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Old 01-02-2011, 06:11 PM   #41
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Exactly, they haven't had a legit 2nd option on their roster since Finley. Manu+Parker=guys who can create their shot any time they want.


Who's going to step up in the playoffs besides Dirk? NOBODY. The Mavs ALWAYS perform well during the regular season, why? Because these teams are built for the regular season, but once the playoffs start that's when the Mavs' flaws are exposed.
What's your point here, exactly? Do you think you are revealing something that is news to this message board? Or are you planning on giving us a plan on how to find one? Sitting around here bitching about it isn't going to do anything, other than annoy posters here.
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Old 01-02-2011, 06:33 PM   #42
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I'm a troll because I'm not sucking the Mavs dicks like everyone else? I'm a realist, we haven't won a championship and WON'T if we keep on doing the same thing over and over and over again.
F@ck you
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:02 PM   #43
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Whose wish exactly? Butler's play as of late has been stellar. Are you being sarcastic? Are there really people who think Caron shouldn't start games?
I think that Marion fits alongside Roddy a lot better than Butler does.
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:05 PM   #44
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Ignore is wonderful.

Except on an iPhone where autocorrect made me block waikiki
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:32 PM   #45
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Control Panel>Edit Ignore List>Add Wawaweewa>Hit Okay> Save Changes> come back here and it is a lot more readable.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:58 PM   #46
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Control Panel>Edit Ignore List>Add Wawaweewa>Hit Okay> Save Changes> come back here and it is a lot more readable.
wow!

my first ignore. i didnt even know it would make every post he does extinct from my account.

thx b.
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Old 01-02-2011, 11:10 PM   #47
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i didnt actually see the game where he got injured because this is weekend i had my little grandson.

hopefully he can bounce back.

ive grown to really like butler.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:05 AM   #48
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its very depressing to talk about trading caron, he's been such an awesome guy this season and a great team player but we have to do what we have to do. that's how the business works
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:23 AM   #49
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its very depressing to talk about trading caron, he's been such an awesome guy this season and a great team player but we have to do what we have to do. that's how the business works
My thoughts exactly *sighs*
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Old 01-03-2011, 05:32 AM   #50
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Assuming Caron can make a two month bounce back, the Mavs' current roster can sustain itself away from the trade option. JET should run with the starters as he can no longer create his own shots and would best replace the shooting lost with Caron's injury in the first-unit. He's probably the one Mav whose impact is maximized the most when playing with Kidd's fastbreak orchestration and Dirk's space creation/PnR's.

Stevenson needs to start for his defense and 3ball and can play SF to help make up for Caron's minutes. That's okay because the two spot can be manned by JET and provide minutes for DoJo/Roddy's emergence and return. This starting lineup keeps Marion in the 2nd unit and prevents the bench from turning into a bunch of combo guards and a center (hey there, 3 guard lineups). The second unit would then be loaded with players who can find their own offense via penetration (Marion/JJB/DoJo/Roddy).

Kidd(34)/JJB(14)
JET(30)/Dojo&Roddy(18)
Stevenson(22)/Marion(26)
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Chandler(30)/Haywood(18)
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Old 01-03-2011, 10:12 AM   #51
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Does anybody know, when Butler will miss rest of the season, can we trade Butler and then this other team would be able to apply for a disabled player exception? So that this trade partner of ours could save 5 million right away?
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:07 AM   #52
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Even with a partial tear and a return in 2 months, I can't imagine that Caron will be the same player or be able to log many minutes. That's a damn serious, painful injury that would be subject to another tear, perhaps even a full tear, if he rushes back.

Roddy, Dirk, now Caron... It's damn depressing!
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Old 01-03-2011, 11:18 AM   #53
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Does anybody know, when Butler will miss rest of the season, can we trade Butler and then this other team would be able to apply for a disabled player exception? So that this trade partner of ours could save 5 million right away?
thats not how the exception works.

Disabled Player Exception: Allows a team that is over the cap to acquire a replacement for a disabled player who will be out for either the remainder of that season (for in-season injuries/deaths) or the next season (if the disability occurs during the offseason). The maximum salary of the replacement player is either 50% of the injured player's salary, or the average salary, whichever is less. This exception requires an NBA-designated doctor to verify the extent of the injury.
he'd have to be out until the end of next season for this to be worth it because the injury happened after nov 30th.

