2018 NBA Playoffs

[Harpospoke]

Well somehow...against all odds, Hou and GS managed to fight their way through the "tough West". Boy that was tough for them.

Now lets see if Hou can put up a fight at all to uphold this "tough West" claim. Hopefully this series is worth watching.

In the East...anyone else getting a Philadelphia Eagles vibe from the Celtics? They got injury problems....after which everyone picked them to lose early in the playoffs. ...Then they go out and win.

I'm getting the feeling those Cavs role players are going to suddenly regress to the Pacers level of performance against the Celtics and their defense. Calling it now.

Celtics Warriors Finals anyone? Wonder what the TV ratings would be for that?

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

No... The raptors and Wizards don't have a mvp candidate. It would be like if the Pelicans were in the East and he joined anthony davis and then brought Porzingis with them. Wade was a MVP candidate, top 5 in votes and a former champion(he sends thank you cards to the refs to this day) and Bosh was a 24/11 guy. Nobody on the Wizards or Raptors gives you either of those things. So no your example does not work.

I see you left out the fact that the Heat was them putting together a new team with no knowledge of how it would gel.

And...you left out him going to the Cavs....which would be worse than KD going to Toronto. Raptors were already a contender while the Cavs were a lottery team.

I mean...was it "easier" than staying in Cleveland with a team whose management had proven over the course of 7 years that they were incapable of putting a good team around him? I suppose that's got to be true because of how impossible the situation was in Cleveland. Pretty sad that a player has to take that into his own hands because his team is so inept though.

Right... joining a team with 32-33yr olds was a good long term plan. People were saying the Spurs were done back then. Two of their big 3 were 32-33. The other had just missed 30 games that year. And even if you truly believe it would have somehow been easier to join the West(no)... that just means in ur mind it would have been easier. So lets pat lebron on the back for not choosing the easiest possible path but still an easy one. I'm saying and pretty much everyone I've ever talked to says- Lebron chose the easy way. That it, not the easiest way possible but the easy way. The easiest way possible would have been 1 year with lakers or celtics and then continue 1 year rentals to get rings with whoever the best team was. And you know what? With what Lebron started and what KD has now done... I wouldn't be surprised at all if the next generational talent does exactly that thanks to these 2.

Agree to disagree.

I don't put any stock in "everyone says" stuff. That's the Appeal to Popularity fallacy. Lots of fans hate Lebron so of course they'll say stuff like that.

Doesn't make it true. Lebron would of course have chosen a strong West team if that's where the best teams were if he wanted to take the easy route. We can debate which team that would be all you want. If you keep discounting every West team though....then that would just defeat the claim that the East was weaker.

It's never made any sense at all to claim that Lebron stays in the East so he can make it to the Finals and lose every year. Who would do that?

[Bryan_Wilson]

Right, Hou and GSW's had an easy time in the West so that means the East isn't nearly as bad as ppl think. If the NBA announced tomorrow that they were taking the first team who sent a representative to their office from the West and moving them to the East to replace the Orlando Tragic... all 15 teams from the West would have sent their entire office personnel to try to move East. There may even be a few hospitalizations or a fatality in the scrum.

Nothing left to debate. You think going against much harder competition but joining an established squad would have been easier than joining 2 guys he was friends with in a super cheese eastern conference. And you think staying in Cleveland would have been futile and he can't be faulted for leaving and somehow wasn't making it easy by leaving. And I guess it was actually not a given that the Heat would instantly become successful in that shit eastern conference because they were forming something new(). And that fans and KD are responsible for this shit era, the whole starting point of the topic. And Lebron is hated unjustly and I guess whatever else, maybe parting the red sea somewhere. So there's nothing left to debate. You blame fans and KD for this era, I blame Lebron.

Still a top 5 player of all time, not hating on Lebron's talents. Have to put that out there before some random lebron fan signs up here thanks to me and calls me some sort of hater without reading previous posts. Only thing worse than Lebron fans are prolly Jordan and Kobe fans.... and sadly some of my fellow cowboys fans... Or any type of houston fan tbh.

[j0Shi]

This whole East vs. West debate is so tiring. There's no argument because what's the harm merging conferences, divisions, even the schedule out so each team plays every one else exactly three times, and then let the best 16 fight things out in the playoffs?

It's not the 80s where travelling distance matters so much. You would probably need to extend the regular season by two weeks or so to get a couple more rest days and have longer home and away stretches, but other than that? Also it's not like we have plenty of great rivalries in conferences and divisions in today's NBA.

Maybe East vs. West is exaggerated a bit, but you could still get rid of all the complaints with a fair league system. I bet somebody could even write some fancy algorithm that makes sure all teams do the same travel mileage throughout the season.

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by j0Shi

This whole East vs. West debate is so tiring. There's no argument because what's the harm merging conferences, divisions, even the schedule out so each team plays every one else exactly three times, and then let the best 16 fight things out in the playoffs?

It's not the 80s where travelling distance matters so much. You would probably need to extend the regular season by two weeks or so to get a couple more rest days and have longer home and away stretches, but other than that? Also it's not like we have plenty of great rivalries in conferences and divisions in today's NBA.

Maybe East vs. West is exaggerated a bit, but you could still get rid of all the complaints with a fair league system. I bet somebody could even write some fancy algorithm that makes sure all teams do the same travel mileage throughout the season.

Traveling is really that much of a deal. Your body cant do that and still perform. Its just not feasible. There would have to be way much more time in between and the season is already long enough.

[Harpospoke]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Right, Hou and GSW's had an easy time in the West so that means the East isn't nearly as bad as ppl think. If the NBA announced tomorrow that they were taking the first team who sent a representative to their office from the West and moving them to the East to replace the Orlando Tragic... all 15 teams from the West would have sent their entire office personnel to try to move East. There may even be a few hospitalizations or a fatality in the scrum.

I don't remember that happening. A "what if" isn't really a good argument.

Nothing left to debate. You think going against much harder competition but joining an established squad would have been easier than joining 2 guys he was friends with in a super cheese eastern conference.

Of course. It's self evident, isn't it? Why join an inferior team if you want to win championships? That would be extremely illogical. Obviously if you wanted the easy path, you go join the strongest team you can find. That would be a West team. Again....why would anyone want to go to the Finals every year and lose? That makes no sense. You've got to explain that one first.

And you think staying in Cleveland would have been futile and he can't be faulted for leaving and somehow wasn't making it easy by leaving. And I guess it was actually not a given that the Heat would instantly become successful in that shit eastern conference because they were forming something new().

We just saw it in action. OKC put together some "names" and it failed. You never know how it's going to work. Chemistry is everything in basketball. We actually saw it in action in the Finals in 2011 in case you forgot. The Heat weren't a real team and the Mavs were. The Mavs had the better coach, played better defense, and had the better bench. Getting together with his friends in Miami sounded like a lot of fun to them, but they had no idea if it would work. If Lebron had joined the Spurs it would have been a guaranteed great team. They had done all the chemistry work already and had a great coach.

And no, I don't see the problem with Lebron leaving the Cavs. He gave them 7 years and they did nothing. How is that not fair? By year 7, MJ already had Pippen, Grant, and Jackson for a couple of years.

