering he pitched 141 innings last year and 148 the year before.

Obviously injuries are a huge concern, but let's not act like he's barely pitched for the last five years.

For a starting pitcher, 141, and 148 innings is a pretty paltry amount. Consider this, Rick Porcello as a 19 year old through 170 innings last season.. heck, Joba Chamberlain on a strict innings limit threw 157 innings. When you consider the 189 IP Harden through in 2004 was the most he's thrown in his entire professional pitching career (including minor league), you can make the case that maybe his body just isn't capable of doing it.

Again, I can understand the rationale for doing it, but it's a big time risk. His career averages have proven that he's on the DL more than he's on the mound. It could put the Rangers at a major disadvantage because at the very least, Millwood ate a lot of innings. And last year, the bulk of his pitching was quality.

jthig32 · 12-09-2009, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

For a starting pitcher, 141, and 148 innings is a pretty paltry amount. Consider this, Rick Porcello as a 19 year old through 170 innings last season.. heck, Joba Chamberlain on a strict innings limit threw 157 innings. When you consider the 189 IP Harden through in 2004 was the most he's thrown in his entire professional pitching career (including minor league), you can make the case that maybe his body just isn't capable of doing it.

Again, I can understand the rationale for doing it, but it's a big time risk. His career averages have proven that he's on the DL more than he's on the mound. It could put the Rangers at a major disadvantage because at the very least, Millwood ate a lot of innings. And last year, the bulk of his pitching was quality.

Actually the bulk of his pitching was propped up by stellar defense and luck, to a certain extent. The Rangers have young pitchers capable of eating innings that should produce at the same level that Millwood would have.

I'm not saying there's no risk. There obviously is. But the Rangers already have at least six pitchers that should give them leave average innings next year. They need someone that can potentially give them something special, and Harden is that.

"Paltry" is also a bit harsh. 93 pitchers in all of MLB exceeded that last year. That's three per team. If Harden gives us 140 innings of his level of pitching next year, that will be pretty nice.

Five-ofan · 12-10-2009, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twistaeffect2004

For a starting pitcher, 141, and 148 innings is a pretty paltry amount. Consider this, Rick Porcello as a 19 year old through 170 innings last season.. heck, Joba Chamberlain on a strict innings limit threw 157 innings. When you consider the 189 IP Harden through in 2004 was the most he's thrown in his entire professional pitching career (including minor league), you can make the case that maybe his body just isn't capable of doing it.

Again, I can understand the rationale for doing it, but it's a big time risk. His career averages have proven that he's on the DL more than he's on the mound. It could put the Rangers at a major disadvantage because at the very least, Millwood ate a lot of innings. And last year, the bulk of his pitching was quality.

you can make a legitament argument that last year was millwoods worst year as a ranger. The rangers defense just made up for a ton of that. Hardens 140 innings are worth alot more than millwoods 180. The issue is, harden isnt exactly a guarantee to pitch 140 innings. If harden gives us 140+ innings, hell be a huge improvement.

Also if the talk that this could be a preamble to throwing ray at the rays for navarro are true, i really like this deal.

Male30Dan · 12-10-2009, 11:39 AM

Is Navarro the sub .230 hitter from 2 of the past 3 seasons or the .295 hitter from 2 years ago? Do we really need to trade a low-risk high-reward guy that could return to form after enough time off from TJ surgery for another sub .230 hitting catcher, assuming that IS what he is?

He is still young, and that is nice, but I am just curious if that is a definite win to everyone, (and yes, I have seen Ray's stats but many think he should have started back in AAA to slowly work back from TJ surgery rather than being tossed back into the fire). Maybe it makes so much sense due to the Max news of late, but aside from just adding the depth back, I was just curious as to your rationale.

As far as the recent moves go, I think there is literally no way to look at this other than a huge win. If you asked me if I would be cool with trading Millwood and Max Ramirez for Snyder, (a LOOGY with great lefty splits - rule 5 pick), Harden, Ray, and Lowell, (who is a good hitting righty with a good OBP to play some first, DH, and provide insurance at 3B if Young gets injured again), I would have told you FING YES rather than just YES.

