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Old 11-18-2004, 11:31 AM   #1
Poindexter Einstein
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Default Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

I see all these posts about how the Mavs went to a zone and it did well. Then it ran out of steam, or Nellie lost faith, or blah blah blah...Bradley did well, then wasnt so good, etc ...

NONSENSE.

There is one factor that no one seems to notice, that allowed the zone (and Bradley) to do well. And when it changed, it was over. And it had nothing to do with Mavs rotations, fatigue, lineup, or whatnot.

Here is the main reason why the zone stopped working, why Bradley wasnt as effective after the 8:30 mark in the 4th, and why the Mavs lost the lead ....

...drumroll, please ....

...and the answer is ...

...Stoudemire came back into the game!

That's it. They couldnt stop Stoudemire with a zone, a man, anything. He went out for a rest about the time Bradley came in and the Mavs went to a zone, and it looked real effective. But when he came back in, whoosh the Mavs got killed no matter what defense they tried on him.
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:50 AM   #2
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Wrongo. Both Bradley and Amare were in the game to start the third quarter. In the time that both shared the floor in the 3rd the Mavs were +8 on the scoreboard (I'm going off of popcornmachine.net's stats, btw), and Amare totaled only 4 points (1-3 fga's, 2-6 fta's) to go along with 4 rebounds and one steal. When Amare went to the bench the Mavs continued by outscoring the Suns by 6 up until he returned, at which point the momentum died.
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Old 11-18-2004, 11:56 AM   #3
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Didn't Bradley play the entire third quarter? Didn't Stoudamire play almost the entire third quarter, too? Didn't the Mavs make an enormous run in that third quarter? Didn't the Mavs shut Amare down to only one made field goal in that quarter? Those facts kind of shoot your theory to shit, don't they? The zone crippled Amare and the Suns in the third. It was only until late in the fourth, after Bradley had been playing for almost 20 minutes straight, did the Suns start looking halfway effective against the zone.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:09 PM   #4
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
It was only until the fourth, after Bradley had been playing for almost 20 minutes straight, ...
I seem to have noticed a couple of other occasions when Nelson has been running his centers for long, long, super-long stretches without a breather, and then sitting them for long, long rhythm-destroying stretches, or until game's end.

What's up with this?

Memo to Nellie:

1) You have four centers, with 24 fouls to give in shutting down the middle. Don't forget this.

2) Start looking for signs of fatigue with your post men after 6-7 minutes, and consider giving the guy on the floor a breather after 8-10 minutes, depending on game situation.

3) You should look to get at least a few minutes every couple of games for Booth/Mbenga, especially early in the season. This will help to keep them motivated, and will give you a chance to assess their performance in game situations. If, later in the season, based on performance earlier in the season, you see the need to shorten your bench with the result that DNPs/center increase, while individual minutes per game for the centers decreases, then so be it. But at least your big men should be able to enter the playoffs (hopefully!) well-rested.

More suggestions to come, as necessary.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:10 PM   #5
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
I see all these posts about how the Mavs went to a zone and it did well. Then it ran out of steam, or Nellie lost faith, or blah blah blah...Bradley did well, then wasnt so good, etc ...

NONSENSE.

There is one factor that no one seems to notice, that allowed the zone (and Bradley) to do well. And when it changed, it was over. And it had nothing to do with Mavs rotations, fatigue, lineup, or whatnot.

Here is the main reason why the zone stopped working, why Bradley wasnt as effective after the 8:30 mark in the 4th, and why the Mavs lost the lead ....

...drumroll, please ....

...and the answer is ...

...Stoudemire came back into the game!

That's it. They couldnt stop Stoudemire with a zone, a man, anything. He went out for a rest about the time Bradley came in and the Mavs went to a zone, and it looked real effective. But when he came back in, whoosh the Mavs got killed no matter what defense they tried on him.
Let's examine what PE has said.

Quote:
He went out for a rest about the time Bradley came in and the Mavs went to a zone, and it looked real effective.
Take a look at the play by play from the time that Bradley came into the game until the time he left. Also, take note of the time that Amare was on the court. I'll bold when Amare left the game and when he came back in the game to make this easier for some. Bradley came in at the beginning of the 3rd quarter and left with 6:22 left in the 4th.

