At DB.com If All Else Fails ... my idea for the Mavs ideal backup trade option - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

DLord · 02-18-2009, 12:46 PM

At db.com, detailed article on If All Else Fails (what should be the Mavs' backup option if they can't find the super homerun deal)

The short version ... in this climate, I see an obvious window of opportunity to upgrade via trade (includes full discussion of which teams the Mavs look to be competing with as a buyer of salary, who else may or may not be in the picture, and how that positions Dallas in the market)

My preference ...Shaq (Shaq-Barnes-Hill for Stack-JHo-Williams)
Next ....a Gasol-ish homerun
The If All Else Fails ... Salmons/Moore from Sacramento for Stack/Wright

Why is this my If All Else Fails choice?

Salmons ...oft-discussed upgrade, isn't the Gasol-ish homerun but will improve the team by adding another starter-level talent

Moore ...a backup center of some use who thrived alongside Kidd in NJ
...but more importantly, he (a) makes the trade-matching on a deal for Salmons work and in a sweeter way for Sac, and (b) the super part for the Mavs would be, his contract is just like Stackhouse's, only partly guaranteed for 09-10, so they can get him now and trade him in May-June - giving a second/backup shot to swing for the homerun at a time when you can also combine Carroll's shrinking deal to help get to a much bigger salary dump for another team and when there will be few if any competitors who can or will be offering instant salary reduction to a desperate team

Fuller details in the article on the DallasBasketball.com HOMEpage http://www.dallasbasketba...om/fullColumn.php?id=1344

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

My preference ...Shaq (Shaq-Barnes-Hill for Stack-JHo-Williams)
Next ....a Gasol-ish homerun
The If All Else Fails ... Salmons/Moore from Sacramento for Stack/Wright

Obviously a Shaq/Barnes/Hill deal is at the top of the list (and even more Gasol-ish than the Gasol deal) and Salmons/Moore is obviously a better move than nothing...

Just wondering where the Jamison/Butler for Howard/Stack+ idea sits... It doesn't look as sexy as Shaq, but it certainly looks better than Carter or any other ideas floating around... What would be the reality (if there even is one) of swinging such a deal?

grndmstr_c · 02-18-2009, 01:01 PM

The latest update I saw on ESPN's website said the Wiz might be looking to hold on to Jamison, and that Cleveland was starting to look elsewhere. Who knows if that's a smokescreen or not...

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Who knows if that's a smokescreen or not...

Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)

I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...

BGMaverick9 · 02-18-2009, 01:12 PM

I'd like to see more concrete information today about anything! It just sounds like randomness is flying all over the place about rumors. We just need some dominoes to start falling and see where we fit in the process.

DubOverdose · 02-18-2009, 01:16 PM

I have a feeling we're not going to make any big trades. Maybe one or two end of bench type trades.

grndmstr_c · 02-18-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)

I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...

Marion for JO and Chandler to OKC come to mind, actually.

Edit: oh yeah, and there was that little Jason Kidd/Devin Harris bit.

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I'd like to see more concrete information today about anything! It just sounds like randomness is flying all over the place about rumors. We just need some dominoes to start falling and see where we fit in the process.

Ain't that the truth - it seems like Dallas' name is attached to every available player on the market... I think a lot of the rumors and counter rumors flying around are intended to drive up (or down) asking prices... All of a sudden, San Antonio's name is popping up as an alternative for every Dallas trade rumor - coincidence?

Murphy3 · 02-18-2009, 01:26 PM

doesn't this belong in the trade and draft forum?

BGMaverick9 · 02-18-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Ain't that the truth - it seems like Dallas' name is attached to every available player on the market... I think a lot of the rumors and counter rumors flying around are intended to drive up (or down) asking prices... All of a sudden, San Antonio's name is popping up as an alternative for every Dallas trade rumor - coincidence?

I think we deserve a fair amount of blame for associating ourselves with everyone out in the market.

