Kobe Has Yet To Play In Preseason

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: sike
Dear Doc, I listen to what you say....but man, you are just wrong!...
THere is no other player in the league with less than a minute in the game greater than Kobe....and that could be said for the previous 47 minutes as well.....now I hate him, don't get me wrong...but he is greatness

I know what you are thinking, but I respectfully disagree with ya on this one...

I think you are wrong. It's no problem to disagree though. I understand your point, I just don't think showbe plays well and will be a huge distraction.

[grbh]

Doc I don't disagree that he is a huge problem, but he is still a bigger asset than distraction. This team wins more game with him at SG than without. IMO

[Drbio]

Originally posted by: grbh
Doc I don't disagree that he is a huge problem, but he is still a bigger asset than distraction. This team wins more game with him at SG than without. IMO

I have no problem with that opinion. I still think the flakers will be better off in the long run if kobe is nowhere near the team until he gets the legal crap behind him.

[grbh]

Isn't that legal crap still there even if Kobe disappears. Granted itr is less but isn't every question:What do you think about Kobe's situation: Do you fell like Kobe left this team, ec.

[EricaLubarsky]

No he is probably not. I never knew that unhappy people are detrimental to their team though

Danny Fortson, Anthony Mason. Do you want more names?

Not exlusively, but I am sure it is a priority.

Priority #1- Dont go to jail for life Priority #2- keep the marriage together for the kid and for priority #1

Definately the first time he will ever be following him closley, and boo him

Huh? I dont know if this will be as big of a deal, but the crowds will always be less favorable. The bigger point is media scrutiny

he hasnt been playing ball

When you are an NBA player, and you miss months of regular practice, you are really rusty

Looks like it

the bigger deal is that he hasnt been conditioning.

Partilarly true, however he hasn't missed the entire camo.

He has yet to play a single game in the preseason. Thats pretty scary when 40% of your starting lineup has changed and the rest of the team is practically all new.

[Epitome22]

You also never asnwered anything. Show-be is a cancer on the team,

any particular objective reason you are referring to kobe Bryant by a derisive nickname?

and thats the end of it. Until you can say, "Kobe put up good numbers and brought his team together" then I think your idea is the "Dumbest Sport Point I have ever heard"

If for some reason the burdern of proof of whether or not Kobe is a "cancer" to the Lakers rests on if and only if he puts up good numbers and brings the team together to charge for a championship, then I think in equal respect any assessment that he is a "cancer" to the team becomes valid when and only when you can document that Kobe's poor physical health, the stigma of his scandal and feuds with teammates are bringing his team losses and keeping them out of a playoff race. Not based on amatuer speculation and conjecture.

Kobe has not shot hoops for months,

Could you please give us a more detailed and specific rundown of Kobe's off/pre season training regimen or lack thereof? If for some reason you cannot meet this request, a simple link to an article or quote from Kobe himself or a trainer or Phil jackzen or a clsoe friend, paraphrasing in whatever sense that "Kobe has not shot hoops for months"

he has not worked out in months, he has not gone through therapy on his knee and shoulder, he has the body of a rookie after an injury,

I think we can do some simple consolidation here and say that the assessment that Kobe is a cancer to the team because of his current sup-par physical conditioning. His rookie body has more to do with the drama in his life currently that's most likely affected his eating habits and workout regimen than any injury he recieved. Assuming that Kobe is aquitted of charges, the only matter of consideration if we are to even speculate if Kobe is detrimental to his team as it wouldn't matter if he was going to jail. If so, he will get better, start eating again and get back into shape. Shaq plays himself into shape every year, why not Kobe for a season?

, he is a cancer on the team and that is the end of it.

cancer is a strong label, one that requires a greater burden of proof than speculation on various reasons as to why kobe may be detrimental to the team. A Cancer is something that can rot away a franchise and spoil the whole club. Such labels have been applied to Nick Van Exel (and rightly so) as well as Stephon Marbury. Beyond the current drama that follows Kobe around this year, I see no reason to think that the 5 time all star, 3 time champ, and man many conclude to be the most talented player in the game today, is a cancer.