(11:47) [PHX 57-43] Nash Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS) Assist: Johnson (4 AST)
(11:32) [DAL 45-57] D. Harris Driving Layup: Made (4 PTS)
(11:17) [PHX 59-45] Nash Fade Away: Made (10 PTS)
(11:02) [DAL] Nowitzki Turnover: Bad Pass (3 TO) Steal: Richardson (2 ST)
(10:51) [PHX] Stoudemire Jump Shot: Missed
(10:48) [PHX] Stoudemire Rebound (Off:2 Def:3)
(10:47) [DAL] Bradley Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(10:47) [PHX] Stoudemire Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(10:47) [PHX] Team Rebound
(10:47) [PHX] Stoudemire Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(10:46) [DAL] Nowitzki Rebound (Off:1 Def:7)
(10:34) [DAL] Bradley Jump Shot: Missed
(10:32) [PHX] Nash Rebound (Off:0 Def:4)
(10:26) [PHX] Nash Turnover: Bad Pass (5 TO) Steal: D. Harris (4 ST)
(10:26) [DAL] Team Timeout: Short
(10:14) [DAL 47-59] D. Harris Driving Layup: Made (6 PTS)
(9:56) [PHX] Nash Jump Shot: Missed
(9:54) [PHX] Marion Rebound (Off:5 Def:3)
(9:50) [DAL] Daniels Foul: Shooting (3 PF)
(9:50) [PHX] Richardson Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(9:50) [PHX] Team Rebound
(9:50) [PHX] Richardson Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(9:49) [DAL] D. Harris Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(9:36) [DAL] D. Harris Jump Shot: Missed
(9:34) [PHX] Richardson Rebound (Off:0 Def:6)
(9:30) [PHX 61-47] Marion Driving Layup: Made (12 PTS)
(9:14) [DAL] Howard Jump Shot: Missed
(9:13) [DAL] Nowitzki Layup Shot: Missed
(9:13) [DAL] Nowitzki Rebound (Off:2 Def:7)
(9:13) [DAL] Nowitzki Rebound (Off:3 Def:7)
(9:13) [PHX] Richardson Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(9:13) [DAL] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(9:13) [DAL] Team Rebound
(9:13) [DAL] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(9:11) [PHX] Marion Rebound (Off:5 Def:4)
(8:58) [PHX] Nash Turnover: Traveling (6 TO)
(8:46) [DAL] D. Harris Jump Shot: Missed
(8:44) [DAL] Team Rebound
(8:35) [DAL 49-61] Daniels Layup Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: D. Harris (3 AST)
(8:16) [PHX 64-49] Richardson Jump Shot: Made (13 PTS) Assist: Johnson (5 AST)
(8:08) [PHX] Marion Foul: Shooting (3 PF)
(8:08) [DAL 50-64] Nowitzki Free Throw 1 of 2 (13 PTS)
(8:08) [DAL 51-64] Nowitzki Free Throw 2 of 2 (14 PTS)
(7:57) [PHX] Richardson Turnover: Stepped out of Bounds (2 TO)
(7:47) [DAL 53-64] D. Harris Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS)
(7:35) [PHX] Johnson Foul: Offensive (2 PF)
(7:35) [PHX] Johnson Turnover: Foul (2 TO)
(7:35) [PHX] Team Timeout: Regular
(7:27) [DAL 55-64] D. Harris Jump Shot: Made (10 PTS)
(7:10) [PHX] Nash Jump Shot: Missed
(7:09) [PHX] Team Rebound
(7:09) [DAL] Bradley Foul: Loose Ball (2 PF)
(6:56) [PHX] Stoudemire Layup Shot: Missed
(6:54) [PHX 66-55] Stoudemire Tip Shot: Made (17 PTS)
(6:54) [PHX] Stoudemire Rebound (Off:3 Def:3)
(6:35) [DAL] Nowitzki Fade Away: Missed
(6:32) [DAL] Howard Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(6:30) [DAL] Howard Jump Shot: Missed
(6:30) [PHX] Marion Rebound (Off:5 Def:5)
(6:30) [DAL] Nowitzki Foul: Loose Ball (4 PF)
(6:13) [PHX] Richardson Jump Shot: Missed
(6:12) [PHX] Marion Rebound (Off:6 Def:5)
(5:59) [PHX] Marion Jump Shot: Missed
(5:57) [PHX] Richardson Rebound (Off:1 Def:6)
(5:56) [PHX] Richardson Layup Shot: Missed Block: Nowitzki (2 BLK)
(5:56) [DAL] Howard Substitution replaced by Stackhouse
(5:56) [DAL] Nowitzki Rebound (Off:4 Def:8)
(5:56) Nowitzki Jump Ball Nowitzki vs Richardson
(5:42) [DAL 57-66] Bradley Hook Shot: Made (2 PTS)
(5:25) [PHX] Nash Turnover: Bad Pass (7 TO) Steal: Bradley (1 ST)
(5:18) [DAL] Daniels Jump Shot: Missed
(5:18) [DAL] Nowitzki Rebound (Off:4 Def:8)
(5:18) [PHX] Richardson Foul: Loose Ball (2 PF)
(5:08) [DAL 59-66] Bradley Jump Shot: Made (4 PTS) Assist: Stackhouse (2 AST)
(5:01) [PHX] Nash Turnover: Bad Pass (8 TO) Steal: Bradley (2 ST)
(4:56) [DAL 61-66] Nowitzki Slam Dunk Shot: Made (16 PTS) Assist: D. Harris (4
(4:54) [PHX] Team Timeout: Regular
(4:34) [PHX] Johnson Jump Shot: Missed
(4:32) [DAL] Daniels Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(4:25) [DAL] Stackhouse Turnover: Bad Pass (1 TO) Steal: Stoudemire (2 ST)
(4:19) [PHX 68-61] Johnson Slam Dunk Shot: Made (7 PTS)
(4:04) [DAL 63-68] Bradley Dunk Shot: Made (6 PTS) Assist: Daniels (2 AST)
(3:42) [PHX] Johnson Jump Shot: Missed
(3:40) [PHX] Stoudemire Rebound (Off:4 Def:3)
(3:39) [DAL] Nowitzki Foul: Personal (5 PF)
(3:39) [PHX] Johnson Substitution replaced by Jacobsen
(3:39) [DAL] Nowitzki Substitution replaced by Howard
(3:39) [PHX 69-63] Stoudemire Free Throw 1 of 2 (18 PTS)
(3:39) [PHX 70-63] Stoudemire Free Throw 2 of 2 (19 PTS)
(3:26) [DAL] D. Harris Layup Shot: Missed
(3:25) [PHX] Stoudemire Rebound (Off:4 Def:4)
(3:21) [DAL] Bradley Foul: Shooting (3 PF)
(3:21) [PHX] Stoudemire Free Throw 1 of 2 missed
(3:21) [PHX] Team Rebound
(3:21) [PHX] Stoudemire Free Throw 2 of 2 missed
(3:20) [DAL] Bradley Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(3:13) [DAL 65-70] Howard Reverse Layup: Made (9 PTS) Assist: Daniels (3 AST)
(2:56) [PHX] Nash Jump Shot: Missed
(2:54) [DAL] Daniels Rebound (Off:1 Def:3)
(2:47) [DAL 67-70] Daniels Jump Shot: Made (8 PTS)
(2:22) [PHX] Marion Turnover: Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal: Stackhouse (1 ST)
(2:17) [DAL 69-70] Stackhouse Reverse Layup: Made (12 PTS) Assist: Daniels (4 A
(2:17) [PHX] Stoudemire Foul: Shooting (1 PF)
(2:17) [DAL 70-70] Stackhouse Free Throw 1 of 1 (13 PTS)
(2:05) [PHX 73-70] Richardson Jump Shot: Made (16 PTS) Assist: Jacobsen (2 AST)
(1:54) [PHX] Stoudemire Foul: Shooting (2 PF)
(1:54) [PHX] Stoudemire Substitution replaced by Hunter
(1:54) [DAL 71-73] Daniels Free Throw 1 of 2 (9 PTS)
(1:54) [DAL 72-73] Daniels Free Throw 2 of 2 (10 PTS)
(1:39) [PHX] Nash Jump Shot: Missed
(1:39) [PHX] Team Rebound
(1:36) [PHX] Marion Layup Shot: Missed Block: Bradley (1 BLK)
(1:36) [PHX] Team Rebound
(1:26) [PHX 75-72] Marion Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS) Assist: Jacobsen (3 AST)
(1:13) [DAL] D. Harris Jump Shot: Missed
(1:11) [PHX] Marion Rebound (Off:6 Def:6)
(1:03) [PHX 77-72] Hunter Jump Shot: Made (3 PTS) Assist: Nash (12 AST)
(0:51) [DAL] Daniels Jump Shot: Missed
(0:49) [PHX] Richardson Rebound (Off:1 Def:7)
(0:44) [PHX] Jacobsen Jump Shot: Missed
(0:42) [PHX] Marion Rebound (Off:7 Def:6)
(0:40) [PHX] Marion Layup Shot: Missed Block: Howard (1 BLK)
(0:38) [DAL] Bradley Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(0:33) [DAL 74-77] Stackhouse Reverse Layup: Made (15 PTS) Assist: D. Harris (5
(0:13) [PHX] Richardson Jump Shot: Missed
(0:10) [DAL] D. Harris Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
(0:00) [DAL 76-77] Stackhouse Jump Shot: Made (17 PTS)
(0:00) End Period

