Caron Butler´s injury Thread

[Bayliss]

Dallas is deep! Dallas is stacked! Unfortunately the way Dallas is stacked is like Jenga. And once a piece is removed.... it is no longer "stacked."

And had Stevenson not turned his game around and Butler still performing like he was early in the season... the Mavs would be a middle of the pack team. Yeah, yeah, I know... if and buts and candy and nuts...

Noe are the Mavs really deep with Caron hurt? Nope.

And where the hell is news on his injury? Damn, it doesn't take that long for an MRI does it?

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

You keep saying the criteria I listed..it's not that complicated, especially given a)Butlers style of play. b) IF he comes back this year he might not even be what he was before the injury.

I don't know what you mean by "it's not that complicated." You listed some criteria, which I agree with. I asked who might be available that meets those criteria. You didn't answer, which is fine, but I'm not complicating the issue. It was a very simple question.

Yeah, we can trade Butler for just "someone." That may well be what we do if he's out for the year. But if there's some possibility he can return, we have to carefully consider whether we want to trade him for someone who does not meet those criteria you listed.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Dwyer (a mediocre reporter, and not much of an analyst)

Agree.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I don't know what you mean by "it's not that complicated." You listed some criteria, which I agree with. I asked who might be available that meets those criteria. You didn't answer, which is fine, but I'm not complicating the issue. It was a very simple question.

Yeah, we can trade Butler for just "someone." That may well be what we do if he's out for the year. But if there's some possibility he can return, we have to carefully consider whether we want to trade him for someone who does not meet those criteria you listed.

I did answer just not the one you wanted. I also didn't feel like being lambasted for throwing out names.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Dallas is deep! Dallas is stacked! Unfortunately the way Dallas is stacked is like Jenga. And once a piece is removed.... it is no longer "stacked."

And had Stevenson not turned his game around and Butler still performing like he was early in the season... the Mavs would be a middle of the pack team. Yeah, yeah, I know... if and buts and candy and nuts...

Noe are the Mavs really deep with Caron hurt? Nope.

And where the hell is news on his injury? Damn, it doesn't take that long for an MRI does it?

Dirk is the only piece for which your first point is true. The Mavs are thin only at the very top of the depth chart. For the top of the bench, bottom of the starters group, they are stacked enough that they've been able to fill out an elite level of starters with whichever "average" player is playing over his head at the time, and still have a full rotation good enough to keep them in the top 5 teams in the league.

And good grief - he said dallas was thin on paper to start the year. I guess that was when Robo was off the paper, Dojo was on the D-league roster, Caron's injury was already written down, and the starred note at the bottom of the page was Haywood's attitude. Double arrgh and an extra good grief! Where Dallas isn't a deep team, it's due to stuff that's happened off paper, not on.

[MavsFTR]

There will be no announcement on Caron Butler's injury today. He's still being evaluated.

[Rick41]

No news is good news?

[dalger]

Originally Posted by Bayliss

Dallas is deep! Dallas is stacked! Unfortunately the way Dallas is stacked is like Jenga. And once a piece is removed.... it is no longer "stacked."

True, and that's why Dwyer's remark that Butler's contributions were "quite replaceable" is hardly accurate. We've only had a 3-men rotation at the forward spots so far this season. With Caron out, there's actually a severe lack of depth at the 4 and and the 3 and you have to wonder who's going to fill the hole. Cardinal?

On top of that, we're down to Jet as our second option on offense which isn't exactly promising given his occasional no-shows. Butler's been an efficient scorer this season as well as an insurance policy.

Going into the playoffs with a streaky Jet and a somewhat-unproven Roddy behind Dirk might be enough to beat a good team, but it's not enough to win a championship. Having Butler out there would definitely help us offensively and increase our margin of error.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by dalger

True, and that's why Dwyer's remark that Butler's contributions were "quite replaceable" is hardly accurate. We've only had a 3-men rotation at the forward spots so far this season. With Caron out, there's actually a severe lack of depth at the 4 and and the 3 and you have to wonder who's going to fill the hole. Cardinal?