I also think Dirk would have been justified in leaving the Mavs a year or two ago. He didn't, but I wouldn't have held it against him if he did. The Mavs were obviously going nowhere.

And that fans and KD are responsible for this shit era, the whole starting point of the topic. And Lebron is hated unjustly and I guess whatever else, maybe parting the red sea somewhere. So there's nothing left to debate. You blame fans and KD for this era, I blame Lebron.

I know where the "rings" stuff comes from. It's the fans. It makes zero sense. There is nothing remotely logical about counting rings to measure how great a player is. It's a team sport. But over the years, players have started buying into that nonsense.

Fans are STILL doing it. Bragging about "rings'...and still complaining about players "chasing rings". So it's still happening right in front of us.

[j0Shi]

So Casey might be on its way out as COY?

[sefant77]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

Yeah I can't believe I'm saying it but I really am rooting hard for the Celtics right now. I never root for Boston in anything...

I root for the warriors to win four or five in a row so the casual fan wakes up and realize what a boring shit product the NBA became and stops paying and watching.

Go Warriors

[Scoobay]

Man sign up Marcus smart to play safety for the cowboys... made a great read and interception on that last inbounds

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by Scoobay

Man sign up Marcus smart to play safety for the cowboys... made a great read and interception on that last inbounds

Also missed the free throw that gave the Sixers a chance to tie.


IMO Cavs in 5. Warriors in 6.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Scoobay

Man sign up Marcus smart to play safety for the cowboys... made a great read and interception on that last inbounds

Todd Archer, is that you? (he posted this at the exact same moment you did, lol)

@toddarcher: And if the Cowboys are looking for a safety, Marcus Smart might help there too. Did you see him cover ground on final play?

[Underdog]

@BillSimmons: My fav moment of that game was Smart yelling at Stevens to keep him on Saric at the end right before that key turnover. “I GOT THIS!” He was screaming. Then after - “I TOLD YOU!” I fucking love that guy.

[Scoobay]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Todd Archer, is that you? (he posted this at the exact same moment you did, lol)

@toddarcher: And if the Cowboys are looking for a safety, Marcus Smart might help there too. Did you see him cover ground on final play?

Lol just shows what the average cowboys fan thinks of our current safety position and how desperate we are for a good one.

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by Scoobay

Lol just shows what the average cowboys fan thinks of our current safety position and how desperate we are for a good one.

I rly don't want to watch jeff heath start another year.

[Harpospoke]

Originally Posted by sefant77

I root for the warriors to win four or five in a row so the casual fan wakes up and realize what a boring shit product the NBA became and stops paying and watching.

Go Warriors

I understand the sentiment. But it didn't work that way in the 90s when there was mostly just one dominant team. The sport got more popular than ever.

And it's possible we may be about to enter a new golden age like the early 80s when there are several real contenders every year instead of like now when we know exactly who the champ will be.

Celtics and Sixers are only going to get better. If Lebron goes to the Sixers they might win it all next season. GS will probably run out of gas within a couple of years. Most teams can't get to more than 3 Finals in a row and they are going for #4. And if the Jazz and Pelicans add some key players they could be a threat too.

----------------------------

Next time some fan claims that the players today have it easy because the refs don't allow any contact I'm going to direct them to the end of the Celtics/Sixers game tonight. Geez.... No wonder today's players are in love with the 3 ball. If you take it to the basket late you get clobbered with no FT reward.

If they let that kind of stuff go, the Celtics can definitely shut down Love and Lebron near the basket.

---------------------

More proof these "awards" are without any real crediblity. Brad Stevens got....ZERO votes for Coach of the Year.

So historians will look back on the "awards" this year and think Dwane Casey was a better coach than Brad Stevens and James Harden was a better player than Lebron James.



--------------------------

On the Warriors, I think Jalen Rose broke down exactly why the Warriors will beat the Rockets easily. Go to 2:38:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTNkRRcdA4k

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

The fans actually started it.

Fans of a certain player started "counting rings" post 90s and attributing them to a single player. It became a part of a player's legacy even though it's a team stat.

The players heard that over the years. (especially in the age of social media) So....they didn't want to end up like Barkley and Malone and accused of being losers because their teams weren't good enough. Barkley himself now admits he would have gone somewhere like Houston sooner if he'd know it would be held against him that he didn't get a ring.

Lebron gave the Cavs 7 years. That sounds like plenty to me. At that point, it starts to become obvious that organization can't get it done. So...Lebron did it himself. Pretty impressive really.

Now fans are playing it both ways. "He didn't win enough rings!" on one hand and... "He's chasing rings!" on the other hand.

Fans need to pick a side on that.

And look how it effects the players. Here is how they talk now. Go to 1:15 and see Shaq mocking Barkley over "rings". It's the most illogical thing in the world but it's the mantra now:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnPIdSVfxqs

+ rep

Could not agree more.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Melonhead

The lebron hate and nitpicking of his career ITT is laughable. So much pent up disdain. People always find something new to try and minimize his accomplishments and hes done just about everything right in his career when the spotlight and hype was on him like no one ever at 13 years old.

15 years in the league and he's breaking his own career records. Jordan was near retirement at this point. Bron has and will have by the end blown away 95% of Jordan's records. If all you got is rings and you dont like his superstar attitude, then lol. All these guys have egos. Bron has faced more tougher competition throughout his career in the playoffs, mainly the Finals.

Also + rep

[Thespiralgoeson]

I understand the Lebron hate to some extent. When one player is more or less the face of the sport, it's really easy to hate that player, unless you are specifically a fan of that team. I hated Kobe. I hate Tom Brady. Those guys are easy to hate. And for many years, I hated Lebron too, just as a lot of people on this forum clearly do.

But I just have to admit it now. I love Lebron. I mean, I absolutely f*cking love Lebron. Why? Because at a time when the Mavs are completely irrelevant, Lebron alone has kept my interest in the NBA alive. Because he is not only the best player in the world, but he is so jaw-droppingly, mind-bogglingly great, that I honestly just feel privileged to watch him. Jordan gave me that feeling too, and I must also admit that Jordan was the reason I started watching the NBA- along with millions and millions of other kids in the 90s.

This playoffs alone, he has given us some absolutely classic memories. The buzzer beater in game 5 against the Pacers has rightfully been compared to Jordan's "the shot," and "Lebronto" will be remembered decades from now. Things like this are the reason I keep watching the NBA, when my home team doesn't give me much of a reason to.

The arguments against him are increasingly pathetic, and honestly hilarious at this point.

"He took the easy way to the title," by leaving Cleveland for Miami, or leaving Miami to come back to Cleveland." Uh... what exactly is he supposed to do? Stay in a bad situation with a dysfunctional franchise, instead of going where has a better chance to win? Why? Seriously, anyone who hates Lebron for this reason, ask yourself- WHY THE F*CK WOULD ANYONE EVER DO THAT?! Team loyalty? Or because it's somehow more honorable or meaningful to stay and try to win a championship on a bad team with no help-knowing that it's probably futile and there's little odds of actually winning- rather than go somewhere where your chances are better? Give me a break. That's not honorable nor does it make anyone more of a winner. It's just plain stupid.

