Dirk All-NBA 2nd Team, Nash All-NBA 3rd Team

[BRIAN27]

NEW YORK -- Two-time MVP Tim Duncan made the All-NBA team Tuesday, just the sixth player in league history to receive that honor in each of his first six seasons.

Also on the All-NBA first team were Los Angeles Lakers teammates Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, the Orlando Magic's Tracy McGrady and the Minnesota Timberwolves' Kevin Garnett.

Bryant and O'Neal were the first teammates picked in consecutive seasons since Utah's Karl Malone and John Stockton in 1993-94 and 1994-95.

Duncan averaged 23.3 points and 12.9 rebounds, helping the San Antonio Spurs tie for the NBA's best record.

The other players with six straight All-NBA appearances to start their careers were Hall of Famers Elgin Baylor, Larry Bird, George Mikan, Bob Pettit and Oscar Robertson.

Picked for the second team were Dallas' Dirk Nowitzki, Sacramento's Chris Webber, Detroit's Ben Wallace, New Jersey's Jason Kidd, and Philadelphia's Allen Iverson.

The third team: Boston's Paul Pierce, New Orleans' Jamal Mashburn, Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal, Phoenix's Stephon Marbury, and Dallas' Steve Nash.


Congrats to Dirk and Nash!!

[Ummmmm Ok]

Position Player, Team (1st Team Votes) Points
Forward Tim Duncan, San Antonio (120) 603
Forward Kevin Garnett, Minnesota (115) 596
Center Shaquille O’Neal, L.A. Lakers (112) 593
Guard Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers (118) 599
Guard Tracy McGrady, Orlando (107) 578


2002-03 ALL-NBA SECOND TEAM

Position Player, Team (1st Team Votes) Points
Forward Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas (5) 360
Forward Chris Webber, Sacramento (1) 310
Center Ben Wallace, Detroit (5) 307
Guard Jason Kidd, New Jersey (16) 355
Guard Allen Iverson, Philadelphia (8) 350


2002-03 ALL-NBA THIRD TEAM

Position Player, Team (1st Team Votes) Points
Forward Paul Pierce, Boston 91
Forward Jamal Mashburn, New Orleans 63
Center/Forward Jermaine O’Neal, Indiana (2) 165
Guard Stephon Marbury, Phoenix (1) 141
Guard Steve Nash, Dallas 85

[mavsfanforever]

We need to be patient for one more year and Dirk will be in All NBA First TEAM.

[TheKid]

That first team should exclude Shaq despite the fact that he IS the most dominating player in the game, Dirk deserved that spot before him.

Also, I'm NOT making this statement based on the playoffs, I'm making it based on the season, STEVE NASH DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE ON ANY OF THE ALL NBA TEAMS!!!!!!! He's recognized for one reason and ONE reason only, he was on the All-Star team.

[WayOutWest]

<< That first team should exclude Shaq despite the fact that he IS the most dominating player in the game, Dirk deserved that spot before him.

Also, I'm NOT making this statement based on the playoffs, I'm making it based on the season, STEVE NASH DOES NOT DESERVE TO BE ON ANY OF THE ALL NBA TEAMS!!!!!!! He's recognized for one reason and ONE reason only, he was on the All-Star team. >>



If you bump Shaq then Big Ben takes the all NBA center position so Dirk stays put. Despite him missing 1//4 of the season Shaq is still alot more worthy than Dirk for the spot on team one. Unless TD moves to full time center, don't expect any changes on team 1 for a few more years, unlike most fans, the voters also look at defense for thier selection.

[Murphy3]

hmm, a very tired argument.

Nothing like the old, stale national perception that no longer holds true.

[Epitome22]

I like Steve Nash alot but I don't think he deserved an ALL NBA selection over some other guards in the league.

[grbh]

Why would you bump Shaq?

[Murphy3]

it's a shame that jamal mashburn made the team.

[TheKid]

Way out you're opinion is biased where mine is not. Anyone on this board will tell you I'm probably the most critical of Dirk and have been for some time, but the truth be told, he was EASILY (that's right I said it) more deserving of 1st team above Shaq this year. In past years, NO, in years to come maybe, but not definate either way, this year, there's no doubt in my mind.

The same way there is no doubt in my mind Steve shouldn't be on either one of those teams.

[Drbio]

There is no way Shaq should be first team regardless of who steps in. I think Dirk over Wallace, but that is just opinion. Shaq didn't play in 1/4 of the regular season therefore he should not be considered. He got this spot for his past actions, not his current play. That and the fact that the LA biased media darlings have a stiffy for the Lakers.

[TheKid]

I think Shaq should be bumped to second team because although he played well when he's played, he's still been there for three quarters of the season. In my opinion, I don't think someone should get 1st team and they haven't been there the entire season.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

im sorry to say this again,and im sure i'll be laughed by some but Dirk doesnt even see Duncan.
he's so so much better than Duncan.

so beside Dirk insted of TD,i agree with that list completly.

