The Official "Knicks to the Lottery" Thread

[MavKikiNYC]

Wasn't that beautiful?---watching Thomas turn on a spit while his reclamation project flopped.

There was a huge buzz down at MSG before the game, and then the ever-deserving NYK fans got pissed on by Zeke's new puppy. The silence was golden.

Marbury souunded like he was in shock afterward--clueless as to what he was up against. He sounded like a lot of Mavs fans on this board: "Things gon' git bettuh. They got to. We jus' gotta play togethuh. It takes time." Time. And talent. And intelligence. And discipline. And hard work. Lots of luck, son.

Classless NYK fans calling for Chaney's head after a loss like that (ironically against JVG, whom they also hated.) I soooo hope Thomas steps in to "coach" this mess--he DESERVES to.

[OutletPass]

I gotta tell ya, Kiki...I used to love the Frazier, Reed, Bradly, DeBusch Knicks...so it's a little sad for me to watch this stuff...BUT...that was ONE HELL of a thrashing that the Rox put on the Knicks...really, just one of the ugliest NBA games that I've seen all year.

I'm glad that you gave that little "game report" ...I bet that there was a buzz in the Garden...BEFORE the game. I'll bet that Zeke is the loneliest guy on the island today...and Layden is smiling....

I hope Knicks fans get better days when Zeke is gone , I really do, but that was just BUTT UGLY.

[OutletPass]

Forgot one thing....., kiki, I'm betting that Zeke will step in as coach...and that he'll get EXACTLY what he deserves.

If you could elaborate for a few minutes...why were the Knicks fans all over Don ? This isn't HIS MESS !!

[MavKikiNYC]

That whole crowd-on-Chaney thing was sick--more than a little "Lord of the Flies".

I haven't necessarily been a big fan of Chaney's. I didn't think he was the right long-term replacement for JVG, but that he was just holding a place, marking time until they NYKs found a big-name coach.

But two things--

1) Chaney has been nothing but class as head coach for the NYKs. He has totally put his head down and tried to make the thing work with the 2nd-tier and 3rd-tier and 4th-tier talent that he was dealt. The results have been totally predictable, but he has been a total pro.

2) And it's 100% true that NONE of the NYKs situation was Chaney's fault. He was coaching through mistakes made by Checketts, JVG, Layden, Dolan et al.

NYK fans were on Chaney for God only knows what reason--in part because the team is playing so bad; in part maybe because Layden appeared to support him. But no way, no how in my book did he deserve that (having fans chant "Fire Don Chaney!" at the Garden, on a nationally televised ballgame). I wouldn't even want to see Nellie go through that, and I think he might even deserve it a little bit.

That incident the other night just cemented for me the fact that I will never be able to bond with NYK fans. What a classless, obnoxious, overrated, mob-mentality, (and frankly racist) bunch of losers they are. They totally deserve the mess they're about to endure with Thomas at the helm. NYKs will not be enjoyable for basketball, but for sheer unbridled schadenfreude, they may have the best act goin'.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC

Classless NYK fans calling for Chaney's head after a loss like that (ironically against JVG, whom they also hated.)

You are way off base there.

New York fans revere Jeff Van Gundy.

And Cheney does deserve to be fired.

[Hitman]

Originally posted by: MavKikiNYC


That incident the other night just cemented for me the fact that I will never be able to bond with NYK fans. What a classless, obnoxious, overrated, mob-mentality, (and frankly racist) bunch of losers they are.

Kiki,

I can understand that you may not be able to bond with New York fans. I myself live in Manhattan and have lived in New York my whole life and I have not really rooted for the Knicks in a while.

However to call the New York Knick fans racist is absolutely senseless.

The New York Knick fans who cheer Latrell Sprewell and call for Keith Van Horn's head are racist?

New York fans will cheer for a winner and it does not matter if they are black, white, blue, red, a good guy, a bad guy, whatever.

That comment is way off base.

[MavKikiNYC]

I'll grant you tha the allusion to racism among NYK fans in the post I made was tangential to the Don Chaney issue, but I'll stand by it based on what I've observed, though perhaps not from the perspective that you're interpreting.

The New York Knick fans who cheer Latrell Sprewell and call for Keith Van Horn's head are racist?