On top of that, we're down to Jet as our second option on offense which isn't exactly promising given his occasional no-shows. Butler's been an efficient scorer this season as well as an insurance policy.

Going into the playoffs with a streaky Jet and a somewhat-unproven Roddy behind Dirk might be enough to beat a good team, but it's not enough to win a championship. Having Butler out there would definitely help us offensively and increase our margin of error.

Revisit Tim Thomas or talk Sheed out of retirement?

[dalger]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Revisit Tim Thomas or talk Sheed out of retirement?

If Caron was out for the season, I guess we'd have to think bigger than that and trade his expiring contract, which is everything he would be at this point with a season-ending injury, for a guy who could help immediately. Stephen Jackson has been talked about around here and would be a decent replacement due to being versatile and allowing Marion to switch to the 4 and back up Dirk. Only, of course, if getting him didn't require to give up Roddy or another important piece.

Our rotation at the forward spots is quite concerning without Butler. There's only Cardinal left and some out-of-position options like Mahinmi, DeShawn or Dojo. Despite having Dirk, Marion and Butler under contract during the summer, our main priority was to sign another forward like Haslem or Harrington due to a lack of depth in that area. Missing Butler for the remainder of the season would only worsen the situation.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I did answer just not the one you wanted. I also didn't feel like being lambasted for throwing out names.

Well, no, you didn't. And I didn't "want" any particular answer, I just was hoping for something that actually responded to my question. If you had a name or two that would fulfill the criteria we talked about, I genuinely wanted to know.

If you don't care to answer, that's obviously your call, but don't make it out like you gave me a responsive answer and I rejected it.

[DTown All Day]

This injury could become a blessing in disguise

Maybe we would now give more consideration to trading Caron's expiring pact for somebody like Rip Hamilton, SJax, Kirk Hinrich......who are all much better fits for this team than Caron

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by DTown All Day

This injury could become a blessing in disguise

Maybe we would now give more consideration to trading Caron's expiring pact for somebody like Rip Hamilton, SJax, Kirk Hinrich......who are all much better fits for this team than Caron

Hinrich is a better fit than Caron for a team that's overloaded on combo guards? For a team that now has a grand total of two healthy true forwards who can confidently be said to be rotation players? Try again.

[GermanDunk]

Anyway. If Caron does not return until the end of March we can punt the season. That´s it.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Well, no, you didn't. And I didn't "want" any particular answer, I just was hoping for something that actually responded to my question. If you had a name or two that would fulfill the criteria we talked about, I genuinely wanted to know.

If you don't care to answer, that's obviously your call, but don't make it out like you gave me a responsive answer and I rejected it.

Let me settle your confusion. I didn't give you a responsive answer *because* you would have rejected it, any of them. Thats where it seemed like you were headed with your response originally. I thought you were just looking for an argument, not ideas for a resolution. In fact that did happen pretty quickly with the Stephen Jackson comment, You quickly hammered Mavs777. If I'm wrong sue me.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

Anyway. If Caron does not return until the end of March we can punt the season. That´s it.

Sorry, but no. While Caron was definitely playing better after the rough start, he wasn't really an impact player for us. His advanced stats - or the good old eye test for that matter - doesn't really indicate that Butler was even our fourth most important player.

Dirk, Kidd, and Chandler's impact definitely more valuable to this team than his, after that, i would surely put Marion ahead him (Marion's +- numbers i think also a lot better than Butler's, i know, i know...) he's really not a special defender, and he's a mediocre scorer at this point in his career.

He can't really get to the line, his improved long ball was valuable to us though, i give you that. Marion, imo is a much more impactful player. So are we really doomed? No, not really. Let's see the candidates. Jackson? A much better playmaker and defender than Butler. Igoudala? A much better defender and penetrator.

