Magic - Suns trade

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Wow. Orlando has a squad right now. If they can get Hedo and JR back to their games before they were traded to the Suns and get Agent Zero back? Orlando is going to be a PROBLEM.

Agree on Hedo. But as I've pointed out, they don't need (or want) pre-Phoenix (actually pre-Charlotte) JRich. JRich has been fantastic the past 4 years and he's an infinitely superior shooter than he ever was in GS.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by CadBane

That's your opinion. Some will have Boston as the favorite (and some Miami). Myself (and many others) will now have Orlando as the favorite. We'll see. But don't "heh, no" me on something that is very decidedly agreed upon by many people. You've only been watching basketball for what, 7 years? You got a lot to learn, kid.

Let's get it right, first off. I said "heh, no" to your post saying that Orlando was now the new favorite. You didn't mentioned the Eastern Conference, just that they were the favorite. You'll have a really hard time having many people "decidedly agree upon" the fact that Orlando is now favored over the Lakers. That's what my comment was directed towards, and so spare me the lecture.

As for Orlando...like jthig, I failed to realize just how good Richardson is playing. I knew he was playing good, because I had seen his stats a while back and was quite surprised, but I had failed to remember they were that impressive. He's a better version of Carter, at this stage.

As for Turkoglu, that's where I wonder. His contract is bad, and though I expect some revival of his career, I don't expect him to beast like he did in the past in Orlando. I'm not quite as sure about Arenas...he'll be better now that he doesn't have Wall hovering over him and he doesn't have to act like a model citizen, but I'm not quite sure he's going to Agent Zero again. I think those days are behind him.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by Underdog

These trades seem like a reaction to Miami's recent surge, but it keeps Orlando in the mix...

It really makes me wonder what Chicago and NY are thinking. Chicago is kind of crushed right now with Noah going down. NY is hot but they've lost to Boston and Miami - at home. Are the mellow or do they go and get Melo?

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Let's get it right, first off. I said "heh, no" to your post saying that Orlando was now the new favorite. You didn't mentioned the Eastern Conference, just that they were the favorite. You'll have a really hard time having many people "decidedly agree upon" the fact that Orlando is now favored over the Lakers. That's what my comment was directed towards, and so spare me the lecture.

As for Orlando...like jthig, I failed to realize just how good Richardson is playing. I knew he was playing good, because I had seen his stats a while back and was quite surprised, but I had failed to remember they were that impressive. He's a better version of Carter, at this stage.

As for Turkoglu, that's where I wonder. His contract is bad, and though I expect some revival of his career, I don't expect him to beast like he did in the past in Orlando. I'm not quite as sure about Arenas...he'll be better now that he doesn't have Wall hovering over him and he doesn't have to act like a model citizen, but I'm not quite sure he's going to Agent Zero again. I think those days are behind him.

Agent Zero's best days are behind him, no question. But he's still an explosive scorer that can take over games (at times). He's putting up good numbers on an awful team he doesn't want to be on. His percentages will rise. What he, and JRich, do is they take the pressure off of D12. Carter, and especially Lewis, were making it impossible for D12. Much like when Dirk has been doubled in the past, and we could only watch as JHo and crew. bricked open jumpers, this is what was happening to D12.

Lewis is a terrible basketball player these days. He shouldn't even be starting. Carter still has once in a blue moon games, but he doesn't bring it night in and out at a high level like JRich.

JRich and Arenas are really going to thrive in Orlando, I think. Also, Arenas is a pretty good facilitator, as is Hedo, so they can get more movement and passing going than with Lewis (he either shoots or he doesn't....he's not creating for anyone).

Turk has a junk contract...but Lewis' was worse. Like I said, it's fantastic for a win now move.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Agent Zero's best days are behind him, no question. But he's still an explosive scorer that can take over games (at times). He's putting up good numbers on an awful team he doesn't want to be on. His percentages will rise. What he, and JRich, do is they take the pressure off of D12. Carter, and especially Lewis, were making it impossible for D12. Much like when Dirk has been doubled in the past, and we could only watch as JHo and crew. bricked open jumpers, this is what was happening to D12.

Lewis is a terrible basketball player these days. He shouldn't even be starting. Carter still has once in a blue moon games, but he doesn't bring it night in and out at a high level like JRich.

JRich and Arenas are really going to thrive in Orlando, I think. Also, Arenas is a pretty good facilitator, as is Hedo, so they can get more movement and passing going than with Lewis (he either shoots or he doesn't....he's not creating for anyone).

