Official offseason 2013-2014 thread - Page 4 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

nowhereman · 04-02-2013, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac222b

Would take Wall in a heartbeat, but is there really anyway he'll come available to the Mavs? Won't Wizards just max him out?

double post

Budapest Maverick · 04-02-2013, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

They started the season 5-28. They're above .500 with him back in the lineup, and 18-15 with him starting. This despite playing on one of the worst teams in the league, with constant injuries to Nene, Ariza, Beal, Barbosa, and missing games from Okafor and Webster. He's commonly carrying guys like Garrett Temple, Seraphim, Singleton, Jan Vesely (who is beyond awful), Martin, and a bunch of other fringe NBA guys to wins. These include some significant wins, including impressive ones against the Grizzlies, Lakers, Rockets, Nuggets, Nets, Knicks, Clippers, Bulls.

Since the all-star game he's averaging 19.4/7.9/4.4 on .453/.455/.844 in ~34 mpg. They're +3.6/100 possessions with him and -6.2/100 possessions without him (for a +9.8/100 possessions net).

He's a tall, lightning quick guard that can get to the rim at will, runs the break to near perfection, is above average on defense (though could improve his positioning), has continued to improve every year, makes his teammates significantly better, has a demonstrated ability to take over a game, has been terrific playing out of the pick and roll, and, oh, he's 22 and barely scratching the surface. It's lazy and ignorant to dismiss him.

That is a terribly little sample size for someone who was a complete failure in his first 2 seasons. Honestly, at this point there is not even a body of work that is worth to dismiss. We're talking about nothing at this point, pure potential, fiction if you like. Nothing lazy or ignorant about my statements imo. His recent 3 point shooting is obviously a fluke, and it will regress.

His scoring efficiency is still terrible, and even during that good run is inconsistent, and his turnover % is also still way too high. There is nothing that indicates at this point that he is not an all too well known combination of high usage and low scoring efficiency. Based on your scouting report i would think we're talking about a young Jordan btw. You are a huge John Wall fan aren't you? Wow. He's probably a bust if you'd ask that now, and you're telling tales about his sophomore year improvements? He improved consistently in his second year? Really? His second year was a total failure, and the consensus was that he absolutely failed to improve his game. Sorry, hard to take your seriously.

And don't get me wrong please, i was very, very high on Wall, still are in fact (on his potential). I really thought he will be a Rose/Paul combo. That idea couldn't be further from the truth so far. As you said, he's only 22, and he has superstar potential, no question about it, but he is faaaar from an impact player at this point, even that improved version of himself. The truth is, he was supposed to be that, and more in his rookie year.

LonghornDub · 04-02-2013, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

I'd probably place Derrick Rose ahead of him.

Yeah, you could go that way. I think Wall may be a bit more athletic while Rose is just smarter and more effective in how he uses his athleticism. But that's a narrow line to draw.

Budapest Maverick · 04-02-2013, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

John Wall is so much better than Calderon, it's ridiculous.

Much worse shooter and a little worse passer, miles better defender, and theoretically a much better scorer, but never really showed it in the NBA. Honestly, it's close at this point and time. Obviously, any team, GM, or fan would take Wall because of his potential.

Budapest Maverick · 04-02-2013, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Yeah, you could go that way. I think Wall may be a bit more athletic while Rose is just smarter and more effective in how he uses his athleticism. But that's a narrow line to draw.

If we're talking about MVP Rose, it's really not that narrow of a line. That was leapes and bounds better than any of Wall's seasons, going by the eye test, advanced metrics, any kind of stats really, you name it. Again, when it comes to Wall, we're talking, we has to talk about potential. There is not much else to go on so far. And yes, i would probably agree with nowherman on this, Wall's ceiling is higher than Rose's was (now it is obvious with Rose's injury). He could potentially be just as lethal of a scorer, but a better passer, and maybe a better defender as well.

grndmstr_c · 04-02-2013, 08:03 PM

I think LDub's just talking athleticism.