"The East is weak. If he was in the West he'd rarely get to the finals." You do know you could apply this exact same logic to Magic Johnson, yes? What the hell competition did the Lakers ever in the West back in the 80s? The East OTOH was absolutely brutal. Does that diminish Magic's legacy at all? Or the Showtime Lakers? Of course not. The natural extension of this argument against Lebron is always that he's "weak" or a "bitch" for staying in the East, instead of coming to the West. This logic is ridiculous for all the same reasons the first argument is. To those who feel this way, let me ask, which team in the West should he or could have gone to in 2010 that would provide him with a better opportunity to win titles than Miami? Or Cleveland in 2014? Conversely, if Lebron DOES come West this year, to say, Houston, are you going to follow your argument to its logical conclusion and give him credit for playing in the tougher conference? Will you find any playoff success he has in the Western Conference more meaningful than his years in the East? Somehow I doubt it. I for one never believed that Lebron consciously decided that he had to stay in the East. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he considered it when making his choices. But I don't think in either 2010 nor 2014, any team in the West had the better situation for Lebron in terms of teammates and cap space. Either way, this idea that Lebron choosing situations that are beneficial to him is somehow knock on his legacy, that it makes him less of a winner? It's just ridiculous. I guess Kevin Garnett should have stayed in Minnesota then, instead of winning that title with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen?

I find it somewhat hilarious that the narrative surrounding Lebron's legacy now is always centered on comparing him to Jordan. People who dislike Lebron will argue that he's not as good as Jordan for this reason or that reason- usually the argument just comes down to rings- but there is the other silliness which I've discussed above. For my money, Jordan is still the GOAT, and honestly I don't think I will ever live to see a player better than him. Here's the thing about this MJ vs. Lebron argument though. The fact that THAT is the only argument you ever hear about Lebron anymore- that he's not quite as good as MJ- isn't that the ultimate testament to his greatness and his legacy? He is so much better than anyone else from his generation, that even his detractors are relegated to arguing he's only the second (or maybe third) greatest player of all time. Or better yet, they won't even argue his greatness, they'll simply whine about how something he does or says rubs them the wrong way personally. Which is fine. That's our right as sports fans.

To those who want to derisively compare Lebron to Jordan though, I might suggest there is some revisionist history going on. There were arguments against Jordan's greatness back in the day too, and they were about as pathetic as the arguments against Lebron. "He never beat Bird's Celtics or Magic's Lakers in their prime..." "The league was so much weaker in the 90s than it was in the 80s..." The most pathetic of all, "he had a lot of help." As for those who just don't like Lebron, and think he's not as classy or sportsmanlike as Jordan... I think you might have forgotten or just never known about MJ's dark side. MJ was an absolutely insufferable, mean-spirited S.O.B. who made life miserable for pretty much everyone around him. And his ego was easily as big as any that has ever been seen in the history of sports. That didn't stop him from being the GOAT, and it didn't stop this 90s kid from idolizing him like all the rest.

[j0Shi]

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Traveling is really that much of a deal. Your body cant do that and still perform. Its just not feasible. There would have to be way much more time in between and the season is already long enough.

I don't know. It's more not wanting to make it work for me instead of real obstacles.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

Well somehow...against all odds, Hou and GS managed to fight their way through the "tough West". Boy that was tough for them.

Now lets see if Hou can put up a fight at all to uphold this "tough West" claim. Hopefully this series is worth watching.

GS is arguably the best team of all time behind that Celtics that won like 11 championships. They literally have 4 starters that could carry their own team and 5th guy that regularly gets triple doubles. The West could be the toughest they've ever been in the history of the NBA and GS would still probably cruise to the Finals because they are just that damn good.

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

In the East...anyone else getting a Philadelphia Eagles vibe from the Celtics? They got injury problems....after which everyone picked them to lose early in the playoffs. ...Then they go out and win.

There is just not enough that can be said about Brad Stevens ... except that he seriously got screwed for some reason in the COY voting.

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

And...you left out him going to the Cavs....which would be worse than KD going to Toronto. Raptors were already a contender while the Cavs were a lottery team.

I mean...was it "easier" than staying in Cleveland with a team whose management had proven over the course of 7 years that they were incapable of putting a good team around him? I suppose that's got to be true because of how impossible the situation was in Cleveland. Pretty sad that a player has to take that into his own hands because his team is so inept though.

The Lebron hate stems almost entirely around The Decision and then joining super-friends. Worrying about team chemistry was very little an issue when the best player in the league joins Wade and Bosh who were both in their absolute prime. Then after that he joins/forces another duo in Kyrie Irving and KLove ... who ironically did have chemistry issues.

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

It's never made any sense at all to claim that Lebron stays in the East so he can make it to the Finals and lose every year. Who would do that?

Your logic is flawed in that you are assuming he believes he will lose every year in the finals. Do you not agree that a much easier path to the Finals gives him the best chance to win a championship? He is much less likely to face a team that just happens to get hot for a series and knock them out of the playoffs. In a super-star driven league, the biggest super-star of all can literally carry a team through a weaker conference for the first round or two.

Just to clarify, you can criticize/dislike/hate a player but still think he is the best player in the league or top 3 of all time.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Just to clarify, you can criticize/dislike/hate a player but still think he is the best player in the league or top 3 of all time.

Bringing the conversation full circle...

Originally Posted by Underdog

There are two truths about LeBron:

1) He's the best basketball player in the world, arguably the best ever.

2) "Arguably" because he's a bitch when it comes to team-building and loyalty.

[mac222b]

LeBron choosing the best team available in the weaker conference has actually already paid off with a championship. Things happen- Steph injury, Draymond nut-punch. It was totally part of his calculus.

He's a great basketball player- one of the best ever. You could agree with that but also think him a bandwagon jumping bitch who bails when the rosters - ones which he has an outsized hand assembling- collapse under the weight of their own baked-in shortsightedness.

I don't recall an equivalent. Durant is not. Its like Durant this offseason insisting GSW sign Iggy and Livingston to 15m+ mega deals long-term deals or he walks leading to them losing Klay and then Durant bailing for Boston next offseason.

Also keep in mind that he colluded with Pat Riley(while the league looked the other way as it benefited them) and Wade to join "South Beach". While our 2011 vanquishing of the Heat could not have possibly been sweeter, 2006 was an absolute travesty- with Riley and Wade being the chief benefactors while the league, at best, looked the other way. At worst the league and certain officials colluded to help decide the outcome. I will always despise Wade and his arrogance. And to a lesser extent, by proxy, LeBron- who enabled two more championships for the clown Wade(who has exactly 3 more than he deserves)

In summary: LeBron's one of the greatest ever to play the game. Fuck LeBron.

[tap2390]

If Lebron leaving a past-its-prime roster he helped assemble is bad, I definitely think KD leaving an in-prime championship caliber roster (they were up 3 to 1!) to join the best team in the league is fucking ridiculous.

I can understand the sentiment against Lebron. I don't understand giving a KD a pass. (Not saying anyone is this thread is doing that, just my opinion).

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by mac222b

He's a great basketball player- one of the best ever. You could agree with that but also think him a bandwagon jumping bitch who bails when the rosters - ones which he has an outsized hand assembling- collapse under the weight of their own baked-in shortsightedness.