Turk has a junk contract...but Lewis' was worse. Like I said, it's fantastic for a win now move.

I agree with pretty much all of this. These moves make Orlando much better, at least in the short term. I still don't think they become the favorites in the East, but its them, Boston, and Miami, and you can feel free to rank them however you want. I think putting Orlando #1 is wrong, but I'll admit its quite close and doesn't really bother me if they are that high.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by CadBane

Turk has a junk contract...but Lewis' was worse. Like I said, it's fantastic for a win now move.

Arenas' contract is quite possibly the worst in basketball. Let's not forget that.

It's a win now move. I would even call is a desperation move. If it doesn't work this season they are screwed. They cashed in all of their assets for this deal.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Arenas' contract is quite possibly the worst in basketball. Let's not forget that.

It's a win now move. I would even call is a desperation move. If it doesn't work this season they are screwed. They cashed in all of their assets for this deal.

Dead on.

[bobatundi]

Basically the Magic and Bullets just swapped the two most untradeable contracts in the league.

[rabbitproof]

JRich is also an expiring so it's a wash money-wise with Vince but they come out ahead on talent.

They are taking on loads of money in Hedo and Arenas but they also got ride of Gortat (who is an asset and is probably undervalued but expensive at 15mpg) and Shard (due 45M). Pietrus has a 5M player option next year he might want to take as well.

They definitely added salary but not as bad as it seems IMO.

EDIT:
- Turk has about 33M due after this season if he takes his fat player option. Gortat has about 21M due after this season. Net: 12M+ for a guy who will possibly play 2x the minutes.
- Gilbert is due 60M yes but that's "only" 15M more than Rashard Lewis. Good chunk of change but Gilbert could use a change of scenery and is working off rust, etc. while Rashard seems to be in a freefall.
- Vince is actually guaranteed 4M next year and Pietrus will probably take his 5M option so that's 9M in savings. Rookie deal may be worth 6M while Clark is an expiring. This math works out to a savings of about 14-15M in the Magic's favor.

The uptick in talent and potential is worth the cost after you work out the math IMO.

[BGMaverick9]

With Arenas, you're considering that the improvement actually comes...it's incredibly optimistic to think that way.

He's become arguably the most untrustworthy person there is in the league. That contract is likely only to get worse as time wears on.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

With Arenas, you're considering that the improvement actually comes...it's incredibly optimistic to think that way.

He's become arguably the most untrustworthy person there is in the league. That contract is likely only to get worse as time wears on.

Atleast there is potential. With corpse formerly known as Rashard Lewis, it is a sure death.

They are banking on Gilbert turning it around and Hedo rediscovering his (Orlando) Magic to make this worthwhile but as a team, their prospects are brighter than when they were trying to squeeze drops of production out of the remains of Vince Carter and Rashard Lewis.

Then there is also JRich who is probably the best player of both deals.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Atleast there is potential. With corpse formerly known as Rashard Lewis, it is a sure death.

They are banking on Gilbert turning it around and Hedo rediscovering his (Orlando) Magic to make this worthwhile but as a team, their prospects are brighter than when they were trying to squeeze drops of production out of the remains of Vince Carter and Rashard Lewis.

Then there is also JRich who is probably the best player of both deals.

I would consider it blind faith rather than potential. I understand the need to make the moves, it doesn't mean that it's going to work out.

[grndmstr_c]

Arenas is a turnover machine and an inefficient volume scorer. He never was as good as his reputation, and he's far worse now. He, Richardson and Turk are all weaknesses on the defensive end, and with the loss of Gortat Orlando is now a small team and very short on interior defenders to cover up for them. They're clearly hoping that Richardson and Turkoglu's ability to shoot the three-ball will make up for that, and I'm sure they'll have stretches where that hope will bear out, but I don't see their new roster having much of a chance against a healthy Boston squad, and to my mind they're now disturbingly vulnerable to the foul-drawing prowess of the Heat.

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

The real winner of the trade:
The Super Lakers of course. They always win.


"Kobe, you're a married man. Stop giving autographs to pretty white teenage girls in hotel rooms"

[rabbitproof]

SVG just said Jameer will not come off the bench. One of the new three will.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

SVG just said Jameer will not come off the bench. One of the new three will.