[Murphy3]

dirk may be better than duncan sometime in the near future..but not yet. Yes, it can be said that dirk is better offensively than TD, but.. TD's overall game gives him the edge

[LRB]

Hey were just lucky that Shaq's fat ass is taking up two spaces like he does everywhere else. And speaking of Defense, Shaq played some pretty putrid D getting his fat ass into &quot;shape&quot; this year. Shaq gets the spot on past years performances.

[Murphy3]

this is annoying..shaq is the most dominant player in the NBA. An argument can be made that he doesn't deserve the honor because of the amount of time he missed. But if that is not taken into consideration, there is no doubt that he deserves to be a first team guy.

[Epitome22]

Did Nowitzki play any center this year?

I can see an argument for giving Wallace the edge over Shaq for first team because Shaq only showed up for half the season, but not Nowitzki.

[Murphy3]

of course dirk played alot of center this year..he usually plays some center in nearly every game.

however, i'm just pointing out the obvious and not advocating that dirk should have been first team over shaq

[WayOutWest]

<< I think Shaq should be bumped to second team because although he played well when he's played, he's still been there for three quarters of the season. In my opinion, I don't think someone should get 1st team and they haven't been there the entire season. >>



So then what's the cutoff? 80 games? 75? 70? There isn't anybody on the second team I would trade for on the first. I wouldn't trade Shaq for anyone other than Duncan. Plain and simple Shaq still dominates the league. When Dirk starts playing some solid defense then he can be considered for the first team, right now you get as much offensive punch from TD and KG plus All-NBA defense as well. Head and shoulders above the rest of the fowards in the league.

[WayOutWest]

<< There is no way Shaq should be first team regardless of who steps in. I think Dirk over Wallace, but that is just opinion. Shaq didn't play in 1/4 of the regular season therefore he should not be considered. He got this spot for his past actions, not his current play. That and the fact that the LA biased media darlings have a stiffy for the Lakers. >>



What? You joking? Shaq's averages are up in almost every catagory and not too far off his MVP season. He's missed about as many games this year as the past two years and is 12 games off the MVP season pace. Please, Shaq over Dirk is no contest. TD and KG over Dirk is no contest.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

i still dont think TD is better than Dirk,obviously his defense is better than dirk',but not as much as to make TD better than dirk despite the offensive difference between the two.
true Dirk defense is still off,but when he doesnt guard guards,Like Shees,he proves to do a pretty decent job.
Duncan' defense is still much better but he isnt exactly &quot;The Glove&quot;,he's a good defender but a couple of blocks a game doesnt make you a top defender.
Duncan is playing a Forward/Cebter role on SA,so he guards players at his height or a little shorter,while Dirk often Guards 6 footers,Like bonzi or alot of players stuck in the middle of a distingtion of SGs and SFs,like Finley.

Dirk is already better than TD,but not Better than Kobe,Tracy or KG,and Shaq is still much better.
with his development over the summer,i predict he'll surpase Kobe,Tracy and KG and come close to shaq,but still not quite there.

sorry but Duncan is one of the most overrated players there is,and right now,i can think of 4 players better than him without trying to hard

[Epitome22]

Tim Duncan is a comparable scorer to Nowitzki (50% Fg percentage) better passer, better rebounder and twice the defender. The only things I see Nowitzki having over Duncan at this point are sheer scoring ability and ball handling. BTW, 2.93 blocks per game (2nd in the league) is hardly a couple of blocks per game. No moreso than Ben Wallace's 3.15 blocks per game (league leader) is just a couple of blocks per game. Duncan is Excellence.

[jayC]

Kidd nash is the third best point guard in the league. Hell nash is the second best player on the team and he isn't paid like one. 15 is about right for him.

[WayOutWest]

Playing defense is ALOT more than just blocking shots. TD denies position, blocks out and is a terrific help defender. TD and KG are in a class all thier own as far a players that play both ends. Obviously there are defensive &quot;specialits&quot; that are better than TD and KG but what makes TD and KG so special is that they also carry the majority of the offensive load. KG can legitimately guard any position in the NBA, the guys KG can't guard can't be gaurded by anyone else anyway.

While Dirk may be the more versitle than TD on offense he's not more effective. KG is just as versitile as Dirk and a better low post player. While someday Dirk may surpass TD, very unlikely IMO, he won't surpass KG. They are too similar and KG is just physically more able to do more things.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

Epitome,you gotta check your stats,first of,He isnt second,he's third,Theo Ratliff is first.

they're scoring arent comparable,its more than FG percantile,if it was,Eddie curry was an unchalenged first team NBA.
Dirk is much more explosive and much more versatile on offense.
how in hells name did you get Duncan is a better Passer?cause he got 1 or even half an assists per game more than Dirk?maybe its because the ball is in his hends most of the time,while Dirk has to make do with a team with 3 all starts and Nick.
the funny thing is he isnt even a better defender than dirk,He just focus his efforts on rebounding rather than offense.
at the begining of the season dirk had his 12 boards a game,and he didnt even tried to hard,but on the second half of the season he had to focus on making some shots,so he had difficulties doing both.
like game 7,first half he got them boards,second he got them points,they're abbileties at the boards arent that much different,its just that some make more efforts getting them.