Wallace? A much better defender, a better rebounder, and a more efficient scorer. I'm not saying we have a great chance at all of those players. But i think we can definitely trade for Jackson, without giving up Roddy. Wallace, and Igoudala? Well, those are tougher to get i think. I know i don't want Rip Hamilton, that's for sure.

Just want to add, i didn't want to bash Caron, he's just not that impactful (if that's a word) in my book, and i think there are realistically obtainable players out there, who are better fits, and can make this team even better.

[tgfan]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

Anyway. If Caron does not return until the end of March we can punt the season. That´s it.

O ye of little faith. That's no way to talk! Mavs will find a way.

[dalger]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Hinrich is a better fit than Caron for a team that's overloaded on combo guards? For a team that now has a grand total of two healthy true forwards who can confidently be said to be rotation players? Try again.

Indeed. We don't need another guard at the moment, at least not to replace Caron. Our depth chart looks like this:

C: Chandler, Haywood, Mahinmi, Ajinca

F: Dirk, Marion, Butler, Cardinal, Novak

G: Kidd, Jet, Roddy, Stevenson, JJB, Dojo

If anything, we need another small forward to at least have a quality 3-men rotation again, and even then you're praying for all three guys to stay healthy due to a lack of alternatives.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Let me settle your confusion. I didn't give you a responsive answer *because* you would have rejected it, any of them. Thats where it seemed like you were headed with your response originally. I thought you were just looking for an argument, not ideas for a resolution. In fact that did happen pretty quickly with the Stephen Jackson comment, You quickly hammered Mavs777. If I'm wrong sue me.

I certainly was (and am) skeptical that you could name anybody. But that doesn't mean I was looking for an argument. Optimistically, I was hoping you could name someone I hadn't thought of. I miss things all the time.

And look, as far as Stephen Jackson (or more generally, being "lambasted" for naming players) goes, what do you expect? This isn't even directed at you in particular, but people name some downright silly trade targets. What's worse, people will often explicitly list the criteria we might be looking for (as you did), then name players who don't even come close to fitting those criteria. GMC just pointed out an instance of this happening.

Besides, much more important than what names you throw out there is how you back up those names. If you say, "I want Stephen Jackson because he's intimidating, tough, and not scared of big shots," you sound very persuasive. If you say, "I want Stephen Jackson because Caron takes too many jumpshots and is inefficient," you sound like you don't even know who Stephen Jackson is. Same thing with Iggy, Kevin Martin, or anyone else who's already been named. I'm sure as hell not going to "lambast" you for any name if you give a good reason or two why that name is a good option.

[GermanDunk]

Yes, if there was a better player available, we´ve had picked him over Caron. Probably. But in our situation he is the missing link. As you mentioned Jackson. Jackson came into my mind several times today and Phil! Jackson is right. I am spending HOURS, NIGHTS and WEEKENDS since whatever in front ofr my fucking monitor to catch Mavs Basketball and i AM really pissed !!!!
And my Soccer team delivered only 5 wins out of 17 f games, too with a roster worth 140 f mn. €. I´m really, really pissed.

[Budapest Maverick]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Jackson takes more than double the shots of butler in the key

In Charlotte. He would get much better looks here, and obviously wouldn't shoot nearly as much. He's not exactly a penetrator, but he's a much better defender than Butler, and a much better passer. Are those qualities make him a better fit?

I think maybe, altough, Igoudala would obviously be a better option, but that's probably not gonna happen. Gerald Wallace, Deng, RIP Hamilton, who we have a chance at realistically?

[iella]

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

Yes, if there was a better player available, we´ve had picked him over Caron. Probably. But in our situation he is the missing link. As you mentioned Jackson. Jackson came into my mind several times today and Phil! Jackson is right. I am spending HOURS, NIGHTS and WEEKENDS since whatever in front ofr my fucking monitor to catch Mavs Basketball and i AM really pissed !!!!
And my Soccer team delivered only 5 wins out of 17 f games, too with a roster worth 140 f mn. €. I´m really, really pissed.

