Is Jason Kidd a top 50 Player in the NBA? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

StackAttack · 09-16-2008, 05:22 PM

Without really thinking about it, I'd say "Yes" right away. But I've been following Fanhouse's NBA Top 50 feature, and it doesn't look like Kidd's going to make the cut. Granted, only Nos. 50-22 have been revealed, but I doubt anyone, even here, is going to rank Kidd above the likes of Melo.

The list to date:

22. Carmelo Anthony, Denver
23. Kevin Martin, Sacramento
24. Andrew Bynum, L.A. Lakers
25. Tony Parker, San Antonio

26. Caron Butler, Washington
27. David West, New Orleans
28. Allen Iverson, Denver
29. Tracy McGrady, Houston
30. Baron Davis, L.A. Clippers

31. Brandon Roy, Portland
32. Josh Smith, Atlanta
33. Jose Calderon, Toronto
34. Rasheed Wallace, Detroit
35. Shawn Marion, Miami

36. Antawn Jamison, Washington
37. Monta Ellis, Golden State
38. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City
39. Rudy Gay, Memphis
40. Tyson Chandler, New Orleans

41. Corey Maggette, Golden State
42. Shane Battier, Houston
43. Ron Artest, Houston
44. Danny Granger, Indiana
45. T.J. Ford, Indiana

46. Michael Redd, Milwaukee
47. Gerald Wallace, Charlotte
48. Josh Howard, Dallas
49. Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia
50. Andris Biedrins, Golden State

Of course I'm not saying that just because Fanhouse said so it makes it true, but looking at that list...the only person I'd really even think about putting Kidd ahead of is Shane Battier.

So, what do you think? Is Jason Kidd still a top 50 player in this league? Is he even a top tier point guard? Because if you agree with that list, TJ Ford, Monta Ellis, Jose Calderon, Brandon Roy, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson, Tony Parker, and I'm assuming Steve Nash are all players who play the point guard position at least some of the time that are better than Kidd.

LSMF · 09-16-2008, 05:36 PM

This list has to be wrong...

DubOverdose · 09-16-2008, 05:39 PM

#50......maybe

Tokey41 · 09-16-2008, 07:01 PM

Age, potential, contract... I can see why some of these guys rank above Kidd if all variables are considered. If your looking at pure talent level then yes Kidd is a top 50 player (you would be an idiot not to take him over say TJ Ford).

Not that I agree with the rankings anyways. Morons.

StackAttack · 09-16-2008, 08:30 PM

Yeah, Ford's definitely on that list based almost entirely on age and potential.

Rick41 · 09-16-2008, 09:38 PM

Watch Dirk end up being #23 with Pau, Yao and Turkoglue ahead of him.

grndmstr_c · 09-16-2008, 09:45 PM

Those rankings are horrible. And that has nothing to do with Kidd's presence/nonpresence on the list.

As to the thread title, I'm sure you could make an argument that he's top 50, and I'm sure you could make an argument he's not. Honestly, though, when you get that far down I think it's very hard to differentiate. The effectiveness of guys in the Top-50 discussion (as opposed to those in the Top-10 discussion, for example) tends to be more dynamic based on how well they fit with teammates/systems. There's a short list of players (Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Garnett, etc.) who are talented enough (and close enough to their prime) to shine regardless of circumstance.

MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs · 09-16-2008, 09:48 PM

I think he'll still be on the list, coming up very soon.

And yes I would put him above 'Melo. But not Baron Davis or Tony Parker. But besides those two there's not many players on that list so far that have proven anything. Kidd lead his team to back to back Finals. (ok Allen Iverson has proven himself in the past but I think Kidd's better than A.I.)

Darth Ape · 09-16-2008, 10:02 PM

I know jose calderon is good... but putting him this high is turning my mind into soup

AxdemxO · 09-16-2008, 10:17 PM

Yes hes top 50..where exactly I cant say. But as many have pointed out this list isnt exactly all that good and many player can easily be moved around or in/out

MaVs 41 BaLler · 09-16-2008, 10:32 PM

josh howard at 48...pfft

you put danny granger ahead of him??

who the hell is danny granger?