Actually, this is what I'm talking about. NYKs fans, both in MSG and on NYK chatboards, are sickeningly, fawningly pro-streetball/playground player, who almost invariably tend to be African-American, and they show ZERO tolerance for a player who they don't think plays with 'flay-vuh'.

I've seen way too many people identifying themselves as native NY-er NYK fans whose posts are vehmently, resentfully anti-Euro player, and who unwarrantedly assume that these Euro players are 'soft' and not talented enough to justify being in the NBA.

Another case in point was JVG--he had plenty to criticize, but all too often the dissatisfaction with him came expressed in thinly-veily, racist-tinged insults.

Same with Layden--he made plenty of bad decisions, but the abuse and denigration that was heaped on him came with overtly racist slurs--everything from mistakenly labelling him as a Mormon (when in fact the Laydens are Irish-Catholic from Brooklyn, no less), to the characterization of him as a mealy-mouthed whiteboy.

So now the NYKs have Isiah, who both as a player and as a coach has made comments and personnel moves that had people questioning his motives. And now the NYK fans, many of whom are the same ones who rode JVG mercilessly, who narrowly avoided aneurisms when Spreewell was traded for KVH, and who (jokingly?) threatened to lynch Layden are happy. Connect the dots, man.

The thing against Chaney the other night was sick, but I agree that it doesn't appear to've been racially motivated. It was just another reason, in addition to the racism that I've observed, why I think NYK fans are a bunch of moronic, blowhard idiots, falsely convinced of their own superior basketball intellect and sophistication, mistaken in the belief that they DESERVE a winner simply by virtue of being NYers. They have the "winner' they deserve in Thomas, and I'm going to enjoy watching them turn on him and bust his loser a$$ back whence he came.

But I'll stand by my observations.

[Hitman]

I see what you are saying...and I can't say that I disagree much.

[MavKikiNYC]

Vescey seems to agree somewhat re Chaney--don't know whether that's necessarily good or bad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CHANEY'S NO FOOL:
Knicks' roster shake-ups, not Don Chaney, were reason club got pounded at home by Houston Thursday night



January 11, 2004 -- DISPARAGE Don Chaney's coaching and career record to your heart's content, and overreact all you want to Thursday night's mortifying massacre, but I'm still waiting for a detailed explanation on how getting whacked, 111-79, by Jeff Van Gundy's Rockets was his responsibility.
The chants, "Fire Chaney!" and the ruthless eruption by the media to one or two lousy losses only confirms the fallacy that New Yorkers boast the most sophisticated basketball minds.

Oh, I see, it was Chaney's fault Stephon Marbury and Penny Hardaway had no clue where to go on defense or how to provide help. Their teammates were thoroughly thrown out of sync.

"We were constantly looking over our shoulder to see if they were in the right spots," Allan Houston underlined. "It takes time to learn our system and build trust."

Marbury was flat out lost. "I've never been associated with anything like the defense the Knicks play," he told me.

Oh, I see, it was Chaney's fault the Knicks' odious offensive display set hockey ahead 20 years.

Introduce a new starting center, forward or shooting guard in the lineup and key adjustments must be made. Import a playmaker, especially one as complex to decode as Marbury (the Suns were still trying to get attuned in year three), and everything and everyone must undergo a major modification.


"Stephon doesn't know where each of us wants the ball, where our favorite places to get it are," Houston noted. "We were successful recently [four-game win streak] with everyone touching the ball and now we've got a guy who's used to dominating it. We need lots of communication and court time to work this out, no question."

When Amare Stoudemire and Zarko Cabarkapa got injured earlier this season, the Suns' opposition figured out how additionally to disarm them: double Marbury up top with an athletic big man. Which is what the Rockets did from the git-go by sending Kelvin Cato at Marbury as soon as he crossed halfcourt and coerce him to give up the ball.

"That tactic has worked well," Marbury admitted. "The only team that didn't do it was the Clippers and I got 40 [on Dec. 29] on 'em.

"Now that my teammates understand what's happening they'll be more aggressive when I give it up. They can't wait for me to come back and get it, they've got to make quick plays."

Oh, I see, it's Chaney's fault the Knicks aren't blessed with an abundance of dream weavers capable of taking opponents off the dribble and concocting something special.