GD, I don't think I've ever seen you so angry...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by iella

GD, I don't think I've ever seen you so angry...

I love it. Love the passion.

[Kidd Karma]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

In Charlotte. He would get much better looks here, and obviously wouldn't shoot nearly as much. He's not exactly a penetrator, but he's a much better defender than Butler, and a much better passer. Are those qualities make him a better fit?

I think maybe, altough, Igoudala would obviously be a better option, but that's probably not gonna happen. Gerald Wallace, Deng, RIP Hamilton, who we have a chance at realistically?

Realistically, Jax, Rip, Wallace, Deng, in that order.

[Usually Lurkin]

Originally Posted by Kidd Karma

Realistically, Jax, Rip, Wallace, Deng, in that order.

Melo

[BGMaverick9]

Luckily, my scheduling worked out right so I will be at the AAC to cover all of the events leading up to the usual pregame stuff. If anything, news-wise, breaks, I'll be sure to let everyone know.

[GermanDunk]

Originally Posted by iella

GD, I don't think I've ever seen you so angry...

Yeah. My violent era lasted 2 minutes whena i punched a classmate right in his face after he hit me in the face with a snowball, but right now, thank god no one is in my way. The only success this year is my 3rd place in the Pro Football Pick ´em, least outscoring 15 US citizens and one Japonese. That´s it for this shit year.

Phil Jackson knows Basketball.

[fluid.forty.one]

hahaha

[SMC0007]

[QUOTE=LonghornDub;1143201]

I certainly was (and am) skeptical that you could name anybody. But that doesn't mean I was looking for an argument. Optimistically, I was hoping you could name someone I hadn't thought of. I miss things all the time.

Whats wrong with the names you thought of?

And look, as far as Stephen Jackson (or more generally, being "lambasted" for naming players) goes, what do you expect? This isn't even directed at you in particular, but people name some downright silly trade targets. What's worse, people will often explicitly list the criteria we might be looking for (as you did), then name players who don't even come close to fitting those criteria. GMC just pointed out an instance of this happening.

I'll agree that there are people that do that. However, in this case there was a small criteria that I listed and then you say imo a sort of condescending manner "name a player that fits ..." and someone does just that and says Stephen Jackson, I think it's plenty safe to assume they are specifically talking about the previously mentioned criteria. I don't think in that instance he needed to restate what I just said to make it more clear.

Besides, much more important than what names you throw out there is how you back up those names. If you say, "I want Stephen Jackson because he's intimidating, tough, and not scared of big shots," you sound very persuasive. If you say, "I want Stephen Jackson because Caron takes too many jumpshots and is inefficient," you sound like you don't even know who Stephen Jackson is. Same thing with Iggy, Kevin Martin, or anyone else who's already been named.

Concur

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Whats wrong with the names you thought of?

They're all the same ones who have been tossed around here for awhile (Iggy, Melo, etc.). I see substantial problems with many of them. At least one is actually quite appealing (Kevin Martin), but we're just not going to get him for Caron and Haywood, or whatever. The Rockets are steadily improving and we'd have to go a lot deeper into our talent pool to make that happen.

Originally Posted by SMC0007

I'll agree that there are people that do that. However, in this case there was a small criteria that I listed and then you say imo a sort of condescending manner "name a player that fits ..." and someone does just that and says Stephen Jackson, I think it's plenty safe to assume they are specifically talking about the previously mentioned criteria. I don't think in that instance he needed to restate what I just said to make it more clear.

It wasn't condescending, it was just doubtful. Call me a pessimist, but I just don't see what the Mavs can do in the current market with an injured Butler as their trade chip. That doesn't mean I'm definitely right, but that was kinda the point: I was hoping that you had some idea I'd missed.

As for Jackson, my whole thing is he doesn't fit the criteria you listed, because he's not a guy who's going to take it to the hoop and get to the line much (which in your own words was the first thing you said, right?). I think he fits some other important criteria very, very well, but he's not any better of a penetrator than Caron.

