Finley's shot, 34 Lineup, Howard update - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsFanFinley · 10-31-2003, 12:32 AM

Finley is waiting patiently for his shot
Mavs look elsewhere for offense in first two games of season

Thursday, October 30, 2003
By EDDIE SEFKO / The Dallas Morning News

OAKLAND, Calif. – If the Mavericks' roster stays like it is for an extended stretch – and that's always a risky assumption – the key to making it work is going to be sacrifice by one and all.

Right now, Michael Finley is doing all the sacrificing.

"Yeah," he said Thursday, "but my time will come."

Finley is accepting a still-choppy offense that has afforded him only eight shots per game during the Mavericks' 1-1 start. He has been the forgotten man, which hasn't helped him dial in his shot as he's 5-of-16 from the field.

With Antoine Walker and Antawn Jamison, the Mavericks now have five prolific scoring weapons. Finley, Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki have embraced the new duo into their VIP section of the roster.

Winning, of course, is the ultimate goal and the salve that will heal any bruised feelings when it comes to anybody's reduced role in the offense. And Finley believes the feeling-out process for this team will not last forever.

"Everybody who is used to scoring will get an opportunity to score," Finley said. "But if the shot isn't falling, then you have to do something else to help the team. So I've worked on rebounding the first two games. But when my number is called [offensively], I'm going to be ready."

Finley had 10 rebounds in the 95-87 victory over Golden State on Wednesday. Through two games, he's averaging only 9.5 points. After notaveraging fewer than 19.3 points the last six seasons, it seems logical Finley will have times when he is the focal point of the offense.

Against the Warriors, it was Nowitzki who had the offense going through him. He had smaller defenders trying to contain him and rose above them continually for midrange jumpers, canning 29 points. And although Finley struggled offensively most of the way, he did make the 3-pointer that sewed up the game in the final minute.

Only then was coach Don Nelson able to heave a sigh of relief that the season-opening trip to the West Coast was not a total loss.

"We had to win that game," Nelson said. "We needed to start playing better, and we just couldn't leave that arena without coming away with a win."

Still, the Mavericks couldn't shake Golden State until the fourth quarter, when Nowitzki and Walker went to work.

"We're too good of a shooting team for the shots to not start falling," Walker said. "We're so deep that we're going to get mismatches on the court. Against Golden State, it was Dirk that had the mismatches, so we took advantage."

Nelson goes with players he knows

Coach Don Nelson did not want his team to start the season 0-2, so he treated Wednesday's game virtually as a must-win situation. For that reason, he went with players in the second half who know his system best. That's why Antawn Jamison, Danny Fortson and Tony Delk all spent most of the time on the bench.

"I went with guys who I knew would at least be in the right spots on the court," Nelson said. "What I had to do is not worry about hurting anybody's feelings and go with what would win the game for us."

Nelson said more of what he calls his 34 lineup (three power forwards on the floor together, as in three players at the four position), will be showing up on the court as the Mavericks begin to get a better feel for playing as a team.

Briefly ...

Rookie Josh Howard sat out the second half against Golden State with a sprained right ankle. He had X-rays that showed no structural damage, but the team listed him as doubtful for Saturday's home opener against Utah.

FreshJive · 10-31-2003, 12:53 AM

Quote:

his 34 lineup (three power forwards on the floor together

Does he mean Tawn, Toine, and Dirk or Dirk, Toine, and Fortson? I guess you could throw Najera in and say he means any combo of these five.

LRB · 10-31-2003, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: FreshJive

Quote:

his 34 lineup (three power forwards on the floor together

Does he mean Tawn, Toine, and Dirk or Dirk, Toine, and Fortson? I guess you could throw Najera in and say he means any combo of these five.

Dirk, Toine, and Fortson are 2 power forwards with a baked potato on the side. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

MavsFanFinley · 10-31-2003, 01:17 AM

I think the 34 lineup is Dirk, Walker, and Najera.

Instead of forcing guys to fit and chance losing, it sounds like Nelson wants to win and bring the others along slowly. It shouldn't be a problem as the lineup of Dirk, Najera, Walker, Finley, and Nash looked stable against GS.

FreshJive · 10-31-2003, 01:22 AM

Dirk Fortson and Najera is a power forward and a baked potato with sour cream and Bacon bits

But that still doesn't answer my question. It sounds good if he means running Najera and Fortson in and out with two scorers, but I don't think of Twan, Toine, and Dirk should be on the floor with a couple of gaurds.

LRB · 10-31-2003, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
I think the 34 lineup is Dirk, Walker, and Najera.

Instead of forcing guys to fit and chance losing, it sounds like Nelson wants to win and bring the others along slowly. It shouldn't be a problem as the lineup of Dirk, Najera, Walker, Finley, and Nash looked stable against GS.