<< While Dirk may be the more versitle than TD on offense he's not more effective. KG is just as versitile as Dirk and a better low post player. While someday Dirk may surpass TD, very unlikely IMO, he won't surpass KG. They are too similar and KG is just physically more able to do more things. >>



agreed with KG being an excalent player,and right now he's adlist as good as Dirk,but again your over doing it,and i do believe Dirk would be MUCH better,especialy after he works on his quicknes on defense on the off season like he said he will.
KG is about done,he would'nt get any better,while Dirks potontial is simply incredible,i would'nt be surprised by nothing he'd do,if its Larry Bird,or MJ,the sky is the limit for this kid.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

what you dont understand is that this is KGs breaking season,this should have been the finest of his basketball career,yet Dirk is still (i say just as good) almost as good as KG,and Dirk just started playing NBA basketball like we think he knows.
he's showed amazing improvement everytime he got back from the off season.
thats why i say he'd be better,in do time,than KG,who is right now im my opinion the real MVP and the second best player in the league after shaq.

[Murphy3]

i would disagree that KG is as versitile as Dirk.. KG is much less effective at driving to the basket from the perimeter, taking it to the hole on the fast break, and from shooting from the outside. All the while, dirk has worked his way into an effective inside threat

kg and dirk are close..i can understand if you want to say that KG is the better player...and at this point, i'd agree. But, KG is not in the same class offensively as dirk..and by the end of next season, this will be even more apparent

[Epitome22]

<< [i]Epitome,you gotta check your stats,first of,He isnt second,he's third,Theo Ratliff is first.

they're scoring arent comparable,its more than FG percantile,if it was,Eddie curry was an unchalenged first team NBA.

(E) It's more than FG percentage. Eddy Curry isn't taking 20 shots a game nor does he constantly have the ball in his hands, nor does he get double and triple teamed at the rate Duncan does nor is it a futile mystery with the bulls in general over who's gonna get the ball and take the shot when they have possession. Thru all that he managed to complete FGs at an above 50% mark. That's impressive. That's what great post players do.



Dirk is much more explosive and much more versatile on offense.

(E) How? because he averaged what, all of 1.8 points per game less than Dirk during the season? Tim Duncan manages his offensive numbers in a calmer, steady, more paced fashion than Nowitzki does but in the end he's a comparable offensive threat. As for being more versatile, Dirk is more &quot;versatile&quot; than Shaq. Doesen't mean Shaq isn't a comparable or more poptent for that matter oiffensive threat.


how in hells name did you get Duncan is a better Passer?cause he got 1 or even half an assists per game more than Dirk?maybe its because the ball is in his hends most of the time,while Dirk has to make do with a team with 3 all starts and Nick.

(E) criticizing someone's passing ability or statistics regarding passing because they have the ball in their hands alot is poor. By that logic, we'd better dp something about this huge overrating of John Stockton. How could he not dish out all those assists? he had the ball in his hands practically all the time! FYI Duncan has always been a solid passer and just as Shaq has become a better passer as he spends more time in the league so has Duncan. His passing during the first round against Phoenix was some of the best Ive ever seen from a big man since KG.

the funny thing is he isnt even a better defender than dirk,He just focus his efforts on rebounding rather than offense.

(E)???? Could you please put that in more understandable terms? focuses his efforts on rebounding rather than offense? SWo what you're saying is that when the other team has possession and are in the Spurs side of the court, if he focused his mental abilities on the basket all the way down the court instead of tediously swatting shots and pulling down defensive rebounds he'd be shown up for the fraud he is or something? this statement doesen't make any sense. Doesen't focus on offense? 6 times all NBA first teamer, 2 time MVP, 22.9 career points per game, 3.2 offensive rebounds a game, doesen't focus on offense. Right.


at the begining of the season dirk had his 12 boards a game,and he didnt even tried to hard,but on the second half of the season he had to focus on making some shots,so he had difficulties doing both.

(E) With respect to Dirk, he's a good rebounder, I don't remember him ever being at more than 10.4 rebounds a game during the season whereas Duncan has been averaging 12-13 rebounds a game all season long just like he does every season he plays in. Secondly, as for concentrating on making shots, are you honestly trying to say, with the core of support that Dirk has, that there's some added pressure on Dirk that ISN'T on the leader of a two man show like Duncan? If anything Duncan has to focus more on getting points for his team than Dirk does and even though pulling down rebounds(90% of which are defensive) is hardly some antithesis to focusing on scoring points, Since Duncan manages to do both that would in actuality makes the case for Duncan being the better player at this juncture stronger.


like game 7,first half he got them boards,second he got them points,they're abbileties at the boards arent that much different,its just that some make more efforts getting them.

