Do you really have hope? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

tcat075 · 03-09-2009, 09:41 PM

By now, just about everybody has given up on this year. We're a filler team in the playoffs, taking a spot somebody has to. Our job is to let a #1 or #2 seed advance. Maybe we put up a fight, maybe we get swept. It doesn't matter.

But we're told to have hope. The front office tells us to wait for 2010, "because we're Dallas". The bloggers tell us to look for salary cap steals, and point to Damp's and Stack's expiring contracts. Hope in the form of a draft pick, hope in the form of young players, hope in general.

But do you really have hope? We're an old team, and Gerald Green could count the number of years our star players have on one hand -- the hand with 4 fingers, that is. We've got a single 1st rounder, in a draft that is supposedly "weak". Its not like our previous draft picks are lighting it up in Europe or anything either. At least Foster isn't, last I checked. Maybe things change, but it doesn't look like we have relief coming from our previous draft picks.

Even if we're able to make a trade, even if we're able to steal a good center, or a starting caliber shooting guard, what then? Maybe we're able to resign Kidd, and trade Josh and Damp and Stack for a decent center who can score and a SG during the summer of 09 (even though the summer of 2010 seems much more likely).

Kidd/New SG/Antoine Wright?/Dirk/New C. Jet off the bench. Its not an awful lineup. But how big of a window do we have? One year? Two years? Our PG position has no future in sight (I shudder at the thought of JJ as the starter). Kidd has already declined significantly...imagine him two years from now. He's got no room but to decline. Dirk is older. Most of the centers we would want to trade for are older. Those that are young are injury prone. Jet's lost a step or so.

So we're looking at a very, very short window. If...if this lineup allows us to be real contenders, we've got 2009 and maybe 2010. In 2011, Dirk's 33 and Kidd's 38 (and likely retired). Terry is 34. Whoever we got as a SG and C are likely around 30. Window: closed.

So we're what...looking at merely two years to win the whole thing? Maybe only a single year, if we're not able to make the trades we want in 09, but have to want until 2010.

And this is only if we're hoping for the best. Kidd will likely resign, I feel sure. However, expecting to get both a starting caliber SG and a scoring C with only Josh, Damp and Stack is not a given. We're relying on other teams giving away talent an attempt to lessen their costs. There other teams that would love to have that talent. Maybe not many, but the NBA Front offices are not stupid. If they have an owner able to take on money, they are looking like hell for a killer trade. For a Pau Gasol deal. Pau Gasol deals are always talked about, but how many can you name that aren't Pau Gasol? Thus its name...there's no other trade to name it after...

So let's face it. We're looking at an aging team, without many draft picks to infuse youth. This is a team that is hoping to get lucky and acquire talent for nothing. We can't give away talent for talent, otherwise we'll still suck. We're in the "good team tier", but we're scraping bottom. We've got no shot against the truly elite teams in a 7 game playoff series. If we've able to make some beneficial trades, it gives us a season or two to be contenders, and then we're worse off than we are right now.

Do you honestly have hope Cuban and Carlisle and Donnie can all turn this around? Do you believe we have a legit...scratch that...do you believe we have any shot at a championship without completely starting over?

Thespiralgoeson · 03-09-2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tcat075

do you believe we have any shot at a championship without completely starting over?

That's what it boils down to. And my answer is no. I say get the best deal you can for Dirk and start completely over. With any luck we can land another star player within the next two decades.

craggmac · 03-09-2009, 09:51 PM

Man, this has been coming for years. You seem surprised.

Dude, as long as Eric Dampier is still our starting center, we're doomed.

Flacolaco · 03-09-2009, 09:57 PM

Do you people live in the same city that I do?

If they make the playoffs we should throw them a freaking party.

They're gonna play 4 playoff games more than any of the other franchises here this year.

The bar has been lowered. If you didn't lower your own personal bar yet, you might want to get on that.

