Top 25 Greatest Players Ever

[chumdawg]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I have a hard time believing that David Robinson should get the nod over Hakeem when Hakeem completely destroyed Robinson in their head-to-head matchup during the WCFs in Robinson's MVP year.

The bigger issue may be Hakeem getting the nod over Duncan. Hakeem was certainly a threat in his day. I remember it well, in his early going. But he probably wasn't any bigger threat than Dwight Howard is today. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. Our '88 team beat those Rockets pretty handily in the first round. Just like Howard keeps losing in his early going.

There are many folks who believe that the Rockets don't get that second ring if they don't go and add Clyde Drexler. I'm inclined to agree. I'm not trying to knock Hakeem. But I'm just saying that putting him in the top ten of all time is probably overdoing it. In other words, I wouldn't have him there if/when I make my own list. Good player, good foundation of two championship teams, but probably not any different than Dwight Howard is today.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The bigger issue may be Hakeem getting the nod over Duncan. Hakeem was certainly a threat in his day. I remember it well, in his early going. But he probably wasn't any bigger threat than Dwight Howard is today. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. Our '88 team beat those Rockets pretty handily in the first round. Just like Howard keeps losing in his early going.

There are many folks who believe that the Rockets don't get that second ring if they don't go and add Clyde Drexler. I'm inclined to agree. I'm not trying to knock Hakeem. But I'm just saying that putting him in the top ten of all time is probably overdoing it. In other words, I wouldn't have him there if/when I make my own list. Good player, good foundation of two championship teams, but probably not any different than Dwight Howard is today.

Okay, now for this. Really, Chum?

Hakeem arguably had the best post moves ever, and you're saying he wasn't more of a threat than D12, who has virtually no post moves? Seriously? We're talking about an offensive machine who absolutely sodomized Shaq and Robinson!

1. Hakeem put up 26, 27, 28, 27 PPG for 4 straight years in his prime. D12's career high is 23.

2. Playoff Hakeem averaged 26 PPG. D12 20 PPG. Hakeem averaged 28 and 33 PPG in their championship seasons.

3. Hakeem was a superior passer. Averaged over 3 assists 6 straight years in his prime (including 3.6, 3.6, 3.5). D12's career high is 1.9!

4. Hakeem did all this against guys like McHale, Parrish, Walton, Shaq, Robinson, Ewing. D12 is doing it against Noah, Horford, Bynum. Gimme a break.

[FINtastic]

Originally Posted by chumdawg

The bigger issue may be Hakeem getting the nod over Duncan. Hakeem was certainly a threat in his day. I remember it well, in his early going. But he probably wasn't any bigger threat than Dwight Howard is today. In fact, I'm pretty sure he wasn't. Our '88 team beat those Rockets pretty handily in the first round. Just like Howard keeps losing in his early going.

There are many folks who believe that the Rockets don't get that second ring if they don't go and add Clyde Drexler. I'm inclined to agree. I'm not trying to knock Hakeem. But I'm just saying that putting him in the top ten of all time is probably overdoing it. In other words, I wouldn't have him there if/when I make my own list. Good player, good foundation of two championship teams, but probably not any different than Dwight Howard is today.

I think the Hakeem vs. Duncan makes for a great sports debate, but I'm going to maybe go on the slightly controversial side, side with Cadbane, and take Hakeem over Duncan. Some will automatically think I've lost the argument at this point because Duncan has twice the number of rings. But when you just go by numbers of rings, you miss out on all the variables in play that went into those championship runs. So here's my reasoning:

I think Duncan has been an anchor for a great San Antonio defense during the last decade so you can't say that he's anything but a really, really great defensive player. But I'm not sure if you'd be able to count on two hands the number of players that were better defensively than Hakeem. Maybe not even on one hand. The Rockets constantly finished in the top five of points allowed per 100 possession, which was obviously in no small part due to Hakeem. Hakeem snagged two defensive player of the year awards. He's the all-time leader in blocked shots (and the second place finisher isn't even close. He also piled up a freakish amount of steals for a center - over 2,000 all time - and he was averaging roughly 2 a game in his prime. I think Bill Simmons said in his book that since they started recording blocks and steals, no player has combined total of career blocks and steals that comes within 70% of Olajuwon's numbers.

On the offensive end, I think Duncan might get slightly overrated as great as he is. I give Olajuwon the edge here because he seems to best him in both points per game and true shooting percentage (Duncan's inconsistent free throw shooting some years hurts him here I think). Also as said earlier, Olajuwon had possibly the greatest arsenal of post moves ever. As for the Dwight Howard comparison, there's a reason why Howard spent the last offseason trying to soak up tips from the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mArHU1ewSog). The Dream Shake is still one of the all-time classic signature moves (and anyone who has ever tried to defend it in one-on-one hoops will know that a player who has mastered this is a nightmare to guard). That Hakeem was able to dominate during what I think was the greatest era for centers ever is another major point in his favor.