You can think that, yes. But I think it's silly. "Bandwagon jumping bitch who bails..." Again, what is the more honorable alternative? Just stay in on the bad roster where there is virtually no chance of winning? Would that be less "bitchy?" I don't think so at all. I think it would be stubborn at best, outright stupid at worst.

The bit about him having an outsize hand in assembling said rosters is interesting. I think that's true today, but it wasn't for most of his career, and certainly doesn't tell the whole story. His first run in Cleveland, the franchise was just plain incompetent, and none of that whatsoever was his fault.

Miami- shortsighted? That's debatable. I think Lebron probably thought he would play out his career in Miami. The problem is, Wade and Bosh both started to break down prematurely. All three of them were from the same draft class and should have been in their primes (or maybe with Wade just beginning to exit his prime) and yet both Wade and Bosh looked much older than they were. Nobody could have predicted that. Shortsighted or no, what is not debatable is that it was a success- 4 years, 4 finals trips, and 2 championships... Can't argue with results.

Return to Cleveland- This one is more interesting. I think when Lebron came "home" he imagined that he would be surrounded by younger teammates that would eventually surpass him as he started to decline, and carry him into his twilight years- similar to Duncan or Kareem. It seemed like that was going to be the case, until last year when Kyrie, seemingly out of nowhere, demanded a trade. Perhaps Lebron was a shitty teammate who alienated Kyrie and pushed him away- we don't know. I think it's more likely Kyrie just couldn't handle being Robin anymore and wanted to go someplace where he could be Batman. Either way, I don't think it's anything Lebron could have predicted in 2014. Furthermore, even if we could have predicted Kyrie leaving, nobody could have seen the trade sending him away being such a disaster. Not only did IT4 turn out to be virtually worthless, so did- amazingly- Jae Crowder. So basically Cleveland gave up an arguably top 10 player for a draft pick. Unless they end up getting a legit superstar out of that Nets pick, I think that Cavs-Celtics trade goes down as one of the worst in history.

The thing however that I think Lebron legitimately can be criticized for is the way he only signs short-term deals, keeping his freedom to leave if he doesn't like the situation. It makes perfect sense from a selfish standpoint, but it has a terrible effect on the team because the team is always in "win now" mode, in order to keep him from leaving, so they have to mortage the future to put out the best team possible immediately, which- ironically- makes it more likely for him to bolt when the team is left with no trade assets, cap room, or young prospects.

[Harpospoke]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I understand the Lebron hate to some extent. When one player is more or less the face of the sport, it's really easy to hate that player, unless you are specifically a fan of that team. I hated Kobe. I hate Tom Brady. Those guys are easy to hate. And for many years, I hated Lebron too, just as a lot of people on this forum clearly do.

Also with Lebron he is just the worst at talking to the media. He says something in just about every interview that makes him look like an arrogant a-hole. He rarely smiles (when he does, he really does come off as likable)

But it is quite possible this is a product of him being the most scrutinized athlete in sports history who has pretty much been under constant attack since his rookie year. Those who claim it was "the decision" that caused it are forgetting that many were attacking him as a rookie onward. Him being on the cover of SI when he was in high school rubbed many the wrong way for some odd reason.

So if I was constantly being attacked....I might be pointing out every time I did something good too.

But I just have to admit it now. I love Lebron. I mean, I absolutely f*cking love Lebron. Why? Because at a time when the Mavs are completely irrelevant, Lebron alone has kept my interest in the NBA alive. Because he is not only the best player in the world, but he is so jaw-droppingly, mind-bogglingly great, that I honestly just feel privileged to watch him.

This playoffs alone, he has given us some absolutely classic memories. The buzzer beater in game 5 against the Pacers has rightfully been compared to Jordan's "the shot," and "Lebronto" will be remembered decades from now. Things like this are the reason I keep watching the NBA, when my home team doesn't give me much of a reason to.

That's how it's always been for me. I started watching the Mavs in the 80s. They finally got good, but in the meantime, my real joy was watching Magic Johnson play. The Lakers were my go-to team when the Mavs were not in the mix. (Man...the Mavs came SO close to beating them in 88)

Then of course MJ and Pippen were the reason to watch in the 90s when the Mavs were horrid. After that it was Shaq and Kobe.

But then came Lebron. He fit my taste more than the previous stars. He was more like Magic....a team first guy who actually LIKED to pass! How about that?? So very refreshing after all those years of hero ball. While others praised Allen Iverson and Vince Carter among all the other hero ball disciples, I held my nose.

To those who feel this way, let me ask, which team in the West should he or could have gone to in 2010 that would provide him with a better opportunity to win titles than Miami? Or Cleveland in 2014?

If the stronger teams are in the West, then there would be a long list of teams that would be an easier path than forming a new team in Miami or coming back to the Cavs.

Imagine if Lebron joined OKC in 2011 or in 2014 for instance. Adding Lebron to an already established team would be far easier than what he did. They would have reeled off a string of championships with Lebron in the mix. Had Lebron gone there in 2011 they probably never get rid of Harden and you know KD would have stayed. Or how about coming to the Mavs in 2011? Playing for a great coach for the first time with an established contender.

Pretty obvious why he chose to come back to the Cavs. That was all about the "loyalty" thing. The Cavs never made sense in a "easy path to a ring" sense.

Originally Posted by MavzMan

GS is arguably the best team of all time behind that Celtics that won like 11 championships. They literally have 4 starters that could carry their own team and 5th guy that regularly gets triple doubles. The West could be the toughest they've ever been in the history of the NBA and GS would still probably cruise to the Finals because they are just that damn good.

Well the Warriors would have to be the greatest team of all time to make the West look this bad over the years. They've been challenged just once in the West. And then they were taken to 6 games by the Cavs in the Finals with just Lebron left standing after Kyrie and Love were out. And of course that East team was the only team to beat them during this stretch too. There were great teams in the East in the early 80s, but they were challenged by other East teams...most notably Celtics/Sixers.

I'm taking the Warriors over the Rockets in 5 or 6 at most.

The Lebron hate stems almost entirely around The Decision and then joining super-friends. Worrying about team chemistry was very little an issue when the best player in the league joins Wade and Bosh who were both in their absolute prime. Then after that he joins/forces another duo in Kyrie Irving and KLove ... who ironically did have chemistry issues.

Chemistry was a BIG issue with the Heat forming their new team. We know this as Mavs fans because we saw it. Lebron obviously thought he was going to play the Magic Johnson role on that team while Wade and Bosh would be the Kareem/Worthy. That didn't work. Both Wade and Bosh disappeared in crunch time against the Mavs. Lebron learned from that and took over the scoring load the next season.

And Wade had had something like 3 knee surgeries by the time Lebron got to play with him so it wasn't really his "absolute prime". His real peak as a player was around 08-09.

Your logic is flawed in that you are assuming he believes he will lose every year in the finals. Do you not agree that a much easier path to the Finals gives him the best chance to win a championship? He is much less likely to face a team that just happens to get hot for a series and knock them out of the playoffs. In a super-star driven league, the biggest super-star of all can literally carry a team through a weaker conference for the first round or two.

