Do you think we'll make a major trade before the deadline?

[mac222b]

anyone else notice Kidd has really stepped up his rebounding lately?

[rabbitproof]

I like Boobie Gibson.

Ajinca/JJB/2nd rounder. Get it on and done.


I'd also ask about Varejao while I'm at it..

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Ridnour would indeed be a nice pick up. or Boobie Gibson. both can hit the 3. Telfair is more likely than Ridnour to be dealt. since Flynn came back his minutes are really down. Telfair's actually shooting pretty well this year too but he turns the ball over alot.

no, no, no, NOOOOOO on Telfair

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by tcat075

I do not want Iguodala. I'm not sure I'd trade for him even if the Sixers were dumping him for nothing. I don't see a real spot for him on this team. Perhaps he can get some backup 4 minutes, but he doesn't play better defense than Marion or score as good as Butler at the 3, and isn't the spread the floor shooter than Stevenson is providing. He's a talented player, but adding him won't help.

I don't agree with one single part of this. (edit: except for the part about him not being as good a shooter as stevenson, but that's neither here nor there)

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Ridnour would indeed be a nice pick up. or Boobie Gibson. both can hit the 3. Telfair is more likely than Ridnour to be dealt. since Flynn came back his minutes are really down. Telfair's actually shooting pretty well this year too but he turns the ball over alot.

Yeah, Telfair is not exactly what I'd be looking for. The availability is there, true, which I think is the reason you brought him up. I'd rather have an older, consistent guy who could come in if Roddy's just out of control and execute the offense efficiently. Not sure if there's a such player on the market, but if there is, I'd hope the Mavericks take a look.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

I like Boobie Gibson.

Ajinca/JJB/2nd rounder. Get it on and done.


I'd also ask about Varejao while I'm at it..

i'd love to have Boobie and Varejao. not sure what the Cavs would be looking for. probably salary relief, young talent and picks. i don't believe we can come up with enough salary in any case, unless we send Haywood out to a 3rd team. i like what Haywood brings defensively when he's "right" and has the right matchup but would gladly sacrifice some of Woods length for the hustle and athleticism of Varejao.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

no, no, no, NOOOOOO on Telfair

i guess we know where you stand on Telfair
i don't like the guy either. just throwing some names out there.
and he is actually shooting a decent % from 3 this year.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I don't agree with one single part of this. (edit: except for the part about him not being as good a shooter as stevenson, but that's neither here nor there)

I'd figure I'd get a few responses like this. Yes, the refusal to take him even if Philly gave him to use was a little bit of hyperbole. However, I stand by these two points: Shawn Marion is a better defender than Iguodala, and Caron Butler has been better this year offensively. For Marion, its just from what I read. Iguodala is a good defender, but Marion is still one of the best. Statistically, they have similar defensive win shares, and their defensive stats (steals and blocks) actually slightly favor Marion when you look at them per 36.

Now to Butler. I'm not going to bother with posting any stats, because Caron Butler's playing 8 less minutes on a much better team. However, before you start talking about how Iggy is being forced to be the "man" on the Sixers, let me point out he is not option #1 anymore. At the very least, he's sharing the load equally with Brand and Holiday. Their FGA's are similar, around 12 per game, though both Brand's and Holiday's are higher in less minutes. If we go by usage %, he's actually 7th on the team (actually 8th, but Craig Brackins, who's played 10 minutes this year, shouldn't count). Butler and Iguodala provide very similar offense, except that Butler has shot much better from three.

I definitely think that Iguodala would probably be a little bit better on a good team rather than one of the worst. But how much better? I don't think enough to justify taking on his contract and then giving up whatever has to be given up. As long as Stevenson is earning minutes at the 2 and Butler and Marion are splitting at the 3, there's not really a lot of minutes for Iggy to get. The reason I mentioned Stevenson was to point out that he's playing too well to be shoved to the end of he bench, so Caron can play the 2, Marion the 3, and Iggy the 3/4.