LonghornDub · 04-02-2013, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

If we're talking about MVP Rose, it's really not that narrow of a line. That was leapes and bounds better than any of Wall's seasons, going by the eye test, advanced metrics, any kind of stats really, you name it. Again, when it comes to Wall, we're talking, we has to talk about potential. There is not much else to go on so far. And yes, i would probably agree with nowherman on this, Wall's ceiling is higher than Rose's was (now it is obvious with Rose's injury). He could potentially be just as lethal of a scorer, but a better passer, and maybe a better defender as well.

That's not at all what I meant by "narrow line." I meant that it's difficult to try and parse out pure athleticism versus the ability to smartly use that athleticism.

I never said Wall was better than Rose at any point. I said I thought he might be more athletic.

nowhereman · 04-02-2013, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

That is a terribly little sample size for someone who was a complete failure in his first 2 seasons. Honestly, at this point there is not even a body of work that is worth to dismiss. We're talking about nothing at this point, pure potential, fiction if you like. Nothing lazy or ignorant about my statements imo. His recent 3 point shooting is obviously a fluke, and it will regress.

His scoring efficiency is still terrible, and even during that good run is inconsistent, and his turnover % is also still way too high. There is nothing that indicates at this point that he is not an all too well known combination of high usage and low scoring efficiency. Based on your scouting report i would think we're talking about a young Jordan btw. You are a huge John Wall fan aren't you? Wow. He's probably a bust if you'd ask that now, and you're telling tales about his sophomore year improvements? He improved consistently in his second year? Really? His second year was a total failure, and the consensus was that he absolutely failed to improve his game. Sorry, hard to take your seriously.

And don't get me wrong please, i was very, very high on Wall, still are in fact (on his potential). I really thought he will be a Rose/Paul combo. That idea couldn't be further from the truth so far. As you said, he's only 22, and he has superstar potential, no question about it, but he is faaaar from an impact player at this point, even that improved version of himself. The truth is, he was supposed to be that, and more in his rookie year.

That's not how sample size arguments work. My arguments aren't stat driven. I'm saying he has absurd ability and talent. That talent is reflected in his production. I'm not saying he's talented because of his production.

Oh, and he just dominated the Bulls. Basically controlled the game there. Running up and down the court with guys like Singleton, Seraphin, Temple, Beal, and Nene. This guy is legit and is today clearly one of the 7-8 best PGs in the game.

sefant77 · 04-03-2013, 12:23 AM

sefant77 · 04-03-2013, 12:24 AM

Save to say that Kaman is gone and James/DC because Dirk gonna ask/beg for a real PG

sefant77 · 04-03-2013, 12:26 AM

And Wall isnt coming to here.

We are looking at Jack/Jennings or Lowry next season.

Rick41 · 04-03-2013, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

And Wall isnt coming to here.

We are looking at Jack/Jennings or Lowry next season.

Calderon.

MavsFTR · 04-03-2013, 12:41 AM

I hope the FO turns their attention to the draft and free agents now.

sefant77 · 04-03-2013, 12:42 AM

Ah yes, forgot about him.

Thats our four solid options for PG.

Budapest Maverick · 04-03-2013, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

That's not at all what I meant by "narrow line." I meant that it's difficult to try and parse out pure athleticism versus the ability to smartly use that athleticism.

I never said Wall was better than Rose at any point. I said I thought he might be more athletic.

Yeah, sorry.

Budapest Maverick · 04-03-2013, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

That's not how sample size arguments work. My arguments aren't stat driven. I'm saying he has absurd ability and talent. That talent is reflected in his production. I'm not saying he's talented because of his production. Oh, and he just dominated the Bulls. Basically controlled the game there.

I agree he has elite talent, and that his current production reflects that, but given how his first 2 years went down, i think he needs to show this a lot longer to get there, where i think you think he already is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

Running up and down the court with guys like Singleton, Seraphin, Temple, Beal, and Nene.

