Do the Mavericks need a third star at all? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Thespiralgoeson · 01-16-2021, 02:03 PM

The quest for another star has dominated all conversation about the Mavericks for much of the past two years. We have separate threads on the front page about Zach Lavine and Bradley Beal. Other names have been linked to the Mavs in recent weeks- Oladipo, Drummond, probably more I'm forgetting.

But then there are others who say that the Mavs are solid as they are, and that we don't need another "star," maybe just a tweak here and there.

The question is simply, is KP good enough to be the second best player on a championship team? Is the core duo of Luka and KP enough to build a perennial contender around?

There doesn't seem to be a consensus. The opinion seems fairly split down the middle. I'll say right off the bat, I don't believe KP is that caliber of player, and I believe we do need another major upgrade if we ever want to be in the main event instead of merely on the midcard.

Some might think of this as "hating" on KP. I promise it isn't. It's just an honest opinion of his game. I like him a lot. And I don't blame him for his injuries. That's obviously not his fault. But I just see him as a good player- not a great one. I see him as a top 35ish player. There's no shame in only being the third best player on a championship team. Shawn Marion, Ray Allen, Robert Parish, Draymond Green, Dennis Rodman, Manu Ginobili, Chris Bosh... a lot of players with fantastic legacies were only ever the third best player on their title teams.

I'm just thinking about the history of NBA championships. Looking at most of them, the second (and often third) best player is usually significantly better than KP. Going through the last 40 years of NBA history and seeing who the second best player on each champion was-

80s Lakers- Magic/Kareem/Worthy depending on the year. All of them better than KP.

80s Celtics- McHale. Light years better than KP. Parish was also better.

83 Sixers- Doctor J was the THIRD best player on that team. Enough said.

Bad Boy Pistons- Dumars. Hall of famer. Better than KP.

90s Bulls- Scottie. Light years better than KP.

94-95 Rockets- ??? 95 its Drexler, better than KP. 94 maybe? We'll give KP that one.

99 Spurs. Robinson. Past his prime, but arguably still better than KP. But since it's arguable, maybe we can give KP this one too?

00-02 Lakers. Kobe. Duh.

03 Spurs. ??? Give KP this one.

04 Pistons. The strangest title team ever. KP is either the best player on the team, or doesn’t even make the starting lineup.

05 Spurs. Parker and Ginobili both better than KP.

06 Heat. Shaq. Duh.

07 Spurs. Tony and Manu again.

08 Celtics- Big 3. Plus Rondo. KP might not even be 4th best player on this team.

9-10 Lakers. Pau. Way better than KP. Maybe Odom and Bynum too.

11 Mavs. Maybe??? Another strange title team. KP would be either the 2nd or the 5th best player.

12-13 Heat. Wade and Bosh both way better than KP.

14 Spurs. Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Kawhi. KP might not even start.

15 Warriors. Klay and Draymond both better than KP.

16 Cavs. Kyrie. Way better than KP.

17-18 Warriors. Maybe the greatest team ever. KP probably doesn’t even start.

19 Raptors. Maybe??? Lowry is more reliable though.

20 Lakers. AD light years better than KP.

That's pretty much where I'm at. 40 years of championships, and to my count, KP would only be the second best player on maybe 2-5 of them, depending on how generous you want to be.

Now I don't know who that third player could be that would move the needle enough for the Mavs. It could be that no such player exists at the moment. But that's not the same as saying that Mavs simply don't need another impact player to compete for the title, because I believe they do.

MFFL · 01-16-2021, 02:24 PM

Watching the game last night the announcer said Middleton was a great #2 man to win a championship

I disagree with that and I also disagree with the notion that Porzingis is good enough to be the #2 guy

If Middleton/Porzingis is your #2 then you need a 2B guy. Someone who is just about as good. Which is why the Bucks got Holiday

So we need another guy who is on the same tier as Porzingis

Dallas41 · 01-16-2021, 02:49 PM

This is a pretty good thread and I'd like to see how other's feel

But 1st on your comparison's

06 Heat. Shaq. Duh.

Shaq was actually on his last legs that year and by the time they reached the Finals you could make an argument that Alonzo Mourning was more effective vs Mavs that series.

