Texas - I love living here!!!

[92bDad]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080701/...glary_shooting

Wow, what a story. My sympathy to the criminals, who happen to be illegal aliens, may they RIP.

Thank GOD, I live in Texas, where I can protect myself, my property and that of my neighbors.

[Flacolaco]

The good that SHOULD come out of this, is it should make criminals more aware of what might happen to them if they enter someones home.

But it won't. Because criminals are going to be criminals no matter what, and they don't watch the news, read the internet, or listen to talk radio. So a good awareness tool that might keep other peoples homes safe, turns into just two guys who got shot over a TV or something.

I've been thinking about getting a gun ever since we moved into our house. I don't really know anything about guns, and I've never fired a hand gun before. How would I go about getting started with all of that?

[u2sarajevo]

Come on over to my house Flaco.... I'll show you how to shoot someone at point blank range.

[92bDad]

Being as you stated that you have never owned a gun or even fired a gun, I would recommend that you research and check in with a reputable firing range.

Find out what classes they have to train you on how to own and manage a gun responsibly.

I myself don't own a gun, but I have fired my fair share of guns...back in my Army days and most recently, going to the ranger with my father-in-law.

I took my sons to the range as well and they learned how to handle a gun safely.

My oldest son has a steady hand and kept his shot grouping on a dime!!! He's mentioned wanting to go into the FBI and he seems to have a knack for things that would be needed if you are in the FBI.

I'm going off a bit...bottom line, seek information and training.

Gun ownership is NOT for everyone, but everyone has the right to own guns.

You might say it's a freedom of choice. I wonder what Liberals think of the freedom of choice when it comes to Guns?

[Dr.Zoidberg]

"He was scared. He was in fear of his life," he said.

That´s for sure...

In the 911 call, a dispatcher urges Horn to stay inside his house and not risk lives.

"Don't go outside the house," the 911 operator pleaded. "You're going to get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun. I don't care what you think."

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

After the shooting, he redialed 911. "I had no choice," he said, his voice shaking. "They came in the front yard with me, man. I had no choice. Get somebody over here quick."

WOW, what a hero!

Sounds like a trigger-happy wannabe western freak.

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect themselves if it is reasonable to believe they are in mortal danger.

..., but a defiant Horn confronted the men with a 12-gauge shotgun and shot both in the back.

Yeah, he probably was brutally attacked (in mortal danger) and because of that he shot both of them in the back...

[Flacolaco]

Actually I fired my Uncles 9mm when I was about 12 (don't tell my mom)

And u2...please don't shoot me. It was your wife's idea. I swear.

Yeah, I know I would have to be trained and all of that at a range and whatnot. Just something to think about...

[dude1394]

Don't mess with Texas!

[TripleDipping]

The man took care of some thrash of society. Too bad some would deem his actions as racist.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by TripleDipping

The man took care of some thrash of society. Too bad some would deem his actions as racist.

I don't know how you could call this "racially motivated" - the issue of race was never even brought up in the case...

Although, I do find it interesting that both men were shot in the back, even though the defendant claims it was "self defense" (but then again, when you break into somebody's house, you kinda deserve whatever you have coming to you...)

[TripleDipping]

Always count on the wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Hor...ng_controversy

[dude1394]

Nice shooting brotha'

[GermanDunk]

Shooting from behind is unsportsmanlike. He should have faced the intruder eye to eye or at least asked him to turn around. Clint Eastwood did so.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

I have nothing against someone who protects himself with a gun, if being in mortal danger. But this guy was neither feared nor in mortal danger.

"You want to make a bet?" Horn answered. "I'm going to kill them."

Does this sound like he is frighten? No, it sounds like a person with the intention to kill someone.

Then this man said:

"They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice!"

Oh really?

The detective who witnessed the escalation and shootings said that the two burglars

"received gunfire from the rear"

and stated that the burglars

ignored Mr. Horn's order to freeze

and one of them

ran towards Joe Horn before he angled away from him toward the street when he was shot in the back.

So I would have understand, if the one who ran toward him would have been shot during the forward motion, but this man turned around and ran away from him. So why shoot him??? Mr. Horn was a hunter and so he had at least the choice to shoot them in the leg, if he really wanted to stop them.