As for the '88 loss to the Mavericks, you are overlooking that the Mavs didn't win because of Hakeem, they won in spite of him. The dude had an absolute monster series with around 37 points, 17 rebounds, and 3 blocked shots a game (ballpark estimates, I'd have to go back and look them up to be sure). I think he also also had a PER of 39 for the entire series. Quite frankly, that's insane. You wonder how he lost that series with those numbers, and then you look at the Rockets' roster. From top to bottom it was pretty much littered with garbage that pretty much gave him zero support during that series.

That's a theme that runs rampant throughout his career. Hakeem really played with some bad rosters, especially after Sampson fell off and then was shipped away. After they made their unexpected run to the Finals in the 1986, Hakeem didn't play with a teammate in the regular rotation with a PER greater than 16.5 until 1990-91, which is really pretty pitiful. Even after that it's not like he was surrounded by a great talent until the arrival of Clyde the Glide in the middle of the 1994-95 season.

That Hakeem was able to drag the previous year's team to that 1994 championship is an absolute testament to his greatness because his second best player on that title run was either Robert Horry or Otis Thorpe. There's no shame in saying that he needed a Drexler in 1995 to get that second ring - most teams do need a legit Robin even if Hakeem was able to do without one the year before. So that's hardly a knock on him - Duncan probably doesn't his first ring if he doesn't have Robinson by his side. He probably doesn't get rings three or four either without Ginobili.

Duncan's 2003 run probably does get underrated by he basketball world though. Like Olajuwon in 1994, he dragged a pretty mediocre roster to a Larry O'Brien trophy that year. His numbers were insane that year, and I think people forget how green Parker and Ginobili were at the time. There's a reason that Popovich was forced to dust the mothballs off Kerr in Game 6, and that's because the Spurs just weren't getting any offense when the Mavs decided base their defense on absolutely collapsing in on Duncan. So Duncan deserves absolute props for what he did in 2003.

All in all, I think it's a really close call, but I give the edge Hakeem because I think he's slightly better on both ends of the court. Again - really, really close, but I'm personally giving the nod to Hakeem.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

I think the Hakeem vs. Duncan makes for a great sports debate, but I'm going to maybe go on the slightly controversial side, side with Cadbane, and take Hakeem over Duncan. Some will automatically think I've lost the argument at this point because Duncan has twice the number of rings. But when you just go by numbers of rings, you miss out on all the variables in play that went into those championship runs. So here's my reasoning:

I think Duncan has been an anchor for a great San Antonio defense during the last decade so you can't say that he's anything but a really, really great defensive player. But I'm not sure if you'd be able to count on two hands the number of players that were better defensively than Hakeem. Maybe not even on one hand. The Rockets constantly finished in the top five of points allowed per 100 possession, which was obviously in no small part due to Hakeem. Hakeem snagged two defensive player of the year awards. He's the all-time leader in blocked shots (and the second place finisher isn't even close. He also piled up a freakish amount of steals for a center - over 2,000 all time - and he was averaging roughly 2 a game in his prime. I think Bill Simmons said in his book that since they started recording blocks and steals, no player has combined total of career blocks and steals that comes within 70% of Olajuwon's numbers.

On the offensive end, I think Duncan might get slightly overrated as great as he is. I give Olajuwon the edge here because he seems to best him in both points per game and true shooting percentage (Duncan's inconsistent free throw shooting some years hurts him here I think). Also as said earlier, Olajuwon had possibly the greatest arsenal of post moves ever. As for the Dwight Howard comparison, there's a reason why Howard spent the last offseason trying to soak up tips from the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mArHU1ewSog). The Dream Shake is still one of the all-time classic signature moves (and anyone who has ever tried to defend it in one-on-one hoops will know that a player who has mastered this is a nightmare to guard). That Hakeem was able to dominate during what I think was the greatest era for centers ever is another major point in his favor.

As for the '88 loss to the Mavericks, you are overlooking that the Mavs didn't win because of Hakeem, they won in spite of him. The dude had an absolute monster series with around 37 points, 17 rebounds, and 3 blocked shots a game (ballpark estimates, I'd have to go back and look them up to be sure). I think he also also had a PER of 39 for the entire series. Quite frankly, that's insane. You wonder how he lost that series with those numbers, and then you look at the Rockets' roster. From top to bottom it was pretty much littered with garbage that pretty much gave him zero support during that series.