19 Raptors. Maybe??? Lowry is more reliable though.

This is a good comparison because I feel as though the Mavs as constructed right now are closer to that Raptors team in terms of talent around the lone Super Star

You could make a strong case that Luka could be that guy like Leonard and all the pieces along with KP provides him a strong enough supporting cast to get it done.

Also, I agree with the Middleton comparison. I think KP is on Middleton level when he's healthy and in synch. But again his health is a big question mark until he proves otherwise. Having said that A.D. had a history of injuries earlier in his career as well before finally being a every day player.

I've thrown around names like Drummond, Lavine and Hield.

My belief is any of those 3 guys would be exceptional on the Mavs.

Drummond solves every issue we have with rebounding and interior defense plus he can get you inside buckets limiting the need to rely consistently on the 3-pt shots to drop late in games.

Games like yesterday vs Milwaukee with a guy like Drummond inside the Mavs win that game because there's no way in hell they get all those 2nd chance rebounds.

Lavine is a legit stud and would be an All Star better than Middleton IMO if he was on the right team. This dude in many ways is stranded like Devin Booker on a bad team that lacks veteran leadership. The best thing the Suns did this offseason was bring in Chris Paul.

I think Lavine in Dallas next to Luka would arguably be the best backcourt in the NBA. He would be more like THJ on steroroids with much better handles and playmaking skills.

Hield, I've kind of soured on him because I think he's too much like THJ. The difference between him and Lavine is that Lavine is more athletic and he can create shots for others. Hield doesn't do that which put's him the THJ category.

I'm on the boat that think's you can get to the Finals with KP as your 2nd best player but the team overall has to be very deep or you need a guy talent wise on the same level as KP.

mac222b · 01-16-2021, 03:04 PM

Yes we need another #2 or 2b player. Building around a big that can’t get his own shot makes for a flawed roster construct. I totally get the trade, we’d do it again 100x out 100. We just really could use another shot maker who can also space the floor and ideally defend. You mentioned Lowry. I think he was better than KP in the Raptors run, though they are around the same tier of player. He’s criminally underrated and if we added him this season we would be super dangerous. Doubt that’s happening though.

Dallas41 · 01-20-2021, 12:33 AM

I was reading this suggestion and thought if the Cavs wanted to give us Drummond for just peanuts why on earth would the Mavs say no....

I don't think the Cavs are that dumb

Dallas Mavericks Receive: Andre Drummond

Cleveland Cavaliers Receive: Dwight Powell, James Johnson, 2021 2nd Round Pick

Andre Drummond is one of the big men in the NBA who have stayed true to his craft. He is the best rebounder in the game and can dominate in the post. This would give Dallas a new dynamic on both ends of the floor.

Drummond is in the final year of his contract, which means the Mavericks have some leverage in the deal. Especially when considering the Cavaliers now have Jarrett Allen in the mix after the James Harden trade.

This means the Mavericks would not have to give up a ton in this trade. Dwight Powell is a player who would help Cleveland during their rebuilding process. James Johnson and a second-round pick in 2021 would also be sent to the Cavaliers.

mac222b · 01-20-2021, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I was reading this suggestion and thought if the Cavs wanted to give us Drummond for just peanuts why on earth would the Mavs say no....

I don't think the Cavs are that dumb

Dallas Mavericks Receive: Andre Drummond

Cleveland Cavaliers Receive: Dwight Powell, James Johnson, 2021 2nd Round Pick

Andre Drummond is one of the big men in the NBA who have stayed true to his craft. He is the best rebounder in the game and can dominate in the post. This would give Dallas a new dynamic on both ends of the floor.

Drummond is in the final year of his contract, which means the Mavericks have some leverage in the deal. Especially when considering the Cavaliers now have Jarrett Allen in the mix after the James Harden trade.