If you aren't on the best team you will never win a championship unless you get lucky. You can get to the Finals every year and it won't matter. Ask Jerry West. Ask the Buffalo Bills.

So why would anyone go to an inferior team in the hopes that they might get lucky with injuries when you could just go to the best team and just win outright? That wouldn't make any sense at all.

Lebron should just go join the Rockets in the off season so everyone can see the difference.

Originally Posted by mac222b

LeBron choosing the best team available in the weaker conference has actually already paid off with a championship. Things happen- Steph injury, Draymond nut-punch. It was totally part of his calculus.

He's a great basketball player- one of the best ever. You could agree with that but also think him a bandwagon jumping bitch who bails when the rosters - ones which he has an outsized hand assembling- collapse under the weight of their own baked-in shortsightedness.

So that's the claim? That Lebron joined an inferior team hoping he would get lucky with injuries? That's the "easy way"? How do you guys talk yourself into this stuff?

And if Lebron has an "outsized hand in assembling" his teams...then that proves he plays for lousy organizations right there. How can a team possibly win anything if they let the star player run everything? You think the Bulls would have ever won if they let MJ run the team? That's another advantage MJ had over Lebron.

I don't recall an equivalent. Durant is not. Its like Durant this offseason insisting GSW sign Iggy and Livingston to 15m+ mega deals long-term deals or he walks leading to them losing Klay and then Durant bailing for Boston next offseason.

It's definitely true that the Warriors are a far better run team than the Cavs.

Also keep in mind that he colluded with Pat Riley(while the league looked the other way as it benefited them) and Wade to join "South Beach". While our 2011 vanquishing of the Heat could not have possibly been sweeter, 2006 was an absolute travesty- with Riley and Wade being the chief benefactors while the league, at best, looked the other way. At worst the league and certain officials colluded to help decide the outcome. I will always despise Wade and his arrogance. And to a lesser extent, by proxy, LeBron- who enabled two more championships for the clown Wade(who has exactly 3 more than he deserves)

We can agree on the Wade hate. Cant' stand him. He got handed a ring and MVP in 06 because the league and refs hated Cuban.

That's another one that bothers me about the Lebron hate. Even Mavs fans ignored that Wade choked so badly in 2011 in their zeal to "blame Lebron". Jeez man...that was the ultimate revenge for Mavs fans and most didn't even pay attention.

Not to mention that most Lebron haters try to paint the 2011 Mavs as a weak team that "Lebron should have beaten" (obviously believing one player wins rings). So the Mavs become the sacrificial lamb on the alter of Lebron hate.

No...the Mavs were a great team for a decade (2nd most wins in the 00s) and proved they were the best team during that entire 2011 playoff run.

Was beating the Heat impressive? Certainly. But not nearly as impressive as SWEEPING the 2 time defending champ Lakers. Now that was freaking impressive! Exactly zero ESPN "experts" picked the Mavs to win that series. http://www.espn.com/nba/playoffs/201...vericks-lakers

So much for "supposed to win"....the Mavs proved that wrong every time.

The Heat were in their first year together and weren't a real team. And it showed in the Finals. The Mavs had team chemistry, a better coach, 2 hall of famers playing at the top of their game, 6th man of the year runner-up, a better bench, and the defensive player of the year winner the following year. ...Oh...and the Mavs had the better coach by a mile too.

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The thing however that I think Lebron legitimately can be criticized for is the way he only signs short-term deals, keeping his freedom to leave if he doesn't like the situation. It makes perfect sense from a selfish standpoint, but it has a terrible effect on the team because the team is always in "win now" mode, in order to keep him from leaving, so they have to mortage the future to put out the best team possible immediately, which- ironically- makes it more likely for him to bolt when the team is left with no trade assets, cap room, or young prospects.

That's valid. But again probably a product of him being gun shy after wasting his first 7 years waiting for the Cavs to build a team around him. That's gotta make it scary to commit long term to a team.

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

Also with Lebron he is just the worst at talking to the media. He says something in just about every interview that makes him look like an arrogant a-hole. He rarely smiles (when he does, he really does come off as likable)

But it is quite possible this is a product of him being the most scrutinized athlete in sports history who has pretty much been under constant attack since his rookie year. Those who claim it was "the decision" that caused it are forgetting that many were attacking him as a rookie onward. Him being on the cover of SI when he was in high school rubbed many the wrong way for some odd reason.

So if I was constantly being attacked....I might be pointing out every time I did something good too.

Hes been dealing with the media for 20 years. You really think hes the worst and everything he says is arrogant? I mean maybe someone who irrationally hates him could spin that but for like 95% he's pretty solid and conscious with his words and knows how to deal with media and treats them well. He doesnt do the Popovich shit thats gotten so old but he gets away with it. Also, he's not a walmart greeter, he doesnt have to smile every interview for people to think hes a nice guy.

[Underdog]

@NateDuncanNBA: Who is the best player LeBron has defeated in the Eastern Conference playoffs?

[BPo001]

Originally Posted by Underdog

@NateDuncanNBA: Who is the best player LeBron has defeated in the Eastern Conference playoffs?

This year? I want to say Olidipio, but he had some dude. I feel like Valanciunas had some big games, but they got swept. This is why Lebron stays in the East. Inferior talent.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

@NateDuncanNBA: Who is the best player LeBron has defeated in the Eastern Conference playoffs?

This year? Or ever? This year, Oladipo. Ever, probably Derrick Rose during in his MVP year.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

If the stronger teams are in the West, then there would be a long list of teams that would be an easier path than forming a new team in Miami or coming back to the Cavs.

Imagine if Lebron joined OKC in 2011 or in 2014 for instance. Adding Lebron to an already established team would be far easier than what he did. They would have reeled off a string of championships with Lebron in the mix. Had Lebron gone there in 2011 they probably never get rid of Harden and you know KD would have stayed. Or how about coming to the Mavs in 2011? Playing for a great coach for the first time with an established contender.

Did OKC have cap room in the summer of 2010? That was a long time ago, but I don't remember ever hearing that they were players in that monster free agency class. I don't believe they were ever in the running for Lebron, nor was that ever a realistic option for him. I don't remember what their cap situation was in 2014 either, but I don't think OKC was in the market for a big name free agent, let alone the biggest name of all.

As far as the Mavs go, I've had this argument before- I'm sorry but playing with Wade and Bosh was always far, far more attractive prospect than playing with a 33 year old Dirk- whom incidentally was surrounded by the oldest supporting cast in the league. There's a reason the Mavs never attracted any marquee free agents, either before or after winning the championship. We Mavs fans hate to admit it, but playing with Dirk was never as attractive a prospect as we liked to think it was. The Mavs were NEVER in the running to get Lebron (or any other superstar free agent for that matter.)

If I remember correctly, NONE of the pre-established playoff contenders were ever really in the market for Lebron or any of the big-name free agents of that year- except maybe Chicago. The only teams I remember hearing as realistic possibilities for Lebron that year were Miami, New York, Chicago and of course Cleveland. Nobody else had cap room. Hence why that summer (easily the most hyped up in modern history) ended up being something of a bust, with Miami's superteam being the only real story, and most of the other big names stayed where they were- the one exception being New York, who got Amare Stoudemire as a consolation prize after failing to woo Lebron.

