GDT: game 18 (17?) - Nuggies (9-7) at Mavs (8-8) 7:30pm FSSW/LP

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The guy is 25 years old and five years into his NBA career. By then, you pretty much are what you are. I think anyone waiting for him to become a superstar is going to be very disappointed. He's a good, not great player.

And that's perfectly fine he's not a Super star because you have Luka. The Spurs had Parker and Manu. I don't think either of those guys were Super Stars but they complimented the super star Duncan very well.

The problem with the Mavs is they don't have another guy on KP's talent level.

You know Luka is good enough that if you give him 2 KP's that might just be
enough.

LeBron carried Cavs teams to the Finals without always having that 2nd stud.

I think Luka is a generational talent like LeBron.

So the question should be what can they get for THJ to get them closer to elite level?

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The guy is 25 years old and five years into his NBA career. By then, you pretty much are what you are. I think anyone waiting for him to become a superstar is going to be very disappointed. He's a good, not great player.

It's a little different with KP, since he pretty much sat out like two full seasons and then some, and he had stretches of superstar play, and even superstar games in the playoffs. He showed us that he can play at that level, granted, he hasn't shown that he can play at that level consistently, but at least we know it's in him. Not necessarily a top 5 player level, but a top 15, top 10 level, when he is at his absolute best. I still have faith in him, but he has to be the primary big guy in the lineup.

[FreshJive]

Just a reminder that the Mavs have Luka Doncic and Porzingis on the same team. Remember the enthusiasm for Dennis Smith Jr?

[dirt_dobber]

Brad Townsend@townbrad
Luka Doncic and James Johnson indicated that the Mavericks met after the game and several people, including Rick Carlisle, spoke, but they declined to give specifics about what was said.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I'm confused here.

Not sure if that is good thing or bad thing.

He played a terrific game on Jokic IMO. In fact on back to back possessions in that 3rd qtr they forced the shot clock violations I thought him and Luka were fantastic on both possessions.

Maybe I'm missing something but dude was a +17 the highest on the team tonight.

I thought taking him off the floor late in the game hurt the team more than it helped.

I thought wcs was good tonight.

[SMC0007]

I'm seeing some decent individual defense more often this season. The problem that I see is we aren't tied together consistently enough. The scheme seems to be ok but no defensive system works when guys aren't focused on the details and finishing plays.

I watched KP end up out of position a few times, especially after switching. It looks to be laziness but it could also be that he thinks he can get to these shots to block or contest because of his length. Since he has come back I have been waiting for him to buckle down and be a part of the extra effort we have been giving and he is just not getting it done.

Luka on the other hand has been much better this season and although he gets caught in screens sometimes, his recovery effort is way better than KPs.

Poor THJ is the worst defender that we have to rely on to contribute. He loses his man, lets small guys get rebounds over him and has TERRIBLE feel of when he can leave his man to help or double in the paint. He dips down too often and when he does nothing ever gets accomplished...aside from a wide open 3.

They need to find a way to tie it all together. We can't keep having 20 seconds of solid defense and then shit the bed for an easy layup or an open 3.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Poor THJ is the worst defender that we have to rely on to contribute. He loses his man, lets small guys get rebounds over him and has TERRIBLE feel of when he can leave his man to help or double in the paint. He dips down too often and when he does nothing ever gets accomplished...aside from a wide open 3.

They need to find a way to tie it all together. We can't keep having 20 seconds of solid defense and then shit the bed for an easy layup or an open 3.

I'm glad someone is seeing this with him.

The thing that irks me though is in that 3rd qtr you could see him pick up the intensity on that end of the floor vs Murray.

Now I'm not saying he was able to play lock down defense but just the extra effort alone really helped to slow things down.

That is IMO the way THJ should play right out of the gates.

Instead he seems to coast on defense for long stretches of games and launch that 3 point shot early and often even if there are driving lanes to attack.

In the 2nd half you could see him make of an effort to get to the rim and even run the floor in transition. Those easier buckets seemed to spark his 3-PT shot in the 3rd qtr before he cooled off again in the 4th.

No one expects THJ to shoot the ball great every nigh but when your shot isn't falling you got to at least bring energy on the defensive end so that your not being a liability on both ends of the floor for 3 out of 4 qtr's.