Anyway, we're forgetting one key reason that we don't need Iggy: team chemistry. It took Caron almost a year before he's finally finding his groove. There's no reason to screw it all up by exchanging very similar pieces that do not clearly make the team better. Might Iggy's game be a better fit? Sure, I'd love to get a slasher/driver in here (though Iggy still takes 75% jumpers, so let's not pretend he attacks the cup everytime he touches the ball), but what we have right now is working. 23-5. Why mess it up?

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by mac222b

i'd love to have Boobie and Varejao. not sure what the Cavs would be looking for. probably salary relief, young talent and picks. i don't believe we can come up with enough salary in any case, unless we send Haywood out to a 3rd team. i like what Haywood brings defensively when he's "right" and has the right matchup but would gladly sacrifice some of Woods length for the hustle and athleticism of Varejao.

Agree! Both are guys who haven't been full-time starters but are capable of starting there's a lot of flexibility there. Both have been contributing role players to a contender so I think they'd fit in great. Boobie is 24 and AV is 28 so age-wise, it's a move in right direction as well. Contractually, Varejao is good value and Boobie is bit rich for a 9th-10th man but still good value with Kidd's age and contract status next year.

You pointed out Varejao's strengths pretty well. Don't forget free throws for this season! I like Boobie as well.. he is a better shooter and scorer by far without giving up much as a passer or defender when compared to JJB.

Haywood/Ajinca/JJB matches salary-wise but I suppose that's not nearly enough relief for them.

We would be rocking:

Chandler/Varejao/Mahinimi
Dirk/Cardinal
Butler/Marion/Novak
Stevenson/JET/Dojo
Kidd/Roddy/Booby

Nobody is a defensive slouch and the number of bombers we have is startling (7 guys in our top 10 can be 40% beyond the arc guys) and also the flexibility is great. Almost everybody in the main rotation can play two positions equally well except the starting frontline which doesn't need to flex.

I'm starting to get attached to this...

[Thespiralgoeson]

Originally Posted by tcat075

. For Marion, its just from what I read. Iguodala is a good defender, but Marion is still one of the best.

At first I thought you were underrating Iggy, but now I think you're just overrating Marion. 4 years ago, Marion was "one of the best." He's still good, but at this stage in their careers I think Iggy is the better defender of the two. Besides, why exactly are we comparing Iggy to Marion anyway? Shouldn't we be comparing Iggy to Butler?

Butler and Iguodala provide very similar offense, except that Butler has shot much better from three.

But they don't provide a similar offense. That's why I want Iggy instead of Butler. This team needs a slasher badly on the wing, and Iggy would fill that need. Beyond that, Iggy is much better passer and ball-handler. He could play some point-forward, which is also something we've needed for a long time given Kidd's inability to get past his defender.

I definitely think that Iguodala would probably be a little bit better on a good team rather than one of the worst. But how much better? I don't think enough to justify taking on his contract and then giving up whatever has to be given up. As long as Stevenson is earning minutes at the 2 and Butler and Marion are splitting at the 3, there's not really a lot of minutes for Iggy to get. The reason I mentioned Stevenson was to point out that he's playing too well to be shoved to the end of he bench, so Caron can play the 2, Marion the 3, and Iggy the 3/4.

I don't understand this paragraph. Any deal for Iggy would undoubtedly involved Butler. The idea was, Iggy plays the t3. Where you're getting this Caron at 2, Marion at 3, Stevenson on the bench stuff, I don't know.

Anyway, we're forgetting one key reason that we don't need Iggy: team chemistry. It took Caron almost a year before he's finally finding his groove. There's no reason to screw it all up by exchanging very similar pieces that do not clearly make the team better. Might Iggy's game be a better fit? Sure, I'd love to get a slasher/driver in here (though Iggy still takes 75% jumpers, so let's not pretend he attacks the cup everytime he touches the ball), but what we have right now is working. 23-5. Why mess it up?

This is just me, but frankly I'm really not all that impressed with this "chemistry" that everyone keeps going on about. At least not when it comes to Butler. Chandler and Stevenson, yeah I'm impressed with them. But the idea that this unit is so mind-blowingly good together that we shouldn't even touch it because it can't be improved? That this chemistry is so good and so precarious that we can't take the risk of trying to make it better?