Tokey41 · 09-16-2008, 10:37 PM

You probably haven't heard of him, he's the guy who doesn't get high and mouth off during the offseason. He's about as good as Howard really.

LonghornDub · 09-16-2008, 10:46 PM

It doesn't matter much to me whether Kidd is top 50, as long as he does what he needs to for the team.

Rick41 · 09-16-2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaVs 41 BaLler

josh howard at 48...pfft

you put danny granger ahead of him??

who the hell is danny granger?

actually a pretty decent "baller"

dirno2000 · 09-17-2008, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokey41

Age, potential, contract... I can see why some of these guys rank above Kidd if all variables are considered. If your looking at pure talent level then yes Kidd is a top 50 player (you would be an idiot not to take him over say TJ Ford).

Not that I agree with the rankings anyways. Morons.

TJ Ford quietly had a damn good season behind Calderon. He's going to surprise some people this year.

horse900703 · 09-17-2008, 09:08 AM

I wonder where is dirk?

LSMF · 09-17-2008, 09:13 AM

I think Jason Terry is a top 50 Nba Player, if Biedrins and T.J.ford made this list then so should Jason Terry.

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

I think Jason Terry is a top 50 Nba Player, if Biedrins and T.J.ford made this list then so should Jason Terry.

Yeah, and Stackhouse too - he's better than LeBron!

LSMF · 09-17-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Yeah, and Stackhouse too - he's better than LeBron!

I'm guessing you disagree with me that Jet should be on this list. Lets compare Jet to T.J Ford.

Jet's career - 15ppg, 5 apg. Jet has never missed more than 4 games in a season. T.J.ford's Career- 11ppg, 6 assists. T.J.Ford played only 51 games last season.

Jet Career- 15ppg, 5 apg
Andris Biedrins Career- 7pts, 7 rebs, 1 block.

Looking at the stats Jet's numbers are better than both T.J.Ford and Biedrins numbers but yet they made this list and he didn't (Unless they put him in the top 21 which I doubt). And Jet has more impact on games because of his consistent clutch shooting. I have proved my point that Jet should have made this list, now I'll be waiting for you Underdog to prove yours.

BGMaverick9 · 09-17-2008, 10:27 AM

Outside of the top 5, maybe 10...I don't know how you can honestly speculate their rankings, and be consistent across the board. A lot of things going into account, roles on the team, leadership, clutch, etc etc.

I don't care where Kidd is on that list. As long as he can still be Jason Kidd and he's a Maverick, that's good enough for me.

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

I'm guessing you disagree with me that Jet should be on this list. Lets compare Jet to T.J Ford.

Jet's career - 15ppg, 5 apg. Jet has never missed more than 4 games in a season. T.J.ford's Career- 11ppg, 6 assists. T.J.Ford played only 51 games last season.

Jet Career- 15ppg, 5 apg
Andris Biedrins Career- 7pts, 7 rebs, 1 block.

Looking at the stats Jet's numbers are better than both T.J.Ford and Biedrins numbers but yet they made this list and he didn't (Unless they put him in the top 21 which I doubt). And Jet has more impact on games because of his consistent clutch shooting. I have proved my point that Jet should have made this list, now I'll be waiting for you Underdog to prove yours.

This isn't a list of the top-50 CAREER players, it's a list of top-50 CURRENT players and JET certainly isn't one of them...

LSMF · 09-17-2008, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

This isn't a list of the top-50 CAREER players, it's a list of top-50 CURRENT players and JET certainly isn't one of them...

And Andris Effin Biedrins and T.J ford are?

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

And Andris Effin Biedrins and T.J ford are?

I wouldn't consider them top-50, no...

But I wouldn't consider JET top-100 either...

LSMF · 09-17-2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I wouldn't consider them top-50, no...

But I wouldn't consider JET top-100 either...

So you're saying JET is not a top 100 player in the Nba??

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by longsufferingmavsfan

So you're saying JET is not a top 100 player in the Nba??

I don't know - can you read English?

EricaLubarsky · 09-17-2008, 03:23 PM

Top 100 is only roughly top 25%

Is terry a star? no. Is he better than most guys that don't even have guaranteed contracts, or play more than 10mpg? Hell Yeah.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I wouldn't consider them top-50, no...