BGMaverick9 · 03-09-2009, 10:06 PM

Ok, Ok, Ok...you kinda had to know that was coming!

Do I have hope...sure I do, why the hell would I still be here if I didn't have hope? Just to needle people and cause a fight for the sheer hell of it?

I haven't given up on this year by any means, I just am keeping a stronger sense of realism. Could this team make it to the Finals? It's sure going to need a lot of luck and momentum to roll in their favor to make it happen, but I've always said...if Dirk is on our team, I'm never counting them out of ANYTHING.

I don't have much stock in the draft pick bucket unless we did something with Washington where it got us a top flight pick. It could turn out to be a very talented player, but it's just a toss up at that stage of the process.

Teams would want the the contracts this coming summer because they roll off in the summer of 10. I really don't see us being a major player in that market during that summer so this coming summer is the one where teams can make deals. There will be teams with money but other than Detroit or maybe one other team...they're lower end/non-playoff like teams. They're not going to want to make a big splash in the trade market, they'll do it via Free Agency. Some of those teams won't even want to make deals because they could be a small market team and the economy is crippling them.

It's a matter of believing Cuban or not, but if he has his funds in order and is protected, he'll have money to spend and can be a major player this summer. He's not afraid of taking chances and eating money to try to bring in talent, some of it has work and some of it hasn't. Teams will be desperate to unload large contracts and want to avoid the Luxury Tax to salvage any money they can, Cuban might be one of the few people who step up to the plate on that chance. Teams just have to decide, will they deal with Cuban (potentially in-conference) or do they wanna hold out hope for finding another taker and run the risk of holding on to that hampering contract for longer.

I'm not expecting to get a SG AND a high-caliber C in the summer if we go that route, it'd be one or the other. If they're a talented player and they fit the key pieces of the roster (Dirk, Kidd, Jet) then I think it will be a major difference to the team. This team needs a major complimentary part to go with Dirk, plain and simple. Shaq needed it, Kobe needed it, Lebron needs it, Wade needed it, Duncan needed it...all the stars need that extra player to take the pressure off. Kidd is a great piece but he's like the icing to the cake for that player we're still waiting for.

The rest would be rambling...if not more than what it was now, haha.
Do I really have hope? Again, why the heck would I still be here if I didn't have any hope?

241mavsrule · 03-09-2009, 10:29 PM

I still have hope until after this coming season. If we don't make a big deal by then we should just start rebuilding try and get as much value for our valuable players and start over

fluid.forty.one · 03-09-2009, 10:59 PM

I'll have hope as long as Dirk is wearing our shade of blue.

tsar · 03-09-2009, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I'll have hope as long as Dirk is wearing our shade of blue.

This.

Seriously, I'm not expecting for us to get to the finals this year, but I believe we'll be a lot more competitive in the playoffs than the last 2 years. Hopefully we can shift some things around this summer and have a small chance at it again while a lot of teams will be re-tooling or rebuilding their rosters. I still have hope, maybe I'm a bit naive but hey... it's a lot better than constantly loathing.
Go Mavs, Go Dirk!

AxdemxO · 03-10-2009, 12:14 AM

I believe we can go all the way with some luck. If not we can def. make a deep run with this team.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-10-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I believe we can go all the way with some luck. If not we can def. make a deep run with this team.

Good god... At first I thought this was a common mindset around here, but honestly I think you're the only one left.

Dirkadirkastan · 03-10-2009, 01:00 AM

If we sweep or go 3-1 on this road trip, then I'll maintain hope we'll keep that 50-win streak going. Otherwise, I'll just maintain hope we won't lose all four games to the Lakers by double digits.

AxdemxO · 03-10-2009, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Good god... At first I thought this was a common mindset around here, but honestly I think you're the only one left.

Ohh dont get me wrong this team can be a lot better. And I also think its very possible for us to go out in the first round. This team has 20 games left to get it going and get on a roll going into the playoffs, I am not one of those people thats always positive. I think the team has played bad for a big part of the year. But I believe playoffs are different and I stand by that statement that we can beat anyone with a little luck.