This means the Mavericks would not have to give up a ton in this trade. Dwight Powell is a player who would help Cleveland during their rebuilding process. James Johnson and a second-round pick in 2021 would also be sent to the Cavaliers.

I mean if they are dumb enough to take Powell’s contract maybe? What would Cleveland get out of it? Would suck to lose Johnson. I doubt Drummond is a guy we’d want to commit big money to. I don’t think either team would do it unless MBT think they could do some damage in FA with Powells contract off the books.

EricaLubarsky · 01-20-2021, 09:29 AM

I think we'll have to see when we actually get the team together for a single game. So far we haven't seen the team healthy.

My guess? Absolutely we need a piece or two. We don't need a superstar like LeBron or AD, but we can use another starter or quality bench guy. This summer or maybe the TDL will be a perfect time to acquire one. We don't have picks but we do have expiring deals this season and cap space this offseason.

BPo001 · 01-20-2021, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I was reading this suggestion and thought if the Cavs wanted to give us Drummond for just peanuts why on earth would the Mavs say no....

I don't think the Cavs are that dumb

Dallas Mavericks Receive: Andre Drummond

Cleveland Cavaliers Receive: Dwight Powell, James Johnson, 2021 2nd Round Pick

Andre Drummond is one of the big men in the NBA who have stayed true to his craft. He is the best rebounder in the game and can dominate in the post. This would give Dallas a new dynamic on both ends of the floor.

Drummond is in the final year of his contract, which means the Mavericks have some leverage in the deal. Especially when considering the Cavaliers now have Jarrett Allen in the mix after the James Harden trade.

This means the Mavericks would not have to give up a ton in this trade. Dwight Powell is a player who would help Cleveland during their rebuilding process. James Johnson and a second-round pick in 2021 would also be sent to the Cavaliers.

I don’t understand why Cleveland does this trade. Drummond is an expiring deal. Not sure why they would want Powell for additional years. I’m sure they can get more for Drummond than that offer.

EricaLubarsky · 01-20-2021, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BPo001

I don’t understand why Cleveland does this trade. Drummond is an expiring deal. Not sure why they would want Powell for additional years. I’m sure they can get more for Drummond than that offer.

100% this. If he's expiring and going to walk, they'd definitely look to get some value for him, but giving them Powell probably means having to give them even more value.

We also really don't have first-rounders unless they want to wait until 2025/2027.

Would a package of Green/Brunson/DFS/Terry and a 2025 first get it done? That's the best we can probably offer.

Dtownsfinest · 01-21-2021, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

Watching the game last night the announcer said Middleton was a great #2 man to win a championship

I disagree with that and I also disagree with the notion that Porzingis is good enough to be the #2 guy

If Middleton/Porzingis is your #2 then you need a 2B guy. Someone who is just about as good. Which is why the Bucks got Holiday

So we need another guy who is on the same tier as Porzingis

If Greek Freek didn't choke come playoff time Middleton would've been enough.

Dtownsfinest · 01-21-2021, 12:39 PM

I just think the best teams win. Whether that's 4 All Stars or 3 or 2....the best teams win. The Mavs shouldn't feel pressure of getting "stars"....they should be building a team.

Super B · 01-28-2021, 11:09 AM

“... is KP good enough to be the second best player on a championship team?”

Yes and No.

KP in the bubble putting up 30.5 PPG, 9.5 RPG and 1.5 BPG. Hell yes. The problem with KP is that he is oft injured. Every time he gets a rhythm and starts putting up really good production, he is sidelined by something. Little nagging injuries are almost as bad, if they last several weeks and mean he is only playing ⅔ of the games in those stretches and is limited in minutes. So ultimately the answer is an easy no.

I like KP, but the Mavs would be best off trying to get the very best package possible for KP and wish him well. If it weren’t for his huge contract he could stay, but that kind of salary demands consistent high level production. The only time he is actually earning his salary is when he is putting up bubble level production. I don’t see that ever happening on a long term consistent basis, do you?

Do the Mavs need a third star at all?

