To Melo or not to Melo

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

They are neither more or less likely. The PG that has the luxury of playing with (or being) a generational superstar is the most likely PG to win a title.

I find it funny that this exact conversation was taking place in another thread just yesterday.

This is true. And btw I saw in the other thread you said Duncan is top 5 all time. Do you really think that? Because I'd be hard pressed to even come up with an argument for him being top 5.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

This is true. And btw I saw in the other thread you said Duncan is top 5 all time. Do you really think that? Because I'd be hard pressed to even come up with an argument for him being top 5.

Yes, I think so. His longevity puts him ahead of a few guys that had better peaks but shorter careers, in my book. His versatility in his prime, being able to defend PFs and centers is also a big deal.

Its an incredibly subjective argument once you get to the top 10, but I'm pretty sure Duncan goes in my top 5.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Yes, I think so. His longevity puts him ahead of a few guys that had better peaks but shorter careers, in my book. His versatility in his prime, being able to defend PFs and centers is also a big deal.

Its an incredibly subjective argument once you get to the top 10, but I'm pretty sure Duncan goes in my top 5.

Mj and Kareem are a pretty clear cut 1,2 in my opinion(and I can even see an argument for Kareem at 1). Then you have magic and bird who I think are both also pretty clear cut ahead of Duncan. You could maybe argue longevity for putting Duncan over bird, but birds peak was just so great that I can't get there. Then there's Russell and wilt. Shaq was also clearly a better player at his peak and had better durability than I think people remember.

I personally have Duncan behind Hakeem because I think Hakeem was better at literally everything on a basketball court which is rare when comparing great players but i can see the argument in a historical setting for putting Duncan higher.

[endrity]

I am with jthig on this one, Duncan's 2014 title will do wonders for his legacy. Not only is it one more than Shaq, but coming 15 years after his first will suggest that you could build a title winning team around him for much much longer than most players. You could argue that he is the second best big man after Kareem to ever play. Ahead of Wilt, Shaq, Hakeem, Moses.

Russell for me is always difficult to judge because his Celtics teams were so incredibly loaded compared to the rest of the league, and it's clear from highlights that his offensive game was much more limited compared to other greats, that I find it hard to give him too much credit for his 11 titles.

[Five-ofan]

Can you name a single think he did better than dream on the court? Be the roll guy in the pick and roll is the closest I can think of.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Can you name a single think he did better than dream on the court? Be the roll guy in the pick and roll is the closest I can think of.

Compared to 94-95 Dream? Probably nothing. But at his peak, Dream was probably the best centre ever, maybe the best player ever. And I don't think I am exagerating.

Compared to the rest of Dream's career I think Duncan was a much more consistent presence in the box, both on offense and defense. Dream's last few years in Houston and Toronto were just comically bad, Duncan is older now than he was during those years and was still the anchor of the Spurs team that just won a championship against a prime LeBron James.

[Five-ofan]

Originally Posted by endrity

Compared to 94-95 Dream? Probably nothing. But at his peak, Dream was probably the best centre ever, maybe the best player ever. And I don't think I am exagerating.

Compared to the rest of Dream's career I think Duncan was a much more consistent presence in the box, both on offense and defense. Dream's last few years in Houston and Toronto were just comically bad, Duncan is older now than he was during those years and was still the anchor of the Spurs team that just won a championship against a prime LeBron James.

One thing people take for granted about Duncan is how long he's gotten to play non superstar minutes. The last time Duncan avged 35 mpg was the same year we had the antwins. That's crazy. Contrast that with dream who avged nearly 37 mpg in 99 as an old man. Dream was a much better defender(not just shot blocker) for the majority of his career.

I just can't see the logic in saying that 3 years of solid play tacked to the end of an outstanding career outweighs 3 years of crap tacked to the end of the a clearly more outstanding career.

Also if you are using last years title to justify anything for Duncan, Russell has to be higher. Because the spurs title last year was every bit as much of an ensemble title as anything russell did.

[G-Man]

I'm guessing you guys were too young to see Russell play. I was a kid and a Wilt fan. My dad loved B Russell. All His championships went through wilt, the guy who scored 100 points. He may be the reason people say defense wins championships.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

Can you name a single think he did better than dream on the court? Be the roll guy in the pick and roll is the closest I can think of.

Well, he had better rebounding percentages for career and during their peaks. In fact, Duncan is better rebounder *right now* than Hakeem was in 94-95. And not by a little bit. Also better assist percentages (although that's a clearly dicier stat). Very similar TS% numbers. Duncan has a better career PER and they had similar PER's at peak.

Also think you've always underrated Duncan's defense. He hasn't been able to defend PF's for a long time, but he also happens to have played center for most of his career, despite what his tag was. And he was one of the best team defenders of his generation.

He has a truly historic amount of postseason success despite never playing with anyone even approaching a top 50 player (Robinson wasn't near that level for their last title). Go find any other superstar in the history of the NBA that even approached the amount of postseason success Duncan has and you'll find at least one (and often times more than one) top 50-75 player of all time playing next to the main guy.

I don't buy for a second that Hakeem had a "clearly more outstanding peak" than Duncan. I think it's arguable. But clearly? No way.