Thomas has been working three weeks to downgrade that deficiency and upgrade others. It takes time. Counting last night's encounter with the Bucks, the Knicks have had three games to familiarize themselves with each other and for Chaney to alter his philosophy. That, too, takes time.

Hopefully, Thomas will show the same judicious restraint - allowing mob mentality to influence his coaching decision is beneath him - and respect for what Chaney's up against as he expects us to show him if his radical renovation isn't an overnight success.

[MavKikiNYC]

For Now, Thomas Rules Out Taking Over as Knicks Coach
By LIZ ROBBINS

Published: January 13, 2004


siah Thomas has not ended the speculation that he will fire Don Chaney as the Knicks' coach. But Thomas did rule out himself yesterday as a coaching candidate — for now.

"We're in the state where I think it would be impossible for me to do both and do them well," Thomas, the Knicks' president, said before last night's loss to the Mavericks. "We're trying to get healthy and we got to dig ourselves out of a big hole. And I don't think I would do this organization justice by trying to do both jobs."

But asked about the future, Thomas held the door open again. "In sports I always say you never say never, because you never know what's going to happen," he said.

Asked if he wanted to say that Chaney could coach the rest of the season to solidify Chaney's spot, Thomas said: "No, I don't. I would never say that about anybody. Those type of broad statements are not realistic in the sporting world we live in."

Yesterday, Thomas, dressed in his team sweats, offered Stephon Marbury a clinic on the pick-and-roll. A minute later, Othella Harrington, Allan Houston, Moochie Norris and Michael Doleac drifted over.

Clearly there is tension between Chaney and Thomas. Chaney did not want to talk about Thomas's impromptu coaching, nor what kind of a benefit that could be.

"No comment," Chaney said four times. "I have a game to concentrate on. I just don't have a comment. I'm just not going to talk about it."



I wonder how many times Cuban has done this already?

[dirno2000]

I wonder how many times Cuban has done this already?

lol...that would be hilarious. Cuban trying to teach Nash and Dirk how to run the pick and roll. Sharing the expertise he pickup while playing intramural ball at IU. The question is; could they keep themselves from laughing long enough to listen.

Zeke should just fire him now and get it over with. Cheany doesn't deserve to be hung out to dry like this.

[kg_veteran]

Zeke should just fire him now and get it over with. Cheany doesn't deserve to be hung out to dry like this.

That's the truth.

[Male30Dan]

Not to say I told you so or anything, but as of today, the Knicks have the 8th spot in the Eastern Conference Playoffs, have won 4 in a row, and look like the team that I predicted would make it to AT LEAST the 2nd round of the playoffs after the Marbury trade!!!

By the way KG, that is a bet you are going to lose!

Originally posted by: kg_veteran

I'll be happy to wager with you on that.

I think they're going to have an incredibly difficult time beating Indiana, Detroit, New Jersey or New Orleans.

Max, the false assumption I think you're making is that this trade makes New York a contender.

[dirno2000]

Knicks win one for Zeke
---------------------------------------
NEW YORK (AP) -- Isiah Thomas' old team ran into his new one, and the team he now runs outplayed the one he formerly coached.

Two of Thomas' acquisitions, Penny Hardaway and Stephon Marbury, made several big plays down the stretch Tuesday night to lead the New York Knicks past the Pacers 97-90, ending Indiana's three-game winning streak.

This was a measuring stick game for the Knicks as they try to climb to .500 and qualify for the postseason, and they gave one of their better performances of Thomas' six-week tenure as team president.

"It's not about me, it's about the players, and they played well tonight," Thomas said. "I have a tremendous amount of respect for the Pacers, they're a great team.

"It's a long, long way to go, and our players were great tonight."

Hardaway had 14 points, including a clinching jumper with 17.2 seconds remaining, and Marbury had 23 points and eight assists.

Keith Van Horn outplayed Ron Artest at small forward and had 20 points, 12 rebounds, three assists and two blocked shots, and Kurt Thomas added 19 points and 12 rebounds.

Artest had 19 points for the Pacers, who were coached by Thomas the past three seasons. Thomas was fired in August by new team president Larry Bird, and this was his former team's first time playing in his presence since they were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs last spring.

"There wasn't any talk, but I think we all had it in the back of our minds that this game was extremely important for him -- especially with the circumstances that went down in Indiana," Van Horn said.