[grbh]

Erica, I am not rude very often, but I'm going to be here. I don't like Kobe; he bugs me, and he might be a rapist.

I could continue to play the qupte breakdown game, but it gets tiring.

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA, and to say the Lakers are better without him, makes you look like an enormous homer.

And I still haven't heard how the Mavs are better without Dirk?

[Drbio]

What I see happeneing here is that everyone pretty much agrees on showbe's talent level. We only disagree on whether or not it would be best for the flakers to have him around at this point in time. I think he needs to settle his legal and domestic issues before playing. It is in the best interest of him, his family, the legal system, and imho the flakers. My opinion won't change on that and those who don't agree and feel showbe should play through will probably not change either. At least respect the other view, no matter which side you fall on in this issue.

[LRB]

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

[Epitome22]

Originally posted by: LRB

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

IMO it's not much room at all to doubt whether or not Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA because very little of it has anything to do with his physical playing ability and the little that does is in no way something that is permanant or career affecting. The rest is conjecture and speculation that frankly, doesen't amount up too much. It doesen't become a very debatable point of whether Kobe is still one of the greats until he steps out on the court and shows that he can't play anymore. The most that could be feasibly summed from this conjecture is that Kobe will have a poor season. None of it has any impact on whether or not Kobe is one of the elite players in the league, until his play demonstrates this season and successive seasons that it does.

[Drbio]

Isn't it also conjecture and speculation to assume the legal and home problems won't affect him negatively?

[EricaLubarsky]

cancer is a strong label, one that requires a greater burden of proof

I didnt know this was a court room. There is no burden of proof. This is just childish. Cancer is a metaphorical term used often on this site and others for a player that hurt a team. Period. Youve been around for a while you should know that.

What I said is that I wouldnt believe Kobe would be worth having until he actually played AND helped his team. That is not burden of proof material.

And if you dissagree with me then you dont think he is a cancer right now. This isnt some court case here.

any particular objective reason you are referring to kobe Bryant by a derisive nickname?

because he no longer is Kobe, he is a television show and a newspaper column AND I stole it from Dr. Bio. Go bug him about it.

Not based on amatuer speculation and conjecture.

Where, on any place on this thread is there an example of anything but "speculation and conjecture". What I say is speculation and conjecture, but what others say about last years performance is not?

think we can do some simple consolidation here and say that the assessment that Kobe is a cancer to the team because of his current sup-par physical conditioning. His rookie body has more to do with the drama in his life currently that's most likely affected his eating habits and workout regimen than any injury he recieved. Assuming that Kobe is aquitted of charges, the only matter of consideration if we are to even speculate if Kobe is detrimental to his team as it wouldn't matter if he was going to jail. If so, he will get better, start eating again and get back into shape. Shaq plays himself into shape every year, why not Kobe for a season?

If you would have read my posts carefully you would have read that my assessment of Kobe is a temporal one. Right now and until Kobe gets into shape and gets his legal and psychological matters taken care of he is a cancer. Shaq's lack of an excercise regimen doesnt have anything to do with this.

Such labels have been applied to Nick Van Exel (and rightly so) as well as Stephon Marbury.

Wait, I need to give evidence for why a player who doesnt play for the team and is on trial for RAPING A WOMAN is a cancer but Starbury and NVE, you admit, are? Try to keep yourself straight, Epi

I see no reason to think that the 5 time all star, 3 time champ, and man many conclude to be the most talented player in the game today, is a cancer.

You admitted yourself he is out of shape and not the same guy as last year. Let me quote LRB because you arent reading enough of this thread.

