GDT: game 19 (18?) - Mavs (8-9) at Jazz (12-4) 8:00 pm FSSW/LP

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

All arrows point at the last two FAs more than anything. Add in Covid, and you can get in trouble really quick.

But hey, thank god we have cap space next summer to not do anything meaningful with it....again.

Were there better moves on the table that the Mavs passed on in order to preserve cap space? Because I don't know of any.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I wonder what was aired out doing that team meeting.

It looks to me like the mavs aren't really running a system.

They are just taking turns competing for shots. For example they will run a successful Luka or KP post up play or high pick n roll

Then after that you won't see another designed play call for most of the game.

Barrera used to run pick n roll or pick n pop all the t IPO me but Brunson and Burke seems to go into ISO mode often

The offense should run through Kp when he's out there on the floor with the 2nd unit

You're right about the 2 basic plays they run, aside from a called play after a timeout.

I don't like KP in PnR very often on offense because he sets weak picks and half the time is in a hurry to slip it so he can get a shot. Plus there is really no chance for an offensive board.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Were there better moves on the table that the Mavs passed on in order to preserve cap space? Because I don't know of any.

I think there is plenty of proof that we aren't successful in FA. How much better would we be with Wood, or even Cousins?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I think there is plenty of proof that we aren't successful in FA. How much better would we be with Wood, or even Cousins?

And there was NO excuse for one of the biggest FAs in history two seasons ago when they ended up with Curry and Delon Wright.

And the fact that they have so many contracts structured to have space once against this coming summer speaks for itself.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Were there better moves on the table that the Mavs passed on in order to preserve cap space? Because I don't know of any.

I was banging the table for Christian Wood. I think he would be the other offensive option we need, he can board and he can space the floor or roll. Would’ve diversified our offense. No idea why they didn’t make this happen. Maybe there were character red flags. Maybe a deal went down when we were trying to trade for Halliburton. I really like Green and I would trade him all day any day for Wood.

And he’s on a value contract at 13m a year or something.

[turin]

RC isn't known as a defensive coach, and it certainly shows. The flow offense is his pet, and it sure worked 10 years ago with Kidd at the point calling the plays. Was that the offense or an all-time great HoF point guard running what he wanted from experience based upon the defense?

On the outside looking in, it looks more like perimeter passing with small ball lineups launching 3's from the way RC has been playing games for years. Personally, I'm sick and tired of it and have been for years. Hell, I'd take a Richie Adubato over Carlisle right now. He knew how to use bigs and coach defense. I just think RC is a poor fit for how I wish the roster was constructed and utilized. I wouldn't be sad at all if he moved on and continued being an "all-time great" coach with somebody else.

It's not going to happen, so I think you can stick a fork in these Mavs for the season. We saw glimpses of potential with big men and defense when we had a mostly full roster, but face it, RC isn't predisposed to playing like that unless he's forced to personnel-wise, so when it comes crunch time, he'll go back to what he's comfortable with.

It's sad to waste another year, but the MBT also wasted years of peak Dirk, so it's nothing new, and as far as FA goes, if all things are equal financially, I can understand players picking other teams over the Mavs solely because of the coach. It's not just the city of Dallas. Dallas is a great city in a great state. Outside of a CA team, NY, or Miami, I have a hard time believing that Dallas can't measure up to all of the other NBA cities. I do know one constant aside from location in all of these many years of failed FA - RC.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Dallas41]

Interesting name that was mentioned here
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/new...vic-trade-work


Proposed Trade:

Mavs receive - Nikola Vucivic

Magic receive - Maxi Kleber, James Johnson & a heavily-protected 2025 first-round pick that would likely turn into two second round picks instead

The problem is, though, when KP isn’t hitting shots or rebounding, the Mavs have no other big who is capable of picking up that kind of slack. Sure, the eventual return of Maxi Kleber should help this Mavs front court out a lot, as well as Dorian Finney-Smith getting his NBA legs back under him post-Covid, but it likely won’t fix all the Mavs problems when they’re facing a superstar big man like Rudy Gobert.

