A General who Came Out Against Bush - Comes Out for Hillary - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Janett_Reno · 11-12-2007, 08:24 PM

A General who Came Out Against Bush - Comes Out for Hillary

http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/11/12/133551/71

On Veterans Day, Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton endorsed Hillary Clinton to be President of the United States.

"I'm standing with Hillary Clinton today, because she has stood with us," said Major General Eaton. "No one in this race has the strength and expertise on military and veterans' issues that Hillary Clinton possesses."

General Eaton was a leader in the "Generals Revolt" against Bush.

"The (Bush) administration has dumped the entire Middle East problem onto the back of the soldier and the Marine," retired Maj. Gen. Paul Eaton said in an interview from his Fox Island home. "The 'surge,' a modest success, is counterbalanced by our failure to get out a diplomatic surge. ... I believe this administration is incompetent beyond any dream of the American people. This administration is a one-trick pony: military action, military action, military action." Eaton is a product of the U.S. Military Academy. He is the son of a fellow West Point grad, an Air Force pilot who went missing over Laos 38 years ago. Both of Eaton's sons have followed him into the military, one of them to West Point.

Still, after a 2003-2004 tour of duty in Iraq, he was among the earliest to critique then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and the neo-conservative warriors of the Bush Pentagon. "It is not typical of retired generals to go to the media. It is not customary for retired generals to make public displays of criticism toward administration policy. But it is our duty, under oath, to support and defend the Constitution. It is not a matter of duty to support and defend the administration."

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Neocon Sandwich: U.S. Building Military Base Directly Atop Iraqi Oil Platform

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/1...i_n_72174.html

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Black military enlistment drops under Bush.

They Fought For The Right To Fight

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...e3485906.shtml

In the last several years under President Bush, black enlistment in the Army has dropped “by about half.” CBS News reports that this trend is fueled by strong dissatisfaction with Bush’s Iraq policies:

The Department of Defense has studied why black enlistment has plummeted and found many of the people they call “influencers” in the black community - parents, teachers, clergy - feel in general that Bush administration policies have hurt African Americans. And more than any other group, they oppose the war in Iraq. […]

But even here, there are gung-ho Marines troubled by this war. Albert Thames retired as a staff sergeant 30 years ago.

“The war is very unpopular, and it’s going to get worse,” he said. “As long as it’s a volunteer army, I’d tell ‘em not to volunteer.”

“A recent CBS News poll showed 83 percent of African-American respondents said the Iraq invasion was a mistake. In addition, the president’s approval rating has hit rock-bottom with black voters at about 9 percent, according to a 2006 Pew Research Center poll.”
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Once again i remind you. We went in because of weapons of mass destruction and this was a "made up" story. It was no wmd's, so what do the neocons say well they have them hid somewhere. Then they say they are going after Al Queda when Al Queda is in Pakistan, Ahgahnastan and other places but it was no Al Queda in Iraq when Sadam was there. Why? They was scarred of him, just like Iran was scarred of him. Now Al Queda is in Iraq. So after we tell about 10 differnet reasons we went into Iraq and none came true, we say Sadam was a bad man and we wanted to free the people. Think maybe we need to free them in China?

The truth was told by Republican Alan Greenspan, we went to war because of oil. Iraq's oil fields will last 30 to 40 years and we happen to have big time oil neocons in the adm that wanted to turn those oil fields loose and flow. Sadam was pissing them off. What do we get out of this? Gas is at $3.00 a gallon and going up or over $4.00 a gallon as the neocons get rich. The tax payers has spent over 600 billion to get higher gas prices, a low dollar, loss of many lifes in Iraq, you have your freedom and privacy and taken away, under w we are now a slave to China and owe them ever red cent we can muster up. Run away spending by someone that knows nothing of economics. I remind you again and you better not take this with a grain of salt, you better get out of debt. We are heading into a recession like Greenspan said and if you do not know what recession is, you need to google it up and read. We could possibly go into a depression but let's hope this doesn't happen. The interest rates you are paying now is going up and mark my words on this and it will be atleast double of what they are now.

The credit cards and banks are going to be harder on you calling in more loans and if you find yourself struggling now, you better get out and work 2 or 3 jobs or do what you can to pay those bills off or down because it is going to get alot worse than what you are living now. You must play the game the way the neocons do and that is cash is king. Get out of debt and you will thank me later. As far as Iraq, we are going to stay like we do in South Korea and where we have a base in Iraq unless it gets to hot and bad and we have to get out.

Sadam told someone in our military that could speak his language and we sent him over to get as much information from Sadam(for months staying and talking to him daily) as we could while we had him locked up and before he was hung. He told him that why he was pretending to have wmd's or stalling was to keep Iran afraid of him. Where Iran wouldn't over run his country. Now is this true or not, i do not know but it did cost Sadam his life to find out he did not have wmd's. I think he did admit they did not have any.

Guess who is comming out smelling like a rose? Iran. Maybe Syria and Saudi Arabia. Why do you think W and Chains wants to attack Iran now? The neocons say they will not talk or bargain with Iran and Syria. So this means it will be struggles and it will be waves of attacks comming into Iraq. For years to come. Iran and Syria do not want the usa and Saudi to have those oil fields. It is other big time players and countries that do not want us to have that either. These neocons thought it would be a cakewalk right on in to Iran and now China and Russia says wait just a minute, not so fast as we get our oil in Iran. I am guessing, the neocons thought this would make them an oil player in the middle east and we could have a base in Iraq. Now listening to W, Rams and Chains and even Rudy with Fox News, you would think all the suicide bombers was from Iraq sent over by Sadam. Go look up where the suicide bombers was from. A country we are in bed with. That is why they must keep trying to sell the boggiemen are comming and terrorist are going to get you. To keep an open ended check book and for war where they want to go next. This will be where the American people will get very upset over congress if they do not stop the W, Chains and Rams war machine.

So what we have is a big mess. Out over 600 billion and loss of many lifes. A country wrecked that we have to build back under "private bid" companies. Iran is a much bigger threat than Sadan was or would have ever been. Now Iran is a threat to influence Iraq or take over Iraq and now they have become a major player in the middle east and the world. Thanks to W, Chains and Rams. The Republicans can thank the same ones for making Hillary your next president of the usa.

Janett_Reno · 11-12-2007, 10:52 PM

More vets supporting Hillary.

These other Vets are also standing by Hillary:

New National Military Veterans Co-Chairs are:

General Wesley Clark, Ret., Four Star General, Supreme Allied Commander, NATO

Lt. General Joseph Ballard, Ret., Three Star General, Chief of Engineers and Commander, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers

Lt. General Robert Gard, Ret., Three Star General, President Emeritus of the Monterey Institute for International Studies.

Lt. General Donald Kerrick, Ret., Three Star General, Deputy National Security Advisor, Assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

Lt. General Frederick Vollrath, Ret., Three Star General, Deputy Chief of Staff for Personnel, Headquarters Department of the Army

Major General Roger Blunt, Ret., Two Star General, U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Last Command: 97th Army Reserve Command (ARCOM), Ft. Meade
Chairman, President, & CEO of Blunt Enterprises, LLC

Major General Edward L. Correa Jr., Ret., Two Star General, Adjutant General of Hawaii

Major General Paul Eaton, Ret., Two Star General, Office of Security Cooperation in Iraq, Commanding General

Rear Admiral Connie Mariano, MD, Ret., Two Star Rear Admiral, Navy White House Physician for three Presidents

Major General Paul D. Monroe, Jr., Ret., Two Star General, Adjutant General California National Guard

Major General Robert Scales, Ret., Two Star General, President and CEO of Walden University, Commandant of the United States Army War College,

Rear Admiral Alan Steinman, M.D., Ret., Two Star Coast Guard Admiral, Past Director of Health and Safety of the Coast Guard

Rear Admiral David Stone, Ret., Two Star Rear Admiral, Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security for the Transportation Security Administration President & CEO, Alacrity Homeland Group

Brigadier General Michael Dunn, Ret., One Star General, Clinical leader of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center's Interoperability Project. Commanded the Walter Reed Health Care System in Washington, DC

Brigadier General Belisario Flores, Ret., Assistant Adjutant General, Texas Air National Guard, Brigadier General Evelyn "Pat" Foote, Ret., One Star General

Brigadier General Keith H. Kerr, Ret., One Star General, Commanding General, Northern Area Command, California National Guard

Brigadier General Virgil Richard, Ret., One Star General, Recipient of the Distinguished Service Medal

Brigadier General Preston Taylor, Ret., One Star General, Assistant Secretary for Veterans Employment and Training

Brigadier General Dr. Jack Yeager, Ret., One Star General, Assistant Adjutant General of West Virginia

Honorable Anthony Brown, Veteran, Maryland Lt. Governor, Past member of the Maryland House of Delegates, Served with distinction in Baghdad, Fallujah, Kirkuk and Basra, Iraq.