We are improving, despite being handcuffed. Sure, it would have been nice to have the budget to keep Millwood AND sign Harden, but when you consider what JD had to work with, he pulled a couple of very nice trades and used the savings from Millwood brilliantly.

jthig32 · 12-10-2009, 12:02 PM

I personally don't think Ray for Navarro is an obvious win, especially considering he costs you an extra couple of million (I think, not checking right now) in an off season where we have so little wiggle room.

I want Ray to work out so that Feliz is free to be given a chance in the rotation.

Male30Dan · 12-10-2009, 12:15 PM

That is what my thoughts were. I am ALL about Feliz starting, at least at first to see if he can succeed at it.

Male30Dan · 12-10-2009, 12:45 PM

Of course having an absolute dominant closer with Frankie/CJ/Ray/etc... as bullpen arms is quite attractive too. Really with someone that good you can't go wrong, as long as he pitches for your team! Good problem to have, that is for sure.

Harden
Feldman
Holland
Feliz
Hunter

w/Frankie OR CJ closing

OR

Harden
Feldman
Holland
Hunter
McCarthy

w/Feliz closing

OR, best yet

Harden
Sheets
Feldman
Holland
Feliz

w/Frankie OR CJ closing...

muzak · 12-10-2009, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jthig32

I personally don't think Ray for Navarro is an obvious win, especially considering he costs you an extra couple of million (I think, not checking right now) in an off season where we have so little wiggle room.

I want Ray to work out so that Feliz is free to be given a chance in the rotation.

+1 on Feliz. I can't wait for baseball to start.

Male30Dan · 12-10-2009, 03:15 PM

The big question is where does Chris Davis get his at bats when Smoak comes up? Does he DH? Do they split time? If he is the DH, then what of Lowell? Does Lowell play every single game that any one of Young/Smoak/Davis takes a day off, (Young off - Lowell plays 3rd, Smoak off - Davis plays 1st and Lowell is DH, Davis off - Lowell is DH), and only then? Does Davis only DH when a Righty starts and Lowell only DH when a Lefty starts?

Assuming that we only have the players that we have discussed, here is how I see our starting lineup, (certainly not in the proper batting order), 1 month into the season:

C - Salty/Teagarden
1B - Smoak/Davis
2B - Kinsler
SS - Andrus
3B - Young
LF - Hamilton
CF - Borbon
RF - Cruz
DH - Davis/Lowell

Thoughts?

jthig32 · 12-10-2009, 03:24 PM

I think you're getting way ahead of yourself on Smoak. Unless he makes a giant leap forward, I don't think there's any way he's on the team a month into the season.

If the team thought Smoak was going to be ready to contribute in the middle of an offense that close to the beginning of the season I don't think they'd be concerned about adding Lowell.

I'm much more concerned with Davis' performance than I am trying to figure out where he's going to get at bats. If we're having that problem a month into the season things are going awfully well.

A month into the season, I think Davis is starting the bulk of the games at first and Murphy and Lowell are in a bit of a platoon at DH.

Male30Dan · 12-10-2009, 03:30 PM

Well, many talked about him winning the job straight out of spring training so I don't think I am that far ahead of myself talking about him getting called up a month in. "Way" ahead of myself? Really? I mean sure, he may not get called up a month in but I don't think it is an absurd goal, much less unrealistic.

Besides, don't skip the meat and potatoes of my question. WHENEVER Smoak comes up, where do these guys fit?

jthig32 · 12-10-2009, 03:34 PM

Well in a perfect world Davis and Smoak are your 1B/DH of the future, and they make Lowell strictly a reserve player once Smoak comes up.

Male30Dan · 12-10-2009, 03:44 PM

In that respective order regarding positions?

jthig32 · 12-10-2009, 03:52 PM

Umm...hard to say. I'm not sure it really matters. Smoak was drafted with a reputation as an above average defender, and Davis showed that's he's going to provide good value defensively as well.

I just meant Davis and Smoak are playing 1B/DH. Who plays which probably varies fairly regularly, I would think.

muzak · 12-10-2009, 04:25 PM

Any update on Byrd? I liked him. On the other hand, we'd get more Borbon, no?