(E) As was said. Tim Duncan, as his teams indesputable first option, with double teams galore has no less pressure putting points on the board than Nowitzki does. This argument that focusing on getting rebounds and focusing on socring points is at some paradox is also laughable. Dirk just like every other player gets most of his boards on the defensive end. What is it exactly about this mysterious focus on points that makes him rebound so much more poorly when the other team has possesion and shoots?

Dirk is an excellent player. One day he'll be as good as Duncan and he might someday be better. But right now, he isn't.



<< >>

[Epitome22]

Coming into this season I thought Dirk was better than KG. And he maybe is. But I will say that regardless of who's better, KGs season this year was much more impressive than Dirk's IMO.

[Murphy3]

i'd say that KG finally took some steps on the offensive side of the ball...whereas dirk continued to take steps on both sides of the court.
i'd probably give a slight edge to KG..but, the gap is closing and by the end of next year, i wouldn't be surprised if dirk were considered by many to be the best forward in the NBA

[Ummmmm Ok]

Dirk is the best forward in the NBA, when it comes to causing defensive nightmares. Shoots like a SG, runs the court like a SF, has a decent post game in PF and is as tall as a center. Where else can you find a 7 footer that can shoot lights out from anywhere on the court?

If this offseason, Dirk strictly works on footwork in the low post and works on man on man defense, he will be the best forward in the game next year hands down.

Damn I sound like a homer!! Screw it, I am going home.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

<< It's more than FG percentage. Eddy Curry isn't taking 20 shots a game nor does he constantly have the ball in his hands, nor does he get double and triple teamed at the rate Duncan does nor is it a futile mystery with the bulls in general over who's gonna get the ball and take the shot when they have possession. Thru all that he managed to complete FGs at an above 50% mark. That's impressive. That's what great post players do. >>



sorry to tell ya but its pretty average percantile for a post up player,have you seen shaq?i promise you shaq is being doubled up everytime he touches the ball but he manages to come through with 57%,i think,of his shots.
you cant compare a perimeter player to a post player percantages.
you'll probably find Zidrunas Ilgouskas or almost any other center IN THE WORLD having very high percantages.
i still say that Dirk is much scarier to a defender,and is by far a better option on offense.




<< criticizing someone's passing ability or statistics regarding passing because they have the ball in their hands alot is poor. By that logic, we'd better dp something about this huge overrating of John Stockton. How could he not dish out all those assists? he had the ball in his hands practically all the time! FYI Duncan has always been a solid passer and just as Shaq has become a better passer as he spends more time in the league so has Duncan. His passing during the first round against Phoenix was some of the best Ive ever seen from a big man since KG. >>



hehe,all those assists?duncan delivers 3.9 assists per game,0.9 more than Dirk.
and my point is,the more you have it in your heands,your chances of an assists,rises,so,if stockton at the prime of his career,got 15 minutes a game,he would still deliver about 4 assists per game,not 13-14,but a good ratio to the minutes he played.
so if Dirk was almost the entire offensive tool you had,and he got the ball as much as TD,than his apg ratio would have been defenitly bigger,and it isnt that hard tieing TD's ratio of 3.9.




<< Could you please put that in more understandable terms? focuses his efforts on rebounding rather than offense? SWo what you're saying is that when the other team has possession and are in the Spurs side of the court, if he focused his mental abilities on the basket all the way down the court instead of tediously swatting shots and pulling down defensive rebounds he'd be shown up for the fraud he is or something? this statement doesen't make any sense. Doesen't focus on offense? 6 times all NBA first teamer, 2 time MVP, 22.9 career points per game, 3.2 offensive rebounds a game, doesen't focus on offense. Right. >>



when making an ugly ass shot,10 feet from the board,be as hard to make as a fadeaway jumper,that dirk shoots nearly everytime,than you could say their making the same mental effort on offense.
you have no idea how much it takes out of him to make that shot every single time,to not have a post up game yet still have high percantages.




<< TexWith respect to Dirk, he's a good rebounder, I don't remember him ever being at more than 10.4 rebounds a game during the season whereas Duncan has been averaging 12-13 rebounds a game all season long just like he does every season he plays in. Secondly, as for concentrating on making shots, are you honestly trying to say, with the core of support that Dirk has, that there's some added pressure on Dirk that ISN'T on the leader of a two man show like Duncan? If anything Duncan has to focus more on getting points for his team than Dirk does and even though pulling down rebounds(90% of which are defensive) is hardly some antithesis to focusing on scoring points, Since Duncan manages to do both that would in actuality makes the case for Duncan being the better player at this juncture stronger. >>



first of,Dirk did average 12 rebounds a game,so i apreciate you remaining with TD's stats and let me do Dirk.
its not about PRESSURE!!!i have no doubt Duncan is more importent to SA than Dirk to Dallas,and that Duncan is pressured much more than Dirk on offense,to get the bucket.
were coming back to the same point i mentioned earlier,Duncan doesnt have to put all his efforts on getting the shot,or making it accurete,his ugly ass shot is a 10 feeter,and with high percantile of it,it doesnt get the same amount of focus and consitration that banking a fadeaway needs,so you cant expect BOTH of them to be that fresh going on defense.