What is with the other burglar??? I bet he was very shocked of the reaction of Mr. Horn and immediately ran away too, as he was also shot in the back.

If someone runs away and you shoot him, it´s not an act of protection, it´s premeditated murder.

Of course those two man were criminals, but regarding the detective they didn´t threat Mr. Horn with a gun. They´ve stolen money and jewelry from the neighbor.

A fair punishment for this men would have been prison and deportation.

In fact it was a death penalty for a burglary. Probably you have to be American to understand this, because I don´t. Where is the commensurability for this acting??? Let them run and get arrested by the police. A detective was already there...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

So why shoot him???

So that his miserable self couldn't rob anyone else.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So that his miserable self couldn't rob anyone else.

OK dude, let´s adopt the death penalty for every thief...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

OK dude, let´s adopt the death penalty for every thief...

Did'nt say that, the question is should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Did'nt say that, the question is should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff.

Once again, nobody was stealing HIS stuff...

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Did'nt say that, the question is should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff.

Read my post:

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

I am against guns, but maybe I could acquiesce in shooting a burglar in the legs for example, to stop him and then commit him to the police.

I also have no problem with:

[jthig32]

I have to say, as it pertains to this example, I tend to agree with Zoidberg.

The whole point of the ability to defend your property is to protect yourself against unknown danger. If someone's breaking into your house then you can fire away, without have to first figure out whether this guy is there to take your tv or rape your wife.

And that's cool. I 100% support that.

However, the freedom to see someone breaking into someone else's house, grab your shotguen, go outside, tell the burgulars to freeze, and then shoot them as they run away is really, really pushing it. That's very close to frontier justice.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I have to say, as it pertains to this example, I tend to agree with Zoidberg.

The whole point of the ability to defend your property is to protect yourself against unknown danger. If someone's breaking into your house then you can fire away, without have to first figure out whether this guy is there to take your tv or rape your wife.

And that's cool. I 100% support that.

However, the freedom to see someone breaking into someone else's house, grab your shotguen, go outside, tell the burgulars to freeze, and then shoot them as they run away is really, really pushing it. That's very close to frontier justice.

should you not be able to stop someone who is stealing your stuff?

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by dude1394

should you not be able to stop someone who is stealing your stuff?

They weren't stealing HIS stuff...

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Underdog

They weren't stealing HIS stuff...

Should you be able to stop someone from stealing your stuff?

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

should you not be able to stop someone who is stealing your stuff?

By killing them? It's a pretty slippery slope.

Let's put it this way, if someone wakes up in the middle of the night, walks into his living room, find a dude holding his tv and shoots him in the head...I'm fine with that.

If, in that same scenario, the dude drops the tv, runs out of the house, and the homeowner chases after him and shoots him in the back of the head as he reaches the street...I'm not ok with that.

And that second scenio matches pretty closely what happened in this specific situation.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

By killing them? It's a pretty slippery slope.

Let's put it this way, if someone wakes up in the middle of the night, walks into his living room, find a dude holding his tv and shoots him in the head...I'm fine with that.

If, in that same scenario, the dude drops the tv, runs out of the house, and the homeowner chases after him and shoots him in the back of the head as he reaches the street...I'm not ok with that.

And that second scenio matches pretty closely what happened in this specific situation.

So the guy has your stuff, you tell him to stop and he turns and runs...what then? Do you look really close to be sure he doesnt' still have your 2grand (as these guys did?) Silly imo. The robbers could stay there and be arrested or take a chance..

They chose poorly.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by dude1394

So the guy has your stuff, you tell him to stop and he turns and runs...what then? Do you look really close to be sure he doesnt' still have your 2grand (as these guys did?) Silly imo. The robbers could stay there and be arrested or take a chance..

They chose poorly.

Well, I personally wouldn't kill him just to save my stuff. I'm fine with shooting someone inside your home because it's all about a possible threat.

If he's leaving, empty handed or not, I might be interested in stopping him, but I'm not looking to kill him.

[92bDad]

Those of you who don't believe the guy was in the right and those of you who don't believe in gun justice...

Would you let me know your address and the dates that you or your neighbors will leave your house open.