But hey maybe that's why he's better suited to being a 6th man where his shot hunting and lack of defense won't really hurt the team as often.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

It's a little different with KP, since he pretty much sat out like two full seasons and then some, and he had stretches of superstar play, and even superstar games in the playoffs. He showed us that he can play at that level, granted, he hasn't shown that he can play at that level consistently, but at least we know it's in him. Not necessarily a top 5 player level, but a top 15, top 10 level, when he is at his absolute best. I still have faith in him, but he has to be the primary big guy in the lineup.

It's not that different. The sample size with him is more than big enough. The sitting out two full seasons and then some part... that's not a fluke. That's part of the package with him. He's injury prone.

He's not a top 10 or top 15 player. Not close. I'm not convinced he's top 40.

You can't look at two months out of his entire career and judge that more heavily than the other four years.

He obviously has to be "the primary big guy." But my point is, he is what he is. Part of the problem is he's an EXTREMELY streaky 3 point shooter, and he always has been. When he's hot, he's a star. When, say, he goes 1-8, as he did against the Nuggets, he's a liability.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

And that's perfectly fine he's not a Super star because you have Luka. The Spurs had Parker and Manu. I don't think either of those guys were Super Stars but they complimented the super star Duncan very well.

The problem with the Mavs is they don't have another guy on KP's talent level.

You know Luka is good enough that if you give him 2 KP's that might just be
enough.

LeBron carried Cavs teams to the Finals without always having that 2nd stud.

I think Luka is a generational talent like LeBron.

So the question should be what can they get for THJ to get them closer to elite level?

Both Parker and Ginobili were better than KP. Especially Parker.

But I'm glad we agree that for the Mavs to contend they need another player at least as good as KP.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Both Parker and Ginobili were better than KP. Especially Parker.

But I'm glad we agree that for the Mavs to contend they need another player at least as good as KP.

I've made this point for two years now ad nauseam, but I think it's been tweaked just a bit with the defensive improvement once the team is finally healthy.

What they primarily need is a guy who can handle the ball to take the load off of Luka, and he has to be a really good player to boot. I think Brunson is inching his way, but there is something still off about his game that I can't quite pinpoint. It's like he does most things well and doesn't make mistakes, but I'm rarely seeing a huge impact. He did hit that big shot against the Spurs which means the path is there, but the Mavs need that guy NOW.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I'm glad someone is seeing this with him.

The thing that irks me though is in that 3rd qtr you could see him pick up the intensity on that end of the floor vs Murray.

Now I'm not saying he was able to play lock down defense but just the extra effort alone really helped to slow things down.

That is IMO the way THJ should play right out of the gates.

Instead he seems to coast on defense for long stretches of games and launch that 3 point shot early and often even if there are driving lanes to attack.

In the 2nd half you could see him make of an effort to get to the rim and even run the floor in transition. Those easier buckets seemed to spark his 3-PT shot in the 3rd qtr before he cooled off again in the 4th.

No one expects THJ to shoot the ball great every nigh but when your shot isn't falling you got to at least bring energy on the defensive end so that your not being a liability on both ends of the floor for 3 out of 4 qtr's.

But hey maybe that's why he's better suited to being a 6th man where his shot hunting and lack of defense won't really hurt the team as often.

Assuming you are referring to THJ. Yes, I think he is better suited for 6th man role and mostly because he is fuel for other teams random guy having a career night. I'm surprised that he hasn't been relegated to 6th man earlier because they watch endless film on their defensive breakdowns. How long can you just not get it? For me, it's his defense and not being able to improve his handles.

I'm more concerned with KP though. He is getting mixed up in switches and looks like he relies on his length to make up distance. One example is last night when Millsap got a pass in the paint from a switch, KP didn't use his legs and movement to recover in time. By the time he recovered to protect the paint, Millsap passed out to a guy open on the corner for a made 3. It looked like the defender was just sleeping on the 3pt line, but watching it back a few times, he came over to help because KP was slow moving into position.