But I wouldn't consider JET top-100 either...

You are out of your freaking mind my mann. A good argument can be made that Jet is in the top 50 there toward the end. But to say that hes not top 100..is just..well stupid

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

You are out of your freaking mind my mann. A good argument can be made that Jet is in the top 50 there toward the end. But to say that hes not top 100..is just..well stupid

There's 30 teams in the NBA - take the best guy from each team and you already have 30 players out of 50...

Take the #2 guys from each team and we're up to 60 - are you telling me JET is better than ANY #2 guy in the NBA??? (he certainly isn't better than our #2, Jason Kidd...)

He might be better than some lesser #3 guys (though certainly not better than Josh Howard), but some teams even have #4 & #5 guys that are better than him, which is why they're starters and he's not (don't even bring Manu into this discussion - he knows how to play defense!)

When you break it down, JET obviously isn't a top-50 player and he'd have to work damn hard at cracking the top-100 (past accomplishments don't count THIS season...)

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

There's 30 teams in the NBA - take the best guy from each team and you already have 30 players out of 50...

Take the #2 guys from each team and we're up to 60 - are you telling me JET is better than ANY #2 guy in the NBA??? (he certainly isn't better than our #2, Jason Kidd...)

He might be better than some lesser #3 guys (though certainly not better than Josh Howard), but some teams even have #4 & #5 guys that are better than him, which is why they're starters and he's not (don't even bring Manu into this discussion - he knows how to play defense!)

When you break it down, JET obviously isn't a top-50 player and he'd have to work damn hard at cracking the top-100 (past accomplishments don't count THIS season...)

I am talking about this top 50 list. And on this list there are a few guys who are questionable as someone else pointed out. He is def. a top 100 player though. Now as for Jet/Josh...IMO Jet is still a better option offensively then Josh and IMO he has def. done more for this team over the years ..soo in a way, unless Josh gets his head bak in it and plays really well..YES Jet is better then Josh at least for this team

Underdog · 09-17-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AxdemxO

I am talking about this top 50 list. And on this list there are a few guys who are questionable as someone else pointed out. He is def. a top 100 player though. Now as for Jet/Josh...IMO Jet is still a better option offensively then Josh and IMO he has def. done more for this team over the years ..soo in a way, unless Josh gets his head bak in it and plays really well..YES Jet is better then Josh at least for this team

You're f*cking high...

(seriously - you think JET is better than Josh????)

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

You're f*cking high...

(seriously - you think JET is better than Josh????)

All around game NO...but for this team looking at all the time both have been here..at this point yes..Josh can take that bak, but he will have to start playing basketball again

plus when I need to score I still go to either Dirk or Jet...not Howard

StackAttack · 09-17-2008, 06:26 PM

The only person on the list I really have a problem with is Shane Battier. I don't necessarily agree with the rest of the rankings, but I think a valid argument could be made in any player's favor for their position on that list. Shane Battier's probably the best role player in the league, but that's the problem. The King of the Scrubs. I mean, if you agree with that list, then Houston's Big Three doesn't include Ron Artest.

Rick41 · 09-17-2008, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

I wouldn't consider them top-50, no...

But I wouldn't consider JET top-100 either...

wtf is wrong with you?

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 06:32 PM

Like I said Kidd def. is, Jet could go wither way. But I just notice an interesting thin. J.R. Smith isnt on there?? I know most people dont think of him as top 50 and I dont necessarily either. But I am using to to prove a point. The guy is a better player then several people on there and soo this list is basically not valid..because its hard to rate that many players and once you do soo many of them can be moved around. So this thread become kinda usless...unless you arguing underdog who seems to think that JET just suks that bad all though hes been there for us year after year...

CanadianMavsFan · 09-17-2008, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StackAttack

Without really thinking about it, I'd say "Yes" right away. But I've been following Fanhouse's NBA Top 50 feature, and it doesn't look like Kidd's going to make the cut. Granted, only Nos. 50-22 have been revealed, but I doubt anyone, even here, is going to rank Kidd above the likes of Melo.