Vucivic isn’t the brute rebounder that Gobert is, but he still averages an impressive double-double with 24 points and 11 rebounds per game which shooting 49% from the field and 44% from deep. He would give the Mavs more force on the boards without restricting their offensive flexibility the way a guy like Andre Drummond might (and this isn’t a knock on Drummond, but just an honest assessment).

[turin]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Interesting name that was mentioned here
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/new...vic-trade-work


Proposed Trade:

Mavs receive - Nikola Vucivic

Magic receive - Maxi Kleber, James Johnson & a heavily-protected 2025 first-round pick that would likely turn into two second round picks instead

The problem is, though, when KP isn’t hitting shots or rebounding, the Mavs have no other big who is capable of picking up that kind of slack. Sure, the eventual return of Maxi Kleber should help this Mavs front court out a lot, as well as Dorian Finney-Smith getting his NBA legs back under him post-Covid, but it likely won’t fix all the Mavs problems when they’re facing a superstar big man like Rudy Gobert.

Vucivic isn’t the brute rebounder that Gobert is, but he still averages an impressive double-double with 24 points and 11 rebounds per game which shooting 49% from the field and 44% from deep. He would give the Mavs more force on the boards without restricting their offensive flexibility the way a guy like Andre Drummond might (and this isn’t a knock on Drummond, but just an honest assessment).

I've always like Vuc's game. He's a solid foundation piece. I was all in on going after him a few years ago and doing what it took to sign him, but lots of people had issues with him, obviously the Mavs did also. I don't see the Mavs trading for him. That would basically be admitting that they screwed up and are basically revamping the roster.

I'm on board, but only if that comes with a new coach; otherwise, I'm done with watching the Mavs. I'll read the summary and box score after games moving forward.

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[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by turin

I've always like Vuc's game. He's a solid foundation piece. I was all in on going after him a few years ago and doing what it took to sign him, but lots of people had issues with him, obviously the Mavs did also. I don't see the Mavs trading for him. That would basically be admitting that they screwed up and are basically revamping the roster.

I'm on board, but only if that comes with a new coach; otherwise, I'm done with watching the Mavs. I'll read the summary and box score after games moving forward.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Yeah I think it's kind of a joke that the Mavs are so hell bent over an offensive system as opposed to a players actual talent.

There are several big's out there who can help this team on the boards but the fear of them stopping KP from playing Center is such a major issue with the Mavs.

I was watching Steven Adams and Zion the other day work together up front for New Orleans and neither guy shoot's the 3-ball and yet Adam's never disrupted the space inside for Zion to attack.

That game last night vs Utah I'm thinking after last year when Gobert kicked our a$$ there's no way the Mavs will go small again vs him. But sure enough they did and sure enough he put up monster numbers again.

I mentioned this one time before but I don't think Gobert would get big minutes in Dallas under RC because he just doesn't fit the profile for this offensive flow system.

I'm not sure why half these coaches in the NBA don't like big's who can get you easy buckets inside, rebound and prrotect the rim. They would rather live and die with that 3-ball even if the team is shooting 30% all game.

Really love what Doc Rivers has done in Philly forcing Embid to take his butt back into the post more often this year. So many teams are playing small that if you had a big who could score inside you could really take advantage of small lineups now days.

[Melonhead]

Eventually it has to fall on RC...things we can damn near guarantee

Mavs will come out flat at some point in the game
Defense is charmin soft
Rebounds are hard to come by


No matter the roster over the years, those things stay the same. I’m exhausted of the flow offense. It worked with the vets because he had Kidd, Barea, and Terry running the floor. You have to move on and make a system fit your roster, not find specific guys to fit the roster.

All that said, unless Luka goes to Cuban and says I want a new coach, I don’t think you can fire RC because it opens up so much instability and it’s a double edged sword because Luka could decide and leave anyway.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by mac222b

I was banging the table for Christian Wood. I think he would be the other offensive option we need, he can board and he can space the floor or roll. Would’ve diversified our offense. No idea why they didn’t make this happen. Maybe there were character red flags. Maybe a deal went down when we were trying to trade for Halliburton. I really like Green and I would trade him all day any day for Wood.

