Could we possibly get Pierce?

[AxdemxO]

I heard today tht Chicago and Boston are close to reaching a deal tht would send Pierce to Chicago for Gordon and Thomas.
Or Pierce,Davis, and Blount for Gordon,Thomas , and unprotected first round pick(or somethin like tht).
So are chances now dont look too good.

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I heard today tht Chicago and Boston are close to reaching a deal tht would send Pierce to Chicago for Gordon and Thomas.
Or Pierce,Davis, and Blount for Gordon,Thomas , and unprotected first round pick(or somethin like tht).
So are chances now dont look too good.

tim thomas? this trade makes absolutely no sense for the celtics and they could do much better than that.

if i were little nellie i would be on the phone offering howard and van horn for pierce.

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by aexchange

tim thomas? this trade makes absolutely no sense for the celtics and they could do much better than that.

if i were little nellie i would be on the phone offering howard and van horn for pierce.

Van Horn yes. Howard no.

[AxdemxO]

I was thinkin tht we could give them something better but idk..i heard that a deal was very close with Chicago.
Thomas's contract expires after this season i guess.
but tht second scenerio is worse because they give up Davis too and i really like Davis.
So i guess some1 should be on the fone.

[V2M]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Van Horn yes. Howard no.

To me, Josh and Van Horn for Pierce is a no-brainer!

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Van Horn yes. Howard no.

somebody has been drinking the howard kool aid too much. step slowly away from the bowl.

howard for pierce is such a no brainer, its even laughable to suggest otherwise.

pierce is a significantly better scorer, rebounder, defender, passer, decision maker, and 2nd option to dirk.

[Dirkenstien]

Sorry but the only way I would trade for Pierce is if I knew that after making the trade Josh, Dirk, and Pierce would all be playing beside each other.

Otherwise I just don't think it's worth the risk of breaking up the chemistry we have going now.

[Dirkenstien]

Tonight's line for Howard:
PTS: 29 points on 11-17
REB: 6
STL: 1
AST: 2
No Turnovers.

Howard is only getting better and is about three years younger than Pierce.

Van Horn also had a great line tonight.

Sorry, but like I said, Van Horn and Howard for Pierce isn't worth it. If we made a trade for Pierce it would be wise to not break up the chemistry between Howard and Dirk.

Additionally, as I stated earlier, Van Horn is expendable, however.

[jayC]

Yeah but to suggest that Howard would ever be Paul Pierce is ludicrous. Pierce is shooting 50 percent from the field. It begs the question who would put the mavs over the top. Paul Pierce or Ron Artest if you had one move to make which one would it be?

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by jayC

Yeah but to suggest that Howard would ever be Paul Pierce is ludicrous. Pierce is shooting 50 percent from the field. It begs the question who would put the mavs over the top. Paul Pierce or Ron Artest if you had one move to make which one would it be?

Yes, suggesting that Howard could cosistently put up Pierce like statistics could be a bit optimistic considering his role to this team and the Mavericks current style of play. However, tonight he scored 29 points in 29 minutes so we certainly cannot rule out the possibility that, if given the opportunity, Howard could flourish.

I'm simply stating that while trading Howard for Pierce is clearly an upgrade, it is not enough of an upgrade to risk destroying the type of chemistry this team is playing with.

On the other hand, I do believe we could trade other pieces that have a lesser impact on the overall performance of the team (KVH, Daniels, etc.) and make ample strides of improvement while not risking much in terms of team chemistry. This makes for an ideal scenario in which I would comfortably and confidently pull the trigger on a potential trade.

[JetFutofMavs]

Originally Posted by Ninkobei

I say no to the trade simply because of chemistry. The team is just now, after over a year, starting to come together. Dirk is getting comfortable with his teammates. No telling if this will happen again. A guy can only take so much turnover on a team before he stops trying (to create chemistry). You people are proposing a trade on a team that has nothing wrong with it. and for that I bid shame on you!

Encore! Encore!

[V2M]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

Tonight's line for Howard:
PTS: 29 points on 11-17
REB: 6
STL: 1
AST: 2
No Turnovers.