Kobe WAS one of the best players in the NBA. Whether he still is, is a very debatable point. Physically he's nowhere close to where he has been physically when he was one of the best players in the NBA. He hasn't practiced or been able to work out near like he had been able to. And he has a felony trial hanging over his head that could send him to jail for the rest of his life. That would affect almost anyone's concentration. And to top if off he has to try and overcome an infedelity problem in his marriage. Gee, IMO, that's plenty of room to doubt that Kobe is anywhere close to being one of the best in the NBA.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: Drbio
What I see happeneing here is that everyone pretty much agrees on showbe's talent level. We only disagree on whether or not it would be best for the flakers to have him around at this point in time. I think he needs to settle his legal and domestic issues before playing. It is in the best interest of him, his family, the legal system, and imho the flakers. My opinion won't change on that and those who don't agree and feel showbe should play through will probably not change either. At least respect the other view, no matter which side you fall on in this issue.

good rundown, Dr

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Epitome22

IMO it's not much room at all to doubt whether or not Kobe is still one of the best players in the NBA because very little of it has anything to do with his physical playing ability and the little that does is in no way something that is permanant or career affecting. The rest is conjecture and speculation that frankly, doesen't amount up too much. It doesen't become a very debatable point of whether Kobe is still one of the greats until he steps out on the court and shows that he can't play anymore. The most that could be feasibly summed from this conjecture is that Kobe will have a poor season. None of it has any impact on whether or not Kobe is one of the elite players in the league, until his play demonstrates this season and successive seasons that it does.

The point is Kobe hasn't even been able to step out on the court and show us anything. It may not be conclusive to absolutely determine whether he's totally slipped out of elite status or not. But there is still lots of room for legitimate debate. Just because he's to F'ed up to play, be it mentally, physically, or a combination of the both doesn't mean there is no room to debate his ability. Considering how a layoff can affect even the greatest players. And all Kobe needs to really drop to is the level of Fin, not to a Raja Bell, for it to be ablicable that the Lakers might be better without him than with him.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally posted by: grbh

And I still haven't heard how the Mavs are better without Dirk?

I told you. Next time read the posts. I thought it would be obvious by telling you what was wrong with Kobe and what Dirk is doing that makes him NOT a cancer. I read all your posts. The considerate thing would be to read mine before commenting

[Epitome22]

Originally posted by: Drbio
Isn't it also conjecture and speculation to assume the legal and home problems won't affect him negatively?

It's a valid assumption to assume that Kobe's legal and domestic woes would affect his playing. It' sobviously taken a toll on him physically. But it is speculation and conjecture when you are making the case that such current woes will be a career altering experience or that they will somehow turn arguably the best player in the game into a non elite caliber player.

[EricaLubarsky]

The point is Kobe hasn't even been able to step out on the court and show us anything. It may not be conclusive to absolutely determine whether he's totally slipped out of elite status or not. But there is still lots of room for legitimate debate. Just because he's to F'ed up to play, be it mentally, physically, or a combination of the both doesn't mean there is no room to debate his ability. Considering how a layoff can affect even the greatest players. And all Kobe needs to really drop to is the level of Fin, not to a Raja Bell, for it to be ablicable that the Lakers might be better without him than with him.

I award LRB 6 points.

[EricaLubarsky]

the "derisive" 2x

[EricaLubarsky]

But it is speculation and conjecture when you are making the case that such current woes will be a career altering experience or that they will somehow turn arguably the best player in the game into a non elite caliber player.

Read my post next time.

[Epitome22]

Originally posted by: LRB

The point is Kobe hasn't even been able to step out on the court and show us anything. It may not be conclusive to absolutely determine whether he's totally slipped out of elite status or not. But there is still lots of room for legitimate debate. Just because he's to F'ed up to play, be it mentally, physically, or a combination of the both doesn't mean there is no room to debate his ability. Considering how a layoff can affect even the greatest players. And all Kobe needs to really drop to is the level of Fin, not to a Raja Bell, for it to be ablicable that the Lakers might be better without him than with him.

We're talking about a layoff of maybe 2-3 months permanantly affecting Kobe' elite ability. Players have been seriously injured longer than that, missed more time and still seemed to pick up where there careers left off. Considering that there isn't even a potentially career altering injury factored in, then that is just not a sound argument.

[EricaLubarsky]

That said Kobe is one of the best players in the NBA, and to say the Lakers are better without him, makes you look like an enormous homer.

congratulations! DrBio, LRB and Myself are the newest homers to the board.

[EricaLubarsky]

We're talking about a layoff of maybe 2-3 months permanantly affecting Kobe' elite ability

no.

we arent.

[Epitome22]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

Read my post next time.