Honorable Harold Naughton, Massachusetts State House Representative, Veteran, US Army Reserves, JAG, 8 months in Multinational Force Iraq

Honorable Steven Hobbs, Washington State Senator, Veteran, Tours of duty in Iraq and Kosovo with the US Army and Army National Guard

Mr. Roscoe Brown, Veteran, Tuskegee Airman, WWII

Honorable Louis Caldera, Veteran, Secretary of the Army, President of University of New Mexico

Honorable Edward Chow, Jr., Veteran, Past Vice President of Vietnam Veterans of America, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Policy, U.S. Veterans Administration

Honorable Jimmy Dean, Veteran, Past National Commander of the American Legion

Honorable Ron Dellums, Mayor of Oakland, CA, Former Chair of the House Armed Services Committee

Honorable Herschel Gober, Veteran, Acting Secretary & Deputy Secretary, Veterans Affairs

Honorable Steven Honigman, Veteran, Navy Retired, Former Naval General Counsel (Iraq)

Mr. Thomas Keefe, Veteran, President of The Keefe Group, Nationally known Veterans Advocate

Honorable Robert Jones, Veteran, Deputy Secretary of Defense for POW/MIA Affairs

Honorable Robert Perreault, Director, Medical Administration, Department of Veterans Affairs

Joseph "Jake" Simmons IV, Veteran, Commander, White House Communications Agency

Honorable Todd Weiler, Veteran, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs

They Join Current National Co-Chairs:

U.S. Senator Daniel Inouye, Veteran, World War II Combat Veteran, Recipient: Medal of Honor

U.S. Congressman Charlie Rangel, Veteran, US Army, 1948-52

U.S. Congressman Joe Sestak, Veteran, Retired US Navy Admiral, Commanded Aircraft Carrier Battle Group, Afghanistan

U.S. Congressman Ed Towns, Veteran, US Army, 1956-58

U.S. Congressman Jose Serrano, Veteran, US Army, 1964-66

U.S. Congressman Maurice Hinchey, Veteran, US Navy 1956-59

Honorable Togo West, Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Secretary of the Army, North Carolina Native

Lt. General Claudia Kennedy, Ret., Three Star General, First Woman in the U.S. Army to Hold a Three Star Rank, Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence

General George Buskirk, Ret., Adjutant General, Indiana Army and Air National Guard,

Honorable Eleanor Glynn Kjellman, New Hampshire State House Representative, Veteran, US Air Force Officer, Son served in Iraq

Mr. Joe Wynn, Veteran, US Air Force, Viet Nam, Leader of the National Association of Black Veterans, President, Vets Group

Mr. Bill White, President, Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund, Nationally Known Veterans Advocate
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The list will grow and you will see who the real person and party is that stands up for right and fights wrong and doesn't sell out for money. Even the mess this adm has us in, Hillary will get the dollar from free falling, jobs back in the USA, illegal imagration solved and fixed and not just talked about and swept under the table like the neocons do, stop the big spending neocons like pouring money out of a boot and put money back in the United States. The neocons care less for children and health care and this will be addressed and our wonderful young men and women of the usa will again sign up for the military as the neocons is thinking of a draft to get more to join. Just more wish washy thinking by the neocons. Under Hillary we will be strong and our military will be stronger than ever and will be ready if it is needed and the days of going into a country because of "oil" will be done. Thank goodness the American people will and can vote the neocons out before much longer.
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More proud moments of the neocons..

Bush Administration cuts $1.5 billion from military family housing. The Bush Administration cut $1.5 billion for military family housing, despite Department of Defense statistics showing that in 83,000 barracks and 128,860 family housing units across the country are below standard. ("Nothing But Lip Service," Army Times, June 30, 2003; "House Appropriations Committee Approves $59.2 Million for Ft. Hood," U.S. Rep. Chet Edwards Press Release, June 17, 2003)

Bush Republicans support millionaires instead of military veterans. Bush allies in Congress stopped efforts to scale back the tax cut for the nation's millionaires by just five percent - a loss of just $4,780 for the year - in order to restore this funding for military family housing. ("The Tax Debate Nobody Hears About," Washington Post, June 17, 2003)

Bush Administration underfunded veterans' health care by $2 billion. The Bush Administration's 2004 budget underfunded veterans' health care by nearly $2 billion. ("Vets Health Low on Bush's Priority List," The Hill, September 17, 2003; "Support for Troops Questioned," Washington Post, June 17, 2003; U.S. Department of Veterans' Affairs, September 2002)

Bush Administration proposal would end health care benefits for 173,000 veterans. More than 173,000 veterans across the country would be cut off from health care because of Bush Administration proposed budget cuts and its plan requiring enrollment fees and higher out-of-pocket costs. ("Support for Troops Questioned," Washington Post, June 17, 2003)

Bush Administration budget cuts force more than 200,000 veterans to wait for health care. Over 200,000 United States veterans have to wait more than six months for a medical visit because of health care shortages. ("VA Health Care Funding Alert," Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States Press Release, January 31, 2003)

Bush Administration opposed plan to give National Guard and Reserve Members access to health insurance. Despite the war efforts of America's National Guard and Reserve Members, the Bush Administration announced in October 2003 its formal opposition to give the 1.2 million Guard and Reserve members the right to buy health care coverage through the Pentagon's health plan. One out of every five Guard members lacks health insurance. ("Bush Opposes Health Plan for National Guard," Gannett News Service, October 23, 2003)

Bush Administration cuts $172 million allotted for educating the children of military personnel. The Bush Administration's 2004 budget cut $172 million of impact aid funding. Impact aid funding assists school districts by making up for lost local tax revenue from tax-exempt property, such as military bases. These education cuts will especially affect school-age children of troops serving in Iraq who reside on military bases. ("Support for Troops Questioned," Washington Post, June 17, 2003)

Bush Administration tax cut denies military families increase in child tax credit. The families of 262,000 children of military personnel do not receive the child tax credit increase because the plan fails to cover taxpaying families with incomes between $10,500 and $26,625. According to The Washington Post, the House version of the Bush Administration plan "wouldn't help many of those serving in Iraq." One solider who will not benefit is Army Specialist Shoshana Johnson, the soldier and single mother who was wounded twice in the same convoy as Jessica Lynch. ("Ex-POW's Family Accuses Army of Double Standard on Benefit," Washington Post, October 24, 2003; "The New Senate Child Credit Legislation - What It Does and Does Not Do," Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, June 25, 2003; "Whose Child Is Left Behind," Children's Defense Fund, July 23, 2003)

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Cheney gets 5 deferments. W goes awol.

Date: 08/19/88 Houston Chronicle article by R. G. Ratliffe
When running for governor, George W. Bush portrayed himself to voters as a great fighter pilot. "Asked how he got into the Air National Guard, Bush said, 'They could sense I was going to be one of the great pilots of all time.'"