Most likely.

IMO there are two glaring things the Mavs need.

1. A true scorer.

Cue the Bradley Beal comments. This team has been struggling on offense. They need a second pure scorer, not just a shooter. Someone who can be the go to guy for points when Luka is off the floor. Someone who can draw defenders while Luka has the ball. Heck, Luka could play off the guy and wait for his opportunity. It doesn’t have to be Bradley Beal, though I admit he is very intriguing. Someone who has shown signs but hasn’t quite grabbed the attention just yet. Anyone coming to Dallas would be better playing alongside Luka.

2. A tough inside presence.

Watching the game last night vs. Utah. Golbert is everywhere. Clogging the paint, blocking shots, getting rebounds. The Mavs need a big time rebounder and shot blocker. Someone who make people think twice about when driving the lane. If they can get a good value trade for a big man, I’m all for it. In this case, he doesn’t need to be a “star”. I am good with Drummond if he can be had.

The Mavs could be smart. Although Donnie Nelson is quite flawed in this area. They could get the right guy who is not considered a star now, but has the potential, he could blossom into a star in part because of Luka.

Now is not the time to be hesitant. The Mavs are going nowhere fast.

Dallas41 · 01-28-2021, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super B

“... is KP good enough to be the second best player on a championship team?”

Yes and No.

KP in the bubble putting up 30.5 PPG, 9.5 RPG and 1.5 BPG. Hell yes. The problem with KP is that he is oft injured. Every time he gets a rhythm and starts putting up really good production, he is sidelined by something. Little nagging injuries are almost as bad, if they last several weeks and mean he is only playing ⅔ of the games in those stretches and is limited in minutes. So ultimately the answer is an easy no.

I like KP, but the Mavs would be best off trying to get the very best package possible for KP and wish him well. If it weren’t for his huge contract he could stay, but that kind of salary demands consistent high level production. The only time he is actually earning his salary is when he is putting up bubble level production. I don’t see that ever happening on a long term consistent basis, do you?

Do the Mavs need a third star at all?

Most likely.

IMO there are two glaring things the Mavs need.

1. A true scorer.

Cue the Bradley Beal comments. This team has been struggling on offense. They need a second pure scorer, not just a shooter. Someone who can be the go to guy for points when Luka is off the floor. Someone who can draw defenders while Luka has the ball. Heck, Luka could play off the guy and wait for his opportunity. It doesn’t have to be Bradley Beal, though I admit he is very intriguing. Someone who has shown signs but hasn’t quite grabbed the attention just yet. Anyone coming to Dallas would be better playing alongside Luka.

2. A tough inside presence.

Watching the game last night vs. Utah. Golbert is everywhere. Clogging the paint, blocking shots, getting rebounds. The Mavs need a big time rebounder and shot blocker. Someone who make people think twice about when driving the lane. If they can get a good value trade for a big man, I’m all for it. In this case, he doesn’t need to be a “star”. I am good with Drummond if he can be had.

The Mavs could be smart. Although Donnie Nelson is quite flawed in this area. They could get the right guy who is not considered a star now, but has the potential, he could blossom into a star in part because of Luka.

Now is not the time to be hesitant. The Mavs are going nowhere fast.

This is a great breakdown of the type of players they need to target.

I've been on that Drummond train for 3 years now. He's on a expiring contract which means you can give him a test drive like you did Tyson Chandler and if he prices himself out of your range let him walk later.

The problem is I don't think the Mavs are truly interested in a big like Drummond because he doesn't space the floor. They want to keep the paint open for KP so guys like Drummond or Steven Adams despite their rebounding success probably doesn't fit here next to KP.

The other guy I've been high on is not Beal but rather Zach Lavine.

He's not the super star that Beal is but I think he does so many different things beyond scoring. He has the length you want in SG and I believe he can play better defense than people give him credit .

My dark horse pickup would be Lavine's teammate in Chicago Lauri Markkenen

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-28-2021, 12:08 PM

Drummond and KP won't work together. Honestly, if anyone thinks that, then you haven't watched the Mavs since KP arrived. There is a reason he excels at the 5 and not the 4. Even against Gobert they didn't start a center next to him.