??? I'll make a note to read your post next time when I'm actually addressing you or something which you have said.

[EricaLubarsky]

LRB wasnt talking about Kobe's career either. If you had read any of DrBio, LRB's or my posts you would know that.

Anyway, Im getting some sleep and as there isnt a true answer here I will show my respect to those that disagreed with me, although I wont for those that didnt read the posts and didnt follow the real arguments being made.

Is Kobe a cancer on his team right now? Maybe. Are his ablilities on par with last year? Definitely not. Is anyone arguing that he wasnt a top5 player or that he cannot become one again? no.

ten points to all for playing. It's nice to get some hot debate going, although it left the real subject at the bottom of the first page. My reponse to GHB might have started that.

[Epitome22]

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky

no.

we arent.

??? You're right WE Weren't but since you joined the discussion, since my statements were addressed to LRB particularly his case which can be summed up with the paraphrasing of "Kobe Was one of the best players in game" and no longer is, allegedly because of something that's happened in the last few months then yes that is what "We" are talking about.

[EricaLubarsky]

??? You're right WE Weren't but since you joined the discussion, since my statements were addressed to LRB particularly his case which can be summed up with the paraphrasing of "Kobe Was one of the best players in game" and no longer is, allegedly because of something that's happened in the last few months then yes that is what "We" are talking about.

Come on man. Let me say it again to pad my number of posts, No one is saying Kobe wasnt a great player and no one is saying that he won't get back to that level. The only thing I have read and I have read all the posts, is that Kobe's talents are diminished right now.

You're right WE Weren't but since you joined the discussion

Since I joined the discussion? You were specifically responding to something said earlier, so when did you switch and since when has anyone been talking about the above. Oh, maybe you are awarding yourself value because I somehow jumped into the argument much later. It was your first post that somehow established your earlier place in this thread

Originally posted by: Epitome22
Agreed.


Kobe is excellence

[LRB]

Originally posted by: Epitome22

We're talking about a layoff of maybe 2-3 months permanantly affecting Kobe' elite ability. Players have been seriously injured longer than that, missed more time and still seemed to pick up where there careers left off. Considering that there isn't even a potentially career altering injury factored in, then that is just not a sound argument.

Really which players have had a several month layoff and been able to come back at their previous level without fully rehabilitating, without several weeks of working out and practicing, and with a major felony charge hangin over their heads? Just who are these players.

And there are several players who have had injuries and off the court problems who have never been able to come back to their previous levels. Just because some do, doesn't mean all do. And most don't immediately get back to their former level. There takes a breaking in period where they just don't play at that level.

IMO Kobe should be back and practicing for several weeks before playing or the Lakers risk him being more of a detrimate than a positive just from the physical aspect. Now you throw in the emotional baggage that wouldn't fit on a 747, who knows what will happen. BTW how do we know that this isn't a potentially career altering injury? I doubt that it is, but nothing is 100% certain. Any injury that requires surgery has a potential to be career ending.

And how will kobe handle the pressure. What he's going through, no popular athelete of his magnitude has gone through at his age and while competing. Roy Tarpley and a host of others succumbed to emotional pressure that wasn't near what Kobe is going through. Maybe he will come through fine. Maybe he won't. But to think that it will have little affect on him is very naive IMO.

[Shaq Attack2]

Are his ablilities on par with last year? Definitely not.

You're assuming that Kobe needs to be in 2003 shape to be effective, and you're sorely mistaken. A 2002 Kobe is more than adequate (Lakers did win the title that year after all), and he's still a legit MVP candidate in 2002 form. Kobe gained 15 pounds of pure muscle in the summer of 2002 and lost 15 pounds of muscle this past summer. He's gaining it back as we speak, and it's reasonable to assume (based on his history) that he will be back to 2003 form (or better) by the end of this year.

Is anyone arguing that he wasnt a top5 player or that he cannot become one again? no.

Then what's the point of even having a debate about Kobe being a top 5 player if the person debating that point knows that Kobe will likely be in top 5 shape within a 2 or 3 months anyway? Is it just to say "Kobe will not be in shape for 12 whole weeks!", knowing that that period will be insignificant to begin with?