That's a theme that runs rampant throughout his career. Hakeem really played with some bad rosters, especially after Sampson fell off and then was shipped away. After they made their unexpected run to the Finals in the 1986, Hakeem didn't play with a teammate in the regular rotation with a PER greater than 16.5 until 1990-91, which is really pretty pitiful. Even after that it's not like he was surrounded by a great talent until the arrival of Clyde the Glide in the middle of the 1994-95 season.

That Hakeem was able to drag the previous year's team to that 1994 championship is an absolute testament to his greatness because his second best player on that title run was either Robert Horry or Otis Thorpe. There's no shame in saying that he needed a Drexler in 1995 to get that second ring - most teams do need a legit Robin even if Hakeem was able to do without one the year before. So that's hardly a knock on him - Duncan probably doesn't his first ring if he doesn't have Robinson by his side. He probably doesn't get rings three or four either without Ginobili.

Duncan's 2003 run probably does get underrated by he basketball world though. Like Olajuwon in 1994, he dragged a pretty mediocre roster to a Larry O'Brien trophy that year. His numbers were insane that year, and I think people forget how green Parker and Ginobili were at the time. There's a reason that Popovich was forced to dust the mothballs off Kerr in Game 6, and that's because the Spurs just weren't getting any offense when the Mavs decided base their defense on absolutely collapsing in on Duncan. So Duncan deserves absolute props for what he did in 2003.

All in all, I think it's a really close call, but I give the edge Hakeem because I think he's slightly better on both ends of the court. Again - really, really close, but I'm personally giving the nod to Hakeem.

Agreed on all counts. Defensively they're probably pretty close, but offensively Hakeem was clearly better. And that's certainly no knock on Duncan either, because we all know how good he's been offensively over his career. It's just that much a greater testament to Hakeem who for my money was the one of the two most skilled low-post scorers in the history of the game (the other being McHale.) Hakeem, like many other players of that generation, had the unfortunate luck of being sandwiched between the dynasties of the 80's and the 90's. If Tim Duncan is in his prime from the mid-80's to the mid-90's, I doubt he wins 4 championships. And likewise, if Hakeem was in his prime in the post-Jordan era, he probably wins more than 2 rings.

On a completely different note though, I must say I've always thought that 2003 Spurs team has been underrated by pretty much everyone when touting Duncan's greatness. That's not to say that I think Duncan is overrated at all, but I just don't think that supporting cast got enough credit. Honestly, as a Mavs fan I would take that supporting cast over either of the teams that Dirk had around him in 06 or 07 (although admittedly that probably says more about those Mavs teams than it does about the 03 Spurs.) True, Parker and Ginobili were green as hell, but I would still take that backcourt over anything that Dirk had after Nash left for Phoenix. And I would probably also take a 37 year-old D-Rob over Dampier. Lets also not forget Bowen, who was not only arguably the best perimeter defender of the entire decade, he also consistently led the league in 3pt%. I would've KILLED to have a guy like Bowen on the Mavs from '05 to 08. Also, without looking up any of the numbers (too lazy) I seem to remember Stephen Jackson coming up big in the playoffs that year.

Again, not trying to detract anything from Duncan's greatness at all. I just always thought it was a bit odd that people always trashed his supporting cast.

[orangedays]

Originally Posted by FINtastic

On the offensive end, I think Duncan might get slightly overrated as great as he is. I give Olajuwon the edge here because he seems to best him in both points per game and true shooting percentage (Duncan's inconsistent free throw shooting some years hurts him here I think). Also as said earlier, Olajuwon had possibly the greatest arsenal of post moves ever. As for the Dwight Howard comparison, there's a reason why Howard spent the last offseason trying to soak up tips from the master (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mArHU1ewSog). The Dream Shake is still one of the all-time classic signature moves (and anyone who has ever tried to defend it in one-on-one hoops will know that a player who has mastered this is a nightmare to guard). That Hakeem was able to dominate during what I think was the greatest era for centers ever is another major point in his favor.

What a great link. The two things that really jump out at me:

(1) Look at how well Hakeem is moving...at nearly 50 years old! No braces, not a ton of tape. He's obviously not of the Greg Oden / Patrick Ewing school of big men. Incredible athlete.

(2) Howard's got turrible turrible hands, a fact that becomes painfully obvious when compared to the Dream. It's like he's using a couple of frying pans to flip the ball into the net. Also, interestingly enough, I think Howard actually HAS the personality that LeBron tried to pass off while in Cleveland. Extremely gregarious, eager to please, overcompensatingly funny (channeling Chandler Bing?). Something he shares in common with BronBron, no killer instinct. Which is why he'll never be on this list despite his immense athletic talent.

Apologies for the tangent.