MFF i don't have a problem with this, especially against the teams we'll be playing for the next few games. This lineup worked well to end the game. I just don't want to see the potato playing heavy minutes or Fin as SF so Delk can start.

MavsFanFinley · 10-31-2003, 01:32 AM

Quote:

"I went with guys who I knew would at least be in the right spots on the court," Nelson said. "What I had to do is not worry about hurting anybody's feelings and go with what would win the game for us."

To me, this sounds like we'll be seeing more of the Dirk, Najera, Walker, Finley, Nash lineup.

Nelson knows what to expect from 4 of those guys. And 4 of those guys have played a lot together and are comfortable with one another. From the GS game alone, it looked like Walker had been playing with those guys longer than a couple games.

Fortson will still likely start. And Jamison will still get his minutes, but I don't think we'll be seeing the big 5 lineup finish games for a while longer. I don't think we'll be seeing Delk as a starter again either.

FreshJive · 10-31-2003, 01:45 AM

Quote:

To me, this sounds like we'll be seeing more of the Dirk, Najera, Walker, Finley, Nash lineup.

That's what I would want. Walker does seem to mesh well with our existing players, and I prefer Eddie over Fortson at this point. I think Jamison should only be used as a sub for Walker or Dirk.

sike · 10-31-2003, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: FreshJive

Quote:

To me, this sounds like we'll be seeing more of the Dirk, Najera, Walker, Finley, Nash lineup.

That's what I would want. Walker does seem to mesh well with our existing players, and I prefer Eddie over Fortson at this point. I think Jamison should only be used as a sub for Walker or Dirk.

interesting....this new lineup that everyone seems to love has only one of our new guys....strange, where did all the let's play the big five talk go.....just a thought....
heres another thought: WHY DO BIRDS SUDDENLY APPEAR EVERY TIME YOU ARE NEAR??? if you have definitive answers for either question, please let me know.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

kingrex · 10-31-2003, 09:58 AM

The answer (not my answer) would be "Just like me they want to be close to you?"

Anyway, back to the mavs. Right now the mad scientist that is Nelson will mix and match to see what works.

The question is should the mavs sacrifice wins early in the season to work in the new guys now for wins later

OR

should they win now but reduce the time the "big 5" get to play together?

Murphy3 · 10-31-2003, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kingrex
The answer (not my answer) would be "Just like me they want to be close to you?"

Anyway, back to the mavs. Right now the mad scientist that is Nelson will mix and match to see what works.

The question is should the mavs sacrifice wins early in the season to work in the new guys now for wins later

OR

should they win now but reduce the time the "big 5" get to play together?

Is there any reason to believe that playing the 'big 5' together will be the Mavs best combination in the long run? I can't believe that it would. Sure, in certain situations it will. But, I doubt that it'll be the most effective unit that the mavs put on the floor.

sike · 10-31-2003, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3

Quote:

Originally posted by: kingrex
The answer (not my answer) would be "Just like me they want to be close to you?"

Anyway, back to the mavs. Right now the mad scientist that is Nelson will mix and match to see what works.

The question is should the mavs sacrifice wins early in the season to work in the new guys now for wins later

OR

should they win now but reduce the time the "big 5" get to play together?

Is there any reason to believe that playing the 'big 5' together will be the Mavs best combination in the long run? I can't believe that it would. Sure, in certain situations it will. But, I doubt that it'll be the most effective unit that the mavs put on the floor.

Murph, you have been hinting at this thought for the last couple days....

so in answer to your question..."is there any reason"....well, no, of course...they have not had the opportunity to prove it yet...and the few minutes they have played together have been covered with hesitancy and confusion...as should be expected..

if you are asking is there in Basketball sense in the idea....well, sense to who...common NBA big wigs....or Nellie?...certainly common hoop strategy would tell you that you cannot play or win without a center in the rotation. some has to clog the middle and grab boards...but it may make sense to the one who matters...Nellie

I you are asking if could work shots wise?...that is still unproven.....but you would think that it may not....unless these guys are ready to take a major cut in their stats....which some are and others not...

WILL IT BE THE MOST EFFECTIVE....IN WHAT WAY...CERTAINLY NOT DEFENSIVELY...BUT HOW ARE WE TO DEFINE EFFECTIVE:BY WINS, OR BY SOMEOTHER CRITERIA?
EVERYTHING IS STILL UNPROVEN..JUST THEORY...ALL IN OUR HEADS....EXCEPT FOR THE FEW MINUTES THEY HAVE STRUGGLED THROUGH... which have not look that good....yet[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

kingrex · 10-31-2003, 10:31 AM

Which is more important this grand experiment of Nellie's or wins?

I'm pretty sure Nellie is not too proud to adjust his strategy just to get his "small-ball can win a championship" theory proven.

Many have already said this, but I'll say it again. Let's give it time.

