Johnson For Finley and PP - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

mavsman18 · 08-08-2005, 10:59 PM

The rumor going around in Phoenix is that since Joe Johnson does not want to play for the suns he might be headed to dallas in a trade which would send Mavericks Guard Michael Finey and Center Pavel Podezine and a future firt round draft pick to Phoenix

MaverickFFL2 · 08-08-2005, 11:06 PM

I thought Joe Johnson was already in Atlanta... if not, pull the trigger. do it.

Nash13 · 08-08-2005, 11:10 PM

If Pheonix does that deal, i don't see how fans don't hate Sarver. That guy's an idiot.

MavsFanFinley · 08-08-2005, 11:13 PM

He won't pay Joe Johnson $70 million for 5 years but will pay Finley for 3 years at $52 million? Yeah. That makes sense.

akaarod03 · 08-08-2005, 11:14 PM

Nothing against you Mavsman18...but where's EL? I'd like her to confirm it...since she's in Arizona...

DubOverdose · 08-08-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley
He won't pay Joe Johnson $70 million for 5 years but will pay Finley for 3 years at $52 million? Yeah. That makes sense.

They want to pay Johnson, but Johnson doesn't want to play there. Is there any website or article you can point to that can confirm any of this speculation? I could understand it if they are just hoping to get something for Johnson instead of him leaving for nothing, but it seems a bit far fetched that the Suns would trade a player of Johnson's calibur to a contending WC team.

mavs413 · 08-08-2005, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: akaarod03
Nothing against you Mavsman18...but where's EL? I'd like her to confirm it...since she's in Arizona...

I live in AZ too and I have heard nothing, I dont know what Mavsman18 is talking about. It has to be bogus, because its just a really stupid trade for the Suns, in every way possible.
*Actually the only real news I've heard about JJ recently was that if Phoenix matches, then he will only sign a one year (qualifying offer?) so that he will be Unrestricted the next off-season.

MavsFanFinley · 08-08-2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

They want to pay Johnson, but Johnson doesn't want to play there.

It doesn't matter if he wants to play there or not, they can match any offer. If he's that unhappy about it still, trade him after a year.

The Miles · 08-08-2005, 11:23 PM

WE WISH

The Miles · 08-08-2005, 11:26 PM

And also, Joe Johnson can't make more than $12,375,000 (25% of $49.5 cap) and when he is signed/traded he is going out as a Base Year Contract which means that the most the Suns could take back for Johnson in a trade would be $7,834,375 ($6,187,500 x 1.25 + 100k) and that number falls well below what Finley makes let alone Finley + Pavel.

Considering the lack of filler salaries on their roster, the deal would be virtually impossible.

Evilmav2 · 08-08-2005, 11:31 PM

I'd say that would be an atrocious deal if Big Pavel was involved. JJ is a nice player, but I considering the fact that our Mavs are fortunate enough to already command the services of a pair of Donnie-drafted, attack-dog swingmen in Josh and Marquis, I see no reason in purblind hell why we should dump an incredibly promising, sharp-shooting, aggressive man-beast like Podkolzine in exchange for a run of the mill, offensively limited, combo-2/3 like Johnson...

The Miles · 08-08-2005, 11:38 PM

Are you serious? Pavel would keep you from adding one of the most versatile and talented swingmen in the NBA? Joe is 24, he has years ahead of him, he is a great, great talent. Can play three positions, can defend four (situational PF), very good court vision, very good handle, outstanding midrange shot, outstanding range on his jumper, outstanding man to man defender, built like a tank, he is basically the perfect sidekick, a modern day do-it-all type that outside of two things, (1) slower than Kobe/TMac 1st step and (2) habit of pulling up in the lane instead of finishing, can do everything you can ask of a player on the basketball court?

I don't even consider Pavel our best C prospect and if we sign Steven Hunter, I would consider him our 3rd best center prospect. But to each his own, I would trade 10 Pavels for a 24 year old all star level talent.

mavs413 · 08-08-2005, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Evilmav2
I'd say that would be an atrocious deal if Big Pavel was involved. JJ is a nice player, but I considering the fact that our Mavs are fortunate enough to already command the services of a pair of Donnie-drafted, attack-dog swingmen in Josh and Marquis, I see no reason in purblind hell why we should dump an incredibly promising, sharp-shooting, aggressive man-beast like Podkolzine in exchange for a run of the mill, offensively limited, combo-2/3 like Johnson...

Is that sarcasm? I hope it is.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-08-2005, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Evilmav2
I'd say that would be an atrocious deal if Big Pavel was involved. JJ is a nice player, but I considering the fact that our Mavs are fortunate enough to already command the services of a pair of Donnie-drafted, attack-dog swingmen in Josh and Marquis, I see no reason in purblind hell why we should dump an incredibly promising, sharp-shooting, aggressive man-beast like Podkolzine in exchange for a run of the mill, offensively limited, combo-2/3 like Johnson...