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Old 01-03-2011, 11:26 AM   #54
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Even with a partial tear and a return in 2 months, I can't imagine that Caron will be the same player or be able to log many minutes. That's a damn serious, painful injury that would be subject to another tear, perhaps even a full tear, if he rushes back.

Roddy, Dirk, now Caron... It's damn depressing!
easy
Dirk's return soon
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:42 PM   #55
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Trading Butler absolutely sucks.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:48 PM   #56
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Trading Butler absolutely sucks.
Now he probably has more value to us as a contract than player.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:50 PM   #57
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Trading Butler absolutely sucks.
The suckier thing is that we might be forced to trade him if we want to retain the "win now" mentality. Things were going just fine for us and Butler, then the basketball gods had to pull this sh!t on him.

It sucks.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:53 PM   #58
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Trading Butler absolutely sucks.
Other than seeming to be a great guy..why? Surely there is a better fit player to be had. Someone with a little more drive and less settle for the J, and someone that can finish a lil better around the paint and rim.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:56 PM   #59
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The suckier thing is that we might be forced to trade him if we want to retain the "win now" mentality. Things were going just fine for us and Butler, then the basketball gods had to pull this sh!t on him.

It sucks.
Doubly sucks. Now other teams will see us desperate to replace Butler will ask the world for what they got. Also, most teams moving for a contract like Butler is looking to cut losses, which means a long term deal coming our way. It's another thing management has to look at in consideration of the new CBA and rumors of a hard cap.

My hunch is that we'll get a backup 4 for Dirk, Marion full time at the 3 with Deshawn/Jones and eventually Boobs will pull some Butler time.
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:59 PM   #60
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Other than seeming to be a great guy..why? Surely there is a better fit player to be had. Someone with a little more drive and less settle for the J, and someone that can finish a lil better around the paint and rim.
Name a player who fits the criteria you just listed, is available, and could be received for a package including an injured Butler.
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:05 PM   #61
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Now he probably has more value to us as a contract than player.
Sure has and the NBA is a tough place, but why not resingning him, when he is OK?
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:13 PM   #62
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Name a player who fits the criteria you just listed, is available, and could be received for a package including an injured Butler.


Thats his job. It doesn't matter who I name. I'm not gonna pretend to know the intricate details involved with this but I don't understand why they just wouldn't pry LeBron out of Miami. I mean we beat them twice so it only makes sense.
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:20 PM   #63
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Now he probably has more value to us as a contract than player.
that was always the case
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:21 PM   #64
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Name a player who fits the criteria you just listed, is available, and could be received for a package including an injured Butler.
Stephen Jackson
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:28 PM   #65
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Name a player who fits the criteria you just listed, is available, and could be received for a package including an injured Butler.
I'm not disagreeing that Butler doesn't fill that void better than most of the players available via trade/FA signing. However, what about the Rockets? Could Kevin Martin be had for the combo of Butler/Haywood/Injury Exception? I have absolutely no idea if the numbers work, but that would seem to be exactly what we need, if Kevin Martin could be had.

In all reality, before the trade for Butler went down, I always wanted Kevin Martin. I absolutely love what Butler brings to the table in every aspect. He's absolutely nasty on the court, he's very respectful off the court, great community guy, great locker room guy, and everyone seems to love him on the team. Needless to say, I have really loved what Caron has brought to this team. And, prior to the injury, I thought we didn't need a trade to be championship material. With the way Caron was stepping in to that 2nd scoring option behind dirk (see his 20ppg avg over the last 7 games), and with Roddy B coming back, I thought we were already one of the best teams in the league, and with Roddy we would be right up there with the Lakers.