How much time are you the fan willing to give it?

sike · 10-31-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kingrex
The question is should the mavs sacrifice wins early in the season to work in the new guys now for wins later?

King, this really is the question....great point!

the answer is: you do whatever you can to ensure on your part the team's readiness for the playoffs.....

if you (Nellie) believe that the "B5" is going to be your main crew then yes, you sacrifice...but if not, you do whatever you can to make this group a killer playoff team...it all depends on what Nellie is thinking....(by the way is there a door that leads to his mind, it would be useful for sure)..I think the more Nellie sees of the "B5" line up, he will see the need to infuse Bradley and other more defensively minded guys more often...but you do whatever it takes to be playoff ready...even lose some early if that is what it takes...

Murphy3 · 10-31-2003, 10:37 AM

I'm not exactly looking for the Mavs to become a defensive team. But, the numbers showed last year that when the mavs went with NVE in the lineup, they weren't as effective when they went with a bigger lineup featuring one less scoring option.

Personally, I believe that if you throw 5 scorers out on the court, you'll end up not getting the ball enough to your best scoring option(s). Perhaps 2-3 of the scoring options would be more than willing to take a back seat to assure the ball gets to where it needs to be. However, I believe that it's more likely that all 5 of the players would have a green light at any time to put the ball up. Hopefully Nellie would at least discuss where he'd like the attempts to come from (much like he has probably done with walker).

But, I just can't see the offense being any better with 5 scoring options on the court than it would be with 3-4 scoring options.

And no, I'm not even necessarily advocating the use of a center or anyone else. I'm just saying that you have to have players that will do some things other than scoring...whether it's Bradley, Fortson, Howard, or Najera....(well, fortson can rebound..that's the only thing he can do)

Offensively, if you have Walker on the court as an additional option instead of NVE, the Mavs are already better on that side of the ball (that's without discussing the improvements that Dirk's made in the off season or even briinging up AJ....hell, or even bringing up the hopefully improved FG% of Fin)

kingrex · 10-31-2003, 10:41 AM

Having 5 scoring options will work if everyone is willing to find the best scoring option everytime down the court. The NBA has always been about mismatches. If all 5 will sacrifice their stats to the gods of NBA wins, then 5 scoring options will work.

We're just lucky enough to get to watch it night in and night out.

sike · 10-31-2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
Personally, I believe that if you throw 5 scorers out on the court, you'll end up not getting the ball enough to your best scoring option(s).

this is something I think we saw to some dagree in the LA game....Dirk was going well, and all of a sudden he just did not the ball anymore...
If this is the case...screw the B5 lineup and get the freakin ball to the man.....Nellie knows that his way in this world is though Dirk...or the hardline...whatever!

kingrex · 10-31-2003, 10:46 AM

In the LA game, part of the reason Dirk didn't see the ball again was the Lakers defense. They would force him to give it up. The challenge for this team is to find the other scoring options when the Dirk option has been taken away.

The better question might be, is it better to keep force feeding Dirk (since he is da' man), or to find other scoring options?

Murphy3 · 10-31-2003, 10:56 AM

Dirk was extremely successful in the LA game when he got the ball down low or when he drove to the bucket..his outside shot was simply off.

LA didn't do anything to really disrupt dirk's game... unless they strategically decided to leave him wide open from down town knowing that he'd go 0-6.

Chalk that up to Dirk just not getting the job done.

The Mavs are coming to a point to where they can actually play some inside/out ball. Get the ball inside to free up open looks for the perimeter players. Sure, the Mavs have been a great scoring team the past few years but they have had their share of struggles when forced to play almost exclusively from the half court set. Having the option to get the ball inside to either get a good look, get to the FT line, or draw the double and kick it to someone that's open is something that the mavs haven't done much of the past few years. No, this isn't just referring to Dirk...Jamison and AW can both score down in the paint.

Why are players such as Shaq and Duncan among the best in the league year in and year out in FG%, adjust FG%, PPS, and free throw attempts? Because they get the ball in a spot where they have an opportunity for a high success rate.

sike · 10-31-2003, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kingrex
In the LA game, part of the reason Dirk didn't see the ball again was the Lakers defense. They would force him to give it up. The challenge for this team is to find the other scoring options when the Dirk option has been taken away.

The better question might be, is it better to keep force feeding Dirk (since he is da' man), or to find other scoring options?

the answer to this is: both...you cant go away from Dirk..you could if he were just a good player, but not from a superstar..if that is what we say he is...you must go to your superstar....remember houston in her glory...most times it came down to the "dream shake" no matter who else they had at the time(that does not mean others don't take big shots, just that Dirk takes most of them)....but also, you need to have others who can take the preasue off Dirk...and those guys they have in abundance...