92bDad · 12-10-2009, 05:23 PM

This is getting to be old news...The Rangers sign a hyped up "Ace"...oh and they let go of thier current "Ace"

When will the Rangers actually ADD a player/pitcher without giving one up?

Say what will about Millwood, he had the 8th lowest ERA in the AL and finished the highest of any Ranger Pitcher since 1997!!! Add to that the innings he ate up, and the heart he showed, without once mouthing off with some poor excuse...he lead by example and showed the young pitchers coming up through the system, what it meant to be a workman like pitcher who gave it all he had to the team.

So let's get this straight...the Rangers traded $12M...oh wait, they paid $3M of that 12 so really they got rid of $9M in salary. Then they signed a pitcher for one year at $7.5 Mil...so they saved a total of $1.5Mil or less than 10% of the original contracted amount for 2010. Now, how much will they spend on pitchers and others who have to make up the roster space when Harden is injured yet again...all with the hope that he provides "Ace" stuff...

This appears to be a wash, if not a loss...yet for some reason, the Rangers are being praised.

How about the Rangers Keep Millwood and Add Harden...now that would be worth praising the Rangers...

If Harden pitches over 180 Innings and has a lower ERA than 3.90 with at least 13 wins...then it's an even wash and we are no better than we were before...if he exceeds those numbers...say 200+ innings, 3.20 ERA and 18 wins, then we can mark it up as an improvement...I guess will have to wait and see.

Oh and of course with that $1.5 Mil, you still have to pay for the reliever they got and the player to be named later...

Seems like the Rangers did a whole lot of nothing, spinning wheels, getting media head lines and causing trees to fall in woods....

dalmations202 · 12-10-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male28Dan

Of course having an absolute dominant closer with Frankie/CJ/Ray/etc... as bullpen arms is quite attractive too. Really with someone that good you can't go wrong, as long as he pitches for your team! Good problem to have, that is for sure.

Harden
Feldman
Holland
Feliz
Hunter

w/Frankie OR CJ closing

OR

Harden
Feldman
Holland
Hunter
McCarthy

w/Feliz closing

OR, best yet

Harden
Sheets
Feldman
Holland
Feliz

w/Frankie OR CJ closing...

Give me #3 with everyone healthy.

dalmations202 · 12-10-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male28Dan

<snip>

C - Salty/Teagarden
1B - Smoak/Davis
2B - Kinsler
SS - Andrus
3B - Young
LF - Hamilton
CF - Borbon
RF - Cruz
DH - Davis/Lowell

Thoughts?

What about Murphy? Is Byrd resigned? Can Hamilton get back to form? How much DH does Cruz get? Which version of Crash do you get? Is Kinsler going to start hitting for avg again instead of always swinging for the fences?

Pitching is always THE question though.

Murphy3 · 12-10-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

you can make a legitament argument that last year was millwoods worst year as a ranger. The rangers defense just made up for a ton of that. Hardens 140 innings are worth alot more than millwoods 180. The issue is, harden isnt exactly a guarantee to pitch 140 innings. If harden gives us 140+ innings, hell be a huge improvement.

Also if the talk that this could be a preamble to throwing ray at the rays for navarro are true, i really like this deal.

You can make that argument..but it would be a very bad argument.

Murphy3 · 12-10-2009, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Male28Dan

The big question is where does Chris Davis get his at bats when Smoak comes up? Does he DH? Do they split time? If he is the DH, then what of Lowell? Does Lowell play every single game that any one of Young/Smoak/Davis takes a day off, (Young off - Lowell plays 3rd, Smoak off - Davis plays 1st and Lowell is DH, Davis off - Lowell is DH), and only then? Does Davis only DH when a Righty starts and Lowell only DH when a Lefty starts?

Assuming that we only have the players that we have discussed, here is how I see our starting lineup, (certainly not in the proper batting order), 1 month into the season:

C - Salty/Teagarden
1B - Smoak/Davis
2B - Kinsler
SS - Andrus
3B - Young
LF - Hamilton
CF - Borbon
RF - Cruz
DH - Davis/Lowell

Thoughts?

Smoak can use another year in the minors. If he forces his way to the majors before that, then it's a great problem to have. However, if Davis finds his stroke at the plate, then you'll likely see Smoak and Davis in the lineup in 2011.