I find that hard to believe. Arenas may be their most talented player on the team and I just think its a disservice to have him at the 2 with Nelson in the game. Jameer needs to come off the bench and give them that much needed spark their second unit will need.
'

Originally Posted by CadBane

Agree on Hedo. But as I've pointed out, they don't need (or want) pre-Phoenix (actually pre-Charlotte) JRich. JRich has been fantastic the past 4 years and he's an infinitely superior shooter than he ever was in GS.

Well J Rich is more of a shooter now and maybe its due to age since he's getting older but I would prefer the J Rich who attacked the basket and shot well from the perimeter.

[dude1394]

Phoenix is done..By the time they have anything to rebuild..nashie will be retired...Pretty interesting how tough it is to stay competitive. Lakers, Spurs, Mavs have done it in the west...

No one's really done it in the east in the last decade.

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

I would consider it blind faith rather than potential. I understand the need to make the moves, it doesn't mean that it's going to work out.

I think Arenas will play better in Orlando than in Washington.

He's never played for a contending team before and will have a bit of a comfort zone with Otis and JRich around.

[xrobx]

am i the only one who thinks this trade makes orlando even worse? i bet we destroy them on tuesday

sucks for jrich and hedo, they get two experience two mavs beatdowns on two different teams in a span of 4 days

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I find that hard to believe. Arenas may be their most talented player on the team and I just think its a disservice to have him at the 2 with Nelson in the game. Jameer needs to come off the bench and give them that much needed spark their second unit will need.
'

Why would you have the team's best point guard come off the bench?

The degree to which you're overrating Arenas is stunning. He might be their most talented player? Seriously?

[xrobx]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Why would you have the team's best point guard come off the bench?

who knows. our best shooting guard comes off the bench

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Arenas' contract is quite possibly the worst in basketball. Let's not forget that.

It's a win now move. I would even call is a desperation move. If it doesn't work this season they are screwed. They cashed in all of their assets for this deal.

But how valuable were those assets? Vince was a huge expiring but it seems like every team in the league has either a big expiring or a TE so those have kind of been devalued. Plus they got one back in Richardson. I think Gortat was the only real asset. An ok to pretty good center on a reasonable contract. From a talent standpoint Richardson is a pretty good return for that asset. Then of course there's the outside chance that either Hedo or Gil could hit.

It was a desperation move but they were desperate. I wouldn't be willing to gamble a year of Howard's prime on the hope the Vince or Lewis would improve.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

SVG just said Jameer will not come off the bench. One of the new three will.

Yeah, it may not make basketball sense, but Jameer has been with the team with years, so you've got to stay loyal to him. I don't know how much of a leader or influence he is, but he's got to have some influence with his teammates, and benching him would just piss him off. He's not a weakness at the 1, so I think this is the only option SVG had. If Arenas starts playing well and Nelson goes through some struggles, he may be able to make that change, but not until then.

[BGMaverick9]

Jalen Rose said it best: If Arenas is playing well, you give him minutes. If he's not playing well, you give him a seat next to the coach. It needs to be a tight leash.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Yeah, it may not make basketball sense, but Jameer has been with the team with years, so you've got to stay loyal to him. I don't know how much of a leader or influence he is, but he's got to have some influence with his teammates, and benching him would just piss him off. He's not a weakness at the 1, so I think this is the only option SVG had. If Arenas starts playing well and Nelson goes through some struggles, he may be able to make that change, but not until then.

I think it makes perfect basketball sense. Nelson is a better point guard than Arenas.

[Dtownsfinest]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Why would you have the team's best point guard come off the bench?

The degree to which you're overrating Arenas is stunning. He might be their most talented player? Seriously?

There's not a player on that team that has all the tools Arenas has in his game. He can post up, rebounds well, passes well, solid defender....there's not a more well rounded player on the team. Maybe i'm overrating him. But I do know that when Arenas was healthy in this league he was one of the best players in this league. Now he's playing with a dominant big men and role players like JR, Hedo and Jameer.

As far as why would you have the teams best point guard off the bench? Its simple. Arenas is having a okay year for his standards and he's still outplaying Jameer Nelson despite playing out of position on a bad team.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Arenas wasn't the most talented player in Washington.

[j0Shi]

Maybe it is only me, but our Florida trip doesn't look that scary out of the sudden?

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

There's not a player on that team that has all the tools Arenas has in his game. He can post up, rebounds well, passes well, solid defender....there's not a more well rounded player on the team. Maybe i'm overrating him. But I do know that when Arenas was healthy in this league he was one of the best players in this league. Now he's playing with a dominant big men and role players like JR, Hedo and Jameer.