Among the questionable claims in Mr. Bush's autobiography is that he tried to volunteer for service in Vietnam "to relieve active-duty pilots." He did not volunteer for service in Vietnam; in fact, he failed to report for duty in his Air National Guard Unit and skipped off to Alabama to work on a political campaign.

In his book, Mr. Bush offers a lovely-sounding (but bald-faced) lie to describe his F-102 fighter pilot experience: "I continued flying with my unit for the next several years," he writes, but in fact he was suspended from flight duty in August 1972 and didn't fly at all for the last two years of his service. (He also didn't show up for duty.)

Further along in his autobiography, Mr. Bush says his military service "gave me respect for the chain of command." Well, that is an odd way to describe ignoring two direct orders to appear for duty. He was then assigned to a disciplinary unit in Denver, and he didn't show up for that either.

These big military neocons is a joke. They really did alot in the military. Now Rudy? Rudy who?

dude1394 · 11-12-2007, 11:17 PM

Did you get these from CBS? I forgot, when did clinton serve?

Janett_Reno · 11-12-2007, 11:32 PM

Clinton did not serve but Clinton has not got the war machine pounding thru the middle east either. When she is elected she will have to deal with it and trust me it is a big mess. It can lead to other things and let's hope it doesn't. It is the neocon adm that plays up what big time military men they are in Chains, W, and Rumsfield and they run off Powell. It is a falsehood of going around saying what war hero's this adm is when they ducked. See why military people do not trust them and their policy? See why they have thought about bringing the draft back?

The military duty doesn't stand up with the neocons. There own military career. I am not saying Hillary or Bill is big military people either but they are not going around pushing for the war machine to keep rolling either. I feel Hillary will have good military in her staff and she will listen and not be a bully. I also feel she won't just run from Iraq or places we are but see what needs to be done and do it. This adm never says we are sorry or they have never made a mistake. They try to make a wrong into a right and two or three wrongs doesn't make a right. We all make mistakes and we are in Iraq and let's take care of business and get the job done and move on. Beating the war drums talking how they are going to get Iran or Syria doesn't help matters.

It is many, many web sites on Bush and the military and also Cheney and it isn't good. The one i saw and was reading and posting from is here. http://www.awolbush.com/ It is many, many more.

Janett_Reno · 11-12-2007, 11:57 PM

They had to stop Hitler before he got to the middle east and took those oil fields over. His war machine was running out of fuel and many places they had to leave things behind because they couldn't get enough fuel. I have read and my uncle has told me many stories as he fought with Patton's 3rd army and drove a half track. He had three shot out from under him and survived them all and two of the times him and the guys hid(frostbite) out in fields untill they could get back with the others.

Hitler needed those oil fields to keep his war machine going and the allies stopped him from this. Many Germans was caught or even killed trying to steal or get fuel anywhere they could. They also was running some other type fuel or things to make them run and it was crude ways of making them run but they had to as the fuel was running out.

Something needs to be done to ease fuel cost or we need someway to find other sources to do what gas and oil does. This is one reason we will always be in that same bed with Saudi Arabia, no matter what they do or how they live(no matter if the pres is democrat or republican). We are important to them with our dollars and they are to us with their oil. We had sanctions on Sadam forever and but he was stubborn but now it is going to be interesting who runs those oil wells in Iraq now, where that money goes, who do they sell that oil to, will it be back door deals with barrells of oil going out, and will it be just the Iraqi army or them and us and anymore guarding those oil fields?

It is many that want's to get in on that oil. Not just for money and yes money is part of it but for war machines and building up an army. It cost alot to run everything in a military and i do know that. One day we might know the real reason why we went in and not just a bunch of bull. One day we might find out that someone hostile to us was going to take those oil wells and use them against us. I do not know but i hope one day we actually find out why because i feel it is an important issue.

I have concerns within the Iraqi military and gov they are having alot of coruption, selling small arms and etc and taking the money and running. Can they ever defend themself and can they hold off terrorist or warlords comming in to take the oil away from them. They are afraid Iraq will go like how Afganastan was with warlords or with Iran or Syria on the doorstep wanting to now come in.

I will admit i am proud at the moment that the killings and violence is down. Maybe things are getting better but we will have to see.

George Gervin · 11-13-2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Did you get these from CBS? I forgot, when did clinton serve?

Clinton never questioned the sincerity of those who put their a$$es on the line. This all started when the chickenhawks in office started to call out those who didn't blindy support their agenda. Once a Dem veteran in Congress questioned or critcized Dick or Bush they were accused of being weak on national security, wanting the terrorists to win, or better yet not understanding the nature of the battle... etc... These guys had the balls to question those who put their a$$es on the line while they sat back and deliberately avoided comabt service.. that is when the service issue really exploded..Clinton never called out member of Congress and questioned their loyalty or deisire to want to protect this country..

FishForLunch · 11-13-2007, 10:41 AM

So now Hillary is a expert on Military affairs is it, is that what you are trying to drill into our heads. If she knew better why did she support the Iraq resolution in congress or was she fooled by NEOCONS.

If the Clintons did not beat the drums of war why did they bomb the shit out of Serbia? I guess you approve of that sort of involvement in other countries affairs, as long as it is a liberal doing it.

So when Hillary cannot deliver on her promises onces she is elected will she blame Bush for all her difficulties. You know that sort of bullshit will only work for about a year then she will own the problem.

wmbwinn · 11-13-2007, 06:39 PM

I'm not going to debate foreign policy as there is plenty of debate out there already for anyone who wants to read it.

But, I'll address a few points that are poignant. I am not a big Bush fan myself although I tend to definitely be conservative in my views. Bush is probably the least cognitively capable president of my lifetime.

1)Hillary will not change anything in regards to the foreign policy and our war machine.
The fight will go on under her charge. She has said this many times and this is a reason that Edwards and Barrack attack her.

2)The price of oil remains high partly because the US Administration wants it to stay high. They will never admit this and I may be wrong in assuming a conspiracy. But, think about it. The US needs to become independent of foreign oil. How does the government try to get you to stop smoking? It raises the tax on cigs. How does the government get states to fall into line with the views of the federal government? It withholds funding of programs that the states needs until the states step into line. You can always find the priorities of our system by looking at the money.
So, think about it. How are we ever going to become independent of foreign oil? The answer is that we will never become independent of Saudi oil if the price is 20-40 dollars per barrel which is what the price was always in the past 20 years other than the years of this administration. The price of oil started climbing before the Iraq war. The only way for the US to become independent of foreign oil is to tackle various strategies such as:

a)hydrogen power- a very expensive and time consuming process of producing hydrogen plants everywhere you see current gas stations. Hydrogen cannot be carried on trains, planes, or automobiles (trucks) because it is too explosive and dangerous. Hydrogen has to be produced at the gas station and then put directly into your vehicle. The vehicles has to be designed and mass produced to run on hydrogen (another expensive process that will take time).

There is no way that hydrogen power will be invested in and be developed unless the price of oil is going to stay very high for a very long time. Hydrogen power will not be economically feasible unless the price of oil stays high for a very long time. After the hydrogen stations and cars are made, then the hydrogen fuel system will be very cheap, actually. The cost to you as a consumer will be very low and you will love it.

b)Ethanol, biofuels. The energy cost to make biofuels is a lot higher than the energy available in the biofuel. In other words, the coal is burned to make electricity and the electricity is used to produce ethanol or other biofuels out of plant life. The biofuel that is available provides less energy than what was used to make the biofuel. This strategy is attractive because the plant life is a renewable source of energy. But, coal is not. This strategy is very popular where I live (midwest farm land) because the corn will never again be oversupplied. The value of corn will stay high. The farmer will do well. This strategy only works if the biofuel produced is available cheaper than the equal volume of gasoline. If a gallon of ethanol is valued at 3 dollars and the gallon of gasoline is 3.50 dollars, then ethanol works in the economy. If a gallon of ethanol ever costs more than a gallon of gasoline, then you mess this option up and hurt the farmer all over again. This only works with expensive gas which is what you get with expensive oil.

c)exploration of other sources of oil: there is more oil in the central plains (covered in ice alot of it) of Canada north of North Dakota than there is in the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST. But, the oil there is mixed with a thick wax. The oil in Canada's central plains does not sink into reservoirs. It remains suspended in the sand/dirt. You get the oil there by using a tractor to scoop up the dirt and running the dirt through a processing plant to extract the waxy oil. You then process the waxy oil to get the oil. The cost of getting this oil and refining this oil is a lot higher than the process in Saudi Arabia/Middle East. So, this is an option only if the final gallon/barrel of oil is available at a competitive price to what is available from the Middle East. If the price of a barrel of oil falls, then the plans to go after Canada's oil is over. Nervous investors who want to go after this oil want reassurance that the price of oil will stay high.