One of those guys is not like the others. Rubio would kill for a guy like Nene right now. Or at least he would have killed for him a couple weeks ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nowhereman

This guy is legit and is today clearly one of the 7-8 best PGs in the game.

Sounds about right if we go by this Wall, which, again, i'm hesitant to do just yet, but yeah. I think Paul, Westbrook, Rose, Parker, Irving, Rondo, Williams are clearly better at their best (at this point), and i think you could argue Curry as well. That would still make Wall top 10, with maybe Rubio rounding up that top 10.

Budapest Maverick · 04-03-2013, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

Ah yes, forgot about him.

Thats our four solid options for PG.

Or Evans. It would be terrible if we would max out Jennings. Wow, it's cringe-worthy to even think about it. Brrrr. Lowry is a good player, although Raps fans swear he has the exact same problem that we are bashing our PG's for. He can't make an entry pass to save his life, and a bit of a chucker. Calderon is the best passer of the bunch, but is old, and a terrible defender. I'd might roll with Jarrett Jack, i could see him average 15 and 6 here, with very good defense. And maybe he would be the cheapest? We could give the max to Pek, and maybe sign Igoudala too?

Jack
Igoudala
Marion
Dirk
Pekovic

Would be formidable. Maybe totally impossible cap-wise though.

Sportstudi · 04-03-2013, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

And Wall isnt coming to here.

We are looking at Jack/Jennings or Lowry next season.

No thanks to Jennings. IMO he's more a shoot-first PG than a pass-first like JKidd was in his days as a Mav (no, I'm not comparing these two in terms of skills; it's pretty clear that JKidd is one of a kind). Yes, he's averaging 6.8 apg, but still. Jennings is also a horrific shooter (career average .393). Based on what I heard about him and his attitude it wouldn't surprise me if the game is one the line to watch him to go hero mode, missing the bucket instead of giving the ball to Dirk.

spreedom · 04-03-2013, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Or Evans. It would be terrible if we would max out Jennings. Wow, it's cringe-worthy to even think about it. Brrrr. Lowry is a good player, although Raps fans swear he has the exact same problem that we are bashing our PG's for. He can't make an entry pass to save his life, and a bit of a chucker. Calderon is the best passer of the bunch, but is old, and a terrible defender. I'd might roll with Jarrett Jack, i could see him average 15 and 6 here, with very good defense. And maybe he would be the cheapest? We could give the max to Pek, and maybe sign Igoudala too?

Jack
Igoudala
Marion
Dirk
Pekovic

Would be formidable. Maybe totally impossible cap-wise though.

What do you mean, maybe? That will just never happen. Minnesota will match any Pek offer, Iggy can get more from Denver, and that leaves us with Jack, who is looking at probably the biggest payday of his career this offseason. We could afford Jack and one of those guys, but certainly not both. Especially if we're keeping Marion.

markus1234 · 04-03-2013, 09:35 AM

I fear the next couple of seasons will look like this, even if we improve our roster

--------------- contenders

MEM
LAC
SAS
DEN
LAL
HOU
OKC

--------------- fighting for a playoff spot

MIN
POR
DAL
UTAH
SAC

Cuban and Donnie forget that other w-conf. teams are also improving.

saclare · 04-03-2013, 09:49 AM

I take Wall in a heart beat but he isn't available for another year, so he can't quite be discussed.

saclare · 04-03-2013, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markus1234

I fear the next couple of seasons will look like this, even if we improve our roster

--------------- contenders

MEM
LAC
SAS
DEN
LAL
HOU
OKC

--------------- fighting for a playoff spot

MIN
POR
DAL
UTAH
SAC

Cuban and Donnie forget that other w-conf. teams are also improving.

Meh, I'll say that the only shoe-ins are SAS, OKC, DEN. LAC have to keep their team together before saying they will be in it next year. LAL have to do that, and fight the decline of primes and age. MEM and HOU are still a piece or two away from seriously contending for a title, but I do agree MEM will be in the playoffs. POR is a team I'd be more worried about before HOU and maybe even MEM at this point. MIN and UTAH have some good pieces and can get better quickly, which could pose some problems. SAC is just stuck in a spinning wheel of mediocrity. We could easily get back to regular playoff seasons and slowly get back to annual contenders.

