Kevin Martin

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Personally, I'm not at all sure that Houston would trade Martin for Haywood and Roddy.

Me neither...because if they would the mavs would be all over that puppy...If nothing else to re-do woods contract.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by kg_veteran

Martin's defensive shortcomings are my only reservation about him, but let's be serious. Are you acquiring Martin to be a defensive stopper? Furthermore, are you expecting Roddy to be a defensive stopper (or even be a really good defender)? If you answer "yes" to either question, then I'd submit that your expectations are unrealistic.

I think you are comparing Martin to Jet defensively imo...because at the end of the day, that's who's minutes he'll get..

And there will be a lot of 3guard lineups I expect.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

As Roddy sits out the first 25 games with a foot injury...

Make that 25+ with no timetable of return...

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

This hasn't really been publicized more than "the Rockets like Haywood" and "the Mavs have always liked Martin". Everything else has been pure conjecture, unless I missed something.

And I would say the Butler trade had a long lead up to it with many stories being written about the Mavs' interest in him.

Are you sure? I don't remember that at all, honestly. I remember long-standing discussions that we were definitely going to trade Howard, but I don't think Butler's name was ever mentioned more than just one of several guys we were potentially interested in. It's different when you start singling a guy out as a "target" or a person of interest on his own.

[Dirkgreatness]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Make that 25+ with no timetable of return...

Whats your point? Kevin Martin is even worse, missing 20+ games is normal season for him.

[mavs777]

change mind

[Thomas86]

I'm worried about the defense...I'm not sure if I want Chandler, Mahinmi and Ajinca as our centers to battle the Spurs or Lakers in the playoffs.

Martin would help with the offense but when was the last time he made the team he was on better?...

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Are you sure? I don't remember that at all, honestly. I remember long-standing discussions that we were definitely going to trade Howard, but I don't think Butler's name was ever mentioned more than just one of several guys we were potentially interested in. It's different when you start singling a guy out as a "target" or a person of interest on his own.

I'm not sure why it's different if he's alone or mentioned with other people. I don't think anyone has said "Martin is the primary target". All that's really been written is that the Mavs are interested. Or even that they have been in the past.

If someone other than Marc Stein was reporting that the Mavs were actively pursuing Martin, then I agree that I would be skeptical.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by Dirkgreatness

Whats your point? Kevin Martin is even worse, missing 20+ games is normal season for him.

The point is that it's 20+ games with no timetable. How long are you willing to wait on potential

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I'm not sure why it's different if he's alone or mentioned with other people. I don't think anyone has said "Martin is the primary target". All that's really been written is that the Mavs are interested. Or even that they have been in the past.

If someone other than Marc Stein was reporting that the Mavs were actively pursuing Martin, then I agree that I would be skeptical.

I'm not "skeptical" that they like him, but I'm definitely skeptical that they'll get him, for several reasons.

And I think there's absolutely a distinction between the media singling out a guy as a target versus mentioning him in a group of potential candidates. Early in the process before the teams are anywhere near an agreement in principle, it hurts Team A's bargaining power if there are media reports talking specifically about their interest in Team B's player. It obviously becomes way less of an issue as you get closer to an agreement, but early on it can be pretty hindering.

If you're trying to acquire something of this value in an arms-length negotiation, you never want the other party reading/hearing third-party sources that say how interested you are. And you seem a lot more interested (even if that's not actually the case) if there are media stories specifically talking about your interest in that player, rather than that player as one of many. I think that's one of the reasons (surely not the only one) why you rarely see trades completed when there were early reports of the team's interest. Those types of reports have a chilling effect on the deal actually getting done.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not "skeptical" that they like him, but I'm definitely skeptical that they'll get him, for several reasons.

And I think there's absolutely a distinction between the media singling out a guy as a target versus mentioning him in a group of potential candidates. Early in the process before the teams are anywhere near an agreement in principle, it hurts Team A's bargaining power if there are media reports talking specifically about their interest in Team B's player. It obviously becomes way less of an issue as you get closer to an agreement, but early on it can be pretty hindering.

If you're trying to acquire something of this value in an arms-length negotiation, you never want the other party reading/hearing third-party sources say how interested you are. And you seem a lot more interested (even if that's not actually the case) if there are media stories specifically talking about your interest in that player, rather than that player as one of many.

Good point - I'm pretty sure that's why we ended up having to throw those draft picks in for Jason Kidd...

[mavs777]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...radeId=2b3mt3y

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

I'm not "skeptical" that they like him, but I'm definitely skeptical that they'll get him, for several reasons.

And I think there's absolutely a distinction between the media singling out a guy as a target versus mentioning him in a group of potential candidates. Early in the process before the teams are anywhere near an agreement in principle, it hurts Team A's bargaining power if there are media reports talking specifically about their interest in Team B's player. It obviously becomes way less of an issue as you get closer to an agreement, but early on it can be pretty hindering.

