No one to blame but Dirk

[NYMavFan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

This board actually wants people to think beyond what the uninformed radio or TV guys say. The simple thing to say is "it's all on Dirk". Yes, you can say that, but you're pretty damn stupid if you do.

Murphy, not looking to start a fight here, but who are you to say what this board wants? And what makes you think that you and your basketball knowledge are oh so insightful while everyone on tv and radio is uninformed and stupid? On top of that, what makes you think you know more about this team than me?

Look, I titled this thread 'no one to blame but dirk' to grab attention and to emphasize my point. Any idiot can see that MANY things went wrong with the Mavs to cause this to happen. But the ROOT CAUSE for the series defeat was Dirk's play. You could've fixed every other thing wrong with the Mavs (Avery's coaching mistakes, JT's play, etc.) but I seriously doubt the series would've gone the other way if Dirk still played as passively as he did. I give credit to the Warriors--they were playing out of their minds. It would've taken a lot to beat a team playing like that, but it could've been done if Dirk had played aggressively. For whatever reason, he just didn't.

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Yes, Dirk should take alot of blame, but the answer to the Mavs problems go much deeper than that. You have to examine why the Warriors were able to slow down Dirk. You have to examine what the Mavs could have done to counter it.. What dirk could have done to counter it.

I'll tell you what Dirk could've done. I've said it a million times, and I'll say it again. HE COULD'VE BEEN AGGRESSIVE. I'm not saying he would've split double teams and scored 30 points by doing this. In fact, that's not what would've happened at all given the Warriors' strategy against him. BUT all he had to do was make his presence felt on the court, to let the Warriors know that they were going to have to work hard to take him out of his game. Unless you are blind or the biggest homer on the face of the planet, you HAD to see that Dirk wasn't fighting for position, wasn't demanding the ball, and wasn't making quick moves to put pressure on the D when he actually got the ball. His body language was HORRIBLE the entire game... it basically screamed "I'm a f'n pussy! Push me around cuz I don't have the balls to fight back!"

He CONCEDED to the Warriors and LET them take him out of the game. He gave up. And there's just no excuse for that.

[NYMavFan]

Originally Posted by dude1394

Right..you are really bringing the intelligence here. I miss all of the analysis your 230 posts have brought.

Dude, you're a moron. Glad to see that you value volume over substance. Have you added a damned thing to this thread?

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by NYMavFan

Dude, you're a moron. Glad to see that you value volume over substance. Have you added a damned thing to this thread?

Only the accurate description of your posts.

[purplefrog]

First of all, Dirk is the solution, not the problem. Mavs have to find a way to enhance his unbelieveable skills rather than saying he just can't do it. So, imo the 6 billion dollar question is how do we build a championship team around Dirk. Here is my list of issues ranked from most important to least important:

1. SG: When all is said and done, I am still skeptical that JET and Devin are a championship caliber backcourt. Imo, Devin has the better total package, so I would see if JET has any capital out there. He might not. If there are no takers then we groom him to be our 6th man.

2. Sharpshooter: I still think we need another sharpshooter that we can count on to make open shots against a zone. I don't know if anyone is available, but someone like Kyle Korver comes to mind. I see this hypothetical shooter as the #7 or 8 guy off the bench.

3. PF/C: I would like to see someone other than Dirk play the role of PF on some occassions and C against teams like GSW and Phoenix. Diop played some great ball but I am not sure he is the solution. Again, I do not know who is available to play this role.

4. Too much redundancy: I don't see the point to keeping both Buck and George. I started the season really liking Buckner but he was a huge disappointment.

5. Another superstar to team with Dirk: I think we have to make a decision if JHO is going to be that guy. If not, then I say we shop him around. Maybe a package of JHO and JET could get us a low post scorer or a Paul Pierce type SG.

6. Coaching. Avery is still young and relatively inexperienced and I think he has the potential to be a HOF coach. Do we have time to wait for his development? I say this is a close call but we definitely want to win now rather than 5 years from now. I think we can watch his progress over the next two years. On the other hand, I am a bit concerned the players began to tune him out some during the GSW series.

I am concerned that Dirk seemed so discouraged and confused during the GSW series. Something must be going on with the coaching or his teammates because I do not believe he lacks heart or leadership ability. He showed us too much during last year's playoffs to come to that conclusion. So, imo the Mavs have to find a way to maximize his skills and allow the game to flow from Dirk's strengths. Why do we always say "Dirk has to change this... or Dirk has to become more of that". He is an amazing player with never-before seen skills (for a 7 footer). While everyone (including Dirk) can improve aspects of their game, at end of the day and during crunch time great players should be allowed to do what they do best. Although I am not happy with way Dirk played in the GSW series, nor I am happy with his lack of enthusiasm. But the answer is not to trade Dirk or change Dirk.. The solution imo is to find a way to maximize Dirk.

No matter what, never trade Dirk. Period. He is a great player and teammate. Never never trade Dirk. Don't even think about it because you WILL be sorry.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by jthig32

I find it laughable, and then embarassing that there are Mavs fans out there that want to trade Dirk "the choker" for Garnett "the magical answer".