Congress has repeatedly blocked efforts to look for other sources of oil near our homeland for environmental reasons. This is a problem as well if we want to divorce ourselves from the oil of the Middle East.

d)Nuclear energy: the US could divorce itself of much of its energy needs if the US did what Europe has done- take the logical step and expand our nuclear capability. France is an example of a country that relies on nuclear energy. Nuclear energy will actually go a long way to divorcing our problem with imported oil. But, again, Congress has blocked this for environmental and fear problems (Chernobyl). Again, the price of building new reactors and developing a greater nuclear capacity is something that demands the price of oil stay high in order to support the investment.

So, in summary, it is my opinion that the price of oil is exactly where the US wants the price of oil to be. I suspect that the price of oil is "fixed" by our own government. Do you think it is a coincidence that suddenly even Ford and Chevy are building hybrids? It used to be just the Japanese importers. The handwriting is on the wall. The entire US economy is going to have to suffer (and this means the poorest suffer the most and, yes, there will be some elements of a depression for the lowest economic classes and the low middle class) in order for the US to go through another transition in our economy. We suffered this during the industrial revolution. We have suffered this pattern many times in our past. We will suffer it again, survive it again, and flourish later as a result. Janet is right- get out of debt any way you can and diminish your own suffering.

Notice that Hillary and the other Dems are NOT TALKING ABOUT how they expect to lower the cost of a gallon of gasoline at the pump for you. They know that this is going to continue and that is HAS TO CONTINUE.

3)As to the VA issues, the VA has been underfunded forever. It was underfunded during Clinton's days as well. The VA is a system that does a lot of good. But, it is also a system that wastes a lot of money in its beauracy and management. Uncle Sam knows this. Uncle Sam is trying to transform the military healthcare system including the systems for active duty soldiers, not just the VA.

Hillary may well provide more funding. It is an easy homerun in politics. But, I can guarantee that the general pattern of trying to make the VA work better with less waste is not going to change.

4)As to the generals and other personnel attacking Bush. Heck, I am disgusted with Bush's wartime failures as much as anyone.
But, here are his successes:
1)no further attacks on American Soil
2)Taliban out (still fighting but fighting in Afghanistan instead of America or Europe), Bin Laden out (hiding). The fight is in Pakistan, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The fight is on THEIR soil, not ours.
3)Libya folded and abandoned its nuclear program
4)backdoor nuclear technology out of Pakistan destroyed. This was how N. Korea succeeded and we suspect that Iran received knowledge from there as well. I hope we don't have to fight in Pakistan but Pakistan is on the verge of collapse and they are nuclear capable with nuclear bombs that have to be contained if all hell breaks loose there. Pakistan nukes exploding in Iraq and Afghanistan or elsewhere can't happen. I don't view it as an option to ignore the world around us when the world around us contains nukes that can get in the hands of Bin Laden.
5)N. Korea is folding to diplomatic pressure. If we have to smash them militarily, we will. But, we have succeeded there. Clinton's treaty was a joke and the nuclear machine continued its development in N. Korea.
6)China and Russia are not backing N. Korea in this arguement. That is a homerun in foreign policy...
7)Germany and France elected administrations more amenable to the US because the people of those nations want their countries to take a stand with us against terrorism. Sure, there are plenty of people that oppose our policies in France and Germany, but their people elected new leaders that agreed with us...
8)Israel hasn't had to press an attack against Syria or fly bombs to Iran. As to the Middle East, it is better if US/UN/NATO forces fight than that Israel fights. The entire Middle East hates Israel and there are no allies to Israel there. Israel has to stay quiet. The fight in Lebanon was relatively brief and the UN/NATO influences caused Israel to retreat.
I'm not stupid. I know that the Israel/Palestinian issue is a continued mess. Hillary is not going to fix that either and no president of the US is going to fix that.

Having said all of that, Bush is an idiot and Rumsfield made a lot of mistakes. I agree with the generals that the war was fought and planned very badly. But, I remind you that Hillary is going to continue this fight...

The US needs a smart president that will continue military action as I am afraid that we have no other good option. We may have to fight in Iran and Pakistan and N. Korea. Hopefully, the presidents will succeed in diplomacy and spare the military option. The president's main value in all of this is in diplomacy. Bush is not diplomatic and he cannot speak. We need a president who can speak and handle diplomacy. We need a stronger alliance with Russia to help with Iran, Pakistan, and N. Korea. Life would be a lot easier if the Russians were helping us over there...

Janett_Reno · 11-13-2007, 11:27 PM

I have heard from others, that under Hillary, things will probably not change about war or the middle east but i know who backs Rudy and it is the same people that put Bush in. Big money, big oil and special interest groups and certain ones with pockets full of money. These same ones are backing Rudy and this is the reason Fred can't make any head wave against Rudy. He came in to late and he lost out on this big money. Rudy has buddied up to Barbour, Bush, Chains and Rams and all this adm. I know he will carry out what has been going on the last 8 years. Some say that if you thought Bush was bad, wait untill Rudy gets in and this is scarry.

Some may say, well isn't Hillary getting this special interest money? Yes she is but not by big oil. I am ready for a change and remember i am one that thought Bill was a good president. Foreign policy, jobs, people living comfortable, our country not a slave to China and a huge surplus of money and not run away spending. These Republicans with run away spending is awful. I believe in us. I believe in our people, poor, middle class and rich. Our roads, infrastracture, and to invest in our people, our country and not throwing money at bad decisions. This is where Hillary will bring the money and jobs back home, i feel. Fix alot what is wrong. I would also vote for Obama or Edwards.

I do feel we need to so much to get away from oil. This will piss off big oil big time and piss off some big money men. I am ready for change and i know some will say Hillary is an extension of Bill but i liked how money flowed and how we was liked and respected when he held office. We are hated now and the bad thing is this adm doesn't care if we are liked or hated. I feel Hillary, Obama or Edwards will give us a better direction in war or in peace than this adm or Rudy. I am also ready to invest in the USA and our people.

I also agree with George Gervin. I agree wmbwinn that we need other countries that have influence over Iran, NK and others that we can talk to, they can talk to and calm the situation before war. I am speaking about Iran more so. This i do not understand in this adm, why they do not care if we are hated or liked and why they won't reach out and make friends that can help us with countries like Iran to avoid something even worse. On the Republicans i like the two you like in Huckabee or Romney the best or even Ron Paul but this time around i must be honest and say i am ready for change and will vote Democrat, no matter if it is Hillary, Obama or Edwards. I feel it will be Hillary and Rudy in the end.

dude1394 · 11-14-2007, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Gervin

Clinton never questioned the sincerity of those who put their a$$es on the line. This all started when the chickenhawks in office started to call out those who didn't blindy support their agenda. Once a Dem veteran in Congress questioned or critcized Dick or Bush they were accused of being weak on national security, wanting the terrorists to win, or better yet not understanding the nature of the battle... etc... These guys had the balls to question those who put their a$$es on the line while they sat back and deliberately avoided comabt service.. that is when the service issue really exploded..Clinton never called out member of Congress and questioned their loyalty or deisire to want to protect this country..