<< As was said. Tim Duncan, as his teams indesputable first option, with double teams galore has no less pressure putting points on the board than Nowitzki does. This argument that focusing on getting rebounds and focusing on socring points is at some paradox is also laughable. Dirk just like every other player gets most of his boards on the defensive end. What is it exactly about this mysterious focus on points that makes him rebound so much more poorly when the other team has possesion and shoots? >>



when the other team shoots?you mean Dirks defensive boards??he has about 0.7 defensive boards less per game than duncan,so im sorry i did quite get your point.

[Epitome22]

<<

<< >>

sorry to tell ya but its pretty average percantile for a post up player,


(E) There are alot of big men with a 50% FG percentage but those guys aren't taking near the amount of FG attempts that guys like Duncan and Shaq take.

have you seen shaq?i promise you shaq is being doubled up everytime he touches the ball but he manages to come through with 57%,i think,of his shots.
you cant compare a perimeter player to a post player percantages.
you'll probably find Zidrunas Ilgouskas or almost any other center IN THE WORLD having very high percantages.
i still say that Dirk is much scarier to a defender,and is by far a better option on offense.

(E) That's because Shaq is good too! The fact that Shaq has such a high percentage shot despite the number of FG attempts he makes and the amount of time he spends with the ball in his hands is the reason he's such a dominating and coveted player. As for not being able to compare a post player to a perimeter player's percentages, yes you can! Of course it would be silly to say Eddy Curry is a better shooter than Dirk Nowitzki because he shoots 50%, but if 2 people have a comparable amount of FG attempts and scoring average than you can most certainly compare their percentages.

FYI. Illgauskas shot 44% this season.



<< >>


criticizing someone's passing ability

hehe,all those assists?duncan delivers 3.9 assists per game,0.9 more than Dirk.

&quot;By that logic, we'd better dp something about this huge overrating of John Stockton. How could he not dish out all those assists?&quot;

(E) I was referring to John Stockton. Not Duncan.

and my point is,the more you have it in your heands,your chances of an assists,rises,so,if stockton at the prime of his career,got 15 minutes a game,he would still deliver about 4 assists per game,not 13-14,but a good ratio to the minutes he played.
so if Dirk was almost the entire offensive tool you had,and he got the ball as much as TD,than his apg ratio would have been defenitly bigger,and it isnt that hard tieing TD's ratio of 3.9.

(E) From what I've seen, I'd give Duncan the definite edge in terms of passing ability. If you think Dirk would match his numbers if he handled the ball more, that's certainly an entitled to opinion. I'm sure it isn't hard, and if it isn't, then Dirk should match it. Until then...



<< >>



when making an ugly ass shot,10 feet from the board,be as hard to make as a fadeaway jumper,that dirk shoots nearly everytime,than you could say their making the same mental effort on offense.you have no idea how much it takes out of him to make that shot every single time,to not have a post up game yet still have high percantages.

(E)That has nothing to do with mental effort and once again this is poor reasoning. Punishing Duncan because Dirk has to earn all his points without a strong post game makes no more sense than Punishing Nowitzki because Duncan can't hit a jumpshot outside 11 feet.I'm sorry but if Dirk has to work Harder to get his points than Duncan does for argument's sake (which I don't agree) then that isn't Duncan's problem it's Nowitzki's. And this still has nothing to do with rebounding.



<< TexWith respect to Dirk, he's a good rebounder, I don't remember him ever being at more than 10.4 rebounds a game during the season whereas Duncan has been averaging 12-13 rebounds a game all season long just like he does every season he plays in. Secondly, as for concentrating on making shots, are you honestly trying to say, with the core of support that Dirk has, that there's some added pressure on Dirk that ISN'T on the leader of a two man show like Duncan? If anything Duncan has to focus more on getting points for his team than Dirk does and even though pulling down rebounds(90% of which are defensive) is hardly some antithesis to focusing on scoring points, Since Duncan manages to do both that would in actuality makes the case for Duncan being the better player at this juncture stronger. >>



first of,Dirk did average 12 rebounds a game,so i apreciate you remaining with TD's stats and let me do Dirk.

(E) Sorry bro But I'm not just going to take your word for it. Can you document some statistical source from the season showing Dirk pulling down 12 boards a game?

its not about PRESSURE!!!i have no doubt Duncan is more importent to SA than Dirk to Dallas,and that Duncan is pressured much more than Dirk on offense,to get the bucket.
were coming back to the same point i mentioned earlier,Duncan doesnt have to put all his efforts on getting the shot,or making it accurete,

(E) Once again you are not making sense. Duncan doesen't put any less effort into putting points on the board than Dirk does. And because of the lack of support Duncan has compared to Dirk, it could be argued that he puts more effort considering the types of defenses he faces.


his ugly ass shot is a 10 feeter,and with high percantile of it,it doesnt get the same amount of focus and consitration that banking a fadeaway needs,so you cant expect BOTH of them to be that fresh going on defense.