After all, you are willing to simply give away your stuff to any thief who doesn't threaten your safety. I'll come over unarmed, walk in, look around and take what I want. I promise I wont hurt you, I'm just there to take the stuff you don't want to defend against.

For those of you who take these boards to seriously...I'm just kidding, I am not a thief and I respect another persons property...I'll even be willing to defend mine and my neighbors property if I know something is going on.

[u2sarajevo]

Doctor..... I'd stay clear away from Texas if I were you.

They were given fair warning to not move or else meet their maker. They made their decision.

I have no sympathy what so ever for those two. And you can bet your bottom dollar if it were me in Mr. Horn's shoes there would still be two dead thieves.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by u2sarajevo

Doctor..... I'd stay clear away from Texas if I were you.

They were given fair warning to not move or else meet their maker. They made their decision.

I have no sympathy what so ever for those two. And you can bet your bottom dollar if it were me in Mr. Horn's shoes there would still be two dead thieves.

Can't agree with this. That's not the purpose of the law, and not how people should interpret it. That's the Wild Wild West.

Now, do I have sympathy for the two people that died? Not really. But I would have sympathy for the poor sap that was trying to get into his house, neighbor mistook him for a burglar, and shot him as he ran away from a man standing in the dark with a shotgun. Unless someone is breaking into your house, with you and your family inside of it, you should not have the right to use stronger force than the police could.

And to 92bDad's point, I 100% believe in gun ownership, gun use, and gun justice under the right circumstances. This was not the correct circumstance, imo.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

I can´t notice any argument which explains, why it is necessary to shoot a thief. I am against guns, but maybe I could acquiesce in shooting a burglar in the legs for example, to stop him and then commit him to the police.

I also have no problem with:

Originally Posted by jthig32

If someone's breaking into your house then you can fire away, without have to first figure out whether this guy is there to take your tv or rape your wife.

To shoot on a burglar, if he runs away from you, in the back, makes you a murderer. And in my world, to kill someone is a much more serious crime then to steal, isn´t it?

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by Dr.Zoidberg

I can´t notice any argument which explains, why it is necessary to shoot a thief. I am against guns, but maybe I could acquiesce in shooting a burglar in the legs for example, to stop him and then commit him to the police.

I also have no problem with:

To shoot on a burglar, if he runs away from you, in the back, makes you a murderer. And in my world, to kill someone is a much more serious crime then to steal, isn´t it?

Having been in that situation before (I was 11.. didn't ahve a gun), trust me.. you really don't have time to figure out what their intentions are. You just hope to God that you or your family isn't going to die. Obviously, this situation that you guys have been discussing is different.. But what you've mentioned in this response, Zoidberg, just isn't possible. First off, most people aren't going to have their wits about them enough to shoot and hit someone in the legs. Also, you just don't have enough time to figure out what their intentions are. It's different if they're already out the door and running towards their car.. but if they're in your house, most people aren't going to be able to keep a calm enough head to sit down and analyze the situation. Trust me... I thought I was going to die during the situation. I thought my entire family was going to die.. Hell, I thought I was going to die for the next month afterwards.

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Having been in that situation before (I was 11.. didn't ahve a gun), trust me.. you really don't have time to figure out what their intentions are. You just hope to God that you or your family isn't going to die. Obviously, this situation that you guys have been discussing is different.. But what you've mentioned in this response, Zoidberg, just isn't possible. First off, most people aren't going to have their wits about them enough to shoot and hit someone in the legs. Also, you just don't have enough time to figure out what their intentions are. It's different if they're already out the door and running towards their car.. but if they're in your house, most people aren't going to be able to keep a calm enough head to sit down and analyze the situation. Trust me... I thought I was going to die during the situation. I thought my entire family was going to die.. Hell, I thought I was going to die for the next month afterwards.

That statement was posted to the particular case of Mr. Horn. I wrote before

(4) To shoot an offender or someone who tries to get in your house and doesn´t stop or go away despite your demand is OK.

Also I have no problem a burglar being shot, if he already is in your house, as you are in mortal danger and you protect your life...

I wrote before:

(6) Mr. Horn is an exception and it was dumb from him to flout the request of the dispatcher not to leave the house.