I'm not necessarily saying it'd be a horrible thing to have him on the squad, but if we're really focused on what you said we needed (which again, I think is probably exactly what we need), I really don't think he's the answer.

[mavs777]

Originally Posted by Budapest Maverick

In Charlotte. He would get much better looks here, and obviously wouldn't shoot nearly as much. He's not exactly a penetrator, but he's a much better defender than Butler, and a much better passer. Are those qualities make him a better fit?

I think maybe, altough, Igoudala would obviously be a better option, but that's probably not gonna happen. Gerald Wallace, Deng, RIP Hamilton, who we have a chance at realistically?

I meant 28 % of his shots are in the key, for comparisons sake Butler has 13% of his shots in the key

[CadBane]

Dwyer is a complete idiot, most of his articles are terrible. And I wouldn't call 1-3 without Dirk "admirable".

[mavs777]

Jackson is a better penetrater than Butler plus if you play him at the 2 you can put him on the block often and cause doubles

[Rick41]

Originally Posted by mavs777

Jackson is a better penetrater than Butler

That's what she said. Or you?

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

They're all the same ones who have been tossed around here for awhile (Iggy, Melo, etc.). I see substantial problems with many of them. At least one is actually quite appealing (Kevin Martin), but we're just not going to get him for Caron and Haywood, or whatever. The Rockets are steadily improving and we'd have to go a lot deeper into our talent pool to make that happen.



It wasn't condescending, it was just doubtful. Call me a pessimist, but I just don't see what the Mavs can do in the current market with an injured Butler as their trade chip. That doesn't mean I'm definitely right, but that was kinda the point: I was hoping that you had some idea I'd missed.

As for Jackson, my whole thing is he doesn't fit the criteria you listed, because he's not a guy who's going to take it to the hoop and get to the line much (which in your own words was the first thing you said, right?). I think he fits some other important criteria very, very well, but he's not any better of a penetrator than Caron.

I'm not necessarily saying it'd be a horrible thing to have him on the squad, but if we're really focused on what you said we needed (which again, I think is probably exactly what we need), I really don't think he's the answer.

Now that Caron is injured I think Jackson and a few of the other mentioned guys are more appealing. I don't think he is the answer in a scenario where were moving a player that is healthy, known to be a good guy and swell in the locker room, doesn't fight in the stands, you know what you are gonna get on the floor even if it's not a perfect fit etc. But in a scenario where Caron is out and may not be back in time or be back at the level he was at all (which we still don't know yet?) Jackson looks really intriguing.

His specialty may not be drive to the hole like a Maggette but I think he can, even if it's only slightly better than Butler. I think he finishes in the paint and at the rim a little better too. He's a better passer as well. He also has an edge about him similar to T.C., the guy has heart and fire. The downside is will he come here and fit in? Not rock the boat and spill crazy all over the place. Chemistry is a big deal here on and off the court. Could he stay within the offense and not jack up shots etc... He might be the most risky of them all, but it could have the biggest reward.

[tcat075]

Deng was mentioned above.

Someone mind explaining to me why the division leading Bulls would want to trade away their 18 ppg (46%/37%) swingman who is third on their team in scoring?

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by SMC0007

Now that Caron is injured I think Jackson and a few of the other mentioned guys are more appealing. I don't think he is the answer in a scenario where were moving a player that is healthy, known to be a good guy and swell in the locker room, doesn't fight in the stands, you know what you are gonna get on the floor even if it's not a perfect fit etc. But in a scenario where Caron is out and may not be back in time or be back at the level he was at all (which we still don't know yet?) Jackson looks really intriguing.

If Caron is out for the year, we obviously have to do something. Whether it's Jackson or whatever. Earlier, I was speaking in the context of what we do if Butler is out for awhile, but not the whole season.

Originally Posted by SMC0007

His specialty may not be drive to the hole like a Maggette but I think he can, even if it's only slightly better than Butler. I think he finishes in the paint and at the rim a little better too. He's a better passer as well. He also has an edge about him similar to T.C., the guy has heart and fire.