(E) If your argument is that shooting a fadeaway and making requires more effort and concentration than backing someone down and banking one off the glass left side basline then that shows you have little understanding of the diffuculties of post play, footwork,countermoves etc. And as for not being able to expect them both to be fresh on defense, yes you can. Forget Tim Duncan, what about guards in the league like Gary Payton,Kobe Bryant etc? These guys expel more effort getting their own shot and making it than even Nowitzki does, yet they still manage to be top tier defenders. If Nowitzki can't do both then once again, that's Dirk's fault, not Duncan's. Let's take TD out of the mix completly. Rather than compare Dirk to a guy who puts up comparable offensive production, what about a guy like Mutumbo? Mutumbo doesen't put near the effort into his offensive game Nowitzki or Duncan do. That doesen't change the fact that Mutumbo, in his prime, a 4 time defensive player of the year, is much more of a defensive presence than both of them.



<< >>



when the other team shoots?you mean Dirks defensive boards??he has about 0.7 defensive boards less per game than duncan,so im sorry i did quite get your point. >>



?? You said that Nowitzki wasn't even a worse defender than Duncan, it's just that Nowitzki concentrated on offense whereas Duncan concentrated on rebounds. Since 90% of rebounds come when the other team has possession and any concentration on offense at that juncture would be ineffective at best (since you are on defense) I asked you to clarify what the hell you mean't. I am no closer to understanding.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

<< sorry to tell ya but its pretty average percantile for a post up player, >>



hua?!WTF are you talking about?why do you think most teams dedicate the entire offensive play to getting the ball in the post?can you even compare PFs and centers percantages to guards?!what the hell are you talking about?!!wait,i copyed for you the top FG% in the league,and expect harpring,well...

1. Eddy Curry ( Chicago Bulls) 335 573 .585
2. Shaquille O'Neal ( Los Angeles Lakers) 695 1,211 .574
3. Carlos Boozer ( Cleveland Cavaliers) 331 618 .536
4. P.J. Brown ( New Orleans Hornets) 319 601 .531
5. Radoslav Nesterovic ( Minnesota Timberwolves) 400 762 .525
6. Nene Hilario ( Denver Nuggets) 321 619 .519
7. Tim Duncan ( San Antonio Spurs) 714 1,392 .513
8. Matt Harpring ( Utah Jazz) 521 1,020 .511
9. Pau Gasol ( Memphis Grizzlies) 569 1,116 .510
10. Brian Grant ( Miami Heat) 344 676 .509
11. Kevin Garnett ( Minnesota Timberwolves) 743 1,481 .502
11. Elton Brand ( Los Angeles Clippers) 451 899 .502

they're all forwards or centers!duh!



<< FYI. Illgauskas shot 44% this season. >>



FYI,illgauskas doesnt even have a post up game,he shoots from midrange,anything else?



<< (E) From what I've seen, I'd give Duncan the definite edge in terms of passing ability. If you think Dirk would match his numbers if he handled the ball more, that's certainly an entitled to opinion. I'm sure it isn't hard, and if it isn't, then Dirk should match it. Until then... >>



i actualy think he would,maybe next year,maybe a couple more,and if he stays alone he'll pass duncans numbers with ease.but like you said,its a matter of opinion,so dont tell me how superior passer TD is.



<< (E)That has nothing to do with mental effort and once again this is poor reasoning. Punishing Duncan because Dirk has to earn all his points without a strong post game makes no more sense than Punishing Nowitzki because Duncan can't hit a jumpshot outside 11 feet.I'm sorry but if Dirk has to work Harder to get his points than Duncan does for argument's sake (which I don't agree) then that isn't Duncan's problem it's Nowitzki's. And this still has nothing to do with rebounding. >>



were going round and round here,i didnt said its TDs fault,but if you talk about Pure Rebounding abileties,you have to consider the amount of efforts he spends on offense,and in that department,Dirk almost lives by his offense,he's knowen only for an offensive player(not something im happy about),so its kinda hard to say he got the same energy going playing D than O.




<< Sorry bro But I'm not just going to take your word for it. Can you document some statistical source from the season showing Dirk pulling down 12 boards a game? >>



well do,give me a couple of days.



<< Once again you are not making sense. Duncan doesen't put any less effort into putting points on the board than Dirk does. And because of the lack of support Duncan has compared to Dirk, it could be argued that he puts more effort considering the types of defenses he faces. >>



no it doesnt,all it means is he gets the ball on almost every offensive play,i dont believe it really matters to a player like duncan,if he shoots the ugly ass shot over one guy or two.
its the same shot,in the same Midrange,and with the same board.
he'll have some more difficulties getting to a position he can shoot,but if he doesnt,he just pass the ball,hence the 3.9 assists per game.