No he (and hillary) just hold them in contempt. Hey I didn't bring it up, here was the quote..

Quote:

Cheney gets 5 deferments. W goes awol.
.

Someone wants to rag on Dubya who DID serve when they are touting the Clintons who were protesting AGAINST the military then they need to have tougher skin.

We already know what lengths CBS will go to to lie about dubya, already proven that they will accept forged papers to try and sway an election.

mcsluggo · 11-14-2007, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

We already know what lengths CBS will go to to lie about dubya, already proven that they will accept forged papers to try and sway an election.

I am sorry, but load of farking tiresome garbage. The gop-strategist response to that cbs story has led to an unbelievable i-will-voluntarily-keep-my-head-in-a-hole response by the american public. Fine, drop the Killian documents, as they should be -- at BEST they are of questionable authenticity, and likely they are forgeries. BUT THEY WERE RELATIVELY UNIMPORTANT SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION.

Raise your hand, if you honestly don't believe that the bush family used connections to get into the national guard? (that was what the forged Killian papers said.... along with about 6 OTHER sources)

<<<IS this quote from W real or not? "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." (I don't know if it is true...if it is, it sounds pretty damning) >>>

EVERYONE at the time knew that the guard was a way to avoid going over to Vietnam. Everyone. It is NOT the case anymore, but it WAS the case then, and everyone knew it. Period. Bush vaulted to the front of the line for the texas guard (along with many other prominant families' sons, both dem and rep, and a bunch of Dallas Cowboys)

If you don't think it was a bid deal that strings were puled to get Bush into the guard, and that there are serious questions about his eventual exit from the guard... fine. If you do think it was a big deal...fine. but the i'm-gonna-cover-my-ears-and-say-bla-bla-bla-I-dont-hear-you because Dan Rather said it is tiresome. I think I'll just start answering "Bush lied and people died" to every post... it sure is easier.

Janett_Reno · 11-14-2007, 06:12 PM

It's more about his military career here.

Bush Jr.'s Skeleton Closet

http://www.realchange.org/bushjr.htm

dude1394 · 11-14-2007, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

I am sorry, but load of farking tiresome garbage. The gop-strategist response to that cbs story has led to an unbelievable i-will-voluntarily-keep-my-head-in-a-hole response by the american public. Fine, drop the Killian documents, as they should be -- at BEST they are of questionable authenticity, and likely they are forgeries. BUT THEY WERE RELATIVELY UNIMPORTANT SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION.

Bull crapola. the whole story was built on those documents. So I don't think they are "relatively unimportant" and they sure are not of "questionable authenticity".. They are FORGERIES.

Quote:

Raise your hand, if you honestly don't believe that the bush family used connections to get into the national guard? (that was what the forged Killian papers said.... along with about 6 OTHER sources)

Beats me...prove it.

Quote:

<<<IS this quote from W real or not? "I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." (I don't know if it is true...if it is, it sounds pretty damning) >>>

Sounds like you made it up to me. Where's the link?

Quote:

EVERYONE at the time knew that the guard was a way to avoid going over to Vietnam. Everyone. It is NOT the case anymore, but it WAS the case then, and everyone knew it. Period. Bush vaulted to the front of the line for the texas guard (along with many other prominant families' sons, both dem and rep, and a bunch of Dallas Cowboys).

If you don't think it was a bid deal that strings were puled to get Bush into the guard, and that there are serious questions about his eventual exit from the guard... fine. If you do think it was a big deal...fine. but the i'm-gonna-cover-my-ears-and-say-bla-bla-bla-I-dont-hear-you because Dan Rather said it is tiresome. I think I'll just start answering "Bush lied and people died" to every post... it sure is easier.

You want to believe a story completely built on hearsay and FORGED DOCUMENTS then go ahead. You and Michael "the maggot" Moore go right ahead. You are going to anyway.

But when the hearsay starts against whomever it is that you believe to be an honorable person, don't be bitching about it okay.

Janett_Reno · 11-14-2007, 09:06 PM

The forum rules dude says no calling people names and no cussing. Play within the rules. Can you defend the neocons without cussing people, without calling other names and answering a question with a question. Sounds like you have been to Karl Rove school with a college degree in Fox News.

dude1394 · 11-14-2007, 09:48 PM

I'm confused is it "bitch" that is the curse word? If so sorry..

Let me change it to "gripe incessantly without reason". How's that?

Or are you upset that I called you hero Michael a maggot? This one I won't apologise for as he is a maggot.

Just want to get my terms straight here.

wmbwinn · 11-14-2007, 09:57 PM

Come on, Janet and Dude. Shake hands and get back to facts and theories and ideas. I thought I had a pretty decent post above and no one is countering it or applauding it or even acting like it existed.

Does that mean I'm right or does that mean I am so wrong that you don't even know where to start?

Janett_Reno · 11-14-2007, 11:37 PM

Ok wm it was a good post and i will comment on it.

1)Hillary will not change anything in regards to the foreign policy and our war machine.
The fight will go on under her charge. She has said this many times and this is a reason that Edwards and Barrack attack her.

Hillary like Bill will talk first and not march the war machine thru Iran and Syria like Cheney and Bush wants to. Some generals have been fired and let go for differ resons when they spoke up about this war. The American people has rose up is the only reason W and Cheney has not attacked Iran. imo, W and Cheney will not get the chance to attack Iran because of the American people, other countries and both Republicans and Democrats will make it hard on them. Bush says he won't talk to terrorist countries like Syria and Iran and no talking to them. He has a shoot first policy and ask questions later. The real problem wm in the middle east was not Iraq. This was a joke. The problems was Iran, somewhat Syria and believe it or not Pakistan. Afganastan was an outlaw country and W and the boys did the right thing going in here after Laden.

Rudy, Fred, Hillary, Obama, Edwards, McCain and the rest of them have to e tough on terror, tough on war and they will ring this message because like some have stated Rove and the boys will say the Democrats are not tough on terror, on war, or not Christians and start with all the one liners that dude uses. These are all Rove one liners and you can see in the above post how ruff and fierce of fighters W and Cheney was in their great military career. I am not taking up for Bill or Hillary either as they wasn't big military people either. Hillary like Bill won't shoot first and ask questions later and she won't have her adm or people in her adm make up fibs to just to be able to go into Iran. Obama has said he will talk to everyone involved before war. Hillary will have a good military adm and minds in her adm and maybe even as her vice president and she, nor Bill or a bully like this adm. Hillary has stood tough because they will try to attack her that she is a woman and she is weak. Her foreign policy can not be any worse than this adm as i feel this has been some of the worst in history of our country. Compare Bill's with W's and even you being a conservative i feel you will be fair on grading both.

2)The price of oil remains high partly because the US Administration wants it to stay high. They will never admit this and I may be wrong in assuming a conspiracy. But, think about it. The US needs to become independent of foreign oil. How does the government try to get you to stop smoking? It raises the tax on cigs. How does the government get states to fall into line with the views of the federal government? It withholds funding of programs that the states needs until the states step into line. You can always find the priorities of our system by looking at the money.
So, think about it. How are we ever going to become independent of foreign oil? The answer is that we will never become independent of Saudi oil if the price is 20-40 dollars per barrel which is what the price was always in the past 20 years other than the years of this administration. The price of oil started climbing before the Iraq war. The only way for the US to become independent of foreign oil is to tackle various strategies such as:

Look who is running the country now and Daddy bush wanted his son W to do good in oil and they did all they could for him and on a silver spoon and everthing he touched he pissed it away or made a huge mess out of it. W and Neil could never keep out of trouble and one reason Jeb has done well is Neil gave Jeb alot of the money out of the savings and loans he wrecked and Daddy bush begged for his sons mercy and not to put him in the pen. It is a long story and you just need to read about Neil. He helped Jeb get a foot hold on FL and Jeb started buying up property in FL with Neils money or dirty money and Jeb has made it, so far. They bailed W out with Harken oil and then he made his money off a baseball team and when he sold to a big oil man he could only help people around him and himself if he got into politics and let people control him on what they wanted. Alot and most of W's and Chains life is revolved around oil. Haliburton comes to mind but it is many more.