For me it was not proportional to shoot the burglar, who already ran away from Mr. Horn (despite being covered by law for this). Hence I said, that I could agree to shoot the fleeing burglar in the legs. Mr. Horn was not in mortal danger at this moment, as the burglar ran away. Would Mr. Horn not have hit him in his legs, who cares...

If the burglar would have changed direction and run toward Mr. Horn again, I would agree to a shooting.

And another point.

If I have understood it right, by law the neighbor has to give you the order to protect his property, to be allowed to shoot. From the phone call it became explicit that:

Originally Posted by jthig32

1. He doesn't know whether his neighbor is home or not (while the burglars are inside the neighbor's house)
2. He doesn't know this particular neighbor very well, and if it was the other neighbor's house being broken into, he would already be over there.

So for me it´s clear he didn´t get an order of the neighbor, to portect the property and therewith violated the law, as he tried to stop the burglars. He was "lucky" that the burglar entered his property (I can´t notice, if the other man also entered the property of Mr. Horn). Otherwise Mr. Horn would have been arrested.

[wmbwinn]

Britain has strong gun control laws. Frankly, most guns are illegal there.

Many of the anti-gun crowd have said that they wanted to reduce crime by removing firearms. The NRA crowd has said that the gun is only a tool and a criminal will use a different tool if he cannot use a gun. The problem is people, not tools.

Well...

Guess what...

Britain has a knife problem...

-----------------------------------------

LONDON (AFP) - Britain is struggling to get to grips with a surge of fatal knife attacks, which analysts say reflects a growing sense of insecurity on the country's streets.

ADVERTISEMENT

While some say young people are increasingly carrying knives as a fashion item, others say it is simply because they are scared of being attacked and so make sure they are armed.

On Friday police confirmed the death of an 18-year-old in south London, the 21st teenager to die of violence in the British capital this year, amid wider concerns about anti-social behaviour among young people on the streets.

That came after nine people were killed across the country the previous week, including six in only 24 hours.

"We have seen the emergence of a worrying trend in relation to knife crime ," said Scotland Yard's Deputy Assistant Commissioner Alf Hitchcock.

"We see both an intensification in the severity of offending, and a worrying change in the age profile of offenders and victims, which has decreased from mid- to late-teens to early 20s down to early to mid-teens," he added.

Analysts say young people appear to be increasingly worried about their own safety, although Home Office statistics released Thursday showed a nine percent fall in overall crime in England and Wales in the year to March 2008.

"They fear they're going to be attacked themselves," said Professor Gloria Laycock, from the Jill Dando Institute of Crime Science, named after a well-known BBC television presenter who was shot dead on her doorstep in 1999.

"I don't think it's got anything to do with some fundamental social cause like the economy, or poor parenting or anything like that, because it's happened too quickly," she added.

According to a 2006 study compiled for the Home Office, 85 percent of young people who had carried a knife said they did so to protect themselves, while 42 percent of young victims of assault went on to commit an attack themselves.

The most recent crime statistics showed there were 22,151 recorded offences involving knives last year. The highest number -- 7,409 -- was in London.

"They feel they need to have a weapon for their own protection. I think that's really the problem," said Professor Douglas Sharp, head of the Centre for Criminal Justice Policy and Research at Birmingham City University.

"Young people think that life in their particular locality is so dangerous, that there's so much threat around, that when they get into confrontations they expect to be subject to some violence," he added.

But Sharp, a former senior police officer himself, said: "Most of this violence going on is not related to other criminality, is not related to fights over drug territory or anything like that.

"It's to do with fairly mundane disagreements that just get out of hand very quickly."

Another new trend is that recent killings have taken place in public places in busy city centres, outside bars and clubs, as opposed to previously where attacks were more usually the result of domestic disputes.

"This is relatively new. Certainly in the scale we are seeing this at the moment," said Laycock.

"I think it's because it's become a kind of fashion thing. Young people have got this into their head that it's more trendy to have a knife and so they're doing that," she added.

"It has to do with their image, rather than anything more fundamental than that."

This theory would seem to be backed up by media reports, which have included photos taken from social networking sites showing young people proudly wielding knives and even machetes.

But not everyone is convinced that carrying knives is simply to be trendy.