I'm not buying it. Seriously, I think you could switch out Butler for any number of players and the "chemistry" wouldn't change much. It probably has more to do with Butler than it does with Iggy, but I just think he's the odd man out. I know he's played well lately but I'm just not a fan of his game; at least not when I think about what we need from that position. He's an excellent mid-range shooter, sure. But Iggy's a considerably better slasher, defender, rebounder, and passer/ball-handler.

Oh well, it's all moot anyway because you're going to get your wish. Nothing's going to change. And I'm about 90% sure Butler will be re-signed and this will be the same lineup we see next year. That might sound great to most people here, but going forward with Butler just doesn't do much for me.

[tcat075]

I keep overcomplicating my arguments. In reality, its pretty simple.

I agree that an offensive slasher would be great. Iguodala is a very good one. However, besides that, he doesn't do much on offense. He's not a great jump shooter, even though he's taking more of them since his early days in the league.

Butler is, as you said, worse at rebounding and defense. However, he's clearly the better scorer, and right now, this team doesn't have enough scoring. Their defense is good, their rebounding has been solid minus a few notable break downs, but their offense is about average for a team that wants to be more than average. Thus, I don't see Iguodala as a player we need when we have to give up a 45%/44% shooter scoring 17 points per 36. If you don't buy the shooting percentages, then sure, I guess I could understand where you're coming from more. I do buy them, and they've been trending up since mid-November. I've watched most the games, and I don't see Caron hitting a ton of bad shots. He looks like he has finally found his role in the offense.

That's why I'm worried about trading for someone like Iguodala midway through the season. The chemistry I'm talking about is not friendships or tightness between the team (which I hear is very good, I might add), but finding your place on the court with the team. It took Butler almost a year. Iguodala is a different player, so maybe he jumps right in, but what if it takes him a year? What then? Once again, this is a 23-5 team, and I don't see Iguodala helping this team so much more than Butler can without any doubts. 23-5 shouldn't feel the need to take chances and hope that trades improve a team.

Sorry for not replying directly to what you said, but my previous post was all over the place and really made no sense, now that I look at it. This is more what I was trying to say.

[xrobx]

iggys stat line tonight

38 minutes 9 pts on 2-11 shooting 0-3 beyond the arc 2 reb 4 ast 2 TO 2 stl

we could really use that here on the mavs

[ReDirkulous Tyme]

Originally Posted by xrobx

iggys stat line tonight

38 minutes 9 pts on 2-11 shooting 0-3 beyond the arc 2 reb 4 ast 2 TO 2 stl

we could really use that here on the mavs

what was Dirk's line against Orlando? 4-13 for 17 points or something along those lines? He's garbage too, we should prolly go ahead and trade dirk. Can't be having guys shooting 4-13 on your team .......

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Agree! Both are guys who haven't been full-time starters but are capable of starting there's a lot of flexibility there. Both have been contributing role players to a contender so I think they'd fit in great. Boobie is 24 and AV is 28 so age-wise, it's a move in right direction as well. Contractually, Varejao is good value and Boobie is bit rich for a 9th-10th man but still good value with Kidd's age and contract status next year.

You pointed out Varejao's strengths pretty well. Don't forget free throws for this season! I like Boobie as well.. he is a better shooter and scorer by far without giving up much as a passer or defender when compared to JJB.

Haywood/Ajinca/JJB matches salary-wise but I suppose that's not nearly enough relief for them.

We would be rocking:

Chandler/Varejao/Mahinimi
Dirk/Cardinal
Butler/Marion/Novak
Stevenson/JET/Dojo
Kidd/Roddy/Booby

Nobody is a defensive slouch and the number of bombers we have is startling (7 guys in our top 10 can be 40% beyond the arc guys) and also the flexibility is great. Almost everybody in the main rotation can play two positions equally well except the starting frontline which doesn't need to flex.