It is a reason why GM recalled all the elct cars and Amoco or another big oil company bought the patent on the battery that pushed the elct car to do good and be a sucess in Cali but it started to take money out of the hands of big oil and they bought that patent of that batter from Gm and said no one was to use that high powered battery and bascially told GM to recall those elect cars in the 90's. They did and crushed them. Many was very mad over this and after this GM comes out with a Hummer that is terrible on gas. The Chinese again and Japan is going to dominant us on elect cars and big oil won't be able to force them from comming over and again it is going to hurt GM and Ford and will Ford even be able to stay in business or will China buy them out?

Clinton put in something called the clean air act and they started finning companies polluting the water ways, smoke stacks, coal, oil and gas and this pissed big oil off. When W got in, with Rudy's firm and Hailey Barbour and Cheney was a part of this, they was able to gut the clean air act. They do not want any limitations on air, water, gas and oil. Why do you think dude along with the neocons deny global warming? That it is a myth. It is because they do not want big oil, gas, coal, or our air clean and to keep running the way it is and let the fat cats get fatter. They stopped Rudy from building big power plants in NY to pollute more water and air in ny and it was a Republican that was very vocal and against him. I think his name was Pataki but i am not sure but it was Republicans and Democrats that got it stopped.

It is reasons why we have not broke away from big oil because big oil controls you and i and controls this adm. The sad thing is big oil has even controlled both parties but not as bad as the neocons. We tolerate Saudi because we are in bed with them. They scratch our back and we scrath theres. We need gov funding to get away from big oil to Ford, Chevy, to solar, and like Brasil did in the 80's or 90's and they now run their vehicles on an alternative source. It cost alot to do this and the gov must fund it and back it but if big oil runs you, how can you?

I feel wm people are going to start buying Chinesse and Japan elect cars, more solar and differ ways to create energy from solar to wind mills and etc and individuals and towns will do this and it will finally start to sweep around the country here. Then oil prices will come down, wanting us to come back. When Japan was running r&d and doing alot on developing elect cars in the 80's and 90's and when the usa said no to elect cars they shut down. It looked dead and guess who bought all those plans, factories and parts and know how? The Chinesse. Now the Chinesse will soon start flooding the usa with elct cars.

It is a fight now wanting them not to by big business here and even big oil. I don't think they can stop it this time. The limitations of elect cars has broke the old mold and a company in Austin several months ago announced they have e break thru and said they would produce an elect car before the end of this year. Will they? They said it would be a joint venture with China or in a China body car. They claim it can fully charge in 30 mins and can go 200 or 300 miles before a charge and run very fast. The car industry, people familar with elec and gas said bull, this is impossible and they can't do it. So this is comming.

This adm is for big oil and if you and i was smart we would have bought oil futures and loaded up on Haliburton stock. From now on, since they have run oil up, $2.50 or $3.00 a gallon will sound cheap or they want you to think that. Comparred to other countries we have had it cheap. They are making hand over fist full of money now. I know a woman that was getting $25.00 a month in the 80's for her part in a very small oil well. It is super small. It is in Ok and was found by drilling. It is split between her family members maybe 10 or 15 ways. It is a terrible small pice of land and nothing will grow but oil was found. When oil was $75.00 a barrell she was getting 12 grand a month. I think when taxess taken out just over 9 grand a month. So some have no complaints over oil but not all of us own an oil well. That operation was so small they did not even guard it and people would drive up steal barrels of oil and drive off but now they have guards and is fenced in.

These politicians talk a good game, all of them and i heard Hillary talking of hirring workers all across the usa putting in solar panels in our big businesses and building like Japan has to create jobs and reduce on elect and gas but will any of these politicians follow thru? So far none have because it is not popular where big money comes from, big oil. Hillary will clean the air up and the clean air law will probably go back in. Another reason big oil must fight Hillary and the Democrats. You and i wm and the people have to take ourself off big oil. I am as bad as anyone and have not done anything about it as far as doing things to the house and etc.

I will keep one gas machine in a vehicle but if my country will not build me an elect car the they will force me and others to go ahead and support japan and China more by buying their elec cars. I know China and India have alot of people and this is another reason and the usa uses so much, plus now the war machine sucks alot of oil also and alot is being used. I am sorry to say, i don't think we will ever see 2.00 a gallon gas again unless we buy elect cras and the gas companies say wait just a minute and come back to us, we want to give you bargains.

MavsX · 11-14-2007, 11:37 PM

i really hate this area of dallas-mavs.com

wmbwinn · 11-14-2007, 11:48 PM

All right, so far you have agreed with my first two points:
1)Hillary will continue to fight. I agree she will be a better diplomat and speaker. But, the wars will continue
2)The high price of oil is causing alternative plans to unfold including electric vehicles. I said the same thing.
The price of oil is not going to come down. The US does not want the price to come down. The US wants to develop alternatives to divorce itself from oil importation as much as possible. The US wants to see our economy explode with fuel and energy alternatives. It will be an eventual huge boon to our economy.

In the short term, poor Americans will keep suffering. And, that won't change with Hillary. You might get a larger child credit on your taxes and you might get some other cute financial treats. But, nothing important is going to change.

So, you have confirmed by two statements so far.

I said several times that I did not respect George W. and viewed him as weak minded and a very poor diplomat and speaker. So, spending a lot of time vilifying George W. does not bother me.

dude1394 · 11-15-2007, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MavsX

i really hate this area of dallas-mavs.com

I really hate posts that say they hate the area they are posting in.

Janett_Reno · 11-15-2007, 12:22 AM

a)hydrogen power- a very expensive and time consuming process of producing hydrogen plants everywhere you see current gas stations. Hydrogen cannot be carried on trains, planes, or automobiles (trucks) because it is too explosive and dangerous. Hydrogen has to be produced at the gas station and then put directly into your vehicle. The vehicles has to be designed and mass produced to run on hydrogen (another expensive process that will take time).

There is no way that hydrogen power will be invested in and be developed unless the price of oil is going to stay very high for a very long time. Hydrogen power will not be economically feasible unless the price of oil stays high for a very long time. After the hydrogen stations and cars are made, then the hydrogen fuel system will be very cheap, actually. The cost to you as a consumer will be very low and you will love it.

I doubt we go this way but i have seen a few towns in northern Europe have this and i forget the country and maybe it is a town in Norway or Finland or i am not sure but they are doing well with it but it is much more confined in one smaller area. The usa is very big and we would have to go all out and i doubt we would.

b)Ethanol, biofuels. The energy cost to make biofuels is a lot higher than the energy available in the biofuel. In other words, the coal is burned to make electricity and the electricity is used to produce ethanol or other biofuels out of plant life. The biofuel that is available provides less energy than what was used to make the biofuel. This strategy is attractive because the plant life is a renewable source of energy. But, coal is not. This strategy is very popular where I live (midwest farm land) because the corn will never again be oversupplied. The value of corn will stay high. The farmer will do well. This strategy only works if the biofuel produced is available cheaper than the equal volume of gasoline. If a gallon of ethanol is valued at 3 dollars and the gallon of gasoline is 3.50 dollars, then ethanol works in the economy. If a gallon of ethanol ever costs more than a gallon of gasoline, then you mess this option up and hurt the farmer all over again. This only works with expensive gas which is what you get with expensive oil.

