GDT: Lakers @ Mavs, 2/24/2013, 12:00 PM CST

[dude1394]

It is frustrating to think that we diminished our chance at getting the win tonight because rick wouldn't sit oj because of his feelings. I was surprised that james was out there but Nash was having his way with daren, we've seen that before. But not putting your best defender on Kobe looked like a big mistake.

[markus1234]

You play Marion-Carter-Dirk-Brand together as many minutes as possible. It's that simple. Other guys aren't ready for the big stage and will probably never be.

I do not get it how a coach can roll with Crowder and Mike James in crunch time...against two HOF players. It's like putting Matt Bonner or Brandon Bass on Dirk.

[spreedom]

Originally Posted by dude1394

It is frustrating to think that we diminished our chance at getting the win tonight because rick wouldn't sit oj because of his feelings. I was surprised that james was out there but Nash was having his way with daren, we've seen that before. But not putting your best defender on Kobe looked like a big mistake.

Yeah, unless Marion really was severely hampered by his illness, there's no excuse to show so little respect and awareness of Kobe's scoring ability. He had it going. OJ was just completely outmatched and intimidated by Kobe.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Agree that Marion's a high IQ player. As are Dirk and (it goes without saying) Kidd. I think the same can be said of JET and Vince. Just as germane to the discussion about Rick's coaching ability, though, is the fact that the Mavs' current starting backcourt features two guys whose bball IQs are at best works in progress. I don't think Rick deserves blame for that anymore than he deserves credit for Kidd being a savant.

I will conjecture, however, that he might deserve some credit for both Darren and OJ having arguably the best seasons of their careers.

This isnt the best season of either of their careers. This is exactly average for Darren and I'd take ojs first two years over this one.

While that's not his fault, the fact that mike James is playing is damn sure his fault

[Five-ofan]

Btw since I mentioned Marion I'll point out something else. I think he's one of the more underrated players ever. He should be a no doubt hofer but I'm not sure hes viewed that way. He's honestly probably one of the 100 best players I'm MBA history and you could make an argument that he's closer to 60 or so.

[Murphy3]

I wouldn't call JET a high IQ player. I'd call him a really good shooter that was great to have on the team late in games. But not sure about the high IQ thing.. Too many mental lapses in huge situations for me to call him a high IQ player. Yes, I know he had some huge moments.. I'm not trying to take away from that..but those huge moments had alot more to do with him being just a great shooter with little fear of the big moment. To me, there's a big difference between that and a guy that has a high basketball IQ.

[Rick Carlisle]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Btw since I mentioned Marion I'll point out something else. I think he's one of the more underrated players ever. He should be a no doubt hofer but I'm not sure hes viewed that way. He's honestly probably one of the 100 best players I'm MBA history and you could make an argument that he's closer to 60 or so.

Agreed and glad you brought up the MBA thing. People tend to forget what a genius this guy is in addition to being a great player.

[SMC0007]

I think Kobe misses some of those shots if he back off him a little....

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

This isnt the best season of either of their careers. This is exactly average for Darren and I'd take ojs first two years over this one.

While that's not his fault, the fact that mike James is playing is damn sure his fault

Darren's on par with his best statistically, and has been generally improving as the season has gone on; hence, arguably his best. How you can say possibly claim that this isn't Mayo's best season is beyond me.

As disappointed as I am that Roddy's not in the rotation, my evaluation of Rick as a coach isn't going to be determined by which way the Beaubois/Mike James pendulum has swung. Besides, I think Mike's been looking better lately.

[dude1394]

So someone told me that we will not be able to get anything for the improvement that rc has brought to mayo/collison unless we keep them. What a waste.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Too bad Darren and Mayo's progression hasn't translated into wins. I think Carlisle has done the best he could, but let's face it...they just aren't that good. Carlisle can only milk so much from a player. I actually get the Mike James thing. Don't play well and put in Mike James to send a message. These guys just can't take a game off against the Lakers....the team that is also fighting for that last playoff spot. Seriously...did I just see Mike James play almost as good as Collison? James plays because he looks like he cares more about winning the game. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I'm starting to at least get it.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Darren's on par with his best statistically, and has been generally improving as the season has gone on; hence, arguably his best. How you can say possibly claim that this isn't Mayo's best season is beyond me.