Murphy3 · 12-10-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

What about Murphy? Is Byrd resigned? Can Hamilton get back to form? How much DH does Cruz get? Which version of Crash do you get? Is Kinsler going to start hitting for avg again instead of always swinging for the fences?

Pitching is always THE question though.

1. Murphy is likely the 4th outfielder and part time DH
2. Byrd is gone unless for some reason he hasn't signed with anyone by the time the Rangers have a new ownership group in place.
3. I wouldn't expect Hamilton to be one of the very best offensive players in the league. But, I would be surprised if he's not at least playing at a borderline all-star level.
4. I don't expect Cruz to get alot of time at DH. He's considered a good fielding outfielder even though he's prone to making some mistakes on routine plays.
5. That is one of the million dollar questions. He hit for a solid average once returning to the majors last year. However, his power numbers were down. But, if you watched the games, you saw that he was hitting the ball really well but just missing doubles and HR's. So, we'll see.
6. Kinsler seems like a mental midget to me. I think we'll see something in between last year and 2008. That will be fine with me. If he can hit .280 with pop, then he's an obvious plus offensively at the second base position.

7. Yes, pitching is always an issue..but not nearly as much of an issue last year when compared to hitting.

Five-ofan · 12-11-2009, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

You can make that argument..but it would be a very bad argument.

Well you can make any argument so saying you can make an argument isnt saying much(and i know thats your point.) However, he had the worst WAR, TRA, FIP, XFIP, K/9, K/BB and HR/9 of his rangers career. He was just insanely lucky with his BABIP and his strand rate. I do think that part of his BABIP was his lower ld% but mostly it was luck.

As for the smoak comments, I dont think thats a problem just yet. I love the guy as a prospect and think he will be amazing but theres almost no way he wins that job out of spring training without an injury. Hes not on the 40 man roster and he couldnt hit triple A pitching last year(i know he was coming off of an injury) so theres no reason to rush him unless he forces the issue.

As far as the pitching, I am extremely excited. Im also interested to see what they do with feliz(i want him starting but i can see the appeal of leaving him in the pen).

Harden
Feldman
Holland
Hunter
Feliz

is a very good rotation. Harden, feliz, holland is one of the best 3somes in baseball in terms of pure stuff if they choose to go with feliz in that role and feldman and hunter both just get the job done. The big key is i think our bullpen is gonna be nasty either way.

FF, CJ, Oday(he always gets forgotten) is a great foundation. If you throw feliz in, i think its the best backend in baseball. Ray has also never been particularly good but he does have the kind of arm that could put it together and be darn good in a pen. Nippert and mccarthy in long relief could be darn good too. Plus snyder as a loogy, and you have a pretty dominating bullpen(though bullpens are always prone to unexpected sucking). Im really excited about this team. I do think we may have one more big move though.

Male30Dan · 12-11-2009, 10:39 AM

See my post above, which states the following:

If you asked me if I would be cool with trading Millwood and Max Ramirez for Snyder, (a LOOGY with great lefty splits - rule 5 pick), Harden, Ray, and Lowell, (who is a good hitting righty with a good OBP to play some first, DH, and provide insurance at 3B if Young gets injured again), I would have told you FING YES rather than just YES.

Yes, having both would have been great, but JD did the best he could considering how he was handcuffed. I think whether or not this is a win is all based on whether or not Harden can stay healthy. That is a huge IF but, then again, 140 innings of Harden and 60 innings of McCarthy/Nippert/Davis is worth more to me than 200 innings of Millwood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92bDad

This is getting to be old news...The Rangers sign a hyped up "Ace"...oh and they let go of thier current "Ace"

When will the Rangers actually ADD a player/pitcher without giving one up?

Say what will about Millwood, he had the 8th lowest ERA in the AL and finished the highest of any Ranger Pitcher since 1997!!! Add to that the innings he ate up, and the heart he showed, without once mouthing off with some poor excuse...he lead by example and showed the young pitchers coming up through the system, what it meant to be a workman like pitcher who gave it all he had to the team.