Now, if you want to move on from KP, then Drummond makes sense. In a la la land world, you move KP for Beal, then make a trade for Drummond.

Dallas41 · 01-28-2021, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Drummond and KP won't work together. Honestly, if anyone thinks that, then you haven't watched the Mavs since KP arrived. There is a reason he excels at the 5 and not the 4. Even against Gobert they didn't start a center next to him.

Now, if you want to move on from KP, then Drummond makes sense. In a la la land world, you move KP for Beal, then make a trade for Drummond.

Never thought of that trade option probably because I'd hate to see KP get traded.

But in that scenario your talking about a lineup of Drummond, Kleber, DFS, Beal and Luka.

I would imagine the Wizzards are going to want KP, THJ, Richardson and a #1 pick does that sound about right?

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-28-2021, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Never thought of that trade option probably because I'd hate to see KP get traded.

But in that scenario your talking about a lineup of Drummond, Kleber, DFS, Beal and Luka.

I would imagine the Wizzards are going to want KP, THJ, Richardson and a #1 pick does that sound about right?

OK, but what do you trade to get Drummond?

Dallas41 · 01-28-2021, 12:36 PM

Just to show how good Drummond has been look at his numbers and he's still relatively young.

The big fella is steamrolling toward his fifth rebounding title in six seasons (14.6 in just 30.4 minutes a night) and using his size and quick hands to disrupt opponents' activity at a staggering rate. If his rates hold, this will be his fourth straight season with a 4.0 block percentage and 2.0 steal percentage. Anthony Davis and Nerlens Noel are the only other players to clear those marks more than twice in that stretch.

Drummond, who's also averaging a career-best 18.7 points, is a punisher around the basket and a better passer than you think (2.7 assists). He's also likely to be deemed expendable by the Cavaliers after they sneaked into the Harden trade to steal Jarrett Allen.

Dallas41 · 01-28-2021, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

OK, but what do you trade to get Drummond?

Not sure what the Mavs would do but rumors suggest that James Johnson, Powell and Green might be enough.

Read a report where Portland could be his best destination though and they have suggested Nurkic, Hood and Nassir Little.

Super B · 01-28-2021, 12:57 PM

I know Drummond and KP don’t fit together. I want to get rid of KP. Use him to get Beal or Levine or McCullum or whoever. Then trade THJ for Drummond.

You can’t trade both KP and THJ, because the money doesn’t work. You would need to get equivalent salary back, which probably means taking on trash. But if you do separate trades, it might not be so bad.

Anyway, the incompetent Donnie “once every 20 years I do something brilliant” Nelson won’t trade KP. Half Nelson is only good at scouting international players. He is not good at trades, not good at drafts, not good at building. These players don’t mesh well with each other right now.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-28-2021, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

This is a pretty good thread and I'd like to see how other's feel

But 1st on your comparison's

06 Heat. Shaq. Duh.

Shaq was actually on his last legs that year and by the time they reached the Finals you could make an argument that Alonzo Mourning was more effective vs Mavs that series.

That may have been true in the finals, but Shaq was still all-NBA first team that year. He was still better than KP, even old and fat.

spreedom · 01-28-2021, 01:42 PM

I'm 100% out on KP. I don't know if we can trade him anywhere that immediately makes us better (which obviously should be the goal), but I don't trust him to make plays when the game's on the line. And that doesn't even include his long injury history.

EricaLubarsky · 01-28-2021, 02:10 PM

I don't want to overstep my mod privileges but I think this thread should be called, "do the Mavs need a second star"

DevinHarriswillstart · 01-28-2021, 02:22 PM

I agree about trusting KP. He has as much talent as any player in the league, but do you trust him to take the last, big shot in a game? He just seems so unfocused on his tasks that it's mind blowing. Oh, and he suddenly can't shoot threes. If he isn't hitting shots, then his value for this team tanks.