<< If your argument is that shooting a fadeaway and making requires more effort and concentration than backing someone down and banking one off the glass left side basline then that shows you have little understanding of the diffuculties of post play, footwork,countermoves etc. And as for not being able to expect them both to be fresh on defense, yes you can. Forget Tim Duncan, what about guards in the league like Gary Payton,Kobe Bryant etc? These guys expel more effort getting their own shot and making it than even Nowitzki does, yet they still manage to be top tier defenders. If Nowitzki can't do both then once again, that's Dirk's fault, not Duncan's. Let's take TD out of the mix completly. Rather than compare Dirk to a guy who puts up comparable offensive production, what about a guy like Mutumbo? Mutumbo doesen't put near the effort into his offensive game Nowitzki or Duncan do. That doesen't change the fact that Mutumbo, in his prime, a 4 time defensive player of the year, is much more of a defensive
presence than both of them >>



sorry to ansewr the last thing first but hua??(about Dikembe).your just making my point,he wasnt a tool on offense,and most of the time the ball just past around him,so he had energy to get the boards he needed and guard like he did.
now about being fresh on energy,i didnt said you cant expect it,i said it takes some energy out of you.
Dirk is close to a medioucre Defensive player at best,and when his wasting all his energy on Offense,its hard for him to be dominant on the boards and block all those shots.
Kobe is a good defender,not amazing,but good,and thats way his in a way a phenomenon,and Gary is one of the best,if not the best,defensive guard to ever play the game.
Dont compare Dirk to those guys since he isnt even close to their defense,but is required to do more on Defense,such as battle for the loose ball,be threatening to a penetrating player and such.



<< You said that Nowitzki wasn't even a worse defender than Duncan, it's just that Nowitzki concentrated on offense whereas Duncan concentrated on rebounds. Since 90% of rebounds come when the other team has possession and any concentration on offense at that juncture would be ineffective at best (since you are on defense) I asked you to clarify what the hell you mean't. I am no closer to understanding. >>



i didnt said Dirk was as good of a defensive player as TD,i said it wasnt as big a gap as you made it to be.
Secondly,Hua?!im having a hard time understanding your point,but i'll try to ansewr your question about rebounds.
Defensive rebounds most of the time doesnt take much effort,thats how guards get their Rebounds,and other player who arent exactly 7 feet.
on the other heand,getting an offensive Board,takes a hole lot of energy out of ya,and you have to battle with the Defenders,trying to box you out,and jump over them,after you just ran the offense.
My point is,Rebounding is a bigger part in TDs game,than Dirks,so he makes more of an effort getting them boards than Dirk,and Offense is a bigger part of dirks offense,thats why he's up almost 2 points a game,and i believe almost 4 points a game,next year,but for that you'd just have to wait and see.

[WayOutWest]

I find alot of fault with some of the reasoning about TD vs. Dirk.

It's more difficult for TD to score than Dirk. Scoring in the post takes more effort than scoring from the perimeter the way Dirk does. TD get's banged, bodied and doubled in the post and still manages to score. If you think scoring on two players is no different than scoring on one then you don't know the game of b-ball. It's difficult to double Dirk becasue he plays on the perimeter and his height makes most doubles off guards ineffective so very often Dirk finds himself having to score on only one defender. How would Dirk like a guy ridding his back while he's trying to square up for a shot and only back off when he's about to release the shot?

TD expends TWICE as much energy as Dirk because he actually plays both ends of the court. He's responsible for the bulk of the Spurs offense because the offense runs through him and he also anchors the defense. There is no comparrison between the two players at this point.

&quot;Defensive rebounds most of the time doesnt take much effort,thats how guards get their Rebounds,and other player who arent exactly 7 feet.
on the other heand,getting an offensive Board,takes a hole lot of energy out of ya,and you have to battle with the Defenders,trying to box you out,and jump over them,after you just ran the offense.&quot;

That comment pretty much summarizes the illogical points of this debate. You want to say that defensive rebounding doesn't take the effort/energy of offensive rebounding becasue the offensive rebounder has to use energy to battle defenders trying to box you out? LOL! I guess the defenders are expending no energy because establishing position and boxing out just happens. Sorry but at this point I can't take this arguement seriously and just goes to show why players like TD, KG, Kobe, Kidd and T-Mac are so special because they play both ends very effectively.

[digit]

<< It's more difficult for TD to score than Dirk. Scoring in the post takes more effort than scoring from the perimeter the way Dirk does. TD get's banged, bodied and doubled in the post and still manages to score. If you think scoring on two players is no different than scoring on one then you don't know the game of b-ball. It's difficult to double Dirk becasue he plays on the perimeter and his height makes most doubles off guards ineffective so very often Dirk finds himself having to score on only one defender. How would Dirk like a guy ridding his back while he's trying to square up for a shot and only back off when he's about to release the shot? >>



You never played basketball in a team in an organized league with a first class coach, right?? How can you say, that it`s more difficult to score near the basket?? Also, I wonder why Centers have 50+ FG%...looks not that difficult to me...TD has got the body and the skills to do what he does best...same with Dirk...complete nonsense to say, that it`s more DIFFICULT to score near the basket...