Pretty obvious why he chose to come back to the Cavs. That was all about the "loyalty" thing. The Cavs never made sense in a "easy path to a ring" sense.

I wouldn't say "easy" path, but I do think Cleveland was by far and away the best path to another title for him. I'm sure he did feel some sense of loyalty and the "coming home" narrative certainly was a feel-good story, but I also don't think there were any other better basketball options in 2014. In Cleveland he was coming to play with an emerging superstar in Kyrie Irving (who was only 22 years old at the time) along with Kevin Love whom the world still had only seen in Minnesota- and man, it is really easy to forget just how ridiculous Loves numbers were in Minnesota. He's only a fraction of the player with Cavs that he was with the Wolves. Lebron teaming up with a Kyrie and Minnesota-Love was seen by many people as not only the formation of a new superteam, but one way younger his Miami superteam. I don't remember any other pre-established contender being a more realistic possibility.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Underdog

@NateDuncanNBA: Who is the best player LeBron has defeated in the Eastern Conference playoffs?

Paul George? Best two-way guy. But yeah, no all-time greats.

I think its also important to remember: He did defeat some all-time greats in the Finals. But his margin for victory has been razor thin with a lot of luck thrown in.

OKC had all-time great cupcake Durant, young Westbrook and Harden who essentially soiled himself for the duration of the series. They were about to lose to SA before the bounce to Bosh and Ray Allen dagger. And against GSW they were down 3-1 and had the Draymond nutpunch and subsequent suspension and an obviously hobbled Steph who couldnt even blow by Kevin Love. So Lebron in the Finals has vanquished a green all-time great in Durant, an old and not near his prime Duncan and injured Steph. Three all time greats he's beaten, all with caveats.

He baited Draymond into the punch and then made a big show and whined endlessly after the game. And the NBA wanted the series to continue (echoes of 2006). A tainted (no pun intended!) win.

Also, lets not forget the inevitable revelations that Lebron and Wade were taking every manner of performance enhancing substances, many of which we haven't even heard of yet.

I laugh every time the announcers gush and marvel at his strength, speed, durability. "Its almost like its superhuman!" It is. The best superhuman powers money can buy.

[MavzMan]

For me, it's 2 things that determine my level is distaste for Lebron while at the same time oo-ing and ah-ing over his playmaking.

1. The players colluded together and informed Pat Riley before-hand to make cap room. However, technically the players talking amongst themselves is not against the rules as far as I know. But it's still pretty shady when they bring Pat Riley in on the plan and tell him to have enough money to sign all of them. This and then pretending not to know ahead of time for The Decision was just stupid. It just reeks of bad politic lobbying. It's not illegal, but it's still pretty damn shady.

2. Lebron played the "hometown" card in coming back to Cleveland. It honestly makes me still root for Cleveland just so that their fans get their local player to carry them to multiple championships. Again, in my opinion, if Lebron leaves now, then the entire "Coming Home" slogan was nothing more than him being able to force the Wiggins/KLove trade and get his 2nd super team trio resulting in the easiest path to the finals.

3. I know I said 2, but my third thing is the The Cough when him and Wade fake coughed to make fun of Dirk being sick in the finals. I do believe Wade was the instigator of this because I can totally see him having the maturity of a high school student, but still, Lebron coughed as well.

Honestly, other than that, I'm perfectly fine with watching him win championships now that he is gone from Wade and the Heat. I do love his play. I do bitch about refs giving him calls or not calling things against him ... that was TOTALLY a travel on the behind the backboard shot last series. But it is what it is and he's the biggest super star in the entire league. I expect CLE to beat but not sweep BOS in the ECF and then meet up with GSW again in the Finals. At that point, I give CLE one game while KD gets another ring before possibly riding off into the green color of money pastures.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by mac222b

So Lebron in the Finals has vanquished a green all-time great in Durant, an old and not near his prime Duncan and injured Steph. Three all time greats he's beaten, all with caveats.

This is what makes 2011 so magnificent. Dirk beat "better" teams every single round while they were in their prime.

Originally Posted by mac222b

Also, lets not forget the inevitable revelations that Lebron and Wade were taking every manner of performance enhancing substances, many of which we haven't even heard of yet.

I laugh every time the announcers gush and marvel at his strength, speed, durability. "Its almost like its superhuman!" It is. The best superhuman powers money can buy.

Do you have any links to back this up? I believe this also just based on photos, but are there any rumors or articles actually published?

[Melonhead]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Paul George? Best two-way guy. But yeah, no all-time greats.

I think its also important to remember: He did defeat some all-time greats in the Finals. But his margin for victory has been razor thin with a lot of luck thrown in.

OKC had all-time great cupcake Durant, young Westbrook and Harden who essentially soiled himself for the duration of the series. They were about to lose to SA before the bounce to Bosh and Ray Allen dagger. And against GSW they were down 3-1 and had the Draymond nutpunch and subsequent suspension and an obviously hobbled Steph who couldnt even blow by Kevin Love. So Lebron in the Finals has vanquished a green all-time great in Durant, an old and not near his prime Duncan and injured Steph. Three all time greats he's beaten, all with caveats.

He baited Draymond into the punch and then made a big show and whined endlessly after the game. And the NBA wanted the series to continue (echoes of 2006). A tainted (no pun intended!) win.

Also, lets not forget the inevitable revelations that Lebron and Wade were taking every manner of performance enhancing substances, many of which we haven't even heard of yet.

I laugh every time the announcers gush and marvel at his strength, speed, durability. "Its almost like its superhuman!" It is. The best superhuman powers money can buy.

I wouldnt be shocked if something came out one day, to be breaking your own career records in year 15 is amazing. The last 2 weeks is up there for the best stretch of his career. Im still enjoying watching the hell out of his greatness while it lasts.

[Harpospoke]

Originally Posted by Melonhead

Hes been dealing with the media for 20 years. You really think hes the worst and everything he says is arrogant? I mean maybe someone who irrationally hates him could spin that but for like 95% he's pretty solid and conscious with his words and knows how to deal with media and treats them well. He doesnt do the Popovich shit thats gotten so old but he gets away with it. Also, he's not a walmart greeter, he doesnt have to smile every interview for people to think hes a nice guy.

Not "everything he says". But I'm pretty sure in every interview he gives, he'll say something that can sound arrogant. Even his post game interview after the win against the Warriors in 2016 contained the "I gave everything I had" line. I mean...we knew that.

As I said, this all could be a reaction to him being the most criticized athlete in history.

Originally Posted by Underdog

@NateDuncanNBA: Who is the best player LeBron has defeated in the Eastern Conference playoffs?

Whoa! They have a 1 on 1 playoff now? What network carries that one? I would love to see Lebron play 1 on 1 against other players!

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Did OKC have cap room in the summer of 2010? That was a long time ago, but I don't remember ever hearing that they were players in that monster free agency class. I don't believe they were ever in the running for Lebron, nor was that ever a realistic option for him. I don't remember what their cap situation was in 2014 either, but I don't think OKC was in the market for a big name free agent, let alone the biggest name of all.

That's not a problem if Lebron wanted the "easy path". He could just sign for the league minimum. Every team in the league would take that meeting with Lebron. All he had to do was call them.