That's just how we roll with the fantasy GM'ing. I think it's a pretty short list of players we'd actually consider looking at:

Shaq and Phoenix Parts
Salmons and/or Miller and minor Sacramento Parts

the real outside glance is at someone from Washington. That seems like a team you can pounce on. The rest is probably just randomness trying to stick.

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Marion for JO and Chandler to OKC come to mind, actually.

Edit: oh yeah, and there was that little Jason Kidd/Devin Harris bit.

I was going to mention the Kidd trade, but that rumor had been circulating for years before it finally went down (and nobody could have predicted the details of that trade when it did...)

Marion for J.O. was definitely a strong possibility, but Chandler to OKC seemed like a long shot considering how well the Hornets were rolling along... I suppose you can throw any idea to a wall to see if it sticks then claim you knew it was going to happen, but I don't think a lot of people took the Chandler to OKC idea seriously (I guess people do crazy sh!t when money is tight...)

No doubt I exaggerated, but for every "Marion for JO" rumor you have, there's an "Iverson for Billups" and "Gasol for Kwame" trade that comes out of left field...

Kidd Karma · 02-18-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)

I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...

Kidd-Marbury was rumored by Vescey back in February 2001, he was early by about oh.....5 months. Some stick and some don't. That Chandler trade was rumored Monday and went down Tuesday.

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Kidd-Marbury was rumored by Vescey back in February 2001, he was early by about oh.....5 months. Some stick and some don't. That Chandler trade was rumored Monday and went down Tuesday.

Something rumored Monday that goes down Tuesday is pretty much the definition of "out of left field" by NBA standards...

(that's probably part of why the Kidd trade got botched - too much national press coverage for too long really made us look desperate to close the deal, which allowed NJ to jack up the price - I blame Marc Stein!)

TheMaverick · 02-18-2009, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Obviously a Shaq/Barnes/Hill deal is at the top of the list (and even more Gasol-ish than the Gasol deal) and Salmons/Moore is obviously a better move than nothing...

Just wondering where the Jamison/Butler for Howard/Stack+ idea sits... It doesn't look as sexy as Shaq, but it certainly looks better than Carter or any other ideas floating around... What would be the reality (if there even is one) of swinging such a deal?

A Jamison/Butler move would be the sexiness idea out of all of em. And it would trump the Gasol trade.

DLord · 02-18-2009, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)

I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...

I understand what you mean. But let me give you a few items of feedback on the issues you raise ...

1. All deals are unlikely. Period.

2. While we think trades spring fully done from nowhere, do they really? Last year we heard about Kidd for WEEKS before it happened. Marion-O'Neal has been reported as being discussed for a couple months, maybe? NO is willing to dump Chandler and is looking for a buyer, 2 weeks ago. Maybe OKC only cropped up days before it happened as the buyer, but in general the deal wasn't a surprise at all. Diop to Charlotte? It was no surprise at all.

I suspect often these ideas are like a woman shopping for a dress. They try it on, doesn't quite fit, try on something similar and still doesn't fit, then aha there's the fit.

Okay, the Cassell tax-avoiding salary dump from Boston to the Kings, and the Aker tax-avoiding salary dump from Detroit to the Clipps, both came from nowhere.

3. I think a lot of these things leak out - along with fake ideas and failed ideas - so I fall back on "what makes sense" to try to separate wheat from chaff. That is to say, if something rumored looks like a deal that could meet both teams needs, it probably makes sense to them as well. And if it somewhere doesn't pass the sniff test, then one or both teams have probably tossed the idea in the dumper or it was never truly on the table.

4. The "trade targets/ideas" I offer at db.com come from the fact that there is evidence somewhere that those players are being shopped or their teams are in the trade mix. Is Salmons truly being discussed by the Mavs? I'd say yes, because I suspect they are looking at virtually EVERY available player and trying to figure who fits.

Shaq? Now on that one, while we know Phx was looking to deal and he was mentioned, I really don't know what if anything is being discussed. I started that idea, it's gained traction in the discussions because many think it makes sense, but I don't make the deals. If it's an active item between Dallas and Phx then they've kept it super quiet. It makes perfect sense to me from BOTH sides, given the Mavs needs and the Suns money issues, so that's why we keep talking about it.