As a team we get killed in the PnR and it's amazing that it looks like we just haven't gotten much better. Our guys collapse to help in the paint and don't really have a good feel for when to do it. The timing isn't there and it's a tricky thing to get right and you can't get it right all the time. I'm looking forward to a trade but I doubt that happens, so I guess I will settle for getting J Rich and the guys back.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Assuming you are referring to THJ. Yes, I think he is better suited for 6th man role and mostly because he is fuel for other teams random guy having a career night. I'm surprised that he hasn't been relegated to 6th man earlier because they watch endless film on their defensive breakdowns. How long can you just not get it? For me, it's his defense and not being able to improve his handles.

I'm more concerned with KP though. He is getting mixed up in switches and looks like he relies on his length to make up distance. One example is last night when Millsap got a pass in the paint from a switch, KP didn't use his legs and movement to recover in time. By the time he recovered to protect the paint, Millsap passed out to a guy open on the corner for a made 3. It looked like the defender was just sleeping on the 3pt line, but watching it back a few times, he came over to help because KP was slow moving into position.

As a team we get killed in the PnR and it's amazing that it looks like we just haven't gotten much better. Our guys collapse to help in the paint and don't really have a good feel for when to do it. The timing isn't there and it's a tricky thing to get right and you can't get it right all the time. I'm looking forward to a trade but I doubt that happens, so I guess I will settle for getting J Rich and the guys back.

They had team meeting last night

Here's some quotes from RC that makes you thinks some players just aren't dialed in or buying in to something.

As far as ball movement I think I have idea of who that is most of the time.

As far as distractions there's no fans at the game so I'd like to know what there is that is distracting certain players.


Mavericks coach Rick Carlisle on the disappointing first half:

“I thought the first half was very poor. The ball didn’t move. We were distracted. We didn’t help each other defensively. Very disappointing.”


Carlisle on ‘unselfish play’:

“Team play. It’s got to be unselfish team play,” Carlisle said. “It doesn’t matter who we put out there.

"If the ball’s moving and we’re executing and helping each other get shots, that’s going to breed a togetherness on the defensive end and we’ll give ourselves a chance.''

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

They had team meeting last night

Here's some quotes from RC that makes you thinks some players just aren't dialed in or buying in to something.

As far as ball movement I think I have idea of who that is most of the time.

As far as distractions there's no fans at the game so I'd like to know what there is that is distracting certain players.


Mavericks coach Rick Carlisle on the disappointing first half:

“I thought the first half was very poor. The ball didn’t move. We were distracted. We didn’t help each other defensively. Very disappointing.”


Carlisle on ‘unselfish play’:

“Team play. It’s got to be unselfish team play,” Carlisle said. “It doesn’t matter who we put out there.

"If the ball’s moving and we’re executing and helping each other get shots, that’s going to breed a togetherness on the defensive end and we’ll give ourselves a chance.''

Kp and THJ are the only ones who are shoot first and take bad shots. Luka takes some bad shots but he literally does everything else...including defensive effort now. KP annoys the hell out of me with his super long range 3s that clang off the front rim. THJ has never seen a shot that he doesn't like.

Imo, we are long overdue for one of these meetings. It's no coincidence that Johnson was involved in it either. If true, I like that he is contributing or showing Luka how to lead.

[FreshJive]

Dfs, Jrich, and Dwight are all listed as questionable for tomorrow. Also dfs said something about being winded and it being tough playing in Utah, but he will still play hard. Looks like the wait is finally over.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

I've made this point for two years now ad nauseam, but I think it's been tweaked just a bit with the defensive improvement once the team is finally healthy.

What they primarily need is a guy who can handle the ball to take the load off of Luka, and he has to be a really good player to boot. I think Brunson is inching his way, but there is something still off about his game that I can't quite pinpoint. It's like he does most things well and doesn't make mistakes, but I'm rarely seeing a huge impact. He did hit that big shot against the Spurs which means the path is there, but the Mavs need that guy NOW.

The Mavs' biggest weakness by far is and has been the lack of a secondary playmaker. No argument here.

We need a guy who can not only play next to Luka, but is good enough to carry the offense when Luka is off the floor. Brunson is definitely not that player. He's a "rotation guy."

[FreshJive]

I think it’s too early to say what Brunson is going to be as a player. He’s still improving. He’s shooting 52% and shooting 43% from 3, and has a 31 point game this season.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The Mavs' biggest weakness by far is and has been the lack of a secondary playmaker. No argument here.