However, with this damn injury, we're clearly back down in that 2nd tier, more than likely even with Roddy. We need a trade in order to compete for a championship NOW. With the lockout looming, there is no guarantee we will ever get another chance with Dirk and Kidd. If there is any way to get Kevin Martin, I think we need to go for it, and here's why:

Kevin Martin is one of the most gifted offensive players I've seen. I put him up there in that 1st tier of scorers in this league. He absolutely breathtaking to watch. His jumper is absolutely WET, from any range. But the best part about him, is he doesn't seem to fall in love with his jumper. He takes a ton of FT's, because he gets in the lane and isn't scared of taking it to the hole. Best part is, he gives us another 90% FT shooter along side Dirk. In my opinion, Kevin Martin has always been the perfect Robin to Dirk's Batman. And with him, when Dirk retires, he could take over that #1 option with ease. Look at the season he's having on an absolutely terrible Rockets team.

If we could get Kevin Martin, I'd start saving for NBA Championship tickets. With our current roster, we prolly won't make it past the 2nd round, if that.
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Old 01-03-2011, 01:46 PM   #66
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Thats his job. It doesn't matter who I name. I'm not gonna pretend to know the intricate details involved with this but I don't understand why they just wouldn't pry LeBron out of Miami. I mean we beat them twice so it only makes sense.
Way to punt. Fact is, it's incredibly unlikely there's anyone available who will fit those criteria. It's easy to say, "Yeah, let's trade Butler for X and Y" without realizing that Donnie and crew aren't playing a GM video game.

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Stephen Jackson
I'm sorry, have you ever actually watched Stephen Jackson play? Outside of maybe those 6 games against the Mavs in 2007? He certainly does not come anywhere close to fulfilling the criteria listed by SMC. Even if you like him, that wasn't the subject of the conversation.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:10 PM   #67
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Way to punt. Fact is, it's incredibly unlikely there's anyone available who will fit those criteria. It's easy to say, "Yeah, let's trade Butler for X and Y" without realizing that Donnie and crew aren't playing a GM video game.



I'm sorry, have you ever actually watched Stephen Jackson play? Outside of maybe those 6 games against the Mavs in 2007? He certainly does not come anywhere close to fulfilling the criteria listed by SMC.

This is what you wanted to do and I don't want to be the donkey. If I punted then the ball is in your possession. You got any names or ideas other than the ones we already know such as "he's not available, or he sucks and isn't as good as Butler"? Help me out here, whats the attitude, just shut 'er down and try again next year? I didn't say it was easy or I had the right answer, just simply that it's someones job to fill a void we might have and surely it's possible. There is no guarantee that Roddy will be back this year, or Butler.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by LonghornDub View Post
Way to punt. Fact is, it's incredibly unlikely there's anyone available who will fit those criteria. It's easy to say, "Yeah, let's trade Butler for X and Y" without realizing that Donnie and crew aren't playing a GM video game.



I'm sorry, have you ever actually watched Stephen Jackson play? Outside of maybe those 6 games against the Mavs in 2007? He certainly does not come anywhere close to fulfilling the criteria listed by SMC. Even if you like him, that wasn't the subject of the conversation.
About 9 seconds to go, against GSW, down 2, Jax dribbling right side about 30 feet away, counting the clock down and non chalantly lets one fly. Sure it's a loser he's chucking it for, but still can he just turn it on and off?
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:21 PM   #69
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Jackson takes more than double the shots of butler in the key
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:25 PM   #70
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If he's really available, I fancy the Kevin Martin idea.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:25 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by SMC0007 View Post
This is what you wanted to do and I don't want to be the donkey. If I punted then the ball is in your possession. You got any names or ideas other than the ones we already know such as "he's not available, or he sucks and isn't as good as Butler"? Help me out here, whats the attitude, just shut 'er down and try again next year? I didn't say it was easy or I had the right answer, just simply that it's someones job to fill a void we might have and surely it's possible. There is no guarantee that Roddy will be back this year, or Butler.
I have no idea what the first thing you wrote means. None whatsoever. "What I wanted to do"?

As for the rest, no, of course that's not the attitude. The attitude is, first, we see what Butler's timetable is. If it's not a whole-season injury, we are probably better off just waiting on him, unless some as-of-yet unapparent trade option presents itself.