Thomas watched the game from his usual spot near the tunnel behind the scorer's table at Madison Square Garden, the Knicks celebrating at the end of one of their most quality victories of the season.

"We're going to remember those guys acting like they won the championship," Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal said. "Hopefully guys on our team have long memories."

After Reggie Miller put in a reverse layup to cut Indiana's deficit to 91-90, Marbury got past Jamaal Tinsley and drew a second defender, leaving Thomas open for an 18-footer that made it 93-90 with 45 seconds left.

Artest missed two free throws with 39.7 seconds left, and New York ran the clock down before Hardaway banked in a 10-footer over Tinsley for a 95-90 lead with 17.2 seconds remaining.

Miller missed a tightly defended 3 from the corner on Indiana's next possession to end the Pacers' final hope.

"I knew he (Thomas) wanted this win real badly. We definitely did not want to let him down," Hardaway said. "I think he wanted to see how we were going to respond to a good team coming in here and see what we were going to do, and I think we stepped up to the challenge."

Neither team led by more than seven points in a tight first half that ended with New York ahead 47-43 thanks to a 12-0 edge in second-chance points.

Tinsley hit three 3-pointers in the third quarter, the last of which completed a 16-4 run and gave Indiana a 63-57 lead. The Pacers didn't trail again until Van Horn hit a corner jumper to give New York a 74-73 lead with 9:32 remaining in the fourth quarter.

New York stayed ahead the rest of the way to win its third in a row.

"This is a great feeling. This is what basketball is all about, games like this," Van Horn said.

[Male30Dan]

And now 7th in the East...

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
And now 7th in the East...

You must be listening to Kevin Frazier and his NBA Fastbreak buddies too much, Dan. They were foaming at the mouth last night over how great the Knicks look now, and I'll ask them the same thing I asked you several weeks ago when I made that bet -- who are the Knicks going to beat to get out of the first round? They can't beat Indiana, New Jersey, Detroit or New Orleans in a series.

Also, I know it's really impressive that the Knicks have now SURGED to four games UNDER .500 (23-27), but how impressive will it be when they go about 3-7 over the next 10? (If you don't believe me, take a look at their schedule.)

Don't believe the hype from the Fastbreak boys, Dan. The Knicks are still a very mediocre team.

[dirno2000]

KG, I don't understand why you're so down on the Knicks. They have a good defensive center (that most people on this board wanted) two workmen at power forward (Thomas and Harrington), a big versatile small forward, the Michael Finely of the East at the two and one of the better pg's in the league. Lenny Wilkins is actually playing Mutombo and Penny is a solid vet coming off of the bench.

Houston is out until after the All-Star break so if they can go 5-5 over the next ten they'll be in good shape in the East. The only two games that I'm pretty sure they'll lose are @Dallas and @Sac.

As far as the playoffs, three of the four teams you mentioned don’t scare me. There’s no reason NO, NJ, or Det. can’t lose in the 1st round. J-O’Neal probably wouldn’t allow Indy to fall that early, but the other three are vulnerable, especially if Steph raised his game.

[kingrex]

Knicks beat the unsinkable Pacers. Nice job knickerbockers, and don't put them in the Lottery yet.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
KG, I don't understand why you're so down on the Knicks. They have a good defensive center (that most people on this board wanted) two workmen at power forward (Thomas and Harrington), a big versatile small forward, the Michael Finely of the East at the two and one of the better pg's in the league. Lenny Wilkins is actually playing Mutombo and Penny is a solid vet coming off of the bench.

It's not so much that I'm down on them; I just try to be realistic about them. For some reason, a lot of basketball fans are patently unrealistic when discussing the Knicks.

They have a workable frontcourt rotation with Mutombo, Doleac, Thomas, and Harrington -- I'll agree to that. I'm even a fan of Van Horn's game, and I'll agree that Penny is a solid guy coming off the bench.

Marbury has never elevated his teams to the level of his supposed talent. Sure, he's a great individual player, but he's going to have to prove to me that he can carry a team before I'll believe it.