4th Period
(11:50) [DAL 79-77] D. Harris Jump Shot: Made (13 PTS)
(11:36) [PHX 79-79] Richardson Slam Dunk Shot: Made (18 PTS) Assist: Nash (13 A
(11:17) [DAL 81-79] Howard Jump Shot: Made (11 PTS)
(11:08) [PHX] Nash Turnover: Bad Pass (9 TO) Steal: D. Harris (5 ST)
(11:07) [DAL 83-79] D. Harris Driving Layup: Made (15 PTS)
(11:07) [PHX] Jacobsen Foul: Shooting (2 PF)
(11:07) [DAL] D. Harris Free Throw 1 of 1 missed
(11:06) [PHX] Hunter Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(10:52) [PHX] Jacobsen Jump Shot: Missed
(10:49) [DAL] Howard Rebound (Off:1 Def:3)
(10:45) [PHX] Jacobsen Foul: Personal (3 PF)
(10:40) [DAL] Stackhouse Jump Shot: Missed
(10:38) [PHX] Richardson Rebound (Off:1 Def:8)
(10:31) [PHX 81-83] Nash Jump Shot: Made (12 PTS)
(10:16) [PHX] Hunter Foul: Personal (1 PF)
(10:14) [DAL] D. Harris Jump Shot: Missed
(10:12) [PHX] Richardson Rebound (Off:1 Def:9)
(10:02) [PHX] Jacobsen Jump Shot: Missed
(10:00) [DAL] Stackhouse Rebound (Off:0 Def:1)
(9:46) [DAL 86-81] Daniels Jump Shot: Made (13 PTS) Assist: Stackhouse (3 AST)
(9:24) [PHX 83-86] Hunter Jump Shot: Made (5 PTS) Assist: Nash (14 AST)
(9:13) [DAL] Stackhouse Jump Shot: Missed
(9:11) [DAL] Daniels Rebound (Off:2 Def:3)
(8:59) [DAL] Stackhouse Jump Shot: Missed
(8:58) [DAL] Bradley Rebound (Off:1 Def:2)
(8:58) [PHX] Nash Foul: Personal (3 PF)
(8:58) Timeout: Official
(8:58) [PHX] Richardson Substitution replaced by Marion
(8:58) [PHX] Hunter Substitution replaced by Stoudemire
(8:47) [PHX] Nash Foul: Personal (4 PF)
(8:47) [DAL 87-83] Bradley Free Throw 1 of 2 (7 PTS)
(8:47) [DAL 88-83] Bradley Free Throw 2 of 2 (8 PTS)
(8:40) [PHX] Stoudemire Foul: Offensive (3 PF)
(8:40) [PHX] Stoudemire Turnover: Foul (2 TO)
(8:30) [DAL] D. Harris Layup Shot: Missed Block: Marion (2 BLK)
(8:27) [PHX] Nash Rebound (Off:0 Def:5)
(8:24) [PHX 85-88] Stoudemire Slam Dunk Shot: Made (21 PTS) Assist: Nash (15 AS
(8:01) [DAL] Daniels Jump Shot: Missed
(7:59) [PHX] Nash Rebound (Off:0 Def:6)
(7:45) [PHX 87-88] Nash Jump Shot: Made (14 PTS)
(7:29) [DAL] D. Harris Jump Shot: Missed
(7:27) [DAL] Daniels Rebound (Off:3 Def:3)
(7:26) [DAL] Daniels Layup Shot: Missed
(7:25) [PHX] Stoudemire Rebound (Off:4 Def:5)
(7:10) [PHX 89-88] Nash Jump Shot: Made (16 PTS)
(6:42) [DAL 90-89] Howard Jump Shot: Made (13 PTS)
(6:31) [PHX] Marion Jump Shot: Missed
(6:29) [PHX] Marion Rebound (Off:8 Def:6)
(6:22) [PHX 91-90] Stoudemire Layup Shot: Made (23 PTS) Assist: Nash (16 AST)
(6:22) [DAL] Daniels Foul: Shooting (4 PF)
(6:22) [DAL] Daniels Substitution replaced by Henderson
(6:22) [DAL] Bradley Substitution replaced by Nowitzki
(6:22) [PHX] Nash Substitution replaced by Richardson
(6:22) [PHX] Stoudemire Free Throw 1 of 1 missed
(6:22) [DAL] Team Rebound