Then, if it is a whole-season injury, we obviously have to look at our options, which unfortunately will almost surely be comprised entirely of players who don't fit the criteria you listed.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:34 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by GermanDunk View Post
Sure has and the NBA is a tough place, but why not resingning him, when he is OK?
I think if all things were equal, he'd go back to Miami. But if we hung onto him through the injury, we have a good chance to bring him back at maybe a 3 year deal, but with the injury, there will be plenty of red flags, especially if he doesn't get a full run late in the season.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:45 PM   #73
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Doesn't jackson have to be a chucker for that team?
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:52 PM   #74
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Doesn't jackson have to be a chucker for that team?
The guy had 9 seconds to drive the paint, and create something for an easy bucket, rather than firing up one from 26 feet. But without much else on that team, 20 shots a night for him would not be a shock. I mean the guy did win a championship with Duncan, he can't be that stupid with Dirk. With Kidd and Dirk opening things up, he should be able to get quality shots here. Never paid too much attention to his defense, but to get on the floor on a Popovich team, must have some skills.
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Old 01-03-2011, 02:58 PM   #75
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Jackson was always a bonehead, but he was a different player under Pop than he is now. You guys all remember when Josh Howard wasn't a shotchucker and was a very effective energy guy. Jackson used to be much more efficient too (although his game differs from Josh's).

Jackson would bring certainly things to the table that I very much like, but it makes no sense to say, "Caron takes too many jumpers and is inefficient" and then say, "Let's get Stephen Jackson!"
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:04 PM   #76
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Interesting take from Kelly Dwyer of Yahoo Sports:

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Caron Butler is out. What next for the Mavericks?

By Kelly Dwyer

It's unfortunate that the possible season-ending injury to Caron Butler(notes) forces us to bring up the annual re-establishing of the fact that Caron Butler (sorry) isn't as great as most people peg him to be.

He's pretty good, no doubt, as a scoring threat for the 25-8 Mavs. Butler's 15 points in 30 minutes a game is nothing to sneeze at, especially as he shot a respectable 45 percent from the floor and a fantastic 43 percent (a career-high) from long-range. He wasn't doing anything else for the Mavs, but that was perfectly passable. The team wasn't asking him to do anything else beyond defending and being that other guy offensively.

And this bleeds into an area that I think the advanced stats crowd often forgets about. Sure, Butler was downright average, even as he helped the Mavs this year. He worked a 14.9 PER -- the very definition of average -- while defending well. Scored pretty efficiently, and little else. But he also brought that work consistently. Sure, it was mainly on midrange jumpers, but he kept nailing those midrange jumpers. Along with that hot 3-point stroke -- even if, as I'm sure the stat-breathing brethren will assume, the other shoe was about to drop on that improved percentage.

But he was there every night, pulling this stuff off. Stats like these are usually produced by wing guys who are all over the place with their contributions, but Butler failed to hit double-digit points just three times this season (averaging 7.3 points in those three turns). As a rule, he was in the corner, hitting jump shots, scoring from long range, providing that steady option after all the passes didn't produce.

He was a minutes-sopper, if only for 30 a night. And on a team hurting for depth, that's important. Sure, he was an average player this season (Mavs fans -- "average" doesn't mean "bad," it just means a guy who puts together 15-point games), but the Mavericks needed that stability. And they will have an uneasy time replacing it.

This is where the trade rumors pop up, and this is where people will get it all wrong. Andre Iguodala(notes) won't help here. He's a fine player with many talents and a huge improvement on Butler as an asset. But he needs the ball. And on a team with Jason Kidd(notes) and Jason Terry(notes) running things, with Dirk Nowitzki(notes) needing his space, Andre Iguodala isn't exactly going to fit in on the baseline, pulling up for that twice-a-quarter baseline jumper.

Carmelo Anthony(notes) can pull up for quite a lot, but because the Denver Nuggets are asking to be turned into the 1992-1998 Dallas Cowboys, don't expect the Mavs to pull a deal for the disgruntled Nuggets forward. And though an injury exception could help, if Butler indeed does miss the rest of the season, there isn't much to trade for even at $5.3 million.

So the Mavs will have to look internally. And despite this team's lack of depth, this isn't a bad thing.