As for Houston, you really insult Michael Finley when you call Houston the "Finley of the East". People rag on Finley for bad defense; well, Houston makes Fin look like Ron Artest. Houston is one of the most one-dimensional players in the league. At least Fin defends (and works hard on defense) and hits the glass. Houston does one thing and ONLY one thing: shoot.

So they have a decent frontcourt, a good PG who has never taken a team anywhere, and a one-dimensional SG. Forgive me if I'm not singing their praises.

Houston is out until after the All-Star break so if they can go 5-5 over the next ten they'll be in good shape in the East. The only two games that I'm pretty sure they'll lose are @Dallas and @Sac.

7 Sat @ Miami
8 Sun L.A. Clippers
10 Tue @ Dallas
11 Wed @ New Orleans
17 Tue Detroit
20 Fri Utah
22 Sun Cleveland
24 Tue @ Sacramento
25 Wed @ Phoenix
27 Fri @ L.A. Clippers

I see the Clippers and Cleveland at home as the only sure wins and Dallas, Sacramento, and New Orleans as clear losses. I also don't like their chances in Miami, Phoenix or LAC. Detroit and Utah at home won't exactly be cakewalks.

They'd be extremely lucky to come out of that stretch 5-5.

As far as the playoffs, three of the four teams you mentioned don’t scare me. There’s no reason NO, NJ, or Det. can’t lose in the 1st round. J-O’Neal probably wouldn’t allow Indy to fall that early, but the other three are vulnerable, especially if Steph raised his game.

New Orleans is a veteran squad. Their starting five is better; their bench is better. Sure, it's possible that they could lose, but it's not probable.

New Jersey has had their trouble this season, but they're not going out in the first round. Kidd's too good.

Detroit is another team that's deeper and better than the Knicks.

If you want me to concede that it's "possible" for the Knicks to get to the second round, I suppose I'll have to do that. A lot of stuff is "possible". But it's going to take another team breaking down or beating themselves for the Knicks to get there. They aren't good enough to go and take a series from any of the top 4 teams in the East.

[dirno2000]

KG the gap between Houston and Finley is not as wide as you’re making it out to be. I don’t watch enough Knicks basketball to give a thorough critique of his defense, but the fact that he played under Jeff Van Gundy leads me to believe that Houston’s not just out there running around with is hands at his sides. Like the rest of our stars, Finley has is moments where he has no interest in stopping anybody. He’s a decent defender when he puts his mind to it, just like Houston is. Yes, Allen Houston’s specialty is shooting and he does is as well as just about anybody in the league. And it’s not like he’s Craig Hodges just drifting around the perimeter, waiting for someone to pass him the ball, he can create his own shot. It’s by no means a knock on Michael Finley to compare him with Allen Houston. The two are stunningly similar players.

They’re 7-3 since Wilkens signed on, albeit with a favorable schedule. The next ten games will be tough since Houston will be out until at least the All-Star break. When he comes back we’ll get to see how that team comes together. When it’s all said and done I think they’ll be a good Eastern Conference team capable of knocking off most of the upper echelon teams. If nothing else they’re watchable for the first time in years.

[Male30Dan]

Nope... No Fastbreak KG... Just simple BB knowledge!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

You will LOSE your bet KG... You will lose... To make such a blank statement as to say that the Knicks cant beat these four teams if they make the playoffs is just ridiculous... I mean look back at some of the playoffs and you see upsets all the time... Last year there were upsets... Years ago there were upsets... Hell, look at what happened when those Nuggets played with heart against the 1 seed Sonics several years back... In basketball, like any sport, any team can be beat... So when I look at a talented team like the Knicks, (and by the way, I am NOT a Knicks fan - you have no idea how I loved watching Charles Smith get his ball swatted over and over against the bulls in the playoffs - or how I loved watching Ewings driving layup clank off of the back of the rim in another playoff series). But I am just stating my basketball opinion here... I think they are talented enough to make the playoffs and beat probably any team outside of Indiana and New Jersey, (despite their win against Indiana last night, this is the only real team I think can actually win it all from the East). With that said, I think they COULD beat either of those teams in the right situation. Any what happens if the overtake New Jersey in their division. They are only 5 games back, and could actually do that... What happens then when they have the 2nd seed in the playoffs??? Do you still think they dont advance into the 2nd round... If NJ goes on another tail spin under their new Doogie Howser coach, anything could happen in that weak ass division...