As disappointed as I am that Roddy's not in the rotation, my evaluation of Rick as a coach isn't going to be determined by which way the Beaubois/Mike James pendulum has swung. Besides, I think Mike's been looking better lately.

Ojs second season 17.5 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.0 apg 2.1 topg
This season 17.5 ppg, 3.7 rpg 4.4 apg 2.8 topg. The only reason this season looked better is because of the unnaturally good 3pt start he had.

Is this ojs best season? Maybe but it's not like it's some runaway inconceivable thing to say that he's been this good before and when you weigh all the negative things that Carlisle has done this year, that's certainly not enough to counter balance it. Carlisle has been a bad coach this season. It's entirely possible he's just having a bad season. It happens to players and it's possible he's having trouble adjusting to a radically different roster but there is no way in hell anyone can say Carlisle has done a good job this year

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Ojs second season 17.5 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 3.0 apg 2.1 topg
This season 17.5 ppg, 3.7 rpg 4.4 apg 2.8 topg. The only reason this season looked better is because of the unnaturally good 3pt start he had.

Career best PER, career best ts%, career-best assist%, career-best a/to ratio. There's still time for his average level of performance to decline to a point where the claim would ring hollow, but as of right now this has clearly been his best year.

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Career best PER, career best ts%, career-best assist%, career-best a/to ratio. There's still time for his average level of performance to decline to a point where the claim would ring hollow, but as of right now this has clearly been his best year.

you are by far one of my favorite posters, you make the same points that I would make, yet you actually put in the effort to look up the statistics to back up your claims (something I'm far too lazy to do, unfortunately). Well said, good sir. Well said.

[sike]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Absolutely. Great defender. Best cutter iv ever seen. Understands spacing incredibly well. You don't have to have a jumper to have a high bball iq

All the attributes you just mentioned about Marion I would agree with, and praise him for, but wouldn't necessarily attribute them to High BBall IQ. I see Marion is a freak athlete and a profoundly instinctual player. I don't watch him and think, "This guy really thinks the game."

As a matter of fact, I tend to think of Marion as a non cerebral player. Contrasted with guys like Kidd, CP3,Kobe, or Nash who clearly "think the game" on a different level.

1 quick example on Marion jumps to mind: I see him make FAR too many boneheaded/thoughtless passes for me to consider him as a guy who is playing with a great mind for the game.

And it is certainly feels like hyperbole to call him at a top 5-10 IQ guy.

To each his own though. BBIQ is certainly a subjectively ranked category.

Having said all that, I do agree that Marion is a vastly underrated player over his career.

[oilfieldtrash]

Making good cuts takes the same high bball IQ as making good passes. It's virtually the same thing.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Career best PER, career best ts%, career-best assist%, career-best a/to ratio. There's still time for his average level of performance to decline to a point where the claim would ring hollow, but as of right now this has clearly been his best year.

I would argue this has also been his worst season as a defender(though I only saw him about 20 times a year during his first two seasons and he's had quite a few bright moments this year so it's possible I just happened to catch an unusually high percentage of his good nights in those seasons. The career high in turnovers makes the a/t ratio basically double counting assist ratio IMO. The ts is largely a product of his 3pt shooting which I think is more luck than anything. I don't think he's become a better shooter and I don't think he takes better shots. If it returns to his normal level his ts% is basically the same as his second year.

As for the assists, I think that largely a product of him playing a good bit of pg which I don't think he's done particularly well. If you look at it every single one of those stats is a product of him passing more which while I think he certainly has the skills to be a 5apg type 2, I think is more a product of role than playing better.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by oilfieldtrash

Making good cuts takes the same high bball IQ as making good passes. It's virtually the same thing.

Yep, that's one reason I thought he was much more important to the Phoenix offense than people thought. This is a 6'7 guy with virtually no handles and a questionable jumper that's turned himself into a first ballot hofer. Yes he's a hell of an athlete(or was) but so were a ton of other people who never did anything near what he did.

[grndmstr_c]

Not intending to diminish off-the-ball movement, but to my mind it should be clear that passing adds another layer of complication to the mental calculus, for the simple reason that the passer is responsible for deciding whether the cut merits a pass, whether it was wholely ineffective, or whether the cut has forced a defensive adjustment that can be exploited elsewhere on the floor. That kind of awareness is what sets guys like Kidd apart from other "smart" players, and makes the top 5-10 argument for Shawn ring a bit hollow to me.