What do we find?

Well, Bradley and Amare Stoudemire were in the game together the first time from the beginning of the third until the 1:54 mark of the 3rd. Amare left with Daniels shooting FT's.
At the beginning of the 3rd, the Mavs were down: 57-43
When Amare left at the 1:54 mark in the third the Mavs were down: 72-73
The Mavs picked up 13 points in slightly over 10 minutes with Bradley and Amare on the court at the same time in the third.

So, this obviously disproves PE's quote:
Quote:
He went out for a rest about the time Bradley came in and the Mavs went to a zone, and it looked real effective.
Obviously, the Mavs shaved 13 points in 10 minutes with both Amare and Bradley on the court at the same time.


Let's look at the time that Bradley was on the court without Amare in the game:
From just after the Daniels FT's at the 1:54 point in the third until the 8:58 point in the 4th, Bradley was in the game without Amare in the game.
The score went from Phoenix being up 73-72 to the Mavs being up 86-83.
So, in the 5 minutes that Amare was out of the game, the Mavs picked up 5 points.

Obviously, the zone was effective with Bradley on the court with and without Amare in the game.

Now, let's look at when Amare came back into the game in the 4th.
Amare came back in at the 8:58 mark in the point in the 4th.
The Mavs were up 86-83
When Bradley left the game at the 6:22, the Suns were up 91-90
So yes, there was a 4 point swing when Amare came back into the game with Bradley in the game.
Perhaps much of that is due to the Mavs missing several close in shots. Yes, Amare did score 4 points to Bradley's 2 points, but he in no way dominated the game in his return.
The Mavs were down 1 point when Bradley left the game.