TheMaverick · 03-10-2009, 01:09 AM

Boston went from worst to first in a week's span over an off-season. Anything can happen. You guys need to lighten up.

ghazi · 03-10-2009, 01:17 AM

I'm just hoping for a miracle at this point.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-10-2009, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaverick

Boston went from worst to first in a week's span over an off-season. Anything can happen. You guys need to lighten up.

Getting two perennial all-stars (one of them a former MVP and future hall of famer) will do that for you.

Don't bet on the Mavericks having any such luck.

me770706 · 03-10-2009, 01:38 AM

not really

ghazi · 03-10-2009, 01:58 AM

As for this year, I don't have much hope for the beloved Mavs.

The best predictor of the future is the past, which for the beloved Mavs is THIS year.

What have we seen... a 30% win rate against the good teams, needing some 4th Q heroics against the bad/average teams, a meager +1.5 margin of victory, and some really terrible losses to the Grizzlies, Kings, Thunder, Clippers... also nights where this team gets blown out.

There really hasn't been a single point this season where the Mavs have shown a level of basketball comparable to that of the elite teams in the league. We've had some nice wins and good stretches, but never shown a "different gear". A gear I felt we even showed at times last year, after the Kidd trade.

And yes, we do have beloved Dirk. But all of the top teams in the West have a superstar.

And I've seen so many times this year Dirk's brilliance get wasted. Where he's having a great game but you don't notice because it's just exchanging baskets due to the matador defense. Or he has a great game and the help is awful like v Denver and Boston.

He has also had some bad games this year though, this really isn't Dirk's finest season although his point production is high.

We'll see what happens, I'm just gonna enjoy the games, win or loss. I shall follow the Mavs to the gates of hell, ends of earth, till time halts, etc.

As for next year...

We'll see, I'm just hoping something is made of those appealing contracts of Stack, J-Ho, and Dampier along with fillers like Williams or Carroll perhaps, and maybe packed with a #14 pick.

You need to bring a difference maker in here though. Not just a good player, a difference maker. Those are hard to find.

Dtownsfinest · 03-10-2009, 02:40 AM

Ever since the offseason i've had a hard time getting UP for Mavs basketball. You want to stay confident in the team you've been cheering for years for but after losing to the Heat 3 years ago and losing in the 1st round two years straight reality has finally set in that this team is not very good. And to see this team release Avery and basically say he was the reason why we've underachieved was pure BS. Then to see the trade deadline come and go.....its just pitiful. How exactly did this team get to the Finals then? I think it was a combination of things from Harris and Diop playing out of their minds and players still having faith in Avery since he was the only one in the locker room who actually had a ring. But they no longer have Avery's voice. They have Carlisle who's underachieved his career just like the Mavs have.

I just don't have an answer for what this team should or shouldn't do. If you're going to rebuild than that means trading Dirk. And if you're trading Dirk you better be getting a young 20 year old all star in return like the T-Wolves did with Garnett. If not, what's the point? I thiink this franchise as well as the fans have overvalued this teams value personnel wise. I don't think we have any trade bait aside from Dirk, maybe JET and Stack's contract. I think teams want Josh but will want to give up trash in return since their's a high risk involved they're receiving an idiot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaverick

Boston went from worst to first in a week's span over an off-season. Anything can happen. You guys need to lighten up.

Boston went from worst to 1st due to them rebuilding or attempting to anyway. At the end of the day T-Wolves got a all star in Jefferson in return for Garnett and the Sonics or Thunder got Jeff Green in return for Ray Allen. What the Celtics did was trade youth in order for a run at a title for 3 or 4 years.

Dtownsfinest · 03-10-2009, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ghazi

As for this year, I don't have much hope for the beloved Mavs.

The best predictor of the future is the past, which for the beloved Mavs is THIS year.