Of course, in addition to being a good cutter, Marion's also effective in the passing game, and good at reading opposing offenses as well. Those aspects of his game are at least as important as his cutting in an evaluation of his bball IQ, IMO.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Not intending to diminish off-the-ball movement, but to my mind it should be clear that passing adds another layer of complication to the mental calculus, for the simple reason that the passer is responsible for deciding whether the cut merits a pass, whether it was wholely ineffective, or whether the cut has forced a defensive adjustment that can be exploited elsewhere on the floor. That kind of awareness is what sets guys like Kidd apart from other "smart" players, and makes the top 5-10 argument for Shawn ring a bit hollow to me.

Of course, in addition to being a good cutter, Marion's also effective in the passing game, and good at reading opposing offenses as well. Those aspects of his game are at least as important as his cutting in an evaluation of his bball IQ, IMO.

It's not just the cutting that makes me believe his bball iq is high. Josh Howard was a good cutter and he had a terrible bball iq. It's everything together

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by sike

All the attributes you just mentioned about Marion I would agree with, and praise him for, but wouldn't necessarily attribute them to High BBall IQ. I see Marion is a freak athlete and a profoundly instinctual player. I don't watch him and think, "This guy really thinks the game."

As a matter of fact, I tend to think of Marion as a non cerebral player. Contrasted with guys like Kidd, CP3,Kobe, or Nash who clearly "think the game" on a different level.

1 quick example on Marion jumps to mind: I see him make FAR too many boneheaded/thoughtless passes for me to consider him as a guy who is playing with a great mind for the game.

And it is certainly feels like hyperbole to call him at a top 5-10 IQ guy.

To each his own though. BBIQ is certainly a subjectively ranked category.

Having said all that, I do agree that Marion is a vastly underrated player over his career.

I don't think you are giving nearly enough credit to spacing, knowing the other players tendencies and funneling him to the right spot. I think Shawn is limited offensively mainly because of hands and handles, but defensively I think he is very cerebral.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

I wouldn't call JET a high IQ player. I'd call him a really good shooter that was great to have on the team late in games. But not sure about the high IQ thing.. Too many mental lapses in huge situations for me to call him a high IQ player. Yes, I know he had some huge moments.. I'm not trying to take away from that..but those huge moments had alot more to do with him being just a great shooter with little fear of the big moment. To me, there's a big difference between that and a guy that has a high basketball IQ.

I don't think he was especially "high IQ" myself. Too many goofy mistakes. But he was certainly higher IQ than Mayo is right now. Sheesh. Don't even know what to make of that guy.

[sike]

Originally Posted by dude1394

I don't think you are giving nearly enough credit to spacing, knowing the other players tendencies and funneling him to the right spot.

Don't assume that bc I don't think of Marion as a top 10 BBall IQ guy that I don't respect him as a good defender now and a phenomenal defender in his prime. I think he almost always gives maximum effort (hugely significant) and that for most of his career he has almost certainly been the better athlete than his opponent on a night in and night out basis.

If you want to say understanding defensive "spacing" is about intelligence, I'm ok with that. But we cannot separate Marion's career defensive success from his outstanding physical attributes. Personally I see his overall success as a defender more to do with his physical ability and personal drive (a career of playing w a chip on his shoulder) than his mental mastery of defensive theory.

And don't misunderstand me, I'm mostly reacting to the claim that Marion could be a top 10 BBall IQ guy...which just struck me as incredible seeing all the other players we could list.

[Five-ofan]

The funny thing is, I actually feel similarly about passing as what you just said about Marion's defense. Passing is a skill, and some guys have it and some guys don't. I actually thing pgs bball iqs tend to be overrated (kidds and Nash's are both incredibly high though)

And to the person who mentioned Kobe earlier... Just no. Kobe has a high bball iq but his arrogance makes him make a bunch of dumb plays(it's also what makes him, him so you take the good with the bad)

To me the top bball iq guys are (no order) kidd, Nash, Garnett, Duncan dirk, Chris Paul, and lebron. Outside of that group I don't think Marion takes a back seat to anyone

[Five-ofan]

I'd also add that Tyson chandler was an incredibly high bball iq guy on that team

[markus1234]

Sometimes Marion's body seems too fast for his high BBIQ. "Out of body experience" or something like that ...esp. when he tries to play point forward.