Are you nuts? I'll be pleasantly surprised if Pavel EVER accomplishes anything in the NBA. JJ is one of the most versitile and underrated players in the league. He's got range, size, decent post game, plays good defense, above average passer... He's a Pierce-light really. He does everything we can only wish our guards could do. That deal is WAY too good to be true.

akaarod03 · 08-08-2005, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: The Miles
And also, Joe Johnson can't make more than $12,375,000 (25% of $49.5 cap) and when he is signed/traded he is going out as a Base Year Contract which means that the most the Suns could take back for Johnson in a trade would be $7,834,375 ($6,187,500 x 1.25 + 100k) and that number falls well below what Finley makes let alone Finley + Pavel.

Considering the lack of filler salaries on their roster, the deal would be virtually impossible.

Hey Miles...would Daniels and P-Pod work?

From Phoenix's perspective...they get a relatively cheap replacement in Daniels, a project center in P-Pod, and a future 1st round pick. This deal would clearly be better than Diaw and 2 1st round picks from Atlanta.

From Dallas' perspective...this kid is talented, underrated, etc. I would love Johnson to come to Dallas.

With all that said...would Phoenix trade someone of that caliber to their WC rival?

The Miles · 08-09-2005, 12:03 AM

Marquis and Pavel work perfectly for the Suns as far as salary in.

Dallas would need to find a way to dump a contract worth $4,110,550 or higher.

It is too bad Bradley is retiring, I think you could honestly drop him on a team like the Hawks for a 2nd rounder.

EDIT:

So basically it would have to be a 3 way due to Joe being BYC, but if Bradley weren't retiring or if the Cats would take Stackhouse, it could work. Just keep Finley around as the 6th man and go win a title.

PG-Jet | Devin
SG-Joe | Fin
SF-Josh | Fin

Maybe Rawle can play now, at least enough to be the 4th swing. Or Dirk/Van Horn can get some minutes at backup SF. It could work.

steponhens · 08-09-2005, 12:12 AM

There is no way this deal ever happens. I would like it but no possible way this goes through.

EricaLubarsky · 08-09-2005, 01:37 AM

I've been watching FSN sports report and KPNX, channel 12's blurb and they havent mentioned it.

All I can say is that it is possible but not at all likely.

FreshJive · 08-09-2005, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: MavsFanFinley

Quote:

They want to pay Johnson, but Johnson doesn't want to play there.

It doesn't matter if he wants to play there or not, they can match any offer. If he's that unhappy about it still, trade him after a year.

According to Sarver on Phx radio that is exactly what they plan on doing. He said that he told JJ if he really wanted to go to Atl then he had better get a sign and trade worked out because they will match an offer against JJ's wishes if they don't get any compensation.

As far as JJ in Dallas...He's leaving Phoenix because he wants to be the man. He doesn't want to be the "perfect sidekick" as Miles describes him.

EricaLubarsky · 08-09-2005, 01:41 AM

I dont think he wants to be the man as much as he wants to be a starter and a top 3 option. He would be that in Dallas.

Evilmav2 · 08-09-2005, 01:42 AM

Phoenix would never trade the overrated JJ to Dallas, and I'll darned well say this again: I see no gosh-damned reason on Earth why a Dallas team that's currently retaining the superlative services of Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, and Marquis Daniels would find any reason in tarnation to consider trading away a man who Donnie told Chad Ford in '03, "might be the best talent in the draft", in exchange for a 2-3 combo guard who's had a long, demonstrably crippling problem in his patent inability to create his own shots...

snoop · 08-09-2005, 01:48 AM

if the mavs are involed in a JJ deal its part of a 3 team trade. Dallas does not need him but could use him to dump fins deal.

EricaLubarsky · 08-09-2005, 01:53 AM

only problem is that we couldnt trade Finley and PPod for him. We would have to trade other parts. Stackhouse/Podkolzine, Tariq and Devin...those are the kind of deals that Phoenix would work.

FreshJive · 08-09-2005, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
I dont think he wants to be the man as much as he wants to be a starter and a top 3 option. He would be that in Dallas.

Really? Why else would he want to go to Atl if its not to be the man? He told Sarver not to match. I'm pretty sure he starts next year if he stays in Phx now that Q is gone.

kriD · 08-09-2005, 04:30 AM

Johnson trade hinges on ruling
Hawks owners have day in court

Paul Coro
The Arizona Republic
Aug. 9, 2005 12:00 AM

The Joe Johnson saga moves to Atlanta Hawks co-owner Steve Belkin's hometown court today in Boston, where litigation prolongs two NBA front offices' frustration.