And he’s on a value contract at 13m a year or something.

Yep. I was on this train from last year and we probably didn't even make a call.

[Dallas41]

I like Wood but I have to admit I thought he was fools gold last year playing on a bad team in a contract year.

IN hindsight the Mavs have a scouting department and it's a shame that scouting department gave the thumbs up on Deleon Wright last offseason but not Woods.

He's as thin as KP but somehow he tends to hold his own inside.

That was a huge FA miss by the Mavs based on his contract and production.

If someone told me a month ago the Rockets, Cavs, Thunder, Grizzlies, Spurs, Warriors or Hawks would all have a equal or better record than the Mavs I would have said your nuts.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I like Wood but I have to admit I thought he was fools gold last year playing on a bad team in a contract year.

IN hindsight the Mavs have a scouting department and it's a shame that scouting department gave the thumbs up on Deleon Wright last offseason but not Woods.

He's as thin as KP but somehow he tends to hold his own inside.

That was a huge FA miss by the Mavs based on his contract and production.

If someone told me a month ago the Rockets, Cavs, Thunder, Grizzlies, Spurs, Warriors or Hawks would all have a equal or better record than the Mavs I would have said your nuts.

As far as the records go, I would have believed it. Evennbefore the season started I felt it would take time to gain our identity and mesh. We were always going to be without KP and with new players...Plus the covid situation. I never thought it would look THIS bad and feel hopeless.

Regarding our scouting, it's been underwhelming for how long now? The only way we have hope is in trades. I'm not even comfortable when we sign our own players.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

And there was NO excuse for one of the biggest FAs in history two seasons ago when they ended up with Curry and Delon Wright.

And the fact that they have so many contracts structured to have space once against this coming summer speaks for itself.

I don't understand what you're expecting though. It's not like they didn't try to get the big free agents. We know for a fact that they went after Kemba hard. But the Mavs were a 33 win team. They courted people, and but there were better options for pretty much everyone. You make it sound like they deliberately chose NOT to sign anyone for the sake of preserving cap space, and that is not what happened.

Why is there "NO" excuse? What are they supposed to do? Jedi mind trick people?

[EricaLubarsky]

I don't get the "no excuse" either.

We failed. Most teams fail. When a player signs with a team, one team wins and 29 teams lose. We don't have excuses, but the rhetoric is puzzling. Do we just have zero tolerance for things that happen? Do we just shut down as a franchise when we miss out on a FA that doesn't come here in the first place? Fire all our front office staff? I don't get it.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

You know what? I certainly don't "get" why I waste my time around here anymore. Not worth it. Posting is so terrible that it makes my eyes bleed.

I'm done, peace.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

You know what? I certainly don't "get" why I waste my time around here anymore. Not worth it. Posting is so terrible that it makes my eyes bleed.

I'm done, peace.

Seriously? Whatever man. It was a perfectly fair question. I think if there was a good answer to it, you would have provided it instead of flouncing.

[Heezzi]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

I like Wood but I have to admit I thought he was fools gold last year playing on a bad team in a contract year.

IN hindsight the Mavs have a scouting department and it's a shame that scouting department gave the thumbs up on Deleon Wright last offseason but not Woods.

He's as thin as KP but somehow he tends to hold his own inside.

That was a huge FA miss by the Mavs based on his contract and production.

If someone told me a month ago the Rockets, Cavs, Thunder, Grizzlies, Spurs, Warriors or Hawks would all have a equal or better record than the Mavs I would have said your nuts.

Delon got signed because he dropped a triple double why Brunson guarded him. The Mavs scouting department sucks.

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by Heezzi

Delon got signed because he dropped a triple double why Brunson guarded him. The Mavs scouting department sucks.

