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oilfieldtrash · 08-10-2012, 06:57 AM

Big difference was that the mavs had already shown the ability to beat the superteam. Cuban outsmarted his self and it might be another decade before we're seriously contending for a title.

dalger · 08-10-2012, 07:48 AM

I find solace in the fact that we've won the championship at just about the perfect time. One and done boys? Who cares! We were already considered to be in "win now" mode in 2009 and it was to be expected that we wouldn't be able to compete for consecutive seasons with a core as old as ours. Honestly, pretty much no one even gave us a shot in 2011 and we were fortunate that our veterans were able to collectively perform at the level they did last year.

While I do believe that letting Chandler walk was a mistake (easy to make that assessment in hindsight, I know...), even that move most likely wouldn't have kept us in contention anyway in light of the latest Lakers transactions and the improvements in Miami and OKC.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 09:17 AM

The biggest cluster is cubes thinking he is such hot stuff that if he just gets the cap space all of the fa's will come a'knocking. At the end of the day you still need assetts to make trades. When you get rid of all assetts, you got squat. You think he would have learned that with Nashie. You don't let assetts go for nothing, but he is the smartest guy in the room after all...so...

And that is what happened, the mavs got squat on.

DevinHarriswillstart · 08-10-2012, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

The biggest cluster is cubes thinking he is such hot stuff that if he just gets the cap space all of the fa's will come a'knocking. At the end of the day you still need assetts to make trades. When you get rid of all assetts, you got squat. You think he would have learned that with Nashie. You don't let assetts go for nothing, but he is the smartest guy in the room after all...so...

And that is what happened, the mavs got squat on.

You had an argument before the plan B moves went into motion. Collison, Mayo, Roddy, Kaman, Brand, West, Wright, and VC (right?) are all expirings and on reasonable contracts. THOSE would be assets for a team with a star wanting cap space to start over. Orlando is about to trade Dwight for Afflalo, Harkless and some crappy first rounders. I'd say we are in primed position to make a trade at the deadline.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

You had an argument before the plan B moves went into motion. Collison, Mayo, Roddy, Kaman, Brand, West, Wright, and VC (right?) are all expirings and on reasonable contracts. THOSE would be assets for a team with a star wanting cap space to start over. Orlando is about to trade Dwight for Afflalo, Harkless and some crappy first rounders. I'd say we are in primed position to make a trade at the deadline.

You mean I had an argument before the two free agents we were targeting were off the books? And I don't see anything In that group that anyone would be interested in. They were all available off the scrap heep.

Not a single one of them IMO is of consequence.

oilfieldtrash · 08-10-2012, 09:41 AM

I should of quit watching after the rigged 06 finals. It just boggles the mind how a team in salary cap hell keeps acquiring the best talent available while other teams go.out of their way to facilitate the trades.

LonghornDub · 08-10-2012, 09:49 AM

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DevinHarriswillstart · 08-10-2012, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

You mean I had an argument before the two free agents we were targeting were off the books? And I don't see anything In that group that anyone would be interested in. They were all available off the scrap heep.

Not a single one of them IMO is of consequence.

And who would predict that Joe Johnson or epic failure of Orlando management would have won the day? You're mad because Cuban took risks, but keeping the 2011 team together is just as much of a risk. We live in a superstar team era now and teams will do anything to get them. Just look at Houston gutting their roster for a primed example of that. Houston had a better offer for Orlando and look where it got them. What if Orlando doesn't want Tyson Chandler had the Mavs kept him? Then the Mavs are screwed in cap hell with little way to improve themselves. Risks are risks are risks are risks. It hasn't played out well, but getting mad at Cuban is misguided. He TRIED to get Deron and Dwight.

DevinHarriswillstart · 08-10-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Can we please, please, please not turn this celebratory championship thread into yet another thread where dude complains about the only thing he seems to know how to talk about anymore?

Enough threads have been ruined in the past 6-8 months. Can't we just leave this special one alone?

Fair enough...hard not to get baited by it though. It's pretty irritating. Sad how someone can let something bother them so much. We could be the Magic after all.

sefant77 · 08-10-2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

The biggest cluster is cubes thinking he is such hot stuff that if he just gets the cap space all of the fa's will come a'knocking. At the end of the day you still need assetts to make trades. When you get rid of all assetts, you got squat. You think he would have learned that with Nashie. You don't let assetts go for nothing, but he is the smartest guy in the room after all...so...

And that is what happened, the mavs got squat on.

Well, Deron would be a Mav if the Nets werent able to dump their remaining trash for a borderline allstar JJ. Thanks to the Hawks giving him such a stupid contract that they dump him two years later.