A ruling this morning could strip Belkin's power as the Hawks' NBA governor. If so, the Johnson trade to which the Suns agreed July 31 could become a reality today.

Belkin, who has a 30 percent ownership stake, blocked a deal that would send Johnson to Atlanta for guard Boris Diaw, two first-round picks with lottery protections and a $4.9 million trade exception. When Belkin learned last week that his co-owners planned to remove him as governor, he received a temporary restraining order in Suffolk County (Mass.) Superior Court.

Belkin seeks a preliminary injunction against his co-owners, who back the trade. Atlanta's eight other owners hope to prove Belkin's refusal to sign off on a trade is a legally binding action against the wishes of the partnership's majority.

"All of us on the inside understand (Belkin's position) is a ploy," Hawks General Manager Billy Knight told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "It has nothing to do with the trade itself. It has nothing to do with the terms of the trade. He has told me a number of times, in meetings and in private, that he would like to keep the payroll at the bare minimum - not sign free agents.

"He (Johnson) is a big-time player who wants to come to Atlanta. That's a powerful message when he wants to play with us. For someone to try to waylay that and get in the way of that - to me, it's unforgivable."

Belkin has said his problem is giving up two first-round picks, not the $69.6 million offer the Hawks made to Johnson.

kg_veteran · 08-09-2005, 09:10 AM

Miles is right. Although I believe that there technically might be a way to send Finley and Pavel to the Suns in a multi-team deal for Joe Johnson, practicaly speaking it's impossible.

I can't imagine that the Suns would deal with Dallas even if the Atlanta deal falls through. I scanned a popular Phoenix messageboard this morning and saw mention of a trade with New Orleans (for Brown/Claxton/No. 1) if Atlanta falls through, but from what I can tell that was just something somebody thought up, not a legit rumor.

I think the Hawks deal will go through, which will make this all a moot point. Still, if Joe Johnson had interest in Dallas and Phoenix was at all willing to cooperate, Dallas would have to make it happen.

alby · 08-09-2005, 10:54 AM

I dont think he wants to be the man as much as he wants to be a starter and a top 3 option. He would be that in Dallas.

JJ would be a top 2 option in Phoenix in a year or two, Nash will be declining and they wont be resigning if Marion if they keep JJ so what is his problem. Players today.. seriously

V2M · 08-09-2005, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: alby
I dont think he wants to be the man as much as he wants to be a starter and a top 3 option. He would be that in Dallas.

JJ would be a top 2 option in Phoenix in a year or two, Nash will be declining and they wont be resigning if Marion if they keep JJ so what is his problem. Players today.. seriously

JJ has an impeccable record so far and for someone like that to leave the Suns for Atlanta, for the same money, it's gotta be team chemistry more than anything.

His problem may be more Amare and his attitude than anything. It's been reported that he'd been slighted by Amare during a game against Miami. And that may only be one of many. Amare is easily the most egotistical of all the superstars barring Showbe. It ain't easy to play with such players.

It's just the Phoenix ownership and media trying to spin control the situation and tarnish his name, once JJ has decided to leave 'em.

Mavs414 · 08-09-2005, 01:54 PM

i wished but it wont happen

Thespiralgoeson · 08-09-2005, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Evilmav2 see no gosh-damned reason on Earth why a Dallas team that's currently retaining the superlative services of Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, and Marquis Daniels would find any reason in tarnation to consider trading away a man who Donnie told Chad Ford in '03, "might be the best talent in the draft", in exchange for a 2-3 combo guard who's had a long, demonstrably crippling problem in his patent inability to create his own shots...

Here's a good reason: Johnson is better than any of those players you just mentioned. Now if we traded for him, Howard would be off the table, but Marquis and Stack? Jeez, you know as well as the rest of us what we need from the 2 spot; defense, 3 pt range, and perhaps most importantly, passing.

cheesestar · 08-09-2005, 10:26 PM

kinda off topic, but... we did break his face

anyways, voicing many opinions already said: if pheonix is willing to do it do it, but i doubt theyre willing to do it

EricaLubarsky · 08-09-2005, 10:35 PM

Howard/KVH
Johnson/Christie

is better than

Howard
Stackhouse/Daniels

Blonde Bomber · 08-09-2005, 11:04 PM

damn...I noticed all the replies to this thread and thought there might be something to the rumor. Ohh well...still think Phoenix ends up with Finley anyway, and Dallas will be left holding a bag of magic beans in his place.

Evilmav2 · 08-10-2005, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: EricaLubarsky
Howard/KVH
Johnson/Christie

is better than

Howard
Stackhouse/Daniels

But next year, and in the long term, is (assuming your implied trade is something like the Fin
+ some Stack/Daniels/Pavel combo for JJ and Hunter deals being bandied around earlier on this thread):

Joe Johnson/Keith Van Horn/Christie/Howard

better than

Keith Van Horn/Stackhouse/Marquis/Howard/Christie/Pavel?