If that's the only reason they signed him then someone needs to get out of the scouting department.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by Dallas41

Interesting name that was mentioned here
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/new...vic-trade-work


Proposed Trade:

Mavs receive - Nikola Vucivic

Magic receive - Maxi Kleber, James Johnson & a heavily-protected 2025 first-round pick that would likely turn into two second round picks instead

The problem is, though, when KP isn’t hitting shots or rebounding, the Mavs have no other big who is capable of picking up that kind of slack. Sure, the eventual return of Maxi Kleber should help this Mavs front court out a lot, as well as Dorian Finney-Smith getting his NBA legs back under him post-Covid, but it likely won’t fix all the Mavs problems when they’re facing a superstar big man like Rudy Gobert.

Vucivic isn’t the brute rebounder that Gobert is, but he still averages an impressive double-double with 24 points and 11 rebounds per game which shooting 49% from the field and 44% from deep. He would give the Mavs more force on the boards without restricting their offensive flexibility the way a guy like Andre Drummond might (and this isn’t a knock on Drummond, but just an honest assessment).

I wanted the Mavs to make Vuc their priority signing that off season. It doesn't appear that they had any competition other than Orlando. I understood why they wanted Walker, but they should have been able to figure out that he preferred Boston.

[FreshJive]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Seriously? Whatever man. It was a perfectly fair question. I think if there was a good answer to it, you would have provided it instead of flouncing.

He seems like a nice enough dude, but he gets mad anytime you ask him to clarify his position.

[purplefrog]

Top 30 in Rebounding

1. Drummond
2. Capela
3. Gobert
4. Ayton
5. Sabonis
6. Jokic
7. Randle
8. Embiid
9. Giannis
10. Vucevic
11. Wood
12. Valanciunas
13. Kanter
14. Adams
15. Doncic
16. Adebayo
17. Jarrett Allen
18. Mason Plumlee
19. Anthony Davis
20. Thompson
21. Simmons
22. Mitchell Robinson
23. Bagley III
24. Siakam
25. Richuan Holmes
26. Carter Jr.
27. James
28. Portis
29. Josh Hart?
30. Dwight Howard

Many on the list are not likely to be traded. Some were FAs this past season. Some have been passionately rejected by Mavs fans because they don't fit with KP or Mavs system in general. If you don't go after someone on this list are you going to fix the horrendous rebounding disadvantage Mavs face in almost every game?

[Dallas41]

Originally Posted by purplefrog

Top 30 in Rebounding

1. Drummond
2. Capela
3. Gobert
4. Ayton
5. Sabonis
6. Jokic
7. Randle
8. Embiid
9. Giannis
10. Vucevic
11. Wood
12. Valanciunas
13. Kanter
14. Adams
15. Doncic
16. Adebayo
17. Jarrett Allen
18. Mason Plumlee
19. Anthony Davis
20. Thompson
21. Simmons
22. Mitchell Robinson
23. Bagley III
24. Siakam
25. Richuan Holmes
26. Carter Jr.
27. James
28. Portis
29. Josh Hart?
30. Dwight Howard

Many on the list are not likely to be traded. Some were FAs this past season. Some have been passionately rejected by Mavs fans because they don't fit with KP or Mavs system in general. If you don't go after someone on this list are you going to fix the horrendous rebounding disadvantage Mavs face in almost every game?

I think that it's sad that the top 3 guys would guys on that list do to their lack of 3 point shooting would all be classified as bad fits in Dallas because they hurt the spacing for KP.

It's funny how Atlanta has figured out how to use Collins and Capela together, Robinson and Randall seem like an odd fit in New York but it's working, then you Adams and Zion meshing well.

Sometimes as a coach you have to find away to fit your system around the talent. But the Mavs do at times past up more talented players because they aren't a good fit for the system.

I will even add that it's ok if you don't won't KP playing PF any longer but they never even bothered to look into a guy like Dwight Howard who's productive coming off the bench for you.

Whiteside is another guy who was dirt cheap that you knew could rebound and block shots but I'm guessing the Mavs have their own reasons for not pursuing him.

The two times they did get to Finals ironically both teams had traditional bigs who only jobs were to rebound and provide rim protection.