Murphy3 · 08-10-2012, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Can we please, please, please not turn this celebratory championship thread into yet another thread where dude complains about the only thing he seems to know how to talk about anymore?

Enough threads have been ruined in the past 6-8 months. Can't we just leave this special one alone?

Nope.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-10-2012, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

And who would predict that Joe Johnson or epic failure of Orlando management would have won the day? You're mad because Cuban took risks, but keeping the 2011 team together is just as much of a risk. We live in a superstar team era now and teams will do anything to get them. Just look at Houston gutting their roster for a primed example of that. Houston had a better offer for Orlando and look where it got them. What if Orlando doesn't want Tyson Chandler had the Mavs kept him? Then the Mavs are screwed in cap hell with little way to improve themselves. Risks are risks are risks are risks. It hasn't played out well, but getting mad at Cuban is misguided. He TRIED to get Deron and Dwight.

Agree 100%. I seriously don't get the perception among so many Mavs fans that keeping the 2011 squad together was anything but a bad idea. That roster accomplished a wonderful, wonderful thing, but it was not going to even come remotely close to duplicating that success. It boggles my mind that people seem to actually think that simply holding onto Tyson Chandler would have kept us in the title hunt. Frankly I think we'd be only marginally better on the court. Even with Chandler, we're still a mediocre team, and we still have to rebuild completely in the next couple of years; the only difference is that with Chandler, we have no room to maneuver and are stuck in mediocrity for a considerably longer time.

Rolling the dice on Deron/Dwight was the only logical choice. They took a shot and they missed. It sucks. But the way I see it, the Mavs had very, very little to lose. At least this way they can still take another shot in the near future.

Murphy3 · 08-10-2012, 11:24 AM

Yep, surely it was the only "logical" choice...

Alot of people simply don't agree with you. Why is it so far fetched to believe that the Mavs couldn't have been right back in the thick of it if they would have brought back the team largely intact?

I am not saying that this is what I was advocating.. but it's not a that much of a stretch.. And many believe that the odds of repeating or at least being right there in the WCF or NBA Finals were higher than having a free agent superstar or landing a superstar via trade before the end of Dirk's prime.

BGMaverick9 · 08-10-2012, 11:26 AM

edit

LonghornDub · 08-10-2012, 11:45 AM

Clutch modding.

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 11:46 AM

A big "thank you" to whichever mod pulled this conversation out of the 2011 Championship thread and made a new home for it here... It's a totally legitimate discussion, but it was definitely ill-placed.

Erod · 08-10-2012, 11:48 AM

And Tyson Chandler remains the biggest, and virtually only, free agent that Mark Cuban has ever signed, and it was accidental and for only one year.

Thank you Ross Perot Jr. and Big Nellie for bringing Dirk Nowitzki to Dallas!!

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erod

And Tyson Chandler remains the biggest, and virtually only, free agent that Mark Cuban has ever signed, and it was accidental and for only one year.

Except we traded Dampier's contract for Chandler... And it was deliberate. But, yeah, it was only for one year, so at least SOMETHING in your post is accurate.

BGMaverick9 · 08-10-2012, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erod

And Tyson Chandler remains the biggest, and virtually only, free agent that Mark Cuban has ever signed, and it was accidental and for only one year.

Thank you Ross Perot Jr. and Big Nellie for bringing Dirk Nowitzki to Dallas!!

He was acquired by trade, but sure.

Thespiralgoeson · 08-10-2012, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Why is it so far fetched to believe that the Mavs couldn't have been right back in the thick of it if they would have brought back the team largely intact?

The short answer is that the roster just wasn't that good. (Not to mention how much better the competition got) It amazes me how short peoples' memories are. As soon as that buzzer sounded in game 6, everyone seemed to forget that the Mavs were huge underdogs against both the Heat and the Lakers. What happened last summer was nothing short of a miracle. It was a perfect storm of extremely unlikely double-digit comebacks, and choke-jobs on the part of opponents.

Quote:

And many believe that the odds of repeating or at least being right there in the WCF or NBA Finals were higher than having a free agent superstar or landing a superstar via trade before the end of Dirk's prime.

And those people are wrong. Even with Chandler, I highly doubt the Mavs could've gotten past the Thunder or the Spurs or even the Lakers. Maybe we would've seeded a little higher and managed to get the second round, but that's about it. Landing Deron was a 50/50 shot. The odds of getting back to the finals (or even the WCF) with the same roster from the previous year was considerably lower.

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Even with Chandler, I highly doubt the Mavs could've gotten past the Thunder or the Spurs or even the Lakers.