He definitely finishes better, but I don't think he's any better of a penetrator. He gets more FTA's right now because he handles the ball a lot more, which you also see in his TO numbers. We all get pretty frustrated with Butler's random turnovers, and he averages about 1.5 a game. S-Jax averages an astounding 3.5 turnovers per game. That's absolutely awful. You'd have to assume that number comes down if he comes here and is handling the ball less, but you know if you watch him play that the dude is downright careless with the ball at times. That's not going to change.

Chemistry...I have no idea, honestly. That's a dicey proposition. He could really screw up the locker room vibe. On the other hand, he is scary, and I mean that in a good way. I know these guys are all NBA players, but facing off against a guy like that absolutely gets in your head.

Bottom line, I'd do it if Butler is out for the year, simply because we don't have enough years left on this train to not maximize each one. But I'd be very, very hesistant if there's a chance we can have Butler back and ready for the postseason.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by tcat075

Deng was mentioned above.

Someone mind explaining to me why the division leading Bulls would want to trade away their 18 ppg (46%/37%) swingman who is third on their team in scoring?

!

They wouldn't.

And I don't have a ton of interest in dumping young guys like Jones, Roddy, Mahinmi etc plus Butler to rent Melo for a year while KARMA boots us out of the first or second round and Melo goes to NY in the offseason. Then we watch Roddy and Dojo become allstars and Mahinmi as a solid starting center on another team in the future while we struggle to rebuild.

[LetsGoMavs]

offtopic:

Originally Posted by GermanDunk

And my Soccer team delivered only 5 wins out of 17 f games, too with a roster worth 140 f mn. €. I´m really, really pissed.

Werder? If so...: LMAO

ontopic:
I cannot really express how sorry i am for him right now, i mean he finally seemed to got accustomed/settled in...

... just terrible to see him go down like that.

And man, remember also how he left the game:
Mad respect goes out to him for actually walking off the court and to the locker room after potentially rupturing his effing patella tendon - that must have hurt like ****.


edit:
Even if it sounds ridiculous right now (especially after our...ummm...unimpressive last three games) - we should all try to avoid panicking until someone gives us a real diagnosis.

[SMC0007]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

If Caron is out for the year, we obviously have to do something. Whether it's Jackson or whatever. Earlier, I was speaking in the context of what we do if Butler is out for awhile, but not the whole season.



He definitely finishes better, but I don't think he's any better of a penetrator. He gets more FTA's right now because he handles the ball a lot more, which you also see in his TO numbers. We all get pretty frustrated with Butler's random turnovers, and he averages about 1.5 a game. S-Jax averages an astounding 3.5 turnovers per game. That's absolutely awful. You'd have to assume that number comes down if he comes here and is handling the ball less, but you know if you watch him play that the dude is downright careless with the ball at times. That's not going to change.

Chemistry...I have no idea, honestly. That's a dicey proposition. He could really screw up the locker room vibe. On the other hand, he is scary, and I mean that in a good way. I know these guys are all NBA players, but facing off against a guy like that absolutely gets in your head.

Bottom line, I'd do it if Butler is out for the year, simply because we don't have enough years left on this train to not maximize each one. But I'd be very, very hesistant if there's a chance we can have Butler back and ready for the postseason.

Yep. I think we're in a position where it has to almost be guaranteed that he'll be ok and back for the playoffs. If word comes back that the injury is one where it's questionable that he comes back before the playoffs or maybe he could play but it depends on how he heals it leaves mbt in a very difficult position. The trade deadline will come and go before you know it and there won't be any going back once it's past. No do-overs if he isn't ready to roll at the end of the reg season.

I like Butler, I mean he seems like a good guy and I hate to up and move a guy like that who is willing to do almost anything for your team that just had some horrible luck but this is about Dirk to me. If Dirk is fully healthy and good to go surely you have to make a move to keep things going. Imo, not for Melo for half a season but make a move for a few more years of Dirk ideally.