SMC0007 · 01-28-2021, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spreedom

I'm 100% out on KP. I don't know if we can trade him anywhere that immediately makes us better (which obviously should be the goal), but I don't trust him to make plays when the game's on the line. And that doesn't even include his long injury history.

It's understandable. When we got him back last season, he picked his game up beyond where he has ever been. Then another pesky injury. Now he has to find his way back again.

We took a huge gamble in maxing him and I'd hate to trade him and get 70% of his value and idk if we could even get that much. I think it's a safe bet that he is going to be here unless someone calls us with an offer we can't refuse, and why the hell would anyone do that.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-28-2021, 04:34 PM

Yeah I don't know that he's even tradeable at this point. For the record, I'm not necessarily "out" on KP. I'm only "out" on him as anything more than the third option. Maybe even 4th. He's the league's new Kevin Love as far as I'm concerned. Very talented, but also injury prone, and beyond that, something just seems to be missing mentally and I'm not sure what it is. Whether it's toughness or confidence or focus or whatever... I don't know, but I've seen enough to know that this is probably just who he is.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-28-2021, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I agree about trusting KP. He has as much talent as any player in the league, but do you trust him to take the last, big shot in a game? He just seems so unfocused on his tasks that it's mind blowing. Oh, and he suddenly can't shoot threes. If he isn't hitting shots, then his value for this team tanks.

I mentioned this in a recent GDT- a huge problem with KP is that he is an EXTREMELY streaky shooter. Maybe the streakiest in the league. When he's hitting threes, he looks like a superstar. But then the next night he'll turn around and go 1-8, and when that's the case, he's a liability, because he doesn't have some other amazing facet of his game to fall back on when the shot isn't falling.

Dallas41 · 01-29-2021, 10:35 AM

Kyle Lowry anyone?

https://thesmokingcuban.com/2021/01/...-kyle-lowry/4/

They would be trading their top two draft picks from 2020, a 2025 first-rounder, the expiring contract of James Johnson, and two years of Dwight Powell to get Lowry. The move makes sense for Dallas if they believe Lowry thrusts them into title contention.

The 34-year-old point guard checks all the boxes. He is a career 36.6 percent 3-point shooter that averages 6.2 assists per game but is comfortable playing off the ball. Lowry is a stout defender and proven winner too. No team would want to face the Mavericks with Kyle Lowry. Their offense would give out nightmares, and Lowry should improve their defense into an above-average unit.

SMC0007 · 01-29-2021, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Kyle Lowry anyone?

https://thesmokingcuban.com/2021/01/...-kyle-lowry/4/

They would be trading their top two draft picks from 2020, a 2025 first-rounder, the expiring contract of James Johnson, and two years of Dwight Powell to get Lowry. The move makes sense for Dallas if they believe Lowry thrusts them into title contention.

The 34-year-old point guard checks all the boxes. He is a career 36.6 percent 3-point shooter that averages 6.2 assists per game but is comfortable playing off the ball. Lowry is a stout defender and proven winner too. No team would want to face the Mavericks with Kyle Lowry. Their offense would give out nightmares, and Lowry should improve their defense into an above-average unit.

Love Kyle Lowry. Another guy they mentioned was Derrick Rose who I also like.

EricaLubarsky · 01-29-2021, 11:30 AM

Neither one is going to fix the problems we have with our bigs that are absolutely wrecking us. We need to be able to rebound and we need bigs to anchor our team defense.

Neither Lowry nor Burke are bad players, but we have about 5 cents in our pocket and about $20 worth of bills to pay. I'm not sure I'd give up even a second-rounder for either.

Thespiralgoeson · 01-29-2021, 12:39 PM

Regarding Lowry- he's turning 35 in March and he's UFA in the summer, so I'm not giving up anything of value for him. If the Mavs were on the cusp of winning a title, and he was the one missing piece, then sure. But the Mavs are nowhere near a title contender, and while he would improve the team, it would not be enough to justify giving up what little trade assets we have IMO.