And again, this is all assuming Kobe's play will be affected by the rape trial. Based on his history of coming through during adversity, that's a silly assumption. Sure, it's a rape charge and it's quite serious, but tell me again why Kobe should be scared at all if he knows he's innocent? If I'm innocent and have the best lawyers money can buy am I really going to be affected by those facts while playing basketball? Please. Of course, it's a whole other story if he's guilty in reality. But again, no one but Kobe knows that. And again, no one but Kobe knows how his marriage will be affected by this case. For all we know it's brought the couple closer.

Therefore, right now, any speculation about how Kobe's play will be affected negatively by the rape trial isn't based on any evidence whatsoever. People arguing that Kobe will not be affected by the rape trial on the court have his history to point to as evidence to support their argument. Me, I’m taking a neutral stance on this because it’s such a serious charge that has garnered massive media attention. However, if I have to lean somewhere I will lean towards Kobe being between 2002 and 2003 form for the beginning of the season and well on his way past 2003 form by next year’s playoffs.

[EricaLubarsky]

SA2 you are using as much speculation as we are. Just so you know.

Then what's the point of even having a debate about Kobe being a top 5 player if the person debating that point knows that Kobe will likely be in top 5 shape within a 2 or 3 months anyway?

You are saying EXACTLY what everyone else has said and THAT is a waste of time. If you dont want to be a part of a debate that has to do with Kobe's current abilities then don't comment here, buddy.

this is all assuming Kobe's play will be affected by the rape trial.

No, its not. Its assuming that coming back in poor shape will affect his play. Its all based on the fact that Kobe lost 15 pounds and hasnt kept up with his conditioning and training

[Shaq Attack2]

SA2 you are using as much speculation as we are. Just so you know.

Just so you know, you're wrong.

You are saying EXACTLY what everyone else has said and THAT is a waste of time. If you dont want to be a part of a debate that has to do with Kobe's current abilities then don't comment here, buddy.

I have been commenting on the debate just fine. Apparently you'd rather nit pick how good Kobe will be as of this very moment than actually admit that, based on his history, Kobe will be back to true form within just a couple months. Though, only when the realization of this fact dawns on you towards the end of the year when Kobe will be playing MVP ball will you admit as much, and admit that it's of basically zero consequence if Kobe is in 2002 or 2003 shape at this very moment given that either Kobe is still an MVP candidate.

No, its not. Its assuming that coming back in poor shape will affect his play. Its all based on the fact that Kobe lost 15 pounds and hasnt kept up with his conditioning and training.

No, apparently you don't really follow Laker basketball much so it's understandable that you under little of what's actually going on here. In the summer of 2002, Kobe decided to go on what's called the 6-6-6 program, something he had never done (at least in its fullest form) before. The 6-6-6 program is intensive, calling for 6 hours of workout per day for 6 days a week for 6 weeks straight. The workout is usually heavily oriented toward weight training, but I believe Kobe said he did some significant cardiovascular workout as well.

Anyway, this past summer, Kobe obviously didn’t have the time (or inclination) to continue with this program or at least do some variation of it, since too much of the 6-6-6 can affect play negatively, as weighing 220 lbs is more than enough given his height (and too much actually if you ask me, he played better defense in 2002 when he was lighter IMO). So understandably, Kobe lost 15 lbs this summer and is back around the 205 mark he was at in 2002.

Anyway, the point is that Kobe’s 6-6-6 program that allowed him to gain that 15 lbs of muscle in the summer of 2002 simply wasn’t executed this summer. To say he is out of shape or not conditioned is false when Kobe himself said he was still able to get in some workout this summer (this was said about 3-4 weeks ago) and also when he said just a couple days ago that he felt unusually well conditioned for this time of year (at this point, Kobe had been training for two weeks). When Kobe plays in his first game this Thursday it will have been about 3 weeks since training camp.

In the end, it’s ludicrous to think that Kobe is out of shape based on some hack job article or based on Phil’s media-twisting Zen comments. Though, you don’t have to agree of course, just wait until this Thursday and perhaps then you'll have a different tone.