5. I don't have any knowledge the Mavs are specifically targeting Salmons. I see the reports on Salmons and others, and like you I take them with a grain of salt.

6. But there is an undisputed trifecta that brings ME to mention Salmons, which is (a) the Kings are desperate to move salary, (b) the Mavs are looking for such a trade partner, and (c) when considering salary match, assets, and fit, Salmons makes the most sense to me of which Kings player they might have atop their list. And I'm a big Occam's Razor guy - ie given everything in play, Salmons looks like the most logical, so that makes it the likeliest outcome.

That sort of logic of course is why I also have focused on Shaq. Suns need to move money, Mavs are looking for that team, and Shaq would seem to be the player that Phx would be willing to move and the Mavs would welcome.

7. And all that having been said, let me repeat the most important fact to remember: All deals are unlikely. Period.

I give my ideas, my hopes, my logic, but at the end of the day, who knows.

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

I understand what you mean. But let me give you a few items of feedback on the issues you raise ...

1. All deals are unlikely. Period.
.
.
.

I give my ideas, my hopes, my logic, but at the end of the day, who knows.

Dammit, DLord - my heart doesn't have any use for "reality" over the next 24 hours!

Look me in the eyes and tell me, "everything's going to be okay - we're getting Shaq..."

EDIT: sorry about taking DLord's name in vain - I know how people around here hate that!

Usually Lurkin · 02-18-2009, 02:23 PM

if all else fails . . .
"punch Cuban in the stomach night" at the AAC

TheMaverick · 02-18-2009, 02:23 PM

Give me

Kidd/JET
Butler/JET
Jamison/George
Dirk/Singleton
Damp/Hollins

over any Shaq line-up.

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaverick

Give me

Kidd/JET
Butler/JET
Jamison/George
Dirk/Singleton
Damp/Hollins

over any Shaq line-up.

Agreed, but there aren't any actual rumors about that trade floating around - just a bunch of speculation and what-ifs on the boards (and none of them realistic...)

Same could be said about Shaq, but at least those rumors can actually play out in reality - I'm still wondering how you'd get both Jamison and Butler here for the price of Howard/Stack (you'd probably have to toss Josh's pot dealer into the mix because the Wizard's FO would have to be high to pull the trigger...)

Dtownsfinest · 02-18-2009, 02:35 PM

I just want to know where did this trade for Shaq with a West rival all of a sudden become a possibility? I mean not trying to sound like a prick but i've been hearing it around Dallas all week. And the fact that the Suns just fired Porter isn't that a sign they're staying pat?

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-18-2009, 02:39 PM

I still think Stack should be moved for at least something that can contribute. Even if it's a plan C or D move. Team needs are a 2 guard or a 5. Possibly a back-up pg.

Get crackin!

dalmations202 · 02-18-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I just want to know where did this trade for Shaq with a West rival all of a sudden become a possibility? I mean not trying to sound like a prick but i've been hearing it around Dallas all week. And the fact that the Suns just fired Porter isn't that a sign they're staying pat?

It became possible because of $$$$$. That green trumps basically everything else.

Them firing Porter might mean standing pat, or might mean a more running offense which Shaq is too old for.

Lots of speculation and thoughts on this one.

If they move Amare, then I think they keep Shaq. If they move Shaq, I think they keep Amare. Which way are they going to go, or are they just going to keep a high paid 9th place team, and keep losing money?

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I just want to know where did this trade for Shaq with a West rival all of a sudden become a possibility?

Because nobody in the East can afford him...

Mark Cuban is one of the only people willing to pay for Shaq right now (if the Suns plan on shipping him...)

Sportstudi · 02-18-2009, 02:43 PM

After Josh's pathetic play against Boston even Cubes should have noticed that this guy needs to be moved

dalmations202 · 02-18-2009, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I still think Stack should be moved for at least something that can contribute. Even if it's a plan C or D move. Team needs are a 2 guard or a 5. Possibly a back-up pg.

Get crackin!

How about...........
Plan C or D or even F,G or H.