Howard is only getting better and is about three years younger than Pierce.

Van Horn also had a great line tonight.

Sorry, but like I said, Van Horn and Howard for Pierce isn't worth it. If we made a trade for Pierce it would be wise to not break up the chemistry between Howard and Dirk.

Additionally, as I stated earlier, Van Horn is expendable, however.

That was a good game by Josh. But I hope you realize that this was only 1 game (a very small sample to go by!) and it was against a team playing without Richard Jefferson (their 2nd leading scorer), and playing on the 2nd night of a back-to-back, on the road.

Since you brought up stats, please see below for Paul Pierce's season averages:

PTS: 26.2 (49.1% FG and 39.8% 3PT)
REB: 7.5
AST: 4.7
STL: 1.3

And he does this when he's the primary focus of every opposing team. He gets doubled almost every other possession just as much as our own Dirk.

I agree with the chemistry angle if the talent levels are more or less equal. But if it's about trading a player who's not even in the top 50 in the league for someone who's arguably a Top 10 player this year, I'll just pull the trigger and then worry about chemistry later.

Can you imagine how terrorized the rest of the league would be to play against this lineup:

Terry/Harris
Daniels/Stack
Pierce/Griffin
Dirk/Powell
Diop/Damp/DJ

Pierce, unlike Artest, has proven this year that he's a leader who cares about his team. He plays good defense and can make clutch shots from anywhere on the floor (almost Bryantesque!). If he's available, I think we should everything possible to grab him. If for no other reason, just to prevent him from going to a competing WC team, which is what most likely Ainge is gonna' do if he ever trades him.

[Dirkenstien]

I understand where you're coming from V2M but I'd hate to see Howard go.

[JetFutofMavs]

"Pierce, unlike Artest, has proven this year that he's a leader who cares about his team." (insert Stack here)

Instead of trading Howard, who has proven to be a crucial part of our defense this season, why not trade ball-hog Stackhouse and Dampier for Pierce...Sorry Damp; nice guy.


Now THAT'S a good trade.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by JetFutofMavs

"Pierce, unlike Artest, has proven this year that he's a leader who cares about his team." (insert Stack here)

Instead of trading Howard, who has proven to be a crucial part of our defense this season, why not trade ball-hog Stackhouse and Dampier for Pierce...Sorry Damp; nice guy.


Now THAT'S a good trade.

First of all, Howard hasn't proven sh*t on defense. And second, why the f*ck would Boston trade their franchise player, let alone for Jerry Stackhouse and Erick Dampier?

[V2M]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

I understand where you're coming from V2M but I'd hate to see Howard go.

I hate to see him go too... except under a scenario where we could get a bonafide superstar back!

[Dirkenstien]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

First of all, Howard hasn't proven sh*t on defense. And second, why the f*ck would Boston trade their franchise player, let alone for Jerry Stackhouse and Erick Dampier?

I believe JetFutofMavs is trying to say that we shouldn't make any trade.

And I certainly beg to differ in regards to your statement that Howard has not proven to be a key ingredient to our improved defensive play.

[JetFutofMavs]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

I would do KVH, Terry, and Daniels for Paul Pierce and Raef in a new york second.

Raef can play the 4 or 5, could be the primary back up for Dirk, and does a lot of the same things KVH does except with more shot blocking ability and a little less athleticism. Along with that we get Pierce who solidifies our defensive lineup and can take some of the pressure off of Dirk on offense.

Our lineup would look like this:
Dampier/ Diop/ Lafrentz
Dirk/ Lafrentz
J.Howard/ Stackhouse/ Powell
Pierce/ Stackhouse/
Harris/ Armstrong

That looks like championship material to me.

Whoever considers taking Terry from the Mavericks is crazy; just plain crazy. Actually 'watch' the games people?!

[JetFutofMavs]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

First of all, Howard hasn't proven sh*t on defense.

Josh Howard last night:

REB: 11
ST: 2
BLKS: 1
TO: 0

I would call that defense...as far as proving feces, I'm not too sure about that one...To say Howard does nothing for our defense is pure ignorance.