What have we seen... a 30% win rate against the good teams, needing some 4th Q heroics against the bad/average teams, a meager +1.5 margin of victory, and some really terrible losses to the Grizzlies, Kings, Thunder, Clippers... also nights where this team gets blown out.

There really hasn't been a single point this season where the Mavs have shown a level of basketball comparable to that of the elite teams in the league. We've had some nice wins and good stretches, but never shown a "different gear". A gear I felt we even showed at times last year, after the Kidd trade.

And yes, we do have beloved Dirk. But all of the top teams in the West have a superstar.

And I've seen so many times this year Dirk's brilliance get wasted. Where he's having a great game but you don't notice because it's just exchanging baskets due to the matador defense. Or he has a great game and the help is awful like v Denver and Boston.

He has also had some bad games this year though, this really isn't Dirk's finest season although his point production is high.

We'll see what happens, I'm just gonna enjoy the games, win or loss. I shall follow the Mavs to the gates of hell, ends of earth, till time halts, etc.

As for next year...

We'll see, I'm just hoping something is made of those appealing contracts of Stack, J-Ho, and Dampier along with fillers like Williams or Carroll perhaps, and maybe packed with a #14 pick.

You need to bring a difference maker in here though. Not just a good player, a difference maker. Those are hard to find.

The Mavs aren't allowed to trade their draft pick at all right?

ghazi · 03-10-2009, 02:59 AM

they can on draft night... I think?

Not sure now that you brought it up

Dtownsfinest · 03-10-2009, 03:03 AM

Yea I know you can't trade picks in back to back years but I wonder is there a way around that? Such as drafting a guy and trading his rights to another team on draft night?

Triple T's · 03-10-2009, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That's what it boils down to. And my answer is no. I say get the best deal you can for Dirk and start completely over. With any luck we can land another star player within the next two decades.

dumb.

Smaller markets trade their upper echelon players for talent so that they can rebuild in the offseason. YOU DONT TRADE A PLAYER OF DIRKS CALIBER because you will never get a solid return on it. You cant automatically assume every fan is of equal intelligence and is as knowledgeable of the teams day to day operations as you or anyone here might be. That being said, you trade away any sort of revenue Dirk would bring you just by being here and helping you win games. It is what it is. So, the team isnt what we expected, big deal! You want mark to make a bad trade to bring in pieces that wont fit just to satisfy anyone thirst for change? The common misconception here is that WE know better than the people running the organization, when its clear that we as FANS aren't privy to certain pieces of information. This isn't a team of ill fitting parts. We may not have as much talent, but chemistry has never really been an issue on this team nor in prior years. Financially, the team would bomb. And you say that assuming we can rebuild in a decade or two? See Phx ... and the trades they've made. Its proof that you can deal and still lose. Or you can stand pat and win. Observe how that team did a 360 from the beginning of last season. lol So what did anyone learn from all of that? That's why that statement is retarded.

Mark will never win out with you guys because, its a lose lose situation.

sphincs · 03-10-2009, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMaverick

Boston went from worst to first in a week's span over an off-season. Anything can happen. You guys need to lighten up.

I agree! we mustn't see Mavericks' age situation so bad. of course ours key players are not young but i think that Dirk could play very well for long years yet. He doesn't require to an optimal physical condition because he is a technical player that works far from the baket..he has never been so physically dominant and so he can give a lot still.
Then all of us know that we have to change somethings to became a contender.
I think that in 09 summer Cuban will make several trade with teams that want to reduce the cap and we have 2 good expiring contracts and a very good player to trade.
So, according to me, we could assemble a competitive team yet

tcat075 · 03-10-2009, 06:56 AM

I still have a little hope. Nobody knows what's going to happen. We don't know what trades are coming. We don't know which players have interest in signing like us.

I mentioned a lot of things in my original post, but I never mentioned the possibility of signing a free agent who helps us immensely. A cheap one who turns out to be underpriced, such as Roger Mason Jr. in SAS. Mason is one of the reasons SAS is so good this year...without him, they'd be down in the middle of the pack.