So let's get this straight...the Rangers traded $12M...oh wait, they paid $3M of that 12 so really they got rid of $9M in salary. Then they signed a pitcher for one year at $7.5 Mil...so they saved a total of $1.5Mil or less than 10% of the original contracted amount for 2010. Now, how much will they spend on pitchers and others who have to make up the roster space when Harden is injured yet again...all with the hope that he provides "Ace" stuff...

This appears to be a wash, if not a loss...yet for some reason, the Rangers are being praised.

How about the Rangers Keep Millwood and Add Harden...now that would be worth praising the Rangers...

If Harden pitches over 180 Innings and has a lower ERA than 3.90 with at least 13 wins...then it's an even wash and we are no better than we were before...if he exceeds those numbers...say 200+ innings, 3.20 ERA and 18 wins, then we can mark it up as an improvement...I guess will have to wait and see.

Oh and of course with that $1.5 Mil, you still have to pay for the reliever they got and the player to be named later...

Seems like the Rangers did a whole lot of nothing, spinning wheels, getting media head lines and causing trees to fall in woods....

Male30Dan · 12-11-2009, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalmations202

What about Murphy? Is Byrd resigned? Can Hamilton get back to form? How much DH does Cruz get? Which version of Crash do you get? Is Kinsler going to start hitting for avg again instead of always swinging for the fences?

Pitching is always THE question though.

Murphy is definitely a 4th outfielder with some DH, (unless Smoak is up - then he gets no DH at bats in my opinion). Byrd is gone - even JD said so. I think he will never be what he was in that first half of 08, but like Murphy, I think he is a borderline all-star, which along with Cruz playing at that level, and Borbon makes up a pretty damn good outfield. I think no DH for Cruz. Who knows about Crash - hopefully the K issue is gone at the level we saw prior to getting sent down. I don't know if the changes he made were a direct result in the power numbers going down or not but if he can push them back up without returning to the K monster it will be a much improved year. Who knows about Kinsler - dude is a hacker. He has a lot of Blalock in him - stupidity. Great player, but who knows if he will ever put it all together.

Male30Dan · 12-11-2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Smoak can use another year in the minors. If he forces his way to the majors before that, then it's a great problem to have. However, if Davis finds his stroke at the plate, then you'll likely see Smoak and Davis in the lineup in 2011.

Man I hope you and Thiggy are wrong. I would love to toss his ass in the fire in '10, (just after we have his control for an additional year and he can be added to the 40), much like we did with Elvis. If he struggles, fine, send him down, but assuming he plays well in Spring Training that is definitely what I would do. If he succeeds at the MLB level, AWESOME, and if not, no worries - send him to AAA which he should definitely succeed in after seeing MLB pitching. That raises his confidence to an all time high, (seeing as how he hasn't hit that great there yet), and then he is really ready for that final call-up.

He is a lot like Feliz though - either way you can't lose. Later, earlier, either way you are going to have a Fing stud.

92bDad · 12-11-2009, 10:51 AM

I'm just thinking that Millwood was underappreciated by many Ranger fans. Honestly, I believe the club has some who underappreciated him...or he would not have been traded.

It's not total doom and gloom, but I just see this as a wash at best. Which is what the Rangers have historically done.

I can't remember the names, but it appears that when the Rangers sign or bring on a quality or perceived quality pitcher...they also let one go. Sele, Rogers...there are countless others, I just can't recall the names.

Adding Harden is a good gamble...if he stays healthy and returns to form, he's a nasty pitcher...Imagine adding him with Millwood...now you have options over the final 3 spots along with the bullpen...and if the young guys pan out (Holland/Feliz) as starters...then all of sudden, you would have trade bait at the mid season point.

As it is now, you have to hope, pray, wish...whatever, that all the pieces fall into place...and history shows us that they rarely if ever do.

Personally, I would have liked to seen the Rangers keep Millwood as a steady insurance.

One more year to help with the building of the yound staff. But I'm beating a dead horse.

It's like when a team traded away Jason Kidd for Devin Harris...I'm sure the Nets thougt that they got the better end of that deal...but a couple of years later, it appears as though the workhorse of Kidd was better than the youthful excitement of Harris.

The Rangers are the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over, while expecting a different result.