As far as the Mavs go, I've had this argument before- I'm sorry but playing with Wade and Bosh was always far, far more attractive prospect than playing with a 33 year old Dirk- whom incidentally was surrounded by the oldest supporting cast in the league. There's a reason the Mavs never attracted any marquee free agents, either before or after winning the championship. We Mavs fans hate to admit it, but playing with Dirk was never as attractive a prospect as we liked to think it was. The Mavs were NEVER in the running to get Lebron (or any other superstar free agent for that matter.)

Something is going on with the Mavs and it's not "Dirk was old". As you pointed out, that FA problem was going on a long time before Dirk got old.

My theory is that it's racial. The Mavs are perceived (I'll stress that word please) as a "white man's team" going all the way back to the 80s with Don Carter and his cowboy hat (it was even on the logo), the team's obvious desire to copy the Celtics (green unis....drafting every white player they could). And if you ever watch those documentaries about Magic and Bird and Celtics/Lakers, you'll see that black players and fans hated the Celtics for that reason back in the 80s. So that was a real thing.

Since then, the Mavs have added to the perception with Dirk and Nash being so prominent. Brad Davis number retired. And they threw all that money at Chandler Parsons...a white player of course. ....And then immediately started talking about him being a "mini GM" and hinting that he was destined for the front office.

I get that most of this is just coincidence and happenstance, but that perception is certainly real. Almost none of my black friends root for the Mavs. It's just like black basketball fans in Boston in the 80s.

Now add in the perception (again stressing that word) that Dallas is a "conservative city". That translates to "racist city" in the minds of some. It's complete horse crap, but that is the perception.

If I remember correctly, NONE of the pre-established playoff contenders were ever really in the market for Lebron or any of the big-name free agents of that year- except maybe Chicago. The only teams I remember hearing as realistic possibilities for Lebron that year were Miami, New York, Chicago and of course Cleveland. Nobody else had cap room. Hence why that summer (easily the most hyped up in modern history) ended up being something of a bust, with Miami's superteam being the only real story, and most of the other big names stayed where they were- the one exception being New York, who got Amare Stoudemire as a consolation prize after failing to woo Lebron.

Again, if you want the "easy path"...you call them up and take a small contract to make it work. It's not hard to figure out at all. Every team would welcome Lebron with open arms.

I wouldn't say "easy" path, but I do think Cleveland was by far and away the best path to another title for him. I'm sure he did feel some sense of loyalty and the "coming home" narrative certainly was a feel-good story, but I also don't think there were any other better basketball options in 2014. In Cleveland he was coming to play with an emerging superstar in Kyrie Irving (who was only 22 years old at the time) along with Kevin Love whom the world still had only seen in Minnesota- and man, it is really easy to forget just how ridiculous Loves numbers were in Minnesota. He's only a fraction of the player with Cavs that he was with the Wolves. Lebron teaming up with a Kyrie and Minnesota-Love was seen by many people as not only the formation of a new superteam, but one way younger his Miami superteam. I don't remember any other pre-established contender being a more realistic possibility.

That's still putting together a new team with no idea if it will work (and we now know Love was overrated and Kyrie has injury issues and delusions of grandeur).....for an organization that he actually knew was terrible at putting together good teams. That wasn't even guesswork. Lebron already knew from experience how bad the Cavs are at running a team.

It was one of the worst places he could have gone if he was looking for an "easy path". Since he got there, that team has consistently been one of the worst teams in the league any time Lebron took a seat on the bench.

Originally Posted by mac222b

Paul George? Best two-way guy. But yeah, no all-time greats.

I think its also important to remember: He did defeat some all-time greats in the Finals. But his margin for victory has been razor thin with a lot of luck thrown in.

OKC had all-time great cupcake Durant, young Westbrook and Harden who essentially soiled himself for the duration of the series. They were about to lose to SA before the bounce to Bosh and Ray Allen dagger. And against GSW they were down 3-1 and had the Draymond nutpunch and subsequent suspension and an obviously hobbled Steph who couldnt even blow by Kevin Love. So Lebron in the Finals has vanquished a green all-time great in Durant, an old and not near his prime Duncan and injured Steph. Three all time greats he's beaten, all with caveats.

He baited Draymond into the punch and then made a big show and whined endlessly after the game. And the NBA wanted the series to continue (echoes of 2006). A tainted (no pun intended!) win.

Also, lets not forget the inevitable revelations that Lebron and Wade were taking every manner of performance enhancing substances, many of which we haven't even heard of yet.

I laugh every time the announcers gush and marvel at his strength, speed, durability. "Its almost like its superhuman!" It is. The best superhuman powers money can buy.

Boy that's a lot of negative spin! Is that you, Skip Bayless?

The first problem of course is the idea that Lebron was ever playing against anyone 1 on 1. We are talking about a team sport. "Names" don't win anything (OKC just found that out).

Every team that wins a title has things go their way. You think the 90s Bulls would have won 6 rings in the 80s with the Lakers, Celtics, Sixers, and Pistons in their primes? How about the Lakers losing to the Pistons when Magic and Scott got hurt? How about the Lakers losing to the Bulls when Worthy and Scott got hurt? I guess it's ok that Magic was out of his prime when it's MJ, right? And how about the Pistons fading when the Bulls finally beat them?

Anyone ever notice how many times the Warriors played teams with key injuries in the playoffs? The Cavs lost Kyrie and Love in 2015 and still took them to 6 games....does Lebron get credit for that? Kinda sounds like the Cavs would have won that series if those two guys were playing. (or maybe not...Love doesn't play well in the Finals usually)

You can make that case for every team that wins a ring. Things have to fall your way.

[Harpospoke]

Another detail about Lebron "signing 1 year deals". After they won the championship, he signed a 2 year deal. The instant he didn't have freedom, the Cavs fired the GM just as they were trying to get Paul George and traded away Kyrie against Lebron's wishes. Lebron has only signed three 1 year deals in his 15 year career.

Man, I would leave skid marks leaving the Cavs this summer if I was Lebron. The Cavs are horrible at this.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

Whoa! They have a 1 on 1 playoff now? What network carries that one? I would love to see Lebron play 1 on 1 against other players!

Basketball is less of a team sport than most, that's why you don't see squads without a top-10 player winning championships... Aside from the 2004 Pistons, every single team to win a ring since Jordan retired had either LeBron, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Pierce, or Dirk on the roster... And we can take this exercise back further if you want: Jordan, Olajuwon, Isiah, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Dr. J -- all but one championship squad in the 38 years that the Mavericks have existed as a franchise had one of those 14 players leading them... A single superstar can make a HUGE impact when each team only has 5 guys on the floor at a time. This isn't football.

The fact that LeBron rarely has to go through the best players in the league is relevant... Especially if you're comparing him to Michael Jordan, who defeated the following Hall of Famers in the Finals alone: Magic Johnson, James Worthy, Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, and John Stockton... And then there's the HoFers he had to beat to even get to the Finals: 76ers Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Shaquille O'Neal, Dominique Wilkins, and Alonzo Mourning... All those names in just 6 trips, several defeated multiple times.

So who's the best player LeBron beat, again?