With both Bradley and Amare on the court, the Mavs were +9 in around 12-13 minutes. So yeah, apparently the Mavs zone was effective with Bradley and Amare in the game at the same time. And yeah, the Mavs zone was effective when Amare was out of the game but with Bradley in. The Mavs were a plus 5 in about 5 minutes.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:15 PM   #6
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

You are right in that the players played against each other early in the 3rd. I was focusing on the small-ball zone (Bradley and the 4 guards) that played from the point Dirk got his 5th foul, and missed that.

But there is also no question that Stoudemire's presence made a huge difference and that he was THE difference down the stretch. He left late in the 3rd with a 3 pt Suns lead, came back to a 5 pt deficit in the 4th. Once he came back, it was mostly DUNK DUNK DUNK down the stretch.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:16 PM   #7
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Good analysis Murphy. I'd go further and say that the Suns better prepare themselves for more Bradley in the next three games they play agains the Mavericks. We've unlocked the key to shutting down Stoudamaire. His name is the Mantis.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:20 PM   #8
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
You are right in that the players played against each other early in the 3rd. I was focusing on the small-ball zone (Bradley and the 4 guards) that played from the point Dirk got his 5th foul, and missed that.

But there is also no question that Stoudemire's presence made a huge difference and that he was THE difference down the stretch. He left late in the 3rd with a 3 pt Suns lead, came back to a 5 pt deficit in the 4th. Once he came back, it was mostly DUNK DUNK DUNK down the stretch.
Yeah, he left in the third with a 3 point lead AFTER the Bradley led Mavs had shaved the Phoenix lead from 57-43 to 73-70. Plus, the foul in which Daniels was shooting FT's for occurred WHILE Amare was still in the game. So, if you want to be honest about the situation, the lead was cut to 73-72.

The Mavs shaved 11 points off the lead in 10 minutes with Bradley AND Amare on the court together in the 3rd quarter.

Quote:
came back to a 5 pt deficit in the 4th.
No, he came back at the 8:58 point with a 3 point deficit. The deficit was turned into a Suns 1 point lead by the time Bradley left the game 2.5 minutes later or so.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:21 PM   #9
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
Originally posted by: madape
Good analysis Murphy. I'd go further and say that the Suns better prepare themselves for more Bradley in the next three games they play agains the Mavericks. We've unlocked the key to shutting down Stoudamaire. His name is the Mantis.
But, Stoudemire didn't do much the short time that Dampier was in the game either. He basically ate Henderson and Booth alive.

Obviously, Shawn does deserve alot of PT the next time the Suns and Mavs play if he can manage to crawl out of Nellie's doghouse.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:28 PM   #10
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

I would have still liked to see Amare go against Damp one-on-one. In the few minutes Damp played, Amare was not nearly the brute force he became later in the game. I watched those few minutes over and over and there is no way Amare will push Damp around..actually he has having to pull him out away from the basket, which we all know is not Amare's game. Bradley will do well against most centers/dominant 4s in a zone so he deserves some real credit. Of course a zone is employed because your big cannot handle their big one-on-one...so in that sense, Bradley had much help guarding Amare with the quick double that the zone applies. All in all, the zone, with Bradley, looked good but would not have if the likes of Joe Johnson, Nash and Jacobson had gone nuts from three as is their usual habit so far this season. The zone can be used in spots against a team like the suns....but the ultimate up swing in having a defensive center who can play real man up defense is that you don't have to rely upon a zone which will leave the three open. Props to Bradley, and heres hoping we don't have to go zone too much this season against good shooting teams.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:28 PM   #11
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
But, Stoudemire didn't do much the short time that Dampier was in the game either. He basically ate Henderson and Booth alive.
One of the truly nice things about having a 1-2 punch at center of Damp and Bradley. They're effective in totally different ways. Between the two of them you can really keep an opposing offense off balance.
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Old 11-18-2004, 12:29 PM   #12
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

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Old 11-18-2004, 02:06 PM   #13
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Fine, Murph, it was a THREE point deficit for Phoenix when Stoudemire came back in. And it was a Phoenix LEAD when he left.

Nitpick nitpick nitpick ...

There still is no question that the game turned into a Stoudemire dunkfest in the 4th quarter and that the game's turn in Phoenix's direction began when he reentered.
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Old 11-18-2004, 02:15 PM   #14
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Phoenix managed PT for their big men better than Dallas did.


Fire Nellie.
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:01 PM   #15
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

It seems clear to me that there were two keys to the loss:

1) Improper use of the big men, specifically Bradley, and
2) Dirk's 5th foul coming so early on.

Bradley (and the zone) was VERY effective in containing Stoudemire. It wasn't until Henderson came in midway into the 4th that the Suns pulled away. Of course, if Bradley had gotten a breather with Stoudemire out, perhaps he would have been able to continue his excellent defensive work against Stoudemire when he came back from the bench.