Because they'll have to keep riding DeShawn Stevenson's(notes) career year. For whatever reason, the Mavericks wing is shooting better than Butler both from the field and from behind the arc. He can't create his shot as well as Butler, but that might change soon with more minutes and responsibility. There's no telling if this will keep up, but players usually don't see their field goal percentages go down ... just 'cause. Don't listen to them when they try to offer some vague idea that has Stevenson going south just because he's going to get more minutes.

And don't listen to Marc Stein when he says this:

But first Dallas A) eagerly awaits Dirk Nowitzki's expected return from a sprained knee this week to get the offense closer to normal looking and B) hopes Shawn Marion(notes) can keep stepping in for Butler like he did Sunday night in Cleveland when the former All-Star led the Mavs with 22 points.

The problem there, though, is that asking Marion to play small forward cuts into his minutes at power forward, which has proven to be his more productive position.

OK, listen to the part about Dirk.

But Marion?

I know it sounds right that Marion (working in his 30s now) would play better at the power forward slot, but Stein (a great reporter, but not much of an analyst) has often been wrong about what "sounds right" analytically since he left his Mavericks beat gig years ago. A few games spent watching the Mavs or a 30-second trip to 82games.com will tell you that Dallas has performed much better with Marion at small forward, and, individually, the veteran has performed much better defensively as a small forward this year. Better offensively, as well.

This is the team that has been without Rodrigue Beaubois(notes) all year, while still racking up a 25-8 record. It's been without Nowitzki for the last week, while still performing admirably. This team's depth doesn't appear all that great on paper, at least to start the year, but Rick Carlisle has done a brilliant job putting it all together. This is a team that can survive.

Losing Caron hurts, no doubt, but his contributions are quite replaceable. We respect what he's brought to the table, but we're not going to be part of that too-easy chorus that points to his absence any time the Mavericks lose to a better team this season.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba-302817
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:13 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by LonghornDub View Post
Jackson was always a bonehead, but he was a different player under Pop than he is now. You guys all remember when Josh Howard wasn't a shotchucker and was a very effective energy guy. Jackson used to be much more efficient too (although his game differs from Josh's).

Jackson would bring certainly things to the table that I very much like, but it makes no sense to say, "Caron takes too many jumpers and is inefficient" and then say, "Let's get Stephen Jackson!"
Jax left SA and Pop. Dallas fired Avery......i guess they both lost the disciplinarian in their games.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:25 PM   #78
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[QUOTE=LonghornDub;1143141]
Quote:
I have no idea what the first thing you wrote means. None whatsoever. "What I wanted to do"?
Shoot down players that people throw out there as possibilities for replacing Butler

Quote:
As for the rest, no, of course that's not the attitude. The attitude is, first, we see what Butler's timetable is. If it's not a whole-season injury, we are probably better off just waiting on him, unless some as-of-yet unapparent trade option presents itself.

Then, if it is a whole-season injury, we obviously have to look at our options, which unfortunately will almost surely be comprised entirely of players who don't fit the criteria you listed
You keep saying the criteria I listed..it's not that complicated, especially given a)Butlers style of play. b) IF he comes back this year he might not even be what he was before the injury.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:34 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by LonghornDub View Post
Interesting take from Kelly Dwyer of Yahoo Sports:
Dwyer's big point is right - Butler's not as good a player as we need in our Robin, and he's taking too many jumpshots to be that player anyway, and his averages are likely to come down anyway, anyway. And Dallas is looking weak if they don't have the ability (or stones) to trade for a playah player.

But Dallas lacks depth?? Any team that's got a first 3 off the bench as as good as Terry, Marion, and Haywood is [also] a pretty deep team.

And what's that line about playing admirably while Dirk's been out? By my count, they've played 50% admirably and 50% crapably.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:38 PM   #80
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But Dallas lacks depth?? Any team that's got a first 3 off the bench as as good as Terry, Marion, and Haywood is [also] a pretty deep team.

And what's that line about playing admirably while Dirk's been out? By my count, they've played 50% admirably and 50% crapably.
Dwyer (a mediocre reporter, and not much of an analyst)
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