I'm starting to get attached to this...

the question remains: why would Cleveland do this? yes they would save some salary. but even if we threw in a 1st i don't think they'd do it. seems like some other contender would want either a 3pt. bomber that can get hot and really fill it up on a given night; or a versatile, hustling PF-C on a reasonable contract. i could see it if a 3rd team(Houston)gets Haywood and then gives Cleveland some young talent.

i think the importance of having two huge Centers for the playoffs thing is somewhat overstated. much rather have another big with some athleticism and fight. yes Haywood probably matches up better with Bynum, D. Howard etc. but Varejao's other strengths more than make up for the slight size discrepancy.

[mac222b]

edit: it is a really nice luxury having 2 shot blockers and Haywood does help in that department and i'm not trying to knock that. when he's on his game he helps alot. i guess i feel like this team is lacking the scrappy, quick-ish yet physical rebounder type that's dying to go get every board. Marion's been great the last few in that regard but he's a little smallish as a PF.
and Butler is a subpar rebounder at this stage at his position.

[TexasTeamsUniting]

[IMG][/IMG]

[mavs777]

Frankly the biggest reason why I could see a want of Iggy over Butler is rebounding

[mavs777]

I doubt the Nets would do that deal, I don't think they would have a big interest in Marion and frankly they want Carmello

[TexasTeamsUniting]

ya i know but it works and looks nice for cubes

[Thespiralgoeson]

I don't think that deal appeals to New Jersey even slightly.

[TexasTeamsUniting]

a bunch of realists over here jk

[41mvp]

Originally Posted by TexasTeamsUniting

[IMG][/IMG]

Are you kidding me???You want trade J.Kidd?Probably you are ill!!!Shawn Marion is our secound best defender.Do you want kill our team chemistry?
If we trade Kidd and Marion you do this

[rabbitproof]

Originally Posted by mac222b

the question remains: why would Cleveland do this? yes they would save some salary. but even if we threw in a 1st i don't think they'd do it. seems like some other contender would want either a 3pt. bomber that can get hot and really fill it up on a given night; or a versatile, hustling PF-C on a reasonable contract. i could see it if a 3rd team(Houston)gets Haywood and then gives Cleveland some young talent.

i think the importance of having two huge Centers for the playoffs thing is somewhat overstated. much rather have another big with some athleticism and fight. yes Haywood probably matches up better with Bynum, D. Howard etc. but Varejao's other strengths more than make up for the slight size discrepancy.

Yeah, it is a stretch without getting a third partner unless we start going into DoJo/1st territory. I think potential partners would be Houston, Philly and maybe Detroit. They are all cusp playoff teams who could use a better starting center.

This would be great if we get the buyout on DeShawn as there have been rumors of a Cleveland-Philly deal anyways:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=247t7t9

Minus Haywood, I agree we lose a little something vs. the Lakers, Magic and even Boston but I think Varejao is more dependable and also makes us better against the Spurs and Miami. Ultimately, I'm willing to make the move because in order for our playoffs to be successful, it's going to be on Chandler to be healthy and foul-free to play atleast 32~ minutes and also I think Varejao will be a more flexible piece moving forward. If we can add another veteran center like the trade above, it would mitigate the loss of Haywood somewhat as well.

More realistically, I think the just Boobie deal is more probable. They get a young big prospect and a decent backup PG who can play behind Mo Williams and both have contracts that are expirings while removing up to 9 million off their future cap. Plus, it would cool to call a Mav a boobie.

[deamon]

Billups for Kidd? You're insane? Billups is 2 busstops behind Jason.

[SMC0007]

I thought I smelled something when I woke up. It's piling up in here.

[TexasTeamsUniting]

cuban would do this in a heartbeat where have yall been this is so a mavericks move . and i doubt chemistry has ever been a concern with management... all mark would see is another superstar and aging point gaurd that he would have to have..... maybe not this time of year the way the teams playing but your gonna tell me mavs would not do a trade like this. i didnt say it would make sense or help the team when has a mavs move ever really done so.