So to you KG, a man who will soon be beaten and bruised via a lost bet and hurt ego, I say bah humbug to your pessimistic views regarding the Knicks... It all likely comes down to Thomas hatred anyway... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
KG the gap between Houston and Finley is not as wide as you’re making it out to be.

It’s by no means a knock on Michael Finley to compare him with Allen Houston. The two are stunningly similar players.

They're very similar on the offensive end. That's about it. Finley's a much better passer and rebounder. It's amazing to me that Houston gets about 2 1/2 rebounds a game despite playing 37 minutes a game. That's just horrible for a guy 6'6". Neither of them are great defenders, but I'm pretty positive that Finley is universally considered the better defender of the two. And the better player.

They’re 7-3 since Wilkens signed on, albeit with a favorable schedule. The next ten games will be tough since Houston will be out until at least the All-Star break. When he comes back we’ll get to see how that team comes together. When it’s all said and done I think they’ll be a good Eastern Conference team capable of knocking off most of the upper echelon teams. If nothing else they’re watchable for the first time in years.

Watchable, yes. Good, well, the jury's definitely still out on that.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: Male22Dan
Nope... No Fastbreak KG... Just simple BB knowledge!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

You will LOSE your bet KG... You will lose... To make such a blank statement as to say that the Knicks cant beat these four teams if they make the playoffs is just ridiculous...

I can't remember who I bet with, but if it's so ridiculous, why don't you and I bet on it?

I mean look back at some of the playoffs and you see upsets all the time... Last year there were upsets... Years ago there were upsets... Hell, look at what happened when those Nuggets played with heart against the 1 seed Sonics several years back... In basketball, like any sport, any team can be beat...

So, basically, you're counting on a miracle. That's sound logic.

So when I look at a talented team like the Knicks, (and by the way, I am NOT a Knicks fan - you have no idea how I loved watching Charles Smith get his ball swatted over and over against the bulls in the playoffs - or how I loved watching Ewings driving layup clank off of the back of the rim in another playoff series). But I am just stating my basketball opinion here... I think they are talented enough to make the playoffs and beat probably any team outside of Indiana and New Jersey, (despite their win against Indiana last night, this is the only real team I think can actually win it all from the East). With that said, I think they COULD beat either of those teams in the right situation. Any what happens if the overtake New Jersey in their division. They are only 5 games back, and could actually do that... What happens then when they have the 2nd seed in the playoffs??? Do you still think they dont advance into the 2nd round... If NJ goes on another tail spin under their new Doogie Howser coach, anything could happen in that weak ass division...

So bet me then.

So to you KG, a man who will soon be beaten and bruised via a lost bet and hurt ego, I say bah humbug to your pessimistic views regarding the Knicks... It all likely comes down to Thomas hatred anyway... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Yeah, that's it. Thomas hatred. It has nothing to do with the reasoning I provided above. Sheesh.

[Male30Dan]

Im not ducking you KG... I just got back to this thread... I put 50 dollars down for the taking if your wallet is as big as your mouth...

Regarding the "counting on a miracle" crap line... Give me a break KG... You made comments saying it couldnt be done, and I threw facts your way... So you assume I am saying WELL IF THEY DID IT MAYBE, JUST MAYBE THOSE SORRY KNICKS CAN... Please... They ARE a good team, and if they lose from here on out and dont make the playoffs or win just enough and get knocked out in the first - THEY WILL STILL BE A GOOD TEAM, AND GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME TO LAY 50 DOLLARS ON THEM IN FACT MAKING THE SECOND ROUND... Like I said, you will lose anyway!!!

In fact, lets make it 100, such that 50 goes to the board either way, and 50 to the winner!!! Dont ask me to ball up if you dont want your money taken from you like a bully takes a kids lunch money!!!

[kg_veteran]

I read back through the thread, and it seems that you and I were the ones discussing a bet in the first place.

$100 is a bit rich for my blood (mortgage and bills to pay), but I'll gladly bet you $50 that the Knicks don't get out of the first round.

[Male30Dan]

50 it is... But seeing as how I have yet to donate anything to the board, lets again make it a half and half bet, such that if I lose, at least some good will come from it.

25 to you/me, 25 to the board... Sound good and fair? And you can make that check out to Daniel, not Dan!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[kg_veteran]

Sounds good to me. 25/25 it is.