This would atleast help our farmers and middle class America and put jobs back in the usa and not just here for a select few and the middle east. I have heard good things of this method. Maybe this is what Brasil does but i am not sure.

c)exploration of other sources of oil: there is more oil in the central plains (covered in ice alot of it) of Canada north of North Dakota than there is in the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST. But, the oil there is mixed with a thick wax. The oil in Canada's central plains does not sink into reservoirs. It remains suspended in the sand/dirt. You get the oil there by using a tractor to scoop up the dirt and running the dirt through a processing plant to extract the waxy oil. You then process the waxy oil to get the oil. The cost of getting this oil and refining this oil is a lot higher than the process in Saudi Arabia/Middle East. So, this is an option only if the final gallon/barrel of oil is available at a competitive price to what is available from the Middle East. If the price of a barrel of oil falls, then the plans to go after Canada's oil is over. Nervous investors who want to go after this oil want reassurance that the price of oil will stay high.

Congress has repeatedly blocked efforts to look for other sources of oil near our homeland for environmental reasons. This is a problem as well if we want to divorce ourselves from the oil of the Middle East.

W has wanted drilling in Alaska and alot become upset about the animals and a game preserve. Republicans in CO got upset at this adm wanting to drill in Co and maybe they even mentioned FL but they keep running into brick walls. I am not good on knowing does it destroy the land or wildlife and if not and preserve everything around where you drill, why not? I need to learn more about this. Maybe W and this adm has good ideas on drilling here in our usa but i know they run into, you are going to destroy the land. I would rather have oil here, than us be slaves to Saudi and have to stay in bed with them. Now when i say this, Democrats and Republicans both are in bed with Saudi and we over look anything bad from that country and it is both parties fault.

d)Nuclear energy

I feel we need to look into this wm. I feel it is ways to try to keep our air clean or have restrictions on the companies and not dump stuff in our water ways and i do feel this is a good idea. The politicians want to tell us they are going to try to help us go green and get away from big oil but you are right, alot of times and mostly they don't tell us how.

Va and Heath Care

We need to address this as it won't go away and i am not a good one to say how we should help and solve it but it needs to be addressed and big time.

8)Israel hasn't had to press an attack against Syria or fly bombs to Iran. As to the Middle East, it is better if US/UN/NATO forces fight than that Israel fights. The entire Middle East hates Israel and there are no allies to Israel there. Israel has to stay quiet. The fight in Lebanon was relatively brief and the UN/NATO influences caused Israel to retreat.
I'm not stupid. I know that the Israel/Palestinian issue is a continued mess. Hillary is not going to fix that either and no president of the US is going to fix that.

We need nato and others to help us in the middle east and we must not be a bully and say if you do not do it our way, then we might just attack you as it makes Europeans hate us. You are right, if Israel attacks or does anything it stirs up a hornets nest and even them on the defensive it seems to. The bible tells us that area will be that way untill the end of times. They live, fight and die over a drop of a hat on religion and that middle eastern land. UK was proud to get out and turn that land over to Israel for several reasons. I feel other middle east countries must talk to Syria, Iran and others and say you must think of Israel as a country and a human being abd this is where the mess starts. They claim Israel does bad to them and Israel says they do bad to Israel and it stays in turmoil. Israel is going to defend itself and everyone should. It is a big hot bed wm but i do not feel we can solve it because it is about land and religion. The best we can do is try to be peace makers for periods of time but out breaks will always happen. I know of no solution for the middle east because they must want to get along. No president will solve it but they can help matters in short periods of times.

Bush is not diplomatic and he cannot speak. We need a president who can speak and handle diplomacy. We need a stronger alliance with Russia to help with Iran, Pakistan, and N. Korea. Life would be a lot easier if the Russians were helping us over there

I totally agree and you know what, W can be a likeable guy and i really feel he is underneath that hard shell. I know he can't speak and says the wrong things and it makes him come across as dumb or a bully and imo he has had many chances to do good and try what you have said above but it is his way or the highway and this is where Europe, Middle East and alot of places thinks you and i wm are bullies and we are mean. I think maybe someone has told him you must stand tough and firm and be mean or pretend to and it doesn't come off good. I am proud and i do give credit that we have not been attacked again.

Your post was very good. I do not think Romney, Huckabee, Paul, Obama, Edwards and even Hillary will follow down this same path and be a bully and stuck up. They will all be much better than what we have now. I feel Rudy and Fred will be another puppet on a string. Rudy can think and can talk ok but Fred is like W and just doesn't talk and seems to not think. I just feel Rudy will be controlled.

The middle east is a hot bed wm and this is why Europe and many do not want any part of it. I do not think going into Iraq was good and we lost people, alot of money, raised oil prices, and now Iraq could go to whom ever is strongest and has the most influence around them. I also agree that Sadam played out like a crazy man and if he was threatned, he would always say we will bomb Israel. He brought it on himself but the middle east, europe and many should have helped this problem and not just us. He told one reason he was not overthrown in hiw own country was he would plant moles and pretend that they wanted to overthrow Sadam and ask are you with me? Want to? When these people showed interest or said they was with that plan, then they would be killed. He was brutal and bad. I just do not know how Iraq can hold if they can not unite and have influence around them come in and take over. That is where Iraq could be worse in the future but let's hope not.

Janett_Reno · 11-15-2007, 12:52 AM

I can't vote for a Republican wm after the last 8 years. I won't stoop that low. I do not like how this adm has done. You did mention some good things he has done but i feel the bad out weighs the good. Rudy is an extension of W. Fred is just to old and seems not to think. He hardly talks. As a human being, i do not agree with Rudy's lifestyle and i won't go into that because we know the knocks on him.

Romney is more of a man and stands on his beliefs. I feel Huckabee would also and even Paul but i don't think they will be elected. These three guys can't be bought off as much i feel and would try to do right in, i feel. As an American and not as a Republican.

I feel Obama has very good things comming his way and going to be a force in politics along time. I do like him and i like Edwards. I liked Bill Clinton as a president and what he did for the American people. I do not think he was a bully but stood strong when he had to. He was wrong in the Monica deal but he knew economics, foreign policy, and he didn't send us to run away debt levels. I do not believe in spending like this adm has done and wants to keep doing. I wasn't raised that way and i can't change. I do not believe in getting as many credit cards and charging them all to the max because bad things happen.

I do not believe in our country run this way. Alot of people are going to lose their homes. Many can't aford to live with what they bring home and struggling to get by. I believe in a surplus of money like Bill had us in and if your country lives out of debt and within their means better things happens to them and they can live the American dream and even become rich. If a recession hits us or a depression more bad will happen. I want jobs brought back home, every American having the chance of success. I also do not believe in living off welfare or food stamps forever but in certain situations those things are good for people but our gov must take care of our people and our system and look into these things that are being abused and correct them. Alot of our programs are being abused.

I do not like what this adm is trying to teach us as i feel it is the wrong principle. I believe in our freedom and our country and we did right going after Laden but for the life of me i do not understand why we went into Iraq and just go off on wrong paths under this adm. I feel my country has been hijacked by an adm that went into do as they wanted.

I do feel Hillary will be a better diplomat and she will try to balance a budget and get this out of control spending under control and not pretend it is play money. I do not like being a slave to China and i want our jobs back and our freedoms back and our people thinking again and us the leader in industry again. This is why i won't vote Republican next election and i think Hillary is going to do good as a president. I would feel much safer if it was Huckabee, Paul, Romney against Obama, Edwards or Hillary but i see it being Hillary against Rudy.

mcsluggo · 11-15-2007, 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Bull crapola. the whole story was built on those documents. So I don't think they are "relatively unimportant" and they sure are not of "questionable authenticity".. They are FORGERIES.

Beats me...prove it.

Sounds like you made it up to me. Where's the link?

You want to believe a story completely built on hearsay and FORGED DOCUMENTS then go ahead. You and Michael "the maggot" Moore go right ahead. You are going to anyway.

But when the hearsay starts against whomever it is that you believe to be an honorable person, don't be bitching about it okay.

Bush lied and people died.

dude1394 · 11-15-2007, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsluggo

Bush lied and people died.

Wow...deep. Actually didn't lie either by the way.