Three way trade with the partner Portland wants - where Portland uses Raef's expiring, and Dallas uses Stack -- and Dallas gets back Webster, Sergio Rod, and Channing Frye ---- all backup parts for Portland who would contribute here.

TheMaverick · 02-18-2009, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Agreed, but there aren't any actual rumors about that trade floating around - just a bunch of speculation and what-ifs on the boards (and none of them realistic...)

Same could be said about Shaq, but at least those rumors can actually play out in reality - I'm still wondering how you'd get both Jamison and Butler here for the price of Howard/Stack (you'd probably have to toss Josh's pot dealer into the mix because the Wizard's FO would have to be high to pull the trigger...)

I consider Shaq trade talks are all speculation as well.

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaverick

I consider Shaq trade talks are all speculation as well.

I suppose we'll find out in a little less than 24 hours...

(why do I feel blue balls setting in?)

MX425 · 02-18-2009, 03:30 PM

I am getting the feeling that tomorrow will be like the first christmas you are old enough to realize there is no Santa Claus.

And then you find out all your parents got you was a new pair of undershirts.

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MX425

I am getting the feeling that tomorrow will be like the first christmas you are old enough to realize there is no Santa Claus.

And then you find out all your parents got you was a new pair of undershirts.

DevinHarriswillstart · 02-18-2009, 03:50 PM

Rumors are crazy around the league. Depending on what rumors you read, every team is either active or...not active in trade talks. It's like a hurricane of gossip that can't be decoded.

Windmill360 · 02-18-2009, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Speaking of smokescreens - this potential trade with the Kings for Salmons has gotten SOOO much attention on DB.com that it's really starting to feel like a screen for something bigger (although the same could be said for the Shaq proposal screening something smaller...)

I mean - when's the last time you saw a RUMORED trade go down in the NBA? The big deals always seem to come out of left field...

except for the Kidd trade.

MX425 · 02-18-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Question: If I have hated this guy for as long as he has played, and think he is a pretty big tool, but am hoping every day to see him in my teams uniform, am I a sell-out?

darkwitzki · 02-18-2009, 03:56 PM

No trades made by Cubes as of today, maybe tommorow..

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windmill360

except for the Kidd trade.

See posts #11 & #13...

(I should probably just edit the post you quoted so I can stop defending my statement...)

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MX425

Question: If I have hated this guy for as long as he has played, and think he is a pretty big tool, but am hoping every day to see him in my teams uniform, am I a sell-out?

If you ever get the chance to sell-out...... TAKE IT!

(why should fans be the only participants of the NBA with any integrity?)

Windmill360 · 02-18-2009, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

See posts #11 & #13...

(I should probably just edit the post you quoted so I can stop defending my statement...)

No! all your attempts are futile! you lose the game UD, you lose!

Underdog · 02-18-2009, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windmill360

No! all your attempts are futile! you lose the game UD, you lose!

/pwn't

DLord · 02-18-2009, 04:04 PM

Some sources I trust say that Salmons-Miller to Chicago is close to done and could happen shortly. We'll see. If so, it cuts a chunk off the Kings payroll for next season - but in the long run, the money is virtually a wash. The Kings prefer that trade over mine that would have saved them $10M or more in payroll? Argggg.

Let me add: don't believe this until it's actually announced. At this time of year, there's smoke everywhere as teams try to drive up the price. So having heard this is super-close, at the same time when I look at it based on what the teams say they want, I have to think, "The Kings REALLY are going to go this direction. REALLY?" And I also have a hard time seeing how it's all that great for Chicago, frankly. But it's their decision not mine.

Windmill360 · 02-18-2009, 04:05 PM

we are goners.

jthig32 · 02-18-2009, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DLord

Some sources I trust say that Salmons-Miller to Chicago is close to done and could happen shortly. We'll see. If so, it cuts a chunk off the Kings payroll for next season - but in the long run, the money is virtually a wash. The Kings prefer that trade over mine that would have saved them $10M or more in payroll? Argggg.

If that's the case I predict that we don't do anything.

And that saddens me.