In my opinion, trading for Joe Johnson might well marginally improve the efficacy of our swingman rotation (particularly in the area of spot-3 point shooting), but I just don't believe that such a marginal improvement is necessary considering the fact that I'd bet Marquis should come back showing good improvement this year (and he should probably be slavering at the thought of taking up some of Finley's rotation minutes), Stackhouse still looks to me like he's got an awful lot left in his tank (and he's done things in this league that the good Mr. Johnson will never, ever do), and because I think it would be a terrible, short-sighted mistake to toss Donnie's project Pavel in the trashcan, considering just how rare, expensive, and incredibly difficult to aquire, skilled, aggressive, sharp-shooting, coordinated giant big men have traditionally been in this league.

Years in the future, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if you and many other Mavs fans might be able to look back at the 2004 draft and marvel at the fact that we picked up our all-star center, the Great Siberian Bear (Donnie's 'Most Talented Player in the Draft') for the meager price of the 21st pick, and I would hope that y'all would be similarly abashed and dismayed to think back to a black moment in Mavs history when you actually advocated trading him away in exchange for a guy like Joe Johnson who'd done nothing over the last 4 or 5 years but score 19 points per game for a decrepid losing Atlanta team (I still think that's where he's going to end up) and humiliatingly fail in his attempts to become a full-time point guard (I for one, will greatly enjoy seeing him live up to his potential as a 6-8, 4.1 apg, 3.6 TOpg, broke-skid-row-alchoholic's-Magic-Johnson for the Hawks, assuming Stern is able to clear up this Belkin mess in the next few days)...

Thespiralgoeson · 08-10-2005, 10:04 AM

Pavel may be a great player one day, when Dirk is in his 30's on the downside of his career. I don't see Pavel being able to contribute ANYTHING within the next two or maybe even three years. JJ would give us the best chance of winning a title NOW, while Dirk is still in his prime.

Some Guy · 08-10-2005, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: Evilmav2
considering just how rare, expensive, and incredibly difficult to aquire, skilled, aggressive, sharp-shooting, coordinated giant big men have traditionally been in this league.

.... for the meager price of the 21st pick

If both of these statements are true, what does that say about Pavel?

kappasigma · 08-10-2005, 11:43 AM

this trade makes as much sense as taw for lebron

D-town funkadellic · 08-10-2005, 01:01 PM

[quote]
Originally posted by: cheesestar
kinda off topic, but... we did break his face

haha- I know I wouldnt play for someone who broke my face.

The Miles · 08-10-2005, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Joe Johnson/Keith Van Horn/Christie/Howard

better than

Keith Van Horn/Stackhouse/Marquis/Howard/Christie/Pavel?

Yes. Forget Van Horn and Christie, they won't be here past the next couple of years.

Joe/Josh/DJ>>>Quis/Josh/Pavel.....Joe isn't older than Marquis, he is five months younger than Marquis and is a much better player already, you think Marquis will not only make up that difference but also leap past him over the years? I am not going to say he can't, I like Quis alot within 15 feet of the basket, but the odds aren't on his side.

Pavel the most talented player in the draft? Dwight Howard is better right now at 19 than Pavel will ever be. I heard Donnie say that Pavel could be a good backup C someday, never heard him say that he was the best in the draft. I guarantee you that if Dallas had the choice between Dwight, Okafor, Jefferson, and Pavel that Pavel wouldn't be the choice.

Quote:

Stackhouse still looks to me like he's got an awful lot left in his tank (and he's done things in this league that the good Mr. Johnson will never, ever do),

Like what, shoot 36% for his career in the playoffs? Be labeled a cancer everywhere he goes? Fail to co-exist with two all time greats, Michael Jordan and Allen Iverson? I like Stack for what he is, an aging backup, but people get blinded by his 30 ppg season. He scored more PPG than the team's win total, shot like 40% to get there, and had over 4 turnovers a game. Stack can't shoot 48% from the field let alone 48% from the 3. Stack can't play PG. Stack can't defend like Joe. Stack can drive/dunk/draw fouls better than Joe, what else can he do even remotely as well as Joe?

Eh, I like Stack and don't want to trash him but this is ridiculous. I just can't see not making a move because you don't want to trade a guy that could end up being a good backup C someday.

The Miles · 08-10-2005, 01:24 PM

Donnie Nelson said on Mav.com (LINK):

Quote:

On first round draft pick Pavel Podkolzin:
We’re really excited about our second pick. He’s a young, 7-5 developing player. He’s a guy that’s got good hands. He’s young to the game and has only been playing roughly four or five years. He’s a young guy that <u>we hope down the line will develop into a nice backup.</u>