Male30Dan · 12-11-2009, 10:54 AM

And man - what becomes of Hurley and Harrison, among many others. Those guys are talented pitchers that are young and just haven't completely found their groove yet. Much like Five-O said about forgetting O'Day, these guys often get forgotten as well. This team has a lot of pitching talent, that is for sure.

Male30Dan · 12-11-2009, 10:57 AM

Would you make the trade or not - the one I listed above? Look at it like the Rangers being the Mavs and we were over the cap and unable to SIGN someone. Would you make the trade as I have it listed? If so, relax and deal with the fact that we have a horrible owner and this time next year HOPEFULLY these handcuffs are off. If not, you are dumb. You pick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92bDad

I'm just thinking that Millwood was underappreciated by many Ranger fans. Honestly, I believe the club has some who underappreciated him...or he would not have been traded.

It's not total doom and gloom, but I just see this as a wash at best. Which is what the Rangers have historically done.

I can't remember the names, but it appears that when the Rangers sign or bring on a quality or perceived quality pitcher...they also let one go. Sele, Rogers...there are countless others, I just can't recall the names.

Adding Harden is a good gamble...if he stays healthy and returns to form, he's a nasty pitcher...Imagine adding him with Millwood...now you have options over the final 3 spots along with the bullpen...and if the young guys pan out (Holland/Feliz) as starters...then all of sudden, you would have trade bait at the mid season point.

As it is now, you have to hope, pray, wish...whatever, that all the pieces fall into place...and history shows us that they rarely if ever do.

Personally, I would have liked to seen the Rangers keep Millwood as a steady insurance.

One more year to help with the building of the yound staff. But I'm beating a dead horse.

It's like when a team traded away Jason Kidd for Devin Harris...I'm sure the Nets thougt that they got the better end of that deal...but a couple of years later, it appears as though the workhorse of Kidd was better than the youthful excitement of Harris.

The Rangers are the definition of insanity...doing the same thing over and over, while expecting a different result.

92bDad · 12-11-2009, 11:20 AM

No doubt the Rangers are handcuffed by the current owner and his financial problems.

As for the trade, I'm still very hesitant...again, I see Millwood as a key factor as to why this team's pitching was a high point of last season, and a main reason why the youth was able to step it up for the Rangers.

I believe that losing him will hurt this club and that it will set them back a few years.

Millwood, like him or not, was a leader by example type of guy and I'm concerned that they could be a but rutterless without him. None of the names you proposed the Rangers getting in return do anything for me...in terms of a swap. Again, if you are adding them without losing Millwood, then I'm a bit interested...but I see a ton of UNreliable players.

Kinda makes me think of Tracy McGrady...nasty stuff for an NBA Player, but will he stay on the court long enough to help my team win?

Sorry, if you believe I'm dumb for not liking the trade proposal...it's just a difference of opinion, nothing more.

But on that note, this ownership and team finances need to be figured out quickly, or the progress that JD and company have made over the past 3 years, will all be for not in one broke down/poor $$$ offseason.

Male30Dan · 12-11-2009, 11:32 AM

Good read...

Here ya go...

Male30Dan · 12-11-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 92bDad

No doubt the Rangers are handcuffed by the current owner and his financial problems.

As for the trade, I'm still very hesitant...again, I see Millwood as a key factor as to why this team's pitching was a high point of last season, and a main reason why the youth was able to step it up for the Rangers.

I believe that losing him will hurt this club and that it will set them back a few years.

Millwood, like him or not, was a leader by example type of guy and I'm concerned that they could be a but rutterless without him. None of the names you proposed the Rangers getting in return do anything for me...in terms of a swap. Again, if you are adding them without losing Millwood, then I'm a bit interested...but I see a ton of UNreliable players.

Kinda makes me think of Tracy McGrady...nasty stuff for an NBA Player, but will he stay on the court long enough to help my team win?

Sorry, if you believe I'm dumb for not liking the trade proposal...it's just a difference of opinion, nothing more.

But on that note, this ownership and team finances need to be figured out quickly, or the progress that JD and company have made over the past 3 years, will all be for not in one broke down/poor $$$ offseason.

As you wish - but you are absolutely in the minority my friend.