Budapest Maverick · 04-03-2013, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

What do you mean, maybe? That will just never happen. Minnesota will match any Pek offer, Iggy can get more from Denver, and that leaves us with Jack, who is looking at probably the biggest payday of his career this offseason. We could afford Jack and one of those guys, but certainly not both. Especially if we're keeping Marion.

Not a cap guru, sorry. I'm not sure Minny would match the max. for Pek. Remember, they have to extend Rubio in 2 years, and they doesn't strike me as a team that would field 3 max player, and paying all that luxury tax once they reupped Rubio. I think Igoudala could get around 10-11 million, and no more, we would be all right giving 8-9 to Mayo, why not 10 to Igoudala? How much cap space would we have if we trade Marion?

sefant77 · 04-03-2013, 01:03 PM

we may have little bit more than 20m cap

Iggy and peko will go for at least 25m combined. Jack at least 5m....

dude1394 · 04-03-2013, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

Not a cap guru, sorry. I'm not sure Minny would match the max. for Pek. Remember, they have to extend Rubio in 2 years, and they doesn't strike me as a team that would field 3 max player, and paying all that luxury tax once they reupped Rubio. I think Igoudala could get around 10-11 million, and no more, we would be all right giving 8-9 to Mayo, why not 10 to Igoudala? How much cap space would we have if we trade Marion?

Some teams really value a big man.

Budapest Maverick · 04-04-2013, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

we may have little bit more than 20m cap

Iggy and peko will go for at least 25m combined. Jack at least 5m....

Well that's depressing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Some teams really value a big man.

We've been through that, Cuban offered 20 million for Chandler. He was turning 30, injury-ridden career, was considered a "contract year player", and there were superstars on the market. I mean, it doesn't get any more "no brainer" than that. And we would be sitting exactly here btw, Dirk would have started last season out of shape in that scenario too. We may would have a 39 years old Kidd, and a 36 years old Terry, and one of the oldest teams ever, playing in a vastly improved conference.

DGM · 04-04-2013, 04:18 PM

can tyreke evans and monta ellis be starting pg in the nba?

EricaLubarsky · 04-04-2013, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sefant77

we may have little bit more than 20m cap

Iggy and peko will go for at least 25m combined. Jack at least 5m....

That's the hard truth. Unless we make a trade, Dirk, Carter, and Marion will be 35 million of our 58-60mill. That means we have about 25mill for the other 12 positions-- not 25mill for big-name free agents. If we were to sign Dwight or Iggy, we'd essentially have to give up on Mayo returning and fill the rest of the roster with 1-2 mill vet min or rookie min guys and I'm not sure that Dirk/J. Smith/Marion, Dirk/Howard/Marion, or Dirk/Marion/Iggy would be enough to really challenge in the West.

I'd love to pick up a big name FA this summer, but we really only have room for one max guy or two guys in the 8-10 range and a bunch of cheap talent.

chumdawg · 04-04-2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

That's the hard truth. Unless we make a trade, Dirk, Carter, and Marion will be 35 million of our 58-60mill. That means we have about 25mill for the other 12 positions-- not 25mill for big-name free agents. If we were to sign Dwight or Iggy, we'd essentially have to give up on Mayo returning and fill the rest of the roster with 1-2 mill vet min or rookie min guys and I'm not sure that Dirk/J. Smith/Marion, Dirk/Howard/Marion, or Dirk/Marion/Iggy would be enough to really challenge in the West.

I'd love to pick up a big name FA this summer, but we really only have room for one max guy or two guys in the 8-10 range and a bunch of cheap talent.

I find that to be a very narrow view.

adonis · 04-04-2013, 10:10 PM

Take your pick.

Hell, I'd rather take this guy.