As far as why would you have the teams best point guard off the bench? Its simple. Arenas is having a okay year for his standards and he's still outplaying Jameer Nelson despite playing out of position on a bad team.

Outside of points per game there's not much that Arenas is doing better than Nelson. And when adjust for minutes even that's pretty much a wash (Arenas is averaging one more point per 36 minutes). Other than than Nelson has a better fg%, a better 3fg%, averages almost three more assists per 36 minutes, turns the ball over less and, believe it or not, averages more rebounds per 36 (in fairness it's a virtual tie but the fact that it's even close doesn't say much for Arenas in that area).

At this point in his career he's probably best suited for a Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford type role.

[kg_veteran]

I don't know if the trades push Orlando over the top, but you have to give them credit. It's a gutsy pair of moves.

[dude1394]

Yeah I think Arenas is a real roll of the dice. A lot like Sheed was for Detroit. Real talented but a knucklehead. He straightens out and you've got something, not...well not.

[41mvp]

Gortat goes to PHX this is big step in his career!!!

[dude1394]

Getting out from under that lying stinker Otis is bound to be good for his career.

[41mvp]

I never forget 2009-2010 offseason.Marcin wants play for Dallas and Otis destroyed his dream.

[LonghornDub]

I'm pretty stunned anybody would say this trade makes Orlando "the favorite."

[j0Shi]

Wow ... did somebody say desperation?

I really somehow missed that recent losing streak, but the numbers clearly don't justify such a major swap. They still were one of the best defensive teams, best in defensive rebounding (%) and 6th best regarding point differential. Their offense wasn't as effective as last season, but after going 15-4 the bulk of losses came on the road against teams with a combined home-record of 39-16 (.709). I mean ... that can happen!

Now they lost a real solid backup center and got three players (Arenas, Q-Rich and Hedo), which have been on a decline for quite some time and so you just hope that at least one and a half of them will pick up their play from a few years ago? I don't get it. I see them nowhere near Boston or Miami unless a few things work out perfectly. Add this: Who will play defense in Orlando now?

[deamon]

Good move for Marcin, because he definitely will be in S5. Now he will play more minutes and will show his efficiency.
Hedo, Arenas? It's not 2007, it's 2010. No way Arenas as first PG in ORL. He won't reborn, and I doubt Hedo will.
Better deal for PHO. End of playing small ball all the time.
I don't know Hedo will fit really good as PF. So ORL with only one C (Howard) and short PF (Bass). Howard fouled out, and they're done. BOS smash them.

[dirno2000]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

Wow ... did somebody say desperation?

I really somehow missed that recent losing streak, but the numbers clearly don't justify such a major swap. They still were one of the best defensive teams, best in defensive rebounding (%) and 6th best regarding point differential. Their offense wasn't as effective as last season, but after going 15-4 the bulk of losses came on the road against teams with a combined home-record of 39-16 (.709). I mean ... that can happen!

If you're Otis Smith you can't look at this season in a vacuum. You also have to consider the fact that your team wasn't good enough to beat Boston last year and they're even better this year. You also have have to think that by the end of the season the Heat will be better than Lebron's Cavs.

The Magic will always be a good rebounding team with Dwight Howard but they're regressing offensively despite the fact that Howard has become an offensive threat. The two main culprits: Lewis and Carter. Do you really want to gamble a year of Howard's prime on the hope that those two are going to suddenly find it?

They were going to have to make a desperation move at some point to have any chance of competing in the East. Doing it early gives them more time to integrate the new pieces.

Now they lost a real solid backup center and got three players (Arenas, Q-Rich and Hedo), which have been on a decline for quite some time and so you just hope that at least one and a half of them will pick up their play from a few years ago? I don't get it. I see them nowhere near Boston or Miami unless a few things work out perfectly. Add this: Who will play defense in Orlando now?[/QUOTE]

J-Rich is not in decline. If anything he's on an incline this year.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by dirno2000

I think it makes perfect basketball sense. Nelson is a better point guard than Arenas.

This. Anyone arguing Arenas should start over Jameer is bonkers.

[CadBane]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm pretty stunned anybody would say this trade makes Orlando "the favorite."

In the East. Some had them as the favorite before the trade. I'm pretty stunned that you're stunned by such a well perceived notion.