[Max Power]

bump to ask - who doesn't think the Knicks are going to make the playoffs now?

[Male30Dan]

Things sure are looking bad for your side of the bet KG... But hey, they looked bad before this past trade!

[TheBaron]

Originally posted by: Max Power
bump to ask - who doesn't think the Knicks are going to make the playoffs now?

Who thinks making the playoffs in the East is a big accomplishment? Philly and Orlando fall out of the bottom and not too many East teams that werent in the playoffs last year are really rising so the question is: which crappy teams will fill Orlando and Philadelphia's shoes?

[Poindexter Einstein]

I am merely a bystander in this stuff ... But the bet wasnt about making the playoffs. it was about getting out of the first round. To do that, it seems to me that the Knicks will likely need a seed that is 5 or better, because the East has 3 pretty decent teams in Indy, NJ, and Det - and thus a 6,7, or 8 seed against one of those 3 (and with the other team getting home court to boot) seems like one-and-done to me. The question is, can the Knicks make it to a 5th seed? Though they are improved, that might be VERY problematic still.

[TheBaron]

In that case, let me in on the bet. The Knicks have no chance of making it out of the first round. Anyone who will bet me money?

[kg_veteran]

Poindexter - I don't think they can beat any of the top 4 teams in the East, but they definitely aren't beating Indy, NJ, or Detroit.

Baron - I'm sure Male22Dan will give you some of his money. He's already going to give me some of his.


Posted by Dan:

Things sure are looking bad for your side of the bet KG... But hey, they looked bad before this past trade!

Are you suggesting that the most recent trade made the Knicks BETTER? Come on Chad Ford, be realistic. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] The Knicks got weaker at small forward and really didn't get any better at center. I was going to win the bet anyway, but I suppose a thank you note to Zeke is in order. He is being very cooperative.

[jayC]

Come on admit Isiah has done one helluva job. He traded everyone not named kurt thomas to acquire stephon marbury, and now he got out from under van horn's ridiculous contract. Sure they may have given up on Lampe but their are two ways to win in this league a good point guard or a dominant center. Marbury and Houston could be one helluva combination. Houston does the same thing that Finley does only better shoot the ball. He traded weatherspoon for a need position a backup point guard moochie nooris, he got a solid player in Nazr Mohammed and Tim Thomas. Thomas a 6 foot 10 small forward that can stretch defenses. Add Wallace next year and the Knicks could stamp themselves a finals ticket.

[kg_veteran]

Come on admit Isiah has done one helluva job.

I can't admit that because I don't believe it. I think he's mortgaged the Knicks to the hilt until nearly the end of the decade without putting together a good enough roster to realistically get out of the East, much less win it all.

He traded everyone not named kurt thomas to acquire stephon marbury, and now he got out from under van horn's ridiculous contract.

Have you compared KVH's contract to Thomas' contract? Isiah saved about $5 million over three years. Hardly a difference-making move salary-wise. And the drop off in talent from KVH to Thomas is sizeable.

Sure they may have given up on Lampe but their are two ways to win in this league a good point guard or a dominant center. Marbury and Houston could be one helluva combination.

Yeah, it's a nice backcourt. But there are a number of really nice backcourts in the East. And most of those teams have good frontcourts, too.

Houston does the same thing that Finley does only better shoot the ball.

This has already been discussed. Houston is much more one-dimensional than Fin; it's painful to hear you compare the two.

He traded weatherspoon for a need position a backup point guard moochie nooris

Did he really need Norris when he a) had a starting PG who's going to play 38-40 mpg and b) already has Frank Williams? Not that Spoon was going to dominate or anything, but I think he'd have been more useful to the Knicks than Norris.

he got a solid player in Nazr Mohammed and Tim Thomas.

Mohammed's a decent backup center, but is he really any better than the guy they shipped out (Doleac)? I don't think so.

Thomas a 6 foot 10 small forward that can stretch defenses.

Van Horn was able to stretch defenses, too. Their shooting percentages from three-point range are nearly identical. Not really much of an upgrade there. And it's not like Thomas is a stopper defensively, either.

Add Wallace next year and the Knicks could stamp themselves a finals ticket.