MavsFTR · 04-04-2013, 11:13 PM

If we stay with the same rank till the end of the season, which draft pick will we get and who do you think we would draft?

vcmavs25 · 04-04-2013, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

If we stay with the same rank till the end of the season, which draft pick will we get and who do you think we would draft?

we trade the pick

Budapest Maverick · 04-05-2013, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

If we stay with the same rank till the end of the season, which draft pick will we get and who do you think we would draft?

Giannis Adetokoubo if he falls to us. He won't, wouldn't be surprised if he goes top 5 in this draft. He, and another 5-6 prospect in the first round could really help us, some even short term. Of course it's always a gamble, when it comes to the draft. I think we don't have to send our pick this year to the team we owe one (don't remember which team), so i guess you don't send away a lottery pick, so we keep our draft pick.

nowhereman · 04-05-2013, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

If we stay with the same rank till the end of the season, which draft pick will we get and who do you think we would draft?

NBADraft.net has us taking Glenn Robinson III and I'd be okay with that. http://nbadraft.net/players/glenn-robinson-iii

Although I'm pretty sure we'll trade the pick.

Rick41 · 04-05-2013, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcmavs25

we trade the pick

Knowing the Donnie and Cuban, they always pull some stupid shit like that during draft day. (although last year got us Crowder)

Remember drafting Nick Fazekas, and Mo Ager? Dojo?

Remember trading Corey Brewer for a half eaten snickers bar?

EricaLubarsky · 04-05-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick41

Knowing the Donnie and Cuban, they always pull some stupid shit like that during draft day. (although last year got us Crowder)

Remember drafting Nick Fazekas, and Mo Ager? Dojo?

Remember trading Corey Brewer for a half eaten snickers bar?

I really wish you actually based the post on truth and logic.

Fazekas? Are you really going to complain about a second round pick?
Dojo? a very late first.
Ager? A 28th overall?
Brewer? We traded a talented guy that cost us nothing but couldnt grt off the bench for a second round draft pick.

So sad that instead of making real complaints (there are many) you decide to criticize them on th most irrelevant things they've done.

Remind me about the statistics on 25-30 picks? Remind me about how many second rounders actually stay in the league. I'd love to know how getting a bad player with bad draft position is a terrible decision.

dude1394 · 04-05-2013, 10:46 AM

You make a point Erica...however the mavs have seldom given a durn about the draft, never seemed to take it seriously and always looking for home runs. Maybe that is the way to do it, but it seems short-sighted to me.

nowhereman · 04-05-2013, 11:11 AM

The Stats: you have a 37.5% chance of landing at least a solid roleplayer between 25-30 in the draft. http://82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm. But instead, let's look at what the Mavericks have done in the draft. http://www.basketball-reference.com/...DAL/draft.html. While the Mavs haven't really underperformed, they've really not done anything of real value in the draft since Don was still here.

sefant77 · 04-05-2013, 12:54 PM

We traded Brewer to erase his guaranteed salary so we can throw a max contract around....

sefant77 · 04-05-2013, 01:04 PM

I think Paul will stay of course. Dwight will stay or sign with Houston (im smelling something crazy and Dwight tells Morey he signs if he is able to switch Asik with Josh Smith and sign Morrow (the two best buddies of Dwight). Competing in Houston with his buddies or being Kobes bitch in LA...i can see Dwight doing this.

Forget Peko. Wolves wanna keep him because they have to make the playoffs or Love is gone when his contract ends. I also see the Blazers throwing huge money at Peko (they offered Hibbert max last summer). I dont want Peko with such a huge price tag with Gortat/Okafor/Cousins/Bogut available in 2014.

So we have then the 11m+ FA (Iggy, Smith, Peko) and the 6-9m guys (Calderon, Mayo, Jack, Jennings). Sign one of each group and do next summer the same, filling the remaining two starting five spots with solid guys (Granger, Gortat, Deng, Bogut, Cousins, Okafor, Lowry etc).

Try to keep Wright and Morrow.

PF like Millsap, Jefferson or West we do not need because they cant play SF or C.