It's hard to go from not playing ANY minutes to basically playing a whole half.

Just a thought.



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Old 11-18-2004, 03:17 PM   #16
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

3) rebounding
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:18 PM   #17
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

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Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
Fine, Murph, it was a THREE point deficit for Phoenix when Stoudemire came back in. And it was a Phoenix LEAD when he left.

Nitpick nitpick nitpick ...
Honestly, the only reason I believe that you incorrectly stated the amount of the lead was to further your cause after so many people had pointed out how incorrect you were with some of your statements. If I felt that it was a sincere mistake on screwing up on the actual number, I would have made a big deal about it.
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:20 PM   #18
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

You are exactly right, which corresponds perfectly to my point #1 on the my gameday observations:
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Observations from a complete homer Mavs fan seated in section 329 tonight at the AAC (me):

1) Nellie coached to lose this game...Playing freakin' Calvin Booth only in the 1st half, none in the 2nd half and playing Bradley only in the 2nd half and none in the 1s half. How your DNP-CD's get time in the 2nd toughtest game ytd is beyond me...and how you can find any consistency as a player when you are at a stoplight that constantly changes colors...stops and starts...
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:21 PM   #19
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
and how you can find any consistency as a player when you are at a stoplight that constantly changes colors...stops and starts...
Good question.
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Old 11-18-2004, 03:22 PM   #20
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

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Originally posted by: alby
3) rebounding
Good point, although I think the Mavs win in spite of the rebounding deficit if they have a little better luck with Dirk's foul situation and use their centers better.

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Old 11-18-2004, 03:25 PM   #21
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

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Originally posted by: kg_veteran
Quote:
and how you can find any consistency as a player when you are at a stoplight that constantly changes colors...stops and starts...
Good question.
You just have to hope that the opposing team is just as confused if not more as Hubie Brown does. Thusfar the opposing team has continued to do their thing while profiting from the confusion.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:28 PM   #22
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Murph, you cant see the forest for the trees - you get so intent on proving someone wrong that you lose of what they say. You and others pointed out my errors. Did I argue? Nope, I acknowledged them.

So when you NITPICK stuff that I pulled right off the play-by-play, minor items that were unintentional and really irrelevant, you dont prove anything either way - but you do come off as a jerk. I had already agreed that I had made an error before - and you wanted to grind me some more on a minor mistake?

Yes, I know, you have told me before - you arent here to make friends, you prefer to come off as a jerk and grind people into the dirt if they say something you dont like - so yep you have succeeded in doing it again.

You dont think Stoudemire was huge down the stretch? You dont think his entrance back into the game was a major swing? So be it. I still say the game swung when he reentered and that the trend of the game changed with his dunk after dunk that NO ONE stopped after he came back in. ~shrugs~
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:36 PM   #23
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Of course Amare was huge down the stretch, BUT I believe that most of that came after Bradley left the game. I will have to look that up.

And like I said, I do not believe that your 'mistake' was unintentional.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:46 PM   #24
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

I believe Amare had 23 points when Bradley left the game with slightly under 9 minutes left in the 4th. Stoudemire finished the game with 34 points.

All of the data provided in the posts in this thread more or less shows that the Mavs were much more effective during the game with Bradley on the court regardless of whether or not Amare was in the game. It also shows that Amare dominated the game when Bradley was off the court for the most part.
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Old 11-18-2004, 04:55 PM   #25
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

"And like I said, I do not believe that your 'mistake' was unintentional."

Then screw you - you are both wrong AND an ass. It didnt effect my point either way, and as you yourself noted, the differences were minor and looked like what I said.

When Stoudemire left, it was a 3-point Phoenix lead if we are getting technical - but my point was that PHOENIX WAS AHEAD. When he came back in, Dallas was ahead by 3 (though it looked like 5, the way my play-by-play sheet was printed), but the point was DALLAS WAS AHEAD. The point was, the lead swung when he was out, and swung back the other way shen he returned.

Did he dunk on Bradley down the stretch? Yep and on everyone else too. Does it matter that the only shot he missed in the 4th quarter was when Bradley was on the bench? Not really. If you want to get down to the minor seconds of who was in for every one of his 15 points from the time he entered to the end, that is such minutae that it loses the point: he was an unstoppable beast with 15 points in the final 8 1/2 minutes of the game. Phoenix was BEHIND when he entered, he scored 15 of their last 24 points, and they won fairly easily (with the lead reaching 10).
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:00 PM   #26
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

"I believe Amare had 23 points when Bradley left the game with slightly under 9 minutes left in the 4th. Stoudemire finished the game with 34 points."

And by the way, there are several factual errors in what YOU posted there - whether they are intentional or not, who knows or cares, though you seem to think ANY errors in this discussion MUST BE intentional, dont you? - but they are irrelevant, so I just blew past them.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:07 PM   #27
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

PE, the bottom line is that there were alot of holes in the cocky statement that you threw out to start the thread.