Totally agree. Jason Kidd had nothing left in the tank last season, so I don't really see how bringing back Tyson Chandler would've helped us beat either of those teams... Plus, Jason Terry way overachieved during our championship run - that guy has never and will never play like that again.

Getting the gang back together wouldn't have "guaranteed" anything other than future payroll restrictions.

oilfieldtrash · 08-10-2012, 12:22 PM

You guys are right. Bringing back that championship team would have been a huge mistake. Going the Lamar Odom, Roddy, and Dojo route was genius.

Murphy3 · 08-10-2012, 12:28 PM

I hate when mods overstep their place..

Murphy3 · 08-10-2012, 12:29 PM

Spiral, you sure think highly of your opinions..

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Totally agree. Jason Kidd had nothing left in the tank last season, so I don't really see how bringing back Tyson Chandler would've helped us beat either of those teams... Plus, Jason Terry way overachieved during our championship run - that guy has never and will never play like that again.

Getting the gang back together wouldn't have "guaranteed" anything other than future payroll restrictions.

So why wouldn't the same Indiana trade been available this year as welll? You may not have gotten brand/kaman/ mayo. But certainly the collison deal was there I expect. I don't understand why folks give the mbt such kudos for putting together a roster after the fact, but somehow if they had Tyson they would have been braindead and stuck with the same team.

There seems to be no reason that they couldn't have been just as creative as they are now, except they would have had a decent center anchoring the thing. And a piece tht would have been valuable in its own right.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The short answer is that the roster just wasn't that good. (Not to mention how much better the competition got) It amazes me how short peoples' memories are. As soon as that buzzer sounded in game 6, everyone seemed to forget that the Mavs were huge underdogs against both the Heat and the Lakers. What happened last summer was nothing short of a miracle. It was a perfect storm of extremely unlikely double-digit comebacks, and choke-jobs on the part of opponents.

And those people are wrong. Even with Chandler, I highly doubt the Mavs could've gotten past the Thunder or the Spurs or even the Lakers. Maybe we would've seeded a little higher and managed to get the second round, but that's about it. Landing Deron was a 50/50 shot. The odds of getting back to the finals (or even the WCF) with the same roster from the previous year was considerably lower.

Your unprovable opinion. With respect to the "miracle" I disagree totally with. Who can know what players may have liked to hitch their wagon up to the Mavs if they truly trying to win instead of gutting the team. It's unknowable.

But we do know where we are right now. A mediocre team that will maybe make 7th and get beat in the first round, probably. Then do it all over again. SSDD

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Totally agree. Jason Kidd had nothing left in the tank last season, so I don't really see how bringing back Tyson Chandler would've helped us beat either of those teams... Plus, Jason Terry way overachieved during our championship run - that guy has never and will never play like that again.

Getting the gang back together wouldn't have "guaranteed" anything other than future payroll restrictions.

There is that effing guarantee word again. It's stupid, it continues to be stupid and will forever be stupid to use guarantee in a sports conversation, it does not exist, anywhere.

You put the best team you can together, lace em up and see what the hell happens...or you quit without trying ( the current Mavs way ).

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:06 PM

With respect to talking about anything else, well, everything else is pretty much meh. The Mavs are no longer playing to win a championship. They don't seem to have a plan that makes any sense to me. Not going for draftees, getting one year players in the hope that a magic unicorn will descend upon them with all of their pixie dust.

That's where we are, talking about mayo,kaman,brand doesn't interest me much because those guys are gone next year as well, looking for the next superstar... And if they aren't then I REALLY do not understand what cubes is doing.

DevinHarriswillstart · 08-10-2012, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

You put the best team you can together, lace em up and see what the hell happens...or you quit without trying ( the current Mavs way ).

They did that! They no only did that, but they tried to get Deron and Dwight in the process. What don't you understand again? This year's team, barring injury, is pretty much guaranteed to be better than last season. What other goal can you have other than getting stars?

Do you really not get that your arguments are equally unprovable? Chandler is not the end all be all player you think he is. He really isn't. He is a really nice player that isn't a superstar. You can talk in circles, but it really won't make what you are saying more compelling.

If Kaman stays healthy, then the Chandler discussion will have run out of steam (if it hasn't already). Kaman isn't quite the rebounder or help side defender, but he is there or better in every other category. And his percentages won't be as high because he takes 7 more fg attempts per game. Why? Because the guy knows how to score. Chandler gives you mostly garbage points, lobs, or put backs. Just give it a chance before you jump off a cliff.

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

So why wouldn't the same Indiana trade been available this year as welll?