[endrity]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

One thing people take for granted about Duncan is how long he's gotten to play non superstar minutes. The last time Duncan avged 35 mpg was the same year we had the antwins. That's crazy. Contrast that with dream who avged nearly 37 mpg in 99 as an old man. Dream was a much better defender(not just shot blocker) for the majority of his career.

I just can't see the logic in saying that 3 years of solid play tacked to the end of an outstanding career outweighs 3 years of crap tacked to the end of the a clearly more outstanding career.

Also if you are using last years title to justify anything for Duncan, Russell has to be higher. Because the spurs title last year was every bit as much of an ensemble title as anything russell did.

Yes, Duncan has arguably been better managed. But so what? Without Nellie, Dirk never becomes the iconic player he is today as some dumbass coach would have bulked him up and told him to go close to the basket. That's how the dice rolls sometimes, and what we have right now is a player whose career has clearly been much better in his latter years than Hakeem's.

Also, I disagree with the "clearly more outstanding career" part. I agree that in terms of skill and ability Hakeem did things for those two years that were a hair above Duncan's peak. However 01-04 Duncan was a true statistical monster in the playoffs too, often doing it against prime Shaq as well. He put up some truly astounding stat lines which gave him two straight MVPs, unlike Hakeem. But beyond that? There is little to suggest that Hakeem had a better career still, as Duncan had much more consistent success even beyond the absolute peak of their careers, as evidenced by him having four rings as the clearly best player of his team compared to two.

As for the comparison with Russell, yes his ensemble titles are what made him so highly remember. But the fact than Duncan and Russell could play that role much later in their career, whereas Hakeem declined very rapidly is still a plus for both players. Russell is penalized, in my very humble opinion, by the fact that he never had anything close to a dominating offensive game like other stars do.

[Five-ofan]

I'm not a huge fan of per for Duncan because of how longs he's gotten to play incredibly low minutes. Per generally goes down the more minutes you play. Duncan basically never bad to play tired past the age of 27. That's great management by pop/Buford but it also is a luxury most superstars don't have. There is also the fact that going by per I believe Duncan is 13th all time even given those advantages(no I wouldn't take everyone above him) And while we are pointing out Duncan's superior longevity lets remember that dream is still a decent bit ahead of him in career points and only 500 rebounds behind him. Dream was an elite player from 84-85 to 98-99.

As for rebounding %, that's not entirely fair because it discounts dreams shotblocking. Ultra elite shotblockers will always be dinged a little in rebounding %. I don't think I'm discounting Duncan's d to say that he wasn't as good defensively as arguably the best defensive player in nba history. I do think that his man d is overrated(he hasn't been able to guard pfs for literally a decade) but you are right that he is one of the great team team defenders of all time and I have underrated that. I think Duncan is pretty clearly top 10-12 of all time so we aren't way off, I just don't see how you get him above any of mj/Kareem/bird/magic/Shaq.

The only reason I used dream is that it's very rare to be able to say that one player was better at literally everything.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

I'm not a huge fan of per for Duncan because of how longs he's gotten to play incredibly low minutes. Per generally goes down the more minutes you play. Duncan basically never bad to play tired past the age of 27. That's great management by pop/Buford but it also is a luxury most superstars don't have. There is also the fact that going by per I believe Duncan is 13th all time even given those advantages(no I wouldn't take everyone above him) And while we are pointing out Duncan's superior longevity lets remember that dream is still a decent bit ahead of him in career points and only 500 rebounds behind him. Dream was an elite player from 84-85 to 98-99.

As for rebounding %, that's not entirely fair because it discounts dreams shotblocking. Ultra elite shotblockers will always be dinged a little in rebounding %. I don't think I'm discounting Duncan's d to say that he wasn't as good defensively as arguably the best defensive player in nba history. I do think that his man d is overrated(he hasn't been able to guard pfs for literally a decade) but you are right that he is one of the great team team defenders of all time and I have underrated that. I think Duncan is pretty clearly top 10-12 of all time so we aren't way off, I just don't see how you get him above any of mj/Kareem/bird/magic/Shaq.

The only reason I used dream is that it's very rare to be able to say that one player was better at literally everything.

I don't buy the shot blocking thing accounting for enough of the rebounding difference. It's not as if Duncan isn't a rim protector himself. The fact that Duncan is still an elite rebounder is a big deal and can't be discounted when arguing his merits.

As I said initially, once you get into the top 15 or so it's an incredibly subjective discussion. Comparing players between eras is really difficult. I'll admit, I'm pretty biased against players from the 80's era as I think the game was so much simpler back then. No one played defense even remotely resembling what they have in the game today. They barely played it at all. I honestly find NBA games from the 80's to be borderline boring in their simplicity.

In the end, I just don't think it's crazy at all to put Duncan in the same conversation as the 5 you mentioned (minus MJ). I think his numbers themselves are incredible, his defense is less quantified and often underrated in these kinds of discussions, his versatility is often overlooked (was elite at both PF and C early in his prime and anchored elite teams playing completely opposite styles within his career) and had less elite help than pretty much anyone else in the conversation.

On the flip side, there are a handful of guys even beyond the five you mentioned (including Hakeem) for which a viable argument can be made to be put higher than Duncan. But for me, yes, he's top 5 all time.