The list to date:

22. Carmelo Anthony, Denver
23. Kevin Martin, Sacramento
24. Andrew Bynum, L.A. Lakers
25. Tony Parker, San Antonio

26. Caron Butler, Washington
27. David West, New Orleans
28. Allen Iverson, Denver
29. Tracy McGrady, Houston
30. Baron Davis, L.A. Clippers

31. Brandon Roy, Portland
32. Josh Smith, Atlanta
33. Jose Calderon, Toronto
34. Rasheed Wallace, Detroit
35. Shawn Marion, Miami

36. Antawn Jamison, Washington
37. Monta Ellis, Golden State
38. Kevin Durant, Oklahoma City
39. Rudy Gay, Memphis
40. Tyson Chandler, New Orleans

41. Corey Maggette, Golden State
42. Shane Battier, Houston
43. Ron Artest, Houston
44. Danny Granger, Indiana
45. T.J. Ford, Indiana

46. Michael Redd, Milwaukee
47. Gerald Wallace, Charlotte
48. Josh Howard, Dallas
49. Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia
50. Andris Biedrins, Golden State

Of course I'm not saying that just because Fanhouse said so it makes it true, but looking at that list...the only person I'd really even think about putting Kidd ahead of is Shane Battier.

So, what do you think? Is Jason Kidd still a top 50 player in this league? Is he even a top tier point guard? Because if you agree with that list, TJ Ford, Monta Ellis, Jose Calderon, Brandon Roy, Baron Davis, Allen Iverson, Tony Parker, and I'm assuming Steve Nash are all players who play the point guard position at least some of the time that are better than Kidd.

This list is retarded. What has Andrew Bynum done to be ahead of guys like Tony Parker and Tracy Mcgrady? Battier > Josh Howard, Iguodala, and Ron Artest!?!?!? Jose Calderon in the top 30? I live in Toronto and am a Raptors fan, but damn that's way too high.

grndmstr_c · 09-17-2008, 07:35 PM

A couple things:

1) I don't think you can just take the best player off each team and assume that you have the top 30 right there. Take the Knicks, for example. There are days when I don't think there's a single guy on their roster that I'd take over Kidd, Josh, or JT. Just to back that up with some stats, knickerblogger's league leaders rankings for last year (based on PER), have Dirk, Kidd, Josh, and JET all in the top 56.

2) I think Mavs fans who are sleeping on JET are going to be pleasantly surprised this coming year. Carlisle's got a good history with catch and shoot guys (Rip and even more so Reggie) and I think a motion offense is going to suit JET's skillset much better than Avery's one-on-one drudgery. I'm expecting a good year from him.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

A couple things:

1) I don't think you can just take the best player off each team and assume that you have the top 30 right there. Take the Knicks, for example. There are days when I don't think there's a single guy on their roster that I'd take over Kidd, Josh, or JT. Just to back that up with some stats, knickerblogger's league leaders rankings for last year (based on PER), have Dirk, Kidd, Josh, and JET all in the top 56.

2) I think Mavs fans who are sleeping on JET are going to be pleasantly surprised this coming year. Carlisle's got a good history with catch and shoot guys (Rip and even more so Reggie) and I think a motion offense is going to suit JET's skillset much better than Avery's one-on-one drudgery. I'm expecting a good year from him.

good pints : )...Go JET...GO MAVS......F the haters and doubters

fluid.forty.one · 09-17-2008, 08:23 PM

Jet really isn't that great anymore.. I bet you could find 100 players in the league that you could at least make a good argument against JET with.

Oh and if we're talking about just this upcoming year, then I would def put Kidd on that list.

AxdemxO · 09-17-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

Jet really isn't that great anymore.. I bet you could find 100 players in the league that you could at least make a good argument against JET with.

Oh and if we're talking about just this upcoming year, then I would def put Kidd on that list.

What makes Jet not soo great. I am not saying hes top 50 in the NBA, but the guy gets his 15-20 pts and many nites more a game, gets his 5 assists a game, a few rebounds, a steal here and there....and most of all hes clutch and a good team mate.

fluid.forty.one · 09-17-2008, 09:17 PM

I'm saying he's not as good as he used to be... there were many times last season when I cringed when he took a shot. He had some pretty nasty slumps.