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by JetFutofMavs

Josh Howard last night:

REB: 11
ST: 2
BLKS: 1
TO: 0

I would call that defense...as far as proving feces, I'm not too sure about that one...To say Howard does nothing for our defense is pure ignorance.

call me ignorant then. howard is the most overrated defender in mavs history. i could name 20 SF's who would be better fits here than howard is.

[Dirkenstien]

Howard is a very important key to the Mavericks' overall defensive play. Not to mention he has what appears to be a supernatural ability to slide in between the cracks and grab tough rebounds from the big boys down low. He plays with heart on both sides of the court and is the best defender this Mavericks organization has.

---"i could name 20 SF's who would be better fits here than howard is."---

I am baffled as to how you could make that claim but I'll ask you to fulfill your proposition nevertheless. Name em off Aexchange, although I do hope you choose to use more than statistics to prove your point since it is obvious that defensive capability cannot be measured in statistics alone (A la Bruce Bowen)

[alby]

he's overrated on this board, without a doubt.. but he still is a decent player
nowhere near paul pierce though

any deal must involve one our youngns (devin, quis, or howard) and an expirer (KVH)

[aexchange]

Originally Posted by Dirkenstien

I am baffled as to how you could make that claim but I'll ask you to fulfill your proposition nevertheless. Name em off Aexchange, although I do hope you choose to use more than statistics to prove your point since it is obvious that defensive capability cannot be measured in statistics alone (A la Bruce Bowen)

This is pretty easy. In no particular order, SF's/Swing players who are better fits for the Mavs than Josh Howard
1. Lebron James
2. Tracy McGrady
3. Paul Pierce
4. Tayshaun Prince
5. Andrei Kirilenko
6. Shane Battier
7. Ron Artest
8. Corey Maggette
9. Gerald Wallace
10. Richard Jefferson
11. Andre Iguodala
12. Wally World
13. Carmelo Anthony
14. Rashard Lewis
15. Shawn Marion
16. Luol Deng

I'd also argue that James Posey, Caron Butler, Bruce Bowen, Darius Miles, and Mike Miller could all be slotted into Howard's spot without much of a drop off. So I could only name 16, I'd consider better than Howard, and 5 additional players I would rank as being slightly poorer to a push with Howard's contributions to the Mavs.

Thats 21. Listen, I like Howard as much as the next guy. He's long, lanky, and athletic. That being said, his perimeter defense is average at the VERY best, and on most nights against above average 2's, he can't stop any kind of perimeter penetration. He's OK for what he is, but I certainly dont consider him an untouchable, and to top it off, he doesn't even make my top 15 of SF's. He's OK, but to say you wouldn't trade for Pierce if Howard had to be included in the trade is so laughable I don't even know where to begin.

Pierce is the better rebounder, distributor, defender, scorer, perimeter shooter, FT shooter, clutch player, and has better athletcism than JHo. Pierce >>>>> Howard.

Edited to add that I also forgot to mention Vince Carter and Lamar Odom, both of whom play the 3 and are superior players to Howard, although not necessarily a better fit. However, I guess you could say Lewis and Anthony also fall into this category.

[Dirkenstien]

Yes those are all very good players, I can't disagree with you there, however, I don't believe all of those players could provide the Mavericks with what Howard does on a nightly basis. That is: gritty defense, a willingness to sacrifice his body, great off the ball shot blocking capabilities, and the ability to get the important rebound.

Nonetheless, I respect your opinion and suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. With that being said, I look forward to watching Howard continue to progress and for this Mavericks team to kick some tail.

Go Mavs.

[jayC]

Paul Pierce 25.4 points 7.7 rebounds and 4.7 assists per game. He also had 1.33 steals per game. Pierce also shoots 48.5 percent from the field. Pierce plays four minutes per game more than Jho. Pierce also has .44 bpg.

Jho shoots 45.4 percent per game. 15.5 points per game 6.8 rebounds per game and 1.9 assists per game. He also has 1.25 steals per game. He has .44 bpg. I just don't remember Jho having a big block shot.