If we get lucky and make a Roger Mason Jr. like signing, we've still got some hope.

Underdog · 03-10-2009, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Do I really have hope? Again, why the heck would I still be here if I didn't have any hope?

This sums it up perfectly for me...

Watching sports is a complete waste of time/energy if it doesn't bring you any pleasure - the only way to enjoy losing is to have a little hope...

For me, pro sports is more about the journey than the destination - if winning was the only aspect I cared about then I would have been a Celtics fan last season, a Lakers fan this season and a Cavs fan next season (but then I wouldn't be much of a "fan" would I?)

TheMaverick · 03-10-2009, 08:10 AM

Why the hell would you trade Dirk?

Is having an Al Jefferson caliber player while winning 25-30 games a year that much better than we have now?
I don't understand how people can justify the KG trade for Minnesota.

I do not want to be the Minnesota Timberwolves for the next 5 years.

jthig32 · 03-10-2009, 08:14 AM

I have a good amount of hope that we make a few dynamic moves over the next calendar year. I absolutely believe that trying to take advantage of your trade chips and willingness to spend in the current environment is the way to go right now.

As far as this season...I have hope for a competitive first round series, maybe an upset to move on to the second round. Beyond that....not really.

But as Flaco said, the Mavs simply playing in a somewhat competitive playoff series will end up being the Dallas/Ft. Worth professional sports event of the year.

dalmations202 · 03-10-2009, 08:56 AM

Hope for winning it all this year ......... nope

Hope for winning it all .. sure - I am just not sure when it will happen or if it will happen.

Deals don't get done without relationships in the NBA, and certain relationships guarantee certain results. The best "teams" don't always win.

Dallas2009CHAMPS · 03-10-2009, 09:07 AM

< name

TripleDipping · 03-10-2009, 09:41 AM

Making the playoffs would be good enough news to me.

Advancing to second round would be a freakin' miracle.

Winning a championship? The Mavs are never in that race to begin with.

SMC0007 · 03-10-2009, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple T's

dumb.

Smaller markets trade their upper echelon players for talent so that they can rebuild in the offseason. YOU DONT TRADE A PLAYER OF DIRKS CALIBER because you will never get a solid return on it. You cant automatically assume every fan is of equal intelligence and is as knowledgeable of the teams day to day operations as you or anyone here might be. That being said, you trade away any sort of revenue Dirk would bring you just by being here and helping you win games. It is what it is. So, the team isnt what we expected, big deal! You want mark to make a bad trade to bring in pieces that wont fit just to satisfy anyone thirst for change? The common misconception here is that WE know better than the people running the organization, when its clear that we as FANS aren't privy to certain pieces of information. This isn't a team of ill fitting parts. We may not have as much talent, but chemistry has never really been an issue on this team nor in prior years. Financially, the team would bomb. And you say that assuming we can rebuild in a decade or two? See Phx ... and the trades they've made. Its proof that you can deal and still lose. Or you can stand pat and win. Observe how that team did a 360 from the beginning of last season. lol So what did anyone learn from all of that? That's why that statement is retarded.

Mark will never win out with you guys because, its a lose lose situation.

Ohh contraire! I agree with a lot of what you said but one of this teams major problems is some of the parts are nice, but together they don't work exceptionally well.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-10-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple T's

YOU DONT TRADE A PLAYER OF DIRKS CALIBER because you will never get a solid return on it.

No, you won't get equal return on it. But, if you believe that there is virtually no chance of building a championship roster around him within the next 2 season or so and that it's time to start over, then yes, trade him. And frankly I can see Dirk opting out. I'd rather get something for him while we still can.

Quote:

So, the team isnt what we expected, big deal!

Uh, you mean that the team isn't winning? Yeah, that is kind of a big deal.