We need a guy who can not only play next to Luka, but is good enough to carry the offense when Luka is off the floor. Brunson is definitely not that player. He's a "rotation guy."

I read this report today.

Ball does fit the secondary ball handler need and Reddick as a shooter off the bench might not be too bad.

The Pelicans are open to trade both Lonzo Ball and J.J. Redick and have taken calls from interested teams.

[FreshJive]

The Mavs still haven’t played a game with KP and the other starters. I want to see KP play 20 or so games with Luka, Jrich, dfs, Maxi, Brunson, and thj all available before I start to draw any conclusions.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

The Mavs still haven’t played a game with KP and the other starters. I want to see KP play 20 or so games with Luka, Jrich, dfs, Maxi, Brunson, and thj all available before I start to draw any conclusions.

20 games is probably pushing the trade deadline. I think you should know enough with 10-12 games though.

[nejc]

Hello to everyone! I'm new to this forum...

What I think Mavs miss the most is some good leading by the coach... Luka is playing basically same minutes every game, as if it was some kind of recipe for success... Well it's not, it can't be... And to me it seems like the creation of the game is solely in Luka's hands, as if everyone is just waiting for the ball or for him to score some points. When he's on the bench, there's no game, just solo actions, without some real perspective.
I'm not saying the coach is a bad coach, but i feel they lack the system.
I watched every Mavs game in last two years, and most of the games in last 3. It's the same all the time. There's Luka, and if he's feeling it they play good, if he's not, than meh. We've seen a few games this year, when it seemed like Luka was the only one actually playing, and the rest were like some bangladesh league players.
He can't do everything by himself, and the sooner the coach and his staff realize it, the better it will be for them...

In general, KP should concentrate more on playing closer to the rim, THJ should not force unreasonabla three's when it's not his night. Brunson is a surprise for me, he's doing really well... Now I'm hopefully waiting for the return of Maxi, Powell and the rest... But even when they were all playing (-KP), I have missed the system, the tactics... I can only imagine what this team could do if their coach was greg Popovich.

All the best to you all!

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by nejc

Hello to everyone! I'm new to this forum...

What I think Mavs miss the most is some good leading by the coach... Luka is playing basically same minutes every game, as if it was some kind of recipe for success... Well it's not, it can't be... And to me it seems like the creation of the game is solely in Luka's hands, as if everyone is just waiting for the ball or for him to score some points. When he's on the bench, there's no game, just solo actions, without some real perspective.

I felt last night once they got the momentum RC should have went back to Luka quicker instead of riding the same exact rotation pattern.

In fact they even mentioned it doing the post game afterwards.

Sometimes and not saying all the time they should go outside of their normal pattern the minute things start to go south and get him back in the game. I'm not saying he needs to be young LeBron and play iron man minutes but sometimes when the game is in the balance and you know you can't sustain a lead in the 4th qtr too long without him give him a quick breather and back out there again.

That 5-6 stretch to start the 4th qtr with no PG on the floor was brutal

I don't consider Burke or Brunson natural PG's they are better players off the ball IMO.

To make matters worse it seems like KP won't get any post touches unless he's on the floor with Luka because none of other guards really look to get him involved or run any plays for him.

It's just jack up shot's and everyone looks to get their own.

That is one thing I fault RC for because the offense should be more structured when Luka sits and RC should demand more set plays for KP instead of letting THJ, Brunson or Burke take turns shooting.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by nejc

Hello to everyone! I'm new to this forum...

What I think Mavs miss the most is some good leading by the coach... Luka is playing basically same minutes every game, as if it was some kind of recipe for success... Well it's not, it can't be... And to me it seems like the creation of the game is solely in Luka's hands, as if everyone is just waiting for the ball or for him to score some points. When he's on the bench, there's no game, just solo actions, without some real perspective.
I'm not saying the coach is a bad coach, but i feel they lack the system.
I watched every Mavs game in last two years, and most of the games in last 3. It's the same all the time. There's Luka, and if he's feeling it they play good, if he's not, than meh. We've seen a few games this year, when it seemed like Luka was the only one actually playing, and the rest were like some bangladesh league players.
He can't do everything by himself, and the sooner the coach and his staff realize it, the better it will be for them...