I really don't want to fight with you over this because grndmstr_c, Madape, and myself have already done a good enough job to disprove much of your original statement.

I'm not going to resort to calling you an 'ass' or anything else. I don't believe it's appropriate for this board...sure, maybe a place like mavtalk or db.com, but not here.


P.S. I love your posts.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:17 PM   #28
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

The zone is effective when the opposing team becomes tentative offensively and settles for lower percentage shots. The best way to beat the zone is to have an attack mentality.

Phoenix figured that out later in the game when they stopped settling for jump shots and started to attack the zone regardless of who played center. Bradley is still the most effective center we have for the zone.

The other factor that beat the Mavs is the Mavs poor shooting. Specifically, Dirk's lower than average FG% at the end of the game. That may be attributed to Marion's defense or just a poor night for Dirk, either way at full strength, I think the Mavs are still slightly better than this Phoenix team. However, on Tuesday night Phoenix played like the better team.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:26 PM   #29
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

"P.S. I love your posts. "

Saying that does NOT assuage my anger over your jerk-level statement that i supposedly INTENTIONALLY posted an error in facts in what I offered. I did make errors - and guess what, I acknowledged them. To then act like I am intentionally trying to deceive, to prove a point, is insulting, degrading, and offensive.

If you "love" my posts, you owe me an apology. You act all high-and-mighty with your "i wont insult" crap - when your insult was the one that triggered my anger. I am not impressed in the least with the way you compare yourself to other boards, when you intentionally inflame. How are you any different, other than your insults with a "better than everyone else" condescension added?

Note that I did NOT nitpick YOUR supposed facts that painted Bradley in a better light than the facts were - you made several factual errors in that stuff. But you didnt correct it yourself with the same vigor you correct me - why is that? And note - i dont have an agenda against Bradley, so this has NOTHING to do with making him look good or bad either way, from where i sit.

If crappy behavior is NOT appropriate for this board, then you owe me an apology - cause if you have any clue about my posts, then you know I have always made every attempt to offer accuracy with my arguments. And this was no different.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:32 PM   #30
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Poindexter, your main point was that the zone stopped working because Stoudemire came back into the game and dominated in the 4th quarter. The zone and Bradley were effective against Stoudemire in the 3rd quarter -- very effective. I think a pretty good argument could be made that if Bradley had been taken out when Stoudemire was in the late third and then brought back in after some rest to deal with Stoudemire in the 4th, the results might have been very different.

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Old 11-18-2004, 05:38 PM   #31
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Nobody disputes that Amare was a factor in Phoenix's win. I propose, however, that it was a shift in Phoenix's offensive mentality against the zone that led to their eventual win.

Amare was an effective agent of that shift, no doubt, but the entire team attacked the zone more efficiently in the 4th. Add to that a lack of consistent offense from the Mavs, and you have an eventual loss for the Mavs.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:38 PM   #32
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

The reason why I nitpicked what you said is because you incorrectly stating the actual scores or point swings HELPED your argument. Perhaps you did make an honest mistake. If so, that's fine. However, you were using the numbers to help your argument when in fact the numbers that you were using were incorrect.

Can we get back to the main issues in your original post? That would be just grand.

And yes, the Suns did have a three point lead when Amare left in the third. However, Daniels was shooting FT's for a foul that occurred while he was in the game. Please do not say 'if you want to be technical' or whatever. It makes it look as if you're grasping at straws.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:43 PM   #33
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
Originally posted by: kingrex
Nobody disputes that Amare was a factor in Phoenix's win. I propose, however, that it was a shift in Phoenix's offensive mentality against the zone that led to their eventual win.

Amare was an effective agent of that shift, no doubt, but the entire team attacked the zone more efficiently in the 4th. Add to that a lack of consistent offense from the Mavs, and you have an eventual loss for the Mavs.
I believe that they were more effective attacking the zone because Bradley appeared extremely fatigued and unable to contest as many shots when he came out of the game. And yes, I do believe that the Suns attacking the bucket helped their cause as well. However, a tired Bradley made it much easier to attack the rim.
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:53 PM   #34
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Screw you, Murph. I dont buy your story, and you are jerkier than ever, the farther you take this. Should we believe that all of your errors (and there were SEVERAL, which you still dont acknowledge), that you said about Bradley/Stoudemire in the 4th were INTENTIONAL, because they all advanced your point? You better call yourself an intentional liar, if "an error that supports what you are saying" is intentional, by your definition. Were you lying your ass off there?

Now to what you other guys said - cause you want to talk about the point, that is under discussion ...

KG - you offer a good alternative to my point ... that Bradley could have done better if he had been removed when Stoudemire was ... that one is hard to validate either way, since Bradley couldnt stop Stoudemire in the 4th, got a rest, came back, and again was NOT able to stop him ... so was Stoudemire playing better, was Phoenix doing a better job of attacking, or what?