Quote:

The common misconception here is that WE know better than the people running the organization, when its clear that we as FANS aren't privy to certain pieces of information

Well they did do that idiotic trade last year, so..... YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! That was stupid. I knew it was stupid. Anyone who would actually go through with that trade is incompetent to manage a major sports franchise.

Quote:

This isn't a team of ill fitting parts.

Yes it is.

Quote:

We may not have as much talent, but chemistry has never really been an issue on this team nor in prior years. Financially, the team would bomb. And you say that assuming we can rebuild in a decade or two? See Phx ... and the trades they've made. Its proof that you can deal and still lose. Or you can stand pat and win. Observe how that team did a 360 from the beginning of last season. lol So what did anyone learn from all of that? That's why that statement is retarded.

Stand pat and win.... what? What are we going to win?

Quote:

Mark will never win out with you guys because, its a lose lose situation.

Are you speaking to me specifically, or the whole board? Because if you're putting me in the same category as everyone else, I resent that.

I was maybe Cuban's biggest supporter until the Kidd trade. I don't know what you're referring to now, but THAT was definitely not a "lose lose situation." It was a win lose situation; New Jersey won, we lost.

Edit: In fact, I'd be singing an ENTIRELY different tune if not for that stupid trade. If that hadn't happened, I'd say we could still have a shot at a title. We might only be one or two small pieces away. Now? Forget it.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-10-2009, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

And to see this team release Avery and basically say he was the reason why we've underachieved was pure BS. Then to see the trade deadline come and go.....its just pitiful. How exactly did this team get to the Finals then?

Avery may not have been the only reason, but he was definitely the single biggest reason IMO.

Quote:

I think it was a combination of things from Harris and Diop playing out of their minds and players still having faith in Avery since he was the only one in the locker room who actually had a ring. But they no longer have Avery's voice. They have Carlisle who's underachieved his career just like the Mavs have.

I've always liked and respected you, but you are straight up stupid if you believe that last part. In no way shape or form has Carlisle "underachieved" in his young career.

HexNBA · 03-10-2009, 10:45 AM

Obviously this is not our year, but I totally didnt see the championship run coming in 2006 either. So they might randomly hit the right chemistry mix next year. In general though, I'm preparing for some tough years.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-10-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HexNBA

Obviously this is not our year, but I totally didnt see the championship run coming in 2006 either. So they might randomly hit the right chemistry mix next year.

Speak for yourself. I predicted 62 wins and a championship at the beginning of that season. I'm not trying to boast, or pretend that I know more than anyone else. My point is that I don't think that title run was "random" at all. That team was poised to win. This one isn't.

Edit: This may be off subject, but that team was completely overlooked and underrated from the very beginning, even by a lot of its own fans. I really didn't understand why everyone was so surprised that the Mavs did so well. I mean, sure, I expect that from the media, but not from Mavs fans.

erdubya · 03-10-2009, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

If we sweep or go 3-1 on this road trip, then I'll maintain hope we'll keep that 50-win streak going. Otherwise, I'll just maintain hope we won't lose all four games to the Lakers by double digits.

Actually, as it stands today, we're right on pace for those 50 wins. Not that it means anything though.

MavsX · 03-10-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

That's what it boils down to. And my answer is no. I say get the best deal you can for Dirk and start completely over. With any luck we can land another star player within the next two decades.

two decades?

holy neck dude.

i might die before then.

Thespiralgoeson · 03-10-2009, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsX

two decades?

holy neck dude.

i might die before then.

It's a bitch. Unfortunately there are just no guarantees when it comes to building a team.

SMC0007 · 03-10-2009, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

It's a bitch. Unfortunately there are just no guarantees when it comes to building a team.

With any luck and as long as we have an Owner that desperately wants to win, we will have several superstars in the next two decades. A good question is, will it be the right mix to win it all. Will they surround the next superstar(s) with the key role players.

MavsX · 03-10-2009, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

It's a bitch. Unfortunately there are just no guarantees when it comes to building a team.

at least, when we do finally win..it will be that much sweeter