Because Mahinmi wouldn't have been worth $16M if Chandler was getting all the playtime... The only reason we landed Collison is because Indy overvalued Ian, which was a direct result of him being showcased last season.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Because Mahinmi wouldn't have been worth $16M if Chandler was getting all the playtime... The only reason we landed Collison is because Indy overvalued Ian, which was a direct result of him being showcased last season.

Again unknowable. With Haywood gone Mahinmi would have gotten plenty of time.

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Again unknowable. With Haywood gone Mahinmi would have gotten plenty of time.

Mahinmi was our #1 center for stretches last season (including the playoffs) - he would have never been so overpaid if he was just mopping up minutes behind Chandler.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

They did that! They no only did that, but they tried to get Deron and Dwight in the process. What don't you understand again? This year's team, barring injury, is pretty much guaranteed to be better than last season. What other goal can you have other than getting stars?

No they did NOT do that. Letting Tyson go for nothing and then getting Odom was NOT putting their best team out there.

Quote:

Do you really not get that your arguments are equally unprovable? Chandler is not the end all be all player you think he is. He really isn't. He is a really nice player that isn't a superstar. You can talk in circles, but it really won't make what you are saying more compelling.

Sure I do, it's all unknowable.. There is one thing I do know, the mavs had the best team in the world..PERIOD. Whether they would have had the best team going forward is unknowable..IMO it's pretty knowable that if they are planning to strip it all down to try and land Deron/Dwight..it's pretty knowable that they were not trying to win it all last year. Do you think they were?

Quote:

If Kaman stays healthy, then the Chandler discussion will have run out of steam (if it hasn't already). Kaman isn't quite the rebounder or help side defender, but he is there or better in every other category. And his percentages won't be as high because he takes 7 more fg attempts per game. Why? Because the guy knows how to score. Chandler gives you mostly garbage points, lobs, or put backs. Just give it a chance before you jump off a cliff.

We will obviously check back in around January. But I don't see it. First I don't think he compliments dirk that well, never has. In fact no low-post scorer who isn't a defensive stud probably would. I was wrong about Al Jefferson for example. Kaman I expect will get beat out by brand for the closing center anyway.

BGMaverick9 · 08-10-2012, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Again unknowable. With Haywood gone Mahinmi would have gotten plenty of time.

Is it exactly knowable that Haywood would have been amnestied last summer?

MavsFTR · 08-10-2012, 03:23 PM

How are all of you idiots basing the decision to not resign our free agents on the events that happened a year later? When Cuban chose not to resign, both Deron and Dwight were on the table. Who could have foreseen the circus that would happen? It was a good decision that did not work. If we kept our old crew there is a good chance that to today we would be complaining of being strapped. At least this way we have flexibility and have a chance to catch a big fish eventually. Some of you do not think about the future and only care about the present.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underdog

Mahinmi was our #1 center for stretches last season (including the playoffs) - he would have never been so overpaid if he was just mopping up minutes behind Chandler.

So they throw in roddy/dojo.. Again the point IS that just because they bring Chandler back they don't stop thinking of ways to improve the team. But somehow the argument is that if chandler is back..then time stops and that's it. That is not it.

And if they are not thinking of stripping the team down, they also look at players that may have longer contracts.

Somehow the MBT would have just become super-stupid if they had a solid center on the team. I don't buy that.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

Is it exactly knowable that Haywood would have been amnestied last summer?

I think if tyson were here it's a pretty "knowable" item.

dude1394 · 08-10-2012, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsFTR

How are all of you idiots basing the decision to not resign our free agents on the events that happened a year later? When Cuban chose not to resign, both Deron and Dwight were on the table. Who could have foreseen the circus that would happen? It was a good decision that did not work. If we kept our old crew there is a good chance that to today we would be complaining of being strapped. At least this way we have flexibility and have a chance to catch a big fish eventually. Some of you do not think about the future and only care about the present.

Yea...all of us idiots who didn't think going after deron/dwight was all that. Silly us.

MavsFTR · 08-10-2012, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Yea...all of us idiots who didn't think going after deron/dwight was all that. Silly us.

Silly you indeed.

Underdog · 08-10-2012, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

No they did NOT do that. Letting Tyson go for nothing and then getting Odom was NOT putting their best team out there.

You're tossing the word "unknowable" around, then acting like the Mavs KNEW that the reigning 6th Man of the Year was going to be a complete bust when he came to Dallas?? Our front office put together a damn good team on paper while still maintaining flexibility to go after Deron and Dwight - the fact that none of that panned out was completely unknowable... Especially the part about Odom - he should've at least helped to mitigate the loss of Tyson Chandler.