Pierce beats him in every statistical category. Pierce is every bit the defender that Jho is. I don't see how you can say that Pierce can't get that tough rebound when he averages 8.5 rebounds per game. He has more steals per game than Pierce.

Mike Miller averages 13.2 points per game and 5.9 rebounds per game. He averages .73 steals per game and .3 bspg. Howard bests him in every category except three point shooting Miller hits 41.7 percent from the field. JHO is a better all-around player than Mike Miller.

Battier averages 11.2 ppg 4.9 rbpg and 1.20 steals per game. Battier shoots 50.4 percent from the field and 41.9 percent from three. Battier is the better three point shoote. Howard is the more athletic player with more upside. Howard is the better rebounder. Battier averages 1.15 bpg very impressive for a two guard/small forward. Verdict even.

Tayshaun and Howard are very similar.
Tayshaun averages 12.5 ppg and 4.5 rebounds per game. Prince averages more assists per game at 2.3. He shoots 45 percent slightly worse than Howard. They both shoot around 35 percent from three. Very similar players both physically and by the numbers.

I will give you that Melo, AK 47, and Ron Artest are better than Howard. Maybe Andre Iguodala just because of his athletisim is greater than Howard.

I would take a clear upgrade over Howard, but not a slight one. Lebron, T-Mac, Carmelo, Rashard Lewis, Richard Jefferson and AK47. Maybe I would take Maggette.

I would lump Howard somewhere after Rashard Lewis and Richard Jefferson.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by JetFutofMavs

Josh Howard last night:

REB: 11
ST: 2
BLKS: 1
TO: 0

I would call that defense...as far as proving feces, I'm not too sure about that one...To say Howard does nothing for our defense is pure ignorance.

Rebounds? Not a defensive stat by any stretch of the imagination. Antoine Walker is a good rebounder, you think he's a good defender? Steals? A defensive stat, yes, but that also has nothing to do with being a good defender. Steals are just about playing the passing lanes, nothing to do whatsoever with man-to-man defense. LeBron gets a lot of steals, despite the fact that he's not a great defensive player. Blocks? Again, a defensive stat, but getting a lot of blocks (much less one block) does not make you a good defensive player. There are quite a few players in this league who are excellent shot blockers, but not great defensive players, and vice-versa.

And I never said he doesn't do anything for our defense. I said he hasn't proven sh*t. And he hasn't. I love Josh. He's my second favorite Mav, and I think he's our second best player. But at least on this board and in the local media, he's terribly overrated when it comes to defense. Really, I might even say Dirk is as good as Howard is defensively. Which is to say, slightly above average, but nothing to rave about. You could replace him with any number of players at the 3 and not lose anything or even gain something on the defensive end.

That being said, I love Josh Howard and hope to see him in a Maverick uniform until he retires.

[sike]

no pierce.

[jayC]

I would love to see Pierce in a mavs uniform. I take results over all-star potential any day of the week
This is from ESPN insider John Hollinger's recent chat:
I doubt Kandi's contract will get you much. Remember, he can only be traded in a one-for-one deal between now and the deadline.

As for the Celtics, I've wondered since the moment I heard about this deal if it meant Pierce would be traded. The way Boston is set up right now they're forced to use Pierce as their stopper on the wings against the Wades, Hamiltons and Jameses of the world, and I don't think that will fly. That has me wondering if a Pierce trade is the next move on Danny's agenda.

[babbler]

I have no doubt that Pierce would put us way over the top.
trade idea:

kvh and jet for pierce, raef and deltone west.

i like it coz raef directly replaces kvh. west is a capable point guard who can split minutes with harris. pierce is a superstar. not many teams can have 2 superstars and still surround them with the talent that we could.

projected lineup

damp/diop
dirk/raef
howard/griffin
pierce/daniels/stack
harris/west

do you think that boston would do this.

[Just211]

no

[Just211]

i wouldn't be throwing Terry in anyways. he's too clutch in the 4th, plus i'd like to see him in the playoofs again

[Drbio]

This thread hasn't died from futility yet?

[jayC]

No we are just so happy to spread crap trade rumors.