[WayOutWest]

<< You never played basketball in a team in an organized league with a first class coach, right?? How can you say, that it`s more difficult to score near the basket?? Also, I wonder why Centers have 50+ FG%...looks not that difficult to me...TD has got the body and the skills to do what he does best...same with Dirk...complete nonsense to say, that it`s more DIFFICULT to score near the basket... >>



You're not paying attention. I said it's more difficult to score in the post not near the basket. There's a difference between scoring in the post and scoring near the basket. Just ask the players at Princeton and the Kings, who where running a layup drill last night on ESPN.

[nowitzki_prophecy]

<< t's more difficult for TD to score than Dirk. Scoring in the post takes more effort than scoring from the perimeter the way Dirk does. TD get's banged, bodied and doubled in the post and still manages to score. If you think scoring on two players is no different than scoring on one then you don't know the game of b-ball. It's difficult to double Dirk becasue he plays on the perimeter and his height makes most doubles off guards ineffective so very often Dirk finds himself having to score on only one defender. How would Dirk like a guy ridding his back while he's trying to square up for a shot and only back off when he's about to release the shot? >>



what scary ass games did you saw growing up?when duncan shoots over the double,he just rises and shoots over the double,he doesnt fight them to go to the hoop,and if he did fight them,he released the ball shortly after.
yea,Dirk spands much much more energy on offense,since he actualy has to move to put some points registerd.
Dirk penetrates and is and goes for the foul,while TD is foul shooting over a player,without budging,Dirk shoots the three,TD shoots the 10 feeter,you wanna tell me whats more mentaly strained?!!



<< TD expends TWICE as much energy as Dirk because he actually plays both ends of the court. He's responsible for the bulk of the Spurs offense because the offense runs through him and he also anchors the defense. There is no comparrison between the two players at this point. >>



bullshit,i wanna see T ugly shot D guarding Guards like they make Dirk guard.
usuelly dirk does a great job on the forwards and centers,but i like i said,he cant exactly bring himself to block a shot since he's exausted running coast to coast.



<< That comment pretty much summarizes the illogical points of this debate. You want to say that defensive rebounding doesn't take the effort/energy of offensive rebounding becasue the offensive rebounder has to use energy to battle defenders trying to box you out? LOL! I guess the defenders are expending no energy because establishing position and boxing out just happens. Sorry but at this point I can't take this arguement seriously and just goes to show why players like TD, KG, Kobe, Kidd and T-Mac are so special because they play both ends very effectively. >>



hmm... yea!defensive rebounds are much easier to obtain,you wanna question that to?as one who played the game im telling you Boxing out isnt hard if you do it smart,if you know where your guy is,and it certainly aint difficult.
while the offensive board is an entirely different story,you have to miss the Box out and set yourself in a good position for the offensive board,while your sorrouned by the other team,since your team is going Back to D.
to be a good Offensive rebounder means,to actualy dedicate a significant part of your game to pounding the oposition on the offensive glass.
you cant strugle all game long to the Offensive board and than run coast to coast like Dirk likes to do,or even just try to be accurete when you shoot a long jumper.
have you ever tried to shoot a three when your Finished?when your so tired you cant feel your legs?now what did you do,you start playing post,cause it takes less accurecy and less energy of your game.

FYI,Tracy isnt that good of a defender,and he's a good example too,he shoots the three more times in a game than Dirk,most of his shots are fadeaways,so despite being 6'8,he grabs about 5.5 boards a game,something like 1!!!block per game,and like i said,isnt that good of a defender.
there are some amazing players like Payton!!!not Kidd!!Payton!!!who could do both,but they are rare to find,and Duncan certainly isnt one of them.



<< You're not paying attention. I said it's more difficult to score in the post not near the basket. There's a difference between scoring in the post and scoring near the basket. Just ask the players at Princeton and the Kings, who where running a layup drill last night on ESPN. >>



i dont get what your arguing here,its pretty much a known fact that Post game is a very high percentile game,since its hard to stop a player shooting from 10 feet.
thats why ,Eddy curry shoots 58% from the floor,while the top three pointer is Bruce Bowen(i think) and he shoots 44% for three.
thats why almost every offensive play is neither getting the ball down low for the post game,or moving the pick and throwing it in for a Midrange shot or a lay-up.

[XnTX]

I don't think the goal for Dirk is 1st team All-NBA.

There will always be Duncan and Garnett. If he is always the 3rd best Forward in the league, it wouldn't surprise me. We are comparing him to all-time greats in those two, before it's all said and done.

Still,I think he has 1st Team ability. This year I would have put 3 forwards on the team.