In general, KP should concentrate more on playing closer to the rim, THJ should not force unreasonabla three's when it's not his night. Brunson is a surprise for me, he's doing really well... Now I'm hopefully waiting for the return of Maxi, Powell and the rest... But even when they were all playing (-KP), I have missed the system, the tactics... I can only imagine what this team could do if their coach was greg Popovich.

All the best to you all!

Welcome aboard!

[nejc]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I felt last night once they got the momentum RC should have went back to Luka quicker instead of riding the same exact rotation pattern.

In fact they even mentioned it doing the post game afterwards.

Sometimes and not saying all the time they should go outside of their normal pattern the minute things start to go south and get him back in the game. I'm not saying he needs to be young LeBron and play iron man minutes but sometimes when the game is in the balance and you know you can't sustain a lead in the 4th qtr too long without him give him a quick breather and back out there again.

That 5-6 stretch to start the 4th qtr with no PG on the floor was brutal

I don't consider Burke or Brunson natural PG's they are better players off the ball IMO.

To make matters worse it seems like KP won't get any post touches unless he's on the floor with Luka because none of other guards really look to get him involved or run any plays for him.

It's just jack up shot's and everyone looks to get their own.

That is one thing I fault RC for because the offense should be more structured when Luka sits and RC should demand more set plays for KP instead of letting THJ, Brunson or Burke take turns shooting.

exactly! i'm watching the games mostly on slovenian tv, and of course, the comentators might be a little bit too much in favor of Luka, he's like a god here. But still, when he's on the bench, the team is playing like chicken without heads. Every men for himself... No team work then...

On the other hand, i'm watching almost every game of miami heat (because of dragić) as well. they don't have the talent, they have maybe three really good players, but they play lika as a real team. If mavs started to play like that, all for one and one for all, with its talent, great things could be possible!

[nejc]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Welcome aboard!

Thank you so much!

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by nejc

exactly! i'm watching the games mostly on slovenian tv, and of course, the comentators might be a little bit too much in favor of Luka, he's like a god here. But still, when he's on the bench, the team is playing like chicken without heads. Every men for himself... No team work then...

On the other hand, i'm watching almost every game of miami heat (because of dragić) as well. they don't have the talent, they have maybe three really good players, but they play lika as a real team. If mavs started to play like that, all for one and one for all, with its talent, great things could be possible!

Luka is like a God everywhere ��

Welcome to the board!

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

20 games is probably pushing the trade deadline. I think you should know enough with 10-12 games though.

If they have a good offer at the trade deadline, then obviously take it, but I don't see them having a good offer involving THJ or Porzingis at the moment.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by nejc

Hello to everyone! I'm new to this forum...

What I think Mavs miss the most is some good leading by the coach... Luka is playing basically same minutes every game, as if it was some kind of recipe for success... Well it's not, it can't be... And to me it seems like the creation of the game is solely in Luka's hands, as if everyone is just waiting for the ball or for him to score some points. When he's on the bench, there's no game, just solo actions, without some real perspective.
I'm not saying the coach is a bad coach, but i feel they lack the system.
I watched every Mavs game in last two years, and most of the games in last 3. It's the same all the time. There's Luka, and if he's feeling it they play good, if he's not, than meh. We've seen a few games this year, when it seemed like Luka was the only one actually playing, and the rest were like some bangladesh league players.
He can't do everything by himself, and the sooner the coach and his staff realize it, the better it will be for them...

In general, KP should concentrate more on playing closer to the rim, THJ should not force unreasonabla three's when it's not his night. Brunson is a surprise for me, he's doing really well... Now I'm hopefully waiting for the return of Maxi, Powell and the rest... But even when they were all playing (-KP), I have missed the system, the tactics... I can only imagine what this team could do if their coach was greg Popovich.

All the best to you all!

anti bangladesh rhetoric

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

If they have a good offer at the trade deadline, then obviously take it, but I don't see them having a good offer involving THJ or Porzingis at the moment.

Imo, everyone aside from Luka is available if it means we get a better fitting rotation, some security in health and another 2 way playmaker. I doubt we find that though.