"I don't agree that it's a fashion," said Roger Grimshaw, of the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College, London.

Research showed that young people are "more likely to have been victimised and to fear being attacked. So it's... not a trend. If they feel threatened, they try to reduce the fear by becoming threatening themselves."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080720...h_080720094616

[MavsX]

the bottom line, if we were faced with what Mr. Horn was faced, i think some of us would do the same thing. That Sh*t is scary, at that moment in Mr. Horns life, it was him or the criminals. Looks like Mr. Horn won that battle. And i'd do the same damn thing.

[TripleDipping]

Those guys are repeated offenders, and are part of a burglary ring... killing them shouldn't be a crime.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by TripleDipping

Those guys are repeated offenders, and are part of a burglary ring... killing them shouldn't be a crime.

Mr. Horn had no way of knowing that...

[ty]

No country for old men.

[dalmations202]

This reminds me of an old saying my Great Uncle who was a World War II vet used to tell me.

If you get so drunk that you mistake my houses bedroom window, for your houses front door........then I guess you just shouldn't have gotten that drunk.

----------------------------------------------------

With that said, the guy who called and went looking for the people and then shot them in the back should have dragged them inside, because if he went outside, then it can be claimed that he wasn't in eminent danger and should have defended, not gone after.

This was a very grey area, IMO. I think he was found innocent due to lots of reasons including age, racial makeup, etc. I don't think these things should have been taken into consideration, but I'll bet they were by the jury.

I don't know that 5 out of 10 differing juries would have found him innocent though, just like I don't know that 5 out of 10 would have found him guilty. Strange case.

[92bDad]

Criminals are simply that...they break laws.

Breaking into someone house in Texas has a serious consequence...you might get SHOT!!!

However in other parts of the country, you don't have to worry about it...so perhaps criminals will move out of Texas in order to preserve their own lives.

In the end, Texans are safer as crime goes down.

Now, what do you do with the friends of criminals? What about friends of thieves?

How many people know when something is stolen, but never report it?

How do you report activity that may or may not be questionable?

I would love to see criminals caught, tried, sentenced and have an opportunity to pay their debt to society and hopefully recover and reform to be a healthy productive member of society.

But I equally defend the right for one to defend themselves, their property and their neighbors property.

This incident has to do with one neighbor...this is not about a guy who lives in Dallas, was traveling through Houston, witnessed a robbery and killed someone.

Again this is about a next door neighbor...chances are that these neighbors knew each other!!! In my neighborhood we know each other to the point that we recognize each other and we recognize when someone is a stranger...

that doesn't mean we shoot strangers...but we do ask questions and observe. If I see someone crawling in and out of a window carrying bags of stuff, I'm asking myself, why are they not using the front or back door?

Yes, I would call the police...unfortunately, I don't carry guns in my house, so I would not be able to stop these guys...but If I did, I would at least be in a position to shoot if I felt I needed to.

As for shooting them in the legs, back, head...at that moment the adrenaline is flowing and if I'm shooting, I don't want the criminal to have a chance at coming after me. IMHO, a Gun is for Deadly force...if I'm lucky enough to NOT kill the criminal and they go down unable to keep attacking then great, that's icing on the cake...but if they are killed, then it was there choice, not mine.

It's quite simple...don't Rob a House in Texas and you don't have to worry about getting shot!!!

[Dr.Zoidberg]

Originally Posted by 92bDad

As for shooting them in the legs, back, head...at that moment the adrenaline is flowing and if I'm shooting, I don't want the criminal to have a chance at coming after me. IMHO, a Gun is for Deadly force...if I'm lucky enough to NOT kill the criminal and they go down unable to keep attacking then great, that's icing on the cake...but if they are killed, then it was there choice, not mine.

It's quite simple...don't Rob a House in Texas and you don't have to worry about getting shot!!!

This is the point, the burglars were not coming after Mr. Horn, they ran away from him...

[dalmations202]

Just a FYI -- you are taught to never pull the trigger unless you are willing to KILL.

If you injure, he has a chance to kill you.

Just a note --- never so much as pull a gun on a person you are unwilling to kill unless you are a peace officer. As a civilian, you pull it, you may be shot by anyone including the cop who is looking for the guy who just broke into your neighbors house.