Now your democrat brethren may have lied when they voted to invade iraq, you know they lied because they really don't have the stones for it but were afraid that they might lose a vote or two.

Janett_Reno · 11-15-2007, 02:04 PM

wm here is a couple articles on new cars and one by Honda that runs on hydrogen for the usa next year, for lrase and for Cali only. Chevy did this on an ev car in the 80's or 90's for only Cali by lease and then Chevy recalled them and the public was furious. The public clamed they was bought out by big oil but it was a few other theories also why they recalled them. It was a big stink because they did love those ev cars. A good film to buy or rent and watch is called, "who killed the electric car".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071115...aKaSbLymzQOrgF

Hydrogen-powered Honda to debut in California next year

Honda will introduce a state-of-the-art hydrogen-powered car in the United States next year, offering a glimpse of the next generation of environmentally friendly vehicles, officials said Wednesday.

Speaking at the LA Auto Show, the Japanese auto giant said they planned to offer the zero-emissions FCX Clarity to customers on a limited long-term lease basis for a cost of around 600 dollars a month.

The expense of fuel cell technology means Honda is still a long way from putting the car into mass production, but its debut represented the "significant progress" in developing the cars for real world use.

"The FCX Clarity is a shining symbol of the progress we've made with fuel cell vehicles and of our belief in the promise of this technology," said American Honda chief executive Tetsuo Iwamura.

"We are working to overcome obstacles to the mass-market potential of zero emissions hydrogen fuel cell automobiles," Iwamura added.

The Clarity's only emission is water, Honda said.

Honda did not reveal the number of cars which will be made available via the lease program or actual cost of each unit.

------------------------------------------------

Cadillac shows its big hybrid Escalade SUV during a two-day media preview of the Los Angeles Auto Show, first major North American car show of the season, on 14 November 2007 in Los Angeles, California.

Go here and on the left click on the LA auto show video and starting next year Ford, GM and all the foreign car companies are going to really roll off hybrid cars for us. I think this is good.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071115...lesenvironment

wmbwinn · 11-15-2007, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janett_Reno

I can't vote for a Republican wm after the last 8 years. I won't stoop that low. I do not like how this adm has done. You did mention some good things he has done but i feel the bad out weighs the good. Rudy is an extension of W. Fred is just to old and seems not to think. He hardly talks. As a human being, i do not agree with Rudy's lifestyle and i won't go into that because we know the knocks on him.

Romney is more of a man and stands on his beliefs. I feel Huckabee would also and even Paul but i don't think they will be elected. These three guys can't be bought off as much i feel and would try to do right in, i feel. As an American and not as a Republican.

I feel Obama has very good things comming his way and going to be a force in politics along time. I do like him and i like Edwards. I liked Bill Clinton as a president and what he did for the American people. I do not think he was a bully but stood strong when he had to. He was wrong in the Monica deal but he knew economics, foreign policy, and he didn't send us to run away debt levels. I do not believe in spending like this adm has done and wants to keep doing. I wasn't raised that way and i can't change. I do not believe in getting as many credit cards and charging them all to the max because bad things happen.

I do not believe in our country run this way. Alot of people are going to lose their homes. Many can't aford to live with what they bring home and struggling to get by. I believe in a surplus of money like Bill had us in and if your country lives out of debt and within their means better things happens to them and they can live the American dream and even become rich. If a recession hits us or a depression more bad will happen. I want jobs brought back home, every American having the chance of success. I also do not believe in living off welfare or food stamps forever but in certain situations those things are good for people but our gov must take care of our people and our system and look into these things that are being abused and correct them. Alot of our programs are being abused.

I do not like what this adm is trying to teach us as i feel it is the wrong principle. I believe in our freedom and our country and we did right going after Laden but for the life of me i do not understand why we went into Iraq and just go off on wrong paths under this adm. I feel my country has been hijacked by an adm that went into do as they wanted.

I do feel Hillary will be a better diplomat and she will try to balance a budget and get this out of control spending under control and not pretend it is play money. I do not like being a slave to China and i want our jobs back and our freedoms back and our people thinking again and us the leader in industry again. This is why i won't vote Republican next election and i think Hillary is going to do good as a president. I would feel much safer if it was Huckabee, Paul, Romney against Obama, Edwards or Hillary but i see it being Hillary against Rudy.

I have posted elsewhere (which you know) that I am sickened at the prospect of voting for Rudy vs. Hillary. I'm glad that you think Romney and maybe Huckabee might be good choices. I'm hopeful that Romney pulls off the upset and becomes the Republican candidate.

My concern regarding Hillary is not in foreign policy. My concern is domestic policy in a situation where Hillary will likely have a strong Dem Party majority in the House and Senate. I am worried that the extremes of the left side will prevail just like the extremes of the right side prevailed when Bush had a majority Rep Party in the House and Senate.

Seeing that I dislike both Rudy and Hillary, I'd prefer stalemate between the White House and the Congress so that neither can mess things up.

dude1394 · 11-15-2007, 02:18 PM

I don't put out much hope for hydrogen cars unless some sort of biological mechanism of creating hydrogen is discovered.

But electrical cars, that I think is quite viable. Then we can use nuclear/coal to generate the electricity needed. I'm on board with that one as it seems doable and not fantasy-land.

Janett_Reno · 11-16-2007, 12:32 AM

wm, i have mentioned this and why we have the best system in the world is because usually the congress and senate can help stale mate the pres. W had it all his way(for most of his time) and Greenspan said, it is not just Bush and Cheney's fault, it was also the Republican led senate and congress passing Republican issues and helping Republican party matters as they threw us down the road and disreguad for our country, our economy and so forth.

So yes you are right and if Hillary gets in, she will probably have a house and senate majority on her side as Bush did. I hope the Democrats would put their country first and what is best for us and not do what the Republicans did and sell us out and yes it is this possibility. Greenspan said we was going to pay for what they did and he said Republican senators and house members should get beat that is Republican for doing this and not standing up to the bullies. If a Republican was elected i would feel much more comphy if Romney, Huckabee or Paul was. I watched some of the debate tonight and thought it was interesting. I thought they all did pretty good. I smiled and sort of chuckled as Wolf would ask them questions and try to pin a politician down on saying yes or no. It happens with both parties. Why i would chuckle because it would be like, well would you rather be run over by a train, hit by a speeding bus or be in an airplane crash? Obama finally stood up to him and sort of answered, well neither of the three, really Wolf, haha. I say this sort of as a joke but i also understand, you must try to pin point them and say, yes or no.

Dennis K tickles me also. I like alot of the things he says but he can push it one way hard but when they was answering things about the Patriot Act, Dennis K said he was the only one that voted no because he read it. Biden actually stood up for the P act and said some things in it just needed to be corrected. In alot of ways things Dennis K and Paul make sense and it is sort of sad those underdogs really haven't much of a chance.

Guys like Paul and Dennis K voted on so many things that now the public sees and wants(popular side that the public wanted). Where the big whigs for both parties vote one way and later say, well i was wrong and i should have voted the other way or tell their excuse. You know the real answer wm? Both parties do not want to put their political career online and not go against the majority. So Dennis K says, well wouldn't it be good for once to have a pres to vote the right way the first time instead of trying to have to defend the wrong ways they keep votting.

Alot what he was talking about was Iraq war, P act and more. Do not get me wrong, Dennis K is all about peace it seems and stays fired up and we all want peace but it is times we must stand up.

I am with you dude on thinking hydrogen will probably not be the way or popular for us because it would cost alot and the biological mechanism creating and putting it where all could access it.

I also agree on elec cars and i saw on a news program today that 16 new gm cars are comming next year that is hybrid. I know this is not totally off oil but it is a start and it was alot of their popular models, like Impala and many models. I did not go look and see what an Impala gas mileage gets now comappred to like an Impala hybrid. I am proud companies and especially Ford and GM or trying. I am rooting for them. They just got behind in that race as Japan took over with that in Honda and Toyota.