If you're trying to acquire something of this value in an arms-length negotiation, you never want the other party reading/hearing third-party sources that say how interested you are. And you seem a lot more interested (even if that's not actually the case) if there are media stories specifically talking about your interest in that player, rather than that player as one of many. I think that's one of the reasons (surely not the only one) why you rarely see trades completed when there were early reports of the team's interest. Those types of reports have a chilling effect on the deal actually getting done.

All that's been said, at all, is that "The Mavs are Kevin Martin guys". That's nothing. It has no bearing on anything.

Taken in the context of a hypothetical, I do agree with your premise to a point. But I think it only comes into play if someone well plugged in is reporting that a team is interested in a guy at the exclusion of all others (or at least much more than others).

The Mavs obviously have been very successful in making surprise trades in the past. They do better than most at keeping their information in house. But I don't believe the inverse, that the presence of a rumor decreases the chances that it will happen, at all.

[mavs777]

doesn't mean anything but martin beasting so far and apparently Memphis's team stayed in Memphis

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

But I don't believe the inverse, that the presence of a rumor decreases the chances that it will happen, at all.

Empirical evidence from other teams would potentially indicate otherwise. Think about any big-name trade the past several years. How far in advance did you hear about it (i.e., that player to that particular team)? It's rarely more than a few days. Gasol to LA was pretty much the day of, as an example.

There's a question of causation there, but the presence of a rumor generally decreases the chance of a business acquisition happening in all contexts. It's a well-accepted principle of negotiation. I'm not sure why you'd claim that it doesn't apply to basketball deals, but unless you can give me some reason for that, I have to assume it does.

[BGMaverick9]

I spoke with more personnel in the Mavs organization this evening, it'll get added in to the piece tomorrow on MMB.

A lot of it will be rehashing general aspects, but it will have those added things I've learned over the course of the day.

[xrobx]

while we're at it maybe we can trade kidd for cp3 and deshawn stevenson for kobe bryant and butler for kevin durant

[sike]

Originally Posted by xrobx

while we're at it maybe we can trade kidd for cp3 and deshawn stevenson for kobe bryant and butler for kevin durant

That seems doubtful.

[xrobx]

Originally Posted by sike

That seems doubtful.

that was the point... this trade seems just as doubtful as those.

[mavs777]

The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.

[stuportremens]

Originally Posted by mavs777

The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.

This is getting ridiculous. The last time he was traded, it was for Carl Landry. At this rate, soon somebody will argue that it takes at least Dirk and Roddy because Dirk alone won't do it.

[stuportremens]

Originally Posted by dude1394

The point is that it's 20+ games with no timetable. How long are you willing to wait on potential

You do realize that Martin is a guy who misses 20+ games just about every season?
Roddy has one freak injury, Martin has a proven track record of missing 20+ games just about EVERY DAMN YEAR.

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by mavs777

The more I think about it the more I would think Houston won't do it unless its TC instead of Haywood.

We're not so hard-up for a second scorer that we're gonna give up the guy who changed the identity of this team.

As a matter of fact, the Mavs look so good right now that we don't even NEED to make a trade to compete - we're fairly solid at every position, so we hold the cards when it comes to making deals.

I think we'd be doing Houston a favor if we traded Haywood to them, since there aren't many 7-footers available in this league... Otherwise, best of luck rebuilding your franchise, fellas - we're fine as-is.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by LonghornDub

Empirical evidence from other teams would potentially indicate otherwise. Think about any big-name trade the past several years. How far in advance did you hear about it (i.e., that player to that particular team)? It's rarely more than a few days. Gasol to LA was pretty much the day of, as an example.

There's a question of causation there, but the presence of a rumor generally decreases the chance of a business acquisition happening in all contexts. It's a well-accepted principle of negotiation. I'm not sure why you'd claim that it doesn't apply to basketball deals, but unless you can give me some reason for that, I have to assume it does.

You really don't think anyone ever wrote "the Lakers like Gasol" before the trade got serious?

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

The Mavericks dislike Deron Williams very much.














I think I just landed us DWill!

[tcat075]

Well, first off, I don't like the chances of this trade actually being pulled off. I don't see the upside for Houston, giving up a young(ish) scorer like Martin for a center who possibly could be solid, but not any better than that. Martin is scoring 23 ppg right now? He possibly could be even better. Haywood is a 10 points 12 board guy at his ceiling right now, and he's four years older. I know the Rockets are lacking center depth, but its not so bad they are prepared to give up their number one scorer to do so.

I remember I wanted Martin last year. He was my preferred player, out of the trio of Butler, Iguodala and him. I like Martin, and he will score if he comes here. He's not a "bad team" scorer or whatever, he's just a scorer. He shoots and he gets to the line. Those are universal skills, which work in every offense. He doesn't have to have certain pieces around him, or a lack of certain pieces, to score. Obviously, his scoring will drop some because there are a lot of veterans used to shooting the ball on this team, but I'd be shocked if it was not within a point or two of 20 ppg.