[41mvp]

Originally Posted by deamon

Billups for Kidd? You're insane? Billups is 2 busstops behind Jason.

damn right!!!Kidd>Billups

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by xrobx

iggys stat line tonight

38 minutes 9 pts on 2-11 shooting 0-3 beyond the arc 2 reb 4 ast 2 TO 2 stl

we could really use that here on the mavs

Geez, on a sad team, those are some pretty sad stats, you'd think on such a bad team he'd have at least 15 points a night. It's hard to acclimate a new rotation player mid way through the season, if we can find a banger like Varejao without giving up a rotation guy, that's probably the way to go. We have a great blend of players, great end of bench guys who can step in to fill a role. Our 2 guard slot, your looking at Deshawn, Jet, and Boobs when he gets back, it's not bad at all. Marion-Caron-Dirk is our forward rotation, Tyson, BWood at center with Ian behind them.

[rabbitproof]

With the Mavs having a bye week, this thread does have an offseason-y flavor about it..

[xrobx]

Originally Posted by ReDirkulous Tyme

what was Dirk's line against Orlando? 4-13 for 17 points or something along those lines? He's garbage too, we should prolly go ahead and trade dirk. Can't be having guys shooting 4-13 on your team .......

when iggy is currently the leading candidate for his second league mvp award and passes larry bird on the all time scoring list this might be a relevant counterargument

[tcat075]

I'm against bringing Iggy here, but cherrypicking stats is ridiculous. He had a bad game. Show me a player who hasn't.

[tsar]

I hope we don't do any major trades... this team has chemistry and swagger and I'm not sure I'm willing to sacrifice that for slightly more talent. Sometimes it's just good to not do anything.

[Robillion]

The biggest trade we will make by the deadline (hopefully) is an injured RoddyB for a 50, 40, 80 healthy RoddyB. That will be all the boost of talent we will need.

[mavs777]

did someone say kidd is better than billups? where did you get the meth?

[DMOC]

Kidd > Billups

[SMC0007]

When we made the deal to get Kidd I would have no doubt rather had Billups. Things are a lil different now.

[xrobx]

Originally Posted by tcat075

I'm against bringing Iggy here, but cherrypicking stats is ridiculous. He had a bad game. Show me a player who hasn't.

well look at the entire body of work then. butler averages more points per game than iggy, and shoots a higher percentage than iggy does from the field, free throw line, and 3 point line. butler is playing on a good team with other good scorers and iggy isn't. iggy averages 8 more minutes per game than butler does (37mpg-29mpg) on a bad team and still can't outscore butler. so i don't understand why we need to mess with team chemistry to bring in a guy that butler has outperformed. i know his rebounding is higher than butler (6.0rpg-4.3rpg) but again, butler plays 8 less minutes a game. i just need someone to really convince me how this is even a significant upgrade because i'm just not seeing it here. butler is really finding his groove here in dallas after a slow start and i think we need to hang on to him.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by xrobx

well look at the entire body of work then. butler averages more points per game than iggy, and shoots a higher percentage than iggy does from the field, free throw line, and 3 point line. butler is playing on a good team with other good scorers and iggy isn't. iggy averages 8 more minutes per game than butler does (37mpg-29mpg) on a bad team and still can't outscore butler. so i don't understand why we need to mess with team chemistry to bring in a guy that butler has outperformed. i know his rebounding is higher than butler (6.0rpg-4.3rpg) but again, butler plays 8 less minutes a game. i just need someone to really convince me how this is even a significant upgrade because i'm just not seeing it here. butler is really finding his groove here in dallas after a slow start and i think we need to hang on to him.

Scoring more and more efficiently doesn't mean Butler has performed better because he hasn't, Iggy is an a lot better rebounder, passer, and defender than Butler and is clearly the better player, but im not sure it would be an impact move and it may affect chemistry

[jcm28]

I think Iggy is not the type of guy that takes too long to adjust to a team. If we can get Iggy for Caron and someone else then go for it.

[dude1394]

I'm starting to waver on iggy...butler is starting to fix some of the things that was plaguing him earlier. He's into the flow offense much better. Getting the ball and making his move.

He's also not moping about Marion's role anymore either (I can't provide a link but I sort of think he was).

If he continues to do that then it would be tough to pull the Andre trigger. He's still not a distributor at all and he doesn't finish very well, but he's a gamer and tough on the boards in traffice.

I've seen him come out with some rebounds that were gotten from sheer grit. That's a nice...