Add Wallace, and they might get out of the first round. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Seriously, I know a number of people keep floating this rumor, but I'll believe that "CTC" will take a paycut when I see it.

[dirno2000]

Add Wallace, and they might get out of the first round. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Seriously, I know a number of people keep floating this rumor, but I'll believe that "CTC" will take a paycut when I see it.

He won't have much choice. Atlanta's not looking to take of salary so it will be next to impossible for his agent to construct a sign and trade. Are any of the teams with cap room (off the top of my head Det., SA, PHX, UT, LAC) going to go after Sheed for more then 5 mil per year? Probably not.

Sheed makes NY as good as any team in the East.

Also, I still think you're either underestimating Houston or overestimating Finely.

[kg_veteran]

Originally posted by: dirno2000
He won't have much choice. Atlanta's not looking to take of salary so it will be next to impossible for his agent to construct a sign and trade. Are any of the teams with cap room (off the top of my head Det., SA, PHX, UT, LAC) going to go after Sheed for more then 5 mil per year? Probably not.

We might be able to wager on that, too. Somebody will go after him. He may be an enigma, a headcase, and a troublemaker, but there will be someone willing to pay him more than the MLE.

Sheed makes NY as good as any team in the East.

Let's wait and see whether Wallace actually signs there and whether they are able to keep guys like Kurt Thomas in the offseason before we start debating about a team not yet incarnated.

Also, I still think you're either underestimating Houston or overestimating Finely.

We don't really need to debate this again, do we?

I'll agree that they're very similar offensively.

[thebac]

KG, I don't disagree with you that often on basketball matters, but a few clarifications are in order:

Isiah did not mortgage the Knicks' future with the Marbury deal. Allan Houston and Shandon Anderson combine for just under $30 million in salaries for the 06-07 season, after which they become free agents. The Knicks were in salary cap hell anyway, there situation could not get much worse. Penny's deal runs out before '07, so he does not affect their ability to get under the cap--they're not going to get under the cap until Anderson's and Houston's contracts expire. If he doesn't deal McDyess' contract now, it'll be worthless soon enough, as they have no cap room to sign any FA's anyway. In addition, Marbury is still young, and a franchise player--if you have the chance to get him, do it.

Having said that, I would agree with you that he might have overpaid for Marbury. It seems as if he was too willing to acquiesce to the Suns' demands, and they might have taken less (did he really have to throw in all those picks?). Nevertheless, he hardly sacrificed any cap room--the Knicks were not going to have any until '07. In addition, the Knicks were bad, but not bad enough (unless they had won last season's lottery) to get a good enough pick to get a difference-maker. Plus projects are just that: projects. Marbury is a proven commodity. Besides, look at the past two drafts, even taking into consideration potential, there are only two players I would have picked ahead of Marbury, knowing what I know now: Yao and LeBron--and neither are better than Marbury now.

As for the Van Horn deal, I'm not going to defend that. Thomas might be a slightly better defender and younger, but he's a worse shooter, rebounder, and scorer. Nazr is a better player than Doleac, but probably by a smaller margin than Van Horn over Thomas. Spoon for Moochie, probably inconsequential.

I don't think they'll make it out of the first round, but we'll see if they catch fire the rest of the season or not.

(Speaking of Tim Thomas, funny how the Bulls wreaked havoc when they had all that cap room a few years back: signing Mercer, Eddie Robinson, and Miller to big contracts, while driving up the price for Thomas. Interesting how the only one who turned out to be a player was Miller, who they traded with Artest for Jalen Rose. Of course, nowadays Artest and Miller look like they will be all stars for years to come, while Rose probably won't see another all star game again (and is saddled with a huge contract--his contract averages $13.2 million a year compared to $16.7 million a year combined for Miller and Artest, despite Miller's large new contract this offseason).)

[Male30Dan]

Man,

Im gone for a while and KG bad mouths me!!!

Shame shame!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

And Baron, I wanted to bet 100 originally anyway... I am more than happy to take your money and provide the board with a total of 50 dollars that ISNT coming from me, (though I will need to be given proper thanks for my ability to con two suckers out of their hard earned money)!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Male30Dan]

And by the way, for not being about to beat Indiana or Detroit, they sure seem to be 2 for 2 here lately!!! Hmm....