I don't really think LA did that good of a job on Dirk...like you say King....it seemed to me that whenever he got the ball he could do just about anything he wanted with it...despite the defense....oh well..

sike · 10-31-2003, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Murphy3
LA didn't do anything to really disrupt dirk's game... unless they strategically decided to leave him wide open from down town knowing that he'd go 0-6.

TRUTH!

kingrex · 10-31-2003, 11:09 AM

I think we all agree the Laker game is not the example of how we think the offense will work.

Therefore, my question was not specifically regarding the Laker game, so much as a philosophical question of having 1 go to guy on this team versus having 5 go to options at any given time?

u2sarajevo · 10-31-2003, 11:10 AM

Cuban talked about playing the "comfortable" lineup more(this morning on the Ticket). He was referring to the Dirk, Nash, Findawg, Najera, Walker lineup we saw in the second half(..the 34 lineup). Obviously we need to get continuity and flow established with our new players, but Nellie will have to rely on the "comfortable" lineup to get us back into games that have gotten out of control. Hopefully the balancing act that Nellie will have to do with the possible lineups he has available to him will get us through the gelling period while still providing us with some good wins.

Murphy3 · 10-31-2003, 11:12 AM

The Lakers will have two main go-to guys in Shaq and Kobe but players such as Payton and Malone will still get plenty of looks.

There's enough shots to go around for Dirk to be the go-to guy AND get 01-15 shots per game for the other 4 players.

And this does not mean that Dirk will lead the team in attempts every game.. there will be games where Walker gets more looks....and games where finley is on fire and should get more looks...and so on.

Dirk's by far the Mavs best offensive weapon. He needs to be used accordingly.

MavsFanFinley · 10-31-2003, 11:12 AM

Nelson puts egos on backburner

By Art Garcia
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

SAN FRANCISCO - Finding guys playing time and trying not to bruise egos isn't a chief concern for coach Don Nelson. Finding ways to win games with 12 players still unsure of how to work together has the Mavericks coach more than occupied.

So if Antawn Jamison -- making a homecoming of sorts Wednesday at Golden State -- plays 16 minutes against the Warriors, including none in the second half, so be it.

"That's not going to happen that much," Nelson said of the cameo appearance by the Warriors' former franchise player. "What I had to do was just not worry about anybody's feelings. I had to win that game ... So I went with what won games last year for us."

Dirk Nowitzki (29 points and 15 rebounds), Steve Nash (16 points and 11 assists) and Michael Finley (10 rebounds) did their usual part, as the Mavs (1-1) beat Golden State 95-87. After playing sparingly in Tuesday's opener at the Los Angeles Lakers, Eduardo Najera logged 19 second-half minutes at the expense of Jamison. The fifth in the mix Wednesday, and only newcomer, was Antoine Walker, who added 20 points and 14 rebounds. Nelson continues to praise the former Celtic for his basketball smarts and adaptability.

Though the Mavs have only played two games, one trend has quickly come to the surface. When more than one newcomer is on the court, the simpler the offensive packages have to become. It also leads to more defenders out of position.

"You can kinda move one guy around by talking to him during the course of the game or have his teammates turn him around," Nelson said. "But when there's a second guy, you don't have time to talk to the second one when he's in the wrong spot. And the third is the wrong spot ... then you have no offense. That was kind of the frustrating part."

Going with the "34"

In assessing the value of the Mavs' frontcourt, it's obvious how the talent stacks. With that in mind, Don Nelson is set on grouping his best players together and forgoing the use of a traditional center. He's calling the lineup the "34," three power forwards (fours) playing together.

Dirk Nowitzki, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison and Eduardo Najera are the four power forwards for the rotation. Nelson said that lineup will create matchup problems for opposing centers who have to cover a smaller, but quicker player.

But at the other end, one of the Mavs' power forwards will have to guard the center. That led to obvious problems Tuesday against Shaquille O'Neal and Golden State center Erick Dampier (14 points and 17 rebounds) also had a solid game against the Mavs.

kingrex · 10-31-2003, 11:30 AM

So Nellie has name for his new offense. The "34". I kinda like it. I like it even more if starts working.

This Saturday will be a great game to see that. The only center we really have to worry about in Utah is Collins or Ostertag. No problem.

I can't wait for this Saturday!

sike · 10-31-2003, 11:34 AM

i'm watching...let see if it will work....if it does...good, if not, scrap it.

kingrex · 10-31-2003, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: sike
i'm watching...let see if it will work....if it does...good, if not, scrap it.

Now who's knee jerking? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

u2sarajevo · 10-31-2003, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: kingrex
So Nellie has name for his new offense. The "34". I kinda like it. I like it even more if starts working. This Saturday will be a great game to see that. The only center we really have to worry about in Utah is Collins or Ostertag. No problem. I can't wait for this Saturday!

It already has started working.... against GS. In the second half.

...and as for Utah Centers, didn't you mean to say the only Center we have to worry about is Utah's Center for High Performance Computing. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]