My problem is whether our defense could absorb the addition of Martin and stay elite. Our defense was not elite last year, so I wanted Martin so that our offense could be elite. Obviously, that's changed. It'd be freaking stupid to gain elite status on one of the ends of the court, and then throw it away due to a rash player acquisition. Martin is pretty awful on that end, by all accounts, and he doesn't get steals or draw charges like JJB and Terry do to help make up for it. I'm not saying Martin would come in and cause our defense to plummet to 15th in the league or something like that, I'm just saying that if the Mavericks fear he would inversely affect the defense, he has no place on this team.

I also hate losing Roddy, because he's one of those few explosive penetrators. Martin drives and draws fouls, but he's not ridiculously explosive like Beaubois is. 80% of his shots are still jumpers (I'd give you Roddy's % but 82games is acting odd right now). Roddy, on the other hand, can basically get into the lane every possession if he wants. Even when he doesn't take shots, the penetration and subsequent collapse of the defense opens up open jump shots for our primarily jump shooting team. That's why Roddy is such a great fit for this team, and I don't think Martin is the same sort of player at all. That right there is why I'd be really, really hesistant to trade away Roddy right now, no matter who we were trading him for.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

The Mavericks dislike Deron Williams very much.














I think I just landed us DWill!

Sweet. I doubt you know this, because its not like people talk about it all the time, but he's from the Colony.

[rabbitproof]

Unless we see another source say something in the next couple days, I'm gonna chalk it up to Fish blowing hot air again.

[BGMaverick9]

here's my article

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2010/12...te-trade-offer

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by rabbitproof

Unless we see another source say something in the next couple days, I'm gonna chalk it up to Fish blowing hot air again.

Well, it depends on what you mean by hot air. I'm sure there is interest on both sides. I don't think there will be anything close to a compromise between the two sides, though. That's where Fish gets it wrong. He reports that Kevin Martin is available, he reports that Haywood is desired by Houston, and somehow, 2+2=27. Now we have Beaubois/Haywood for Martin rumors floating around. In actuality, its just interest from two teams for two players on the other team, which no real deal even being close to being completed. This isn't something Fish is completely pulling out of his ass, but not really true either.

[tcat075]

Originally Posted by BGMaverick9

here's my article

http://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2010/12...te-trade-offer

I love you BG. That was awesome, and I now officially have way more hope than I did before. I still think any deal is quite doubtful, but pointing out that the Rockets have a quantity of wing players was something I had overlooked.

[FreshJive]

http://twitter.com/KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

Maybe Caron would be enough of an addition instead of Roddy. He is a similar asset to Vince.

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.

If they offered Martin for Gortat, then you'd have to imagine they'd go for Haywood.

[grndmstr_c]

Originally Posted by MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs

HOU tried for Gortat, offered Kevin Martin
KBerg_CBS

"Done deal," @CBSSports source says. #Rockets tried to get in mix for Gortat, with Kevin Martin going to #Magic, but "couldn't get it done."

So they're definetely willing to trade Martin for a center.

Very interesting. Wish I knew which other players were being discussed so I could get a better idea of how Martin's being valued in trade discussions. Any way you slice it, though, if you want the Mavericks to land him in a Haywood-centered deal, this has to be an encouraging piece of news.

[FreshJive]

http://twitter.com/TheRocketGuy

The Rockets DID NOT offer Martin. They were interested in Gortat, and offered several scenarios, but never offered Martin.

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by grndmstr_c

Very interesting. Wish I knew which other players were being discussed so I could get a better idea of how Martin's being valued in trade discussions. Any way you slice it, though, if you want the Mavericks to land him in a Haywood-centered deal, this has to be an encouraging piece of news.

It goes back to what I said in my article, he's expendable based on their depth at the position. Add to it that he's their biggest asset in terms of landing what they'd want...it would look promising for a Dallas angle

[BGMaverick9]

Originally Posted by FreshJive

http://twitter.com/TheRocketGuy

The Rockets DID NOT offer Martin. They were interested in Gortat, and offered several scenarios, but never offered Martin.

That still leaves an option open though. It wouldn't be the sexy route though. Like I said, there is going to be interest on both sides...it might not be a home run talent wise but it could still work favorable for both sides.

[LonghornDub]

Originally Posted by jthig32

You really don't think anyone ever wrote "the Lakers like Gasol" before the trade got serious?

I don't remember one way or another. I certainly can't affirmatively say there wasn't, but I don't remember reading anything to that effect. I can say I was completely blindsided by the deal.

But when you phrase it like that and how Fisher wrote his column, you're right that there may not be indication of a serious level of interest (the kind I'm talking about anyway). If all he really said was "the Mavs are Kevin Martin guys," that's not much. I had to go back and read it again because my initial impression was he was saying more than that.

Also, it's possible I'm giving Fish too much credit in terms of his credibility and readership anyway.

[MavsWiLLHaVeRinGs]

Wonder if that's just a COV on the Rockets part so Martin's value doesn't drop.