Downplay the importance of superstar competition all you want, but NBA history does not regard your opinion.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by Underdog

A single superstar can make a HUGE impact when each team only has 5 guys on the floor at a time. This isn't football.

This is why it's critical for our draft pick this year. You do NOT win in this league without a superstar. Period. The Cleveland/Toronto series over the last year is a perfect example.

Originally Posted by Underdog

So who's the best player LeBron beat, again?

Downplay the importance of superstar competition all you want, but NBA history does not regard your opinion.

This year against the Celtics would have been very interesting given their star player Kyrie, a really good team and amazing coach. But once again, the road to the actual Finals is pretty much paved for him even with arguably the worst team he has had to play with for his entire career.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Harpospoke

That's not a problem if Lebron wanted the "easy path". He could just sign for the league minimum. Every team in the league would take that meeting with Lebron. All he had to do was call them.

Dude.. come on. That's so insanely ridiculous, I honestly don't even know how to respond.

Something is going on with the Mavs and it's not "Dirk was old". As you pointed out, that FA problem was going on a long time before Dirk got old.

Uh yeah, they never had cap room...

My theory is that it's racial. The Mavs are perceived (I'll stress that word please) as a "white man's team" going all the way back to the 80s with Don Carter and his cowboy hat (it was even on the logo), the team's obvious desire to copy the Celtics (green unis....drafting every white player they could). And if you ever watch those documentaries about Magic and Bird and Celtics/Lakers, you'll see that black players and fans hated the Celtics for that reason back in the 80s. So that was a real thing.

Since then, the Mavs have added to the perception with Dirk and Nash being so prominent. Brad Davis number retired. And they threw all that money at Chandler Parsons...a white player of course. ....And then immediately started talking about him being a "mini GM" and hinting that he was destined for the front office.

I get that most of this is just coincidence and happenstance, but that perception is certainly real. Almost none of my black friends root for the Mavs. It's just like black basketball fans in Boston in the 80s.

Now add in the perception (again stressing that word) that Dallas is a "conservative city". That translates to "racist city" in the minds of some. It's complete horse crap, but that is the perception.

You're in full blown conspiracy land now, and it's ridiculous. You think Lebron (or any other player for that matter) chose not to sign with Dallas, because they think Dallas is a racist city?????? That is INSANE. If you really want to make that argument, I defy you to show me one quote, or one report, about ANY NBA player EVER saying they chose not to sign with Dallas for that reason.

Dallas has never been an attractive destination for free agents, but I can assure you Dallas being perceived as a racist city has absolutely nothing to do with it. For pretty much all of the 2000s, the team had one of the highest payrolls in the league and very few trade assets to work a sign-and-trade. In the 2010s, Dirk and the rest of the entire team was old.

Again, if you want the "easy path"...you call them up and take a small contract to make it work. It's not hard to figure out at all. Every team would welcome Lebron with open arms.

Once again, that is flat out INSANE. You seriously think Lebron f*cking James, or ANY legit star would EVER even consider doing that????? Guys have taken pay cuts before to help their team- usually in the latter stages of their careers when they have already won a ring or two. But no superstar in the history of the NBA has EVER signed for a "small" contract, let a lone for the league minimum, let alone in the prime of their careers. You apparently have no idea how athletes think. They want to win, but they want to get paid too.

That's still putting together a new team with no idea if it will work (and we now know Love was overrated and Kyrie has injury issues and delusions of grandeur).....for an organization that he actually knew was terrible at putting together good teams. That wasn't even guesswork. Lebron already knew from experience how bad the Cavs are at running a team.

It was one of the worst places he could have gone if he was looking for an "easy path". Since he got there, that team has consistently been one of the worst teams in the league any time Lebron took a seat on the bench.

There was never any perfect situation for him to land in. Certainly nothing was ever going to be "easy." But it was pretty obvious then that Cleveland was the BEST option for him. His options were severely limited anyway. It was always either going to be coming back to Cleveland or staying in Miami. Knowing that it was really down to those two, Cleveland was BY FAR the better option.

If you really don't believe me, then I defy you to name me the other team(s) that he could have signed with that would have provided an "easy" path to a title- BARRING THIS RIDICULOUS IDEA OF LEBRON SIGNING FOR THE MINIMUM. Even now in 2018, Lebron has made it clear that he is not playing for less than the maximum and won't even entertain the idea of taking a paycut. So knowing that, this is the challenge- name the other teams in 2010 or 2014 that had CAP ROOM to take on a max contract, that would have provided a better path to a title for him than Miami or Cleveland.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by Underdog

Downplay the importance of superstar competition all you want, but NBA history does not regard your opinion.

Honestly man, I don't think NBA history regards your opinion in this matter at all. If it did, Magic would be a lot lower on the list of all-time greats because his competition in the West was as weak as Lebron's is in the East. And frankly, MJ's would be lower because the competition in 90s was significantly weaker than it had been in the 80s- and certainly nowhere near what it is right now. Honestly I'd argue that the league is more talented, and it's harder to win a title right now than at any other point in history. Will anyone consider that when Lebron hangs it up? Almost certainly not.

History really only cares about how many titles you won. It gives less than a sh*t who you won against.

But just for argument's sake, in the finals Lebron has beaten Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, Tim Duncan, Kawhi Leonard, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, and Steph Curry- the same Steph Curry who had by 2016 effectively eclipsed Lebron as the face of the NBA, and was widely considered to be the best player in the league- that is until Lebron flat-out humiliated him in maybe the biggest star-vs-star beatdown I've ever seen. Seriously, the only other example I can compare it to is when David Robinson won the MVP, only to have Hakeem completely own him in the WCF.

Simply put, Lebron's competition has been more than good enough. Let's also factor the many, many times Lebron has had to drag a clearly inferior team over the line against an an obviously better team. That's something I don't recall MJ ever having to do even once in his career.

I'd also like to once again point out that us even having this argument is a testament to Lebron's greatness. The only way his detractors can knock his legacy now is by saying that he's not as great as MICHAEL FREAKING JORDAN.

Again, for my money, MJ is the best that has ever or WILL ever play this game. The game and the landscape of the league is such now that I don't believe we will ever again see one individual dominate the sport the way MJ did. It's been a while, so it's easy to forget just how much MJ transcended the NBA. I honestly think that in the 90s, MJ wasn't just the most famous athlete in the world- he was the most famous man in the world. And nobody, not Lebron, Kobe, Shaq, Magic, Larry, Kareem, Russell, or even Wilt, so individually dominated the sport that through his entire reign there was never ANY question that he was so easily the best player in the world, and everyone else was competing for a VERY distant second place. That is what Michael Jordan did, and I don't think we will ever see it again.

So no, to me, Lebron is not quite as great as MJ. BUT... it's not nearly as lopsided as Lebron's haters would like to think. In fact, I'd say it's pretty close.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The only way his detractors can knock his legacy now is by saying that he's not as great as MICHAEL FREAKING JORDAN.

See, though, that's literally the only debate we're having here... Not that LeBron James isn't great, just that's he's not as great as Michael Jordan. That's why there's a million caveats to this discussion. Because if we were debating LeBron versus anyone else it wouldn't be much of a debate.