The inability to stop Stoudemire is certain ... my sense was that it was due to him being on the bench (which CERTAINLY stops him) and it seems that every combo (including Bradley/zone) didnt in the 4th ...

KING ... there is no question that Phoenix was better offensively in the 4th - but you get back to chicken and egg ... were they effective because Phoenix was doing a better job of attacking and utilizing Stoudemire, or because Dallas was unable to handle him? Either way, the end result is that no one stopped Stoudemire inside in the 4th ...15 points, mostly on point blank shots, is huge in a single quarter
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Old 11-18-2004, 05:53 PM   #35
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

In order to avoid some sort of mini-feud (sorry to both of you if you wanted to have one), I'd like to point out that Poindexter made a factual mistake in his initial post, and he admitted it. That should be enough to end the argument over the details of the minute mark when players came in and out and so forth. Let's move the discussion along to something more productive, like whether the zone was ineffective because Bradley was tired or because Stoudemire was simply dominant. That seems to be the main disagreement here, and all of the other stuff is getting in the way of an interesting thread.

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Old 11-18-2004, 06:03 PM   #36
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

Quote:
KG - you offer a good alternative to my point ... that Bradley could have done better if he had been removed when Stoudemire was ... that one is hard to validate either way, since Bradley couldnt stop Stoudemire in the 4th, got a rest, came back, and again was NOT able to stop him ... so was Stoudemire playing better, was Phoenix doing a better job of attacking, or what?

The inability to stop Stoudemire is certain ... my sense was that it was due to him being on the bench (which CERTAINLY stops him) and it seems that every combo (including Bradley/zone) didnt in the 4th ...
When Bradley and Amare were both fresh coming out of the locker room at halftime, Amare managed 2 points ( I believe ) while the two were in the game at the same time in the third.

While in the 4th when Amare came back in after a long rest while Bradley had been on the court since the beginning of the second half, Amare scored 4 points to Bradley's 2 points in the 2.5 minutes or so...

It's really difficult to say that Amare dominated at any point while Bradley was in the game. Judging from the stats and judging from what I saw during the game, it looked more like Bradley was dragging by the time Amare came back in the game.

The stats and what I saw show that Amare dominated everyone other than Bradley and Dampier. So, it doesn't seem like too much of a leap of faith to believe that a rest for Bradley at some point while Amare was out of the game could have had a significant positive impact down the stretch in the 4th.
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Old 11-18-2004, 06:06 PM   #37
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

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Originally posted by: Poindexter Einstein
KG - you offer a good alternative to my point ... that Bradley could have done better if he had been removed when Stoudemire was ... that one is hard to validate either way, since Bradley couldnt stop Stoudemire in the 4th, got a rest, came back, and again was NOT able to stop him ... so was Stoudemire playing better, was Phoenix doing a better job of attacking, or what?
If my recall is correct (feel free to nitpick me if I'm wrong), Stoudemire scored a couple of hoops when he came back in to start the 4th, and then when Shawn came back in he may have scored one more hoop and a FT or two, but it seemed to me that the bulk of his damage was done when Shawn went out and Henderson was guarding him. Also, it seemed to me that Shawn was tired as the 4th quarter started. I guess my main point is that if Shawn had been rested near the end of the third and/or to start the 4th, he MIGHT have been better able to deter Stoudemire in the 4th quarter. I don't know that, that's just my perception.

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The inability to stop Stoudemire is certain ... my sense was that it was due to him being on the bench (which CERTAINLY stops him) and it seems that every combo (including Bradley/zone) didnt in the 4th ...
He was big-time in the 4th, one way or the other. That said, if we can use our centers more effectively against him next time (and have people healthy, certainly), I think we'll handle the Suns pretty easily. They're not a deep team and they really can't protect the rim if you attack them often enough. But that's another subject.

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Old 11-18-2004, 06:07 PM   #38
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

"While in the 4th when Amare came back in after a long rest while Bradley had been on the court since the beginning of the second half, Amare scored 4 points to Bradley's 2 points in the 2.5 minutes or so..."

Are these deliberate errors, since they support your point? You omit the rest of the time in the 4th, dont you. And this contradicts your earlier numbers, doesnt it? More deliberate errors?
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Old 11-18-2004, 06:07 PM   #39
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Default RE:Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

One other point about Bradley. I'll readily concede that if he had played in the first half, he might have fouled out before the end of the game. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
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Old 11-18-2004, 06:12 PM   #40
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Default RE: Why zone worked for a while vs PHO

KG "They're not a deep team and they really can't protect the rim if you attack them often enough"

On that we definitely agree. The loss of Dampier was huge on offense as well as defense. The Mavs got to the rim repeatedly in the first but failed to finish an unusual number of times, and in any other game the Mavs end the 1st up by 10 or more it seemed, instead of 2.
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