Dampier/Diop/Mbenga
CHandler/Haywood/Mahinimi

[turin]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Why is there "NO" excuse? What are they supposed to do? Jedi mind trick people?

I don't think there is "no excuse." Obviously, there are reasons, but one would expect a competent organization to better pinpoint the reason(s) after so many years of futility and implement changes to offset and alleviate those objections. Personally, I don't think it's so much the "city of Dallas" as people portray. If it is, then the Mavs are just screwed, but I've travelled quite extensively and lived in several large NBA cities, and Dallas, as a city, and Texas, as a state, just don't come up so short in the desireablilty department in my opinion to warrant the record of FA futility. Heck, it looks like half the freaking country wants to move to Texas as it is.

What other factors might be of serious consideration if we set aside location, since we can't really do much about that? Well, we've got organization which I'll just abbreviate as MBT + personnel and facilities, plus the all-important "show me the money." I think those are the major factors.

So how do the Mavs stack up? As far as offers and salary-wise, Cuban has a reputation for willingness to spend the money. Endorsement deals are not in the same league for non-superstars as in CA and NY, but that's somewhat offset by no state income tax, so I don't think money is a consistent sticking point for FA's. What about facilities? Again, by reputation, Cuban takes care of his players. Amenities, perks, travel, the Mavs appear to be top notch in these categories. Fan base is solid and happy to latch on and cheer for their heroes. That pretty much leaves us to personnel and MBT. Again, the Mavs have a very good reputation for solid medical staff as well as trainers and other personnel. They even went above and beyond and hired their very own politically correct SJW CEO. This leaves us with the main constant for the Mavs during all of the years of FA futility - at leat since 2008 - MBT.

The MBT has been a stable constant for the Mavs since 2008, and while the stability is a very good thing, one also has to consider the chance that there may be issues here for free agents. Nelson? Well, as GM I don't know that there would be near the "personality" impact as a Cuban or Carlisle. Yes, he should be held accountable for FA and trades, but on the outside looking in, it's hard to know exactly how much and who is accountable to what degree. How much input does Carlisle have? How often does Cuban overrule decisions? We already know the infamous Giannis gaff. Cuban? Well, if it's Cuban and his personality, then we are in the Cowboy conundrum, since that's not going to change any time soon. Barring FA issues with Cuban, that leaves RC. Might FA's have issues with his system? personality? I'm not sure, but if I were betting, I think the odds would be weighted more in favor of FA "issues" arising from RC. There really isn't a need to go over the specifics of system, playing smallish, adjustments, personality, et. al. It is what it is.

I just think that from an organizational standpoint, the biggest issue in my mind, and yes, admittedly, I'm not a big RC fan, is RC. This is not personal. He's a greatly respected coach with more skins than anybody not HoF. I just think he's a "fit" issue for the Mavs in today's NBA based upon the Mavs' lack of FA success as well as style of play, offensive system, and maybe most importantly - personality and coaching style. He's the single, largest, constant factor over the years when it comes to players and FA. Nobody spends as much time with players aside from other players than coaches. Like has been mentioned before, in the end it'll eventually fall on him, but the wait can be excrutiating for the fan base. Look how long Garrett was head of the Cowboys.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by turin

I just think that from an organizational standpoint, the biggest issue in my mind, and yes, admittedly, I'm not a big RC fan, is RC. This is not personal. He's a greatly respected coach with more skins than anybody not HoF. I just think he's a "fit" issue for the Mavs in today's NBA based upon the Mavs' lack of FA success as well as style of play and offensive system. He's the single, largest, constant factor over the years when it comes to players and FA. Nobody spends as much time with players aside from other players than coaches. Like has been mentioned before, in the end it'll eventually fall on him, but the wait can be excrutiating for the fan base. Look how long Garrett was head of the Cowboys.

I've never considered this, but honestly I think you might be onto something here. Carlisle greatly respected, but he's also known for having a prickly personality going all the way back to his days in Detroit, and he's downright infamous for not being a "players' coach."