Absolutely laughable. We already have a hard time on offense when Avery gets outcoached, and you guys want to seriously downgrade the offensive abilities of our best player.

Here's a question: Do you guys realize Dirk and KG have VERY similar offensive games, overall? Garnett is a high post player, same as Dirk, except Dirk is 10 times better at it.

Now against Golden State, Garnett would have been able to get better position down low, sure. So maybe we beat Golden State with Garnett instead of Dirk. MAYBE. So now, what do we do when we play San Antonio? We lose, that's what. Garnett is an upgrade defensively and a downgrade offensively, and he's won less than Dirk.

You know what the biggest knock on Garnett is in Minnesota? He doesn't demand that ball in crunch time, and he gives it up too easily when he does. Been that way for years.

So get off the KG thing, unless you've got away to keep Dirk and get KG, becausse that's the only way getting KG would make this team better.

Their offensive games really aren't that similar at all. Neither has a well-rounded post game (i.e. Tim Duncan). KG isn't the shooter that Dirk is, but he can score in more ways (better penetrator, better finisher). He is also a better passer.

The offensive drop-off from Dirk to KG is minute. However, KG brings much more to the table (better passer, rebounder and defender). He hasn't had much playoff success but he was really only on a good team for one year, and that team went to the WCF before losing to LA (after Cassell got hurt). He hasn't really had the luxury of playing on a talented team like the Mavs, and I don't ever recall him vanishing in a series. There is a difference between losing a series, and losing a series and not showing up at all.

KG on the Mavs would be scary...and I hope it never happens.....

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by purplefrog

I am concerned that Dirk seemed so discouraged and confused during the GSW series. Something must be going on with the coaching or his teammates because I do not believe he lacks heart or leadership ability.

Agreed. It's very disappointing how many "trade Dirk" and "Dirk sucks" posts we've been getting lately.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Their offensive games really aren't that similar at all. Neither has a well-rounded post game (i.e. Tim Duncan). KG isn't the shooter that Dirk is, but he can score in more ways (better penetrator, better finisher). He is also a better passer.

The offensive drop-off from Dirk to KG is minute. However, KG brings much more to the table (better passer, rebounder and defender). He hasn't had much playoff success but he was really only on a good team for one year, and that team went to the WCF before losing to LA (after Cassell got hurt). He hasn't really had the luxury of playing on a talented team like the Mavs, and I don't ever recall him vanishing in a series. There is a difference between losing a series, and losing a series and not showing up at all.

KG on the Mavs would be scary...and I hope it never happens.....

*sigh*

Garnett is a better penetrator? So you're saying he sets up on the wing and penetrates regularly? Really?

Garnett is a better finisher. Garnett does not have a reliable post up game, even at the high post. He's mainly a jump shooter or a finisher of lobs.

Hell, with Garnett on this team, they would need an offensive playmaker even more. If Garnett was asked to create as much offense as Dirk was during the regular season, the offensive efficiency of this team would drop a lot.

Garnett on the Mav would require quite a few personnel changes. Garnett playing next to Damp and Diop would be worthless. Garnett's best skills mirror those guys, rebounding and defense. These past couple season has proved that Garnett plays best when he's next to a center that can move out and hit a 15 footer, ala Mark Blount.

Trading Dirk for KG would make this team worse, not better.

Edit to add:

The one thing Garnett would bring to this team would be a better mindset, that's for sure. He's the most intense guy in the NBA. But Garnett is no where near a dominant scorer. So if you brought him onto this team as it stands, your most reliable crunch time scorer would be JET.

Do you really want to be choosing from Josh, Jet and Garnett for who to go to when you HAVE to have a bucket? Dirk may have failed miserably in that area this postseason, but at least he's done it numerous times in the past. He's shown he can.

Hell even Simmons, who's been very hard on Dirk, wrote an article yesterday stating that Dirk is still a great player, and can recover from this. Let's not act like Dirk can't come back next year and put this team on his back just like he did in the '06 playoffs. I just think he needs a tweak to his supporting cast.

[GP]

I'll admit that I have only read the last couple of posts in this thread. I think I'll add this conjecture to the argument.

If the Mavs and T-pups had somehow made a trade straight up Garnett for Dirk all the pundits would be lobbying for Garnett to be the league MVP on the basis of winning 48-55 games with such a lousy supporting cast. The Mavs certainly would have been bounced out of the first round and everyone would feel sorry for Garnett for having to play without a point guard, without a 2 guard, and without a center. On second thought I am going to say that I doubt this team even wins 45 games with Garnett as the key figure. I mean look at the scrubs and rejects on this team. Terry couldn't win at all in Atlanta. Dampier played on awful teams that couldn't defend in Golden State. George, Buckner, and Croshere are way below average journeyman players. Harris is too raw, still. Diop was a complete washout in Cleveland. He is still 1 dimensional though. Are Diop and Dampier really better than the centers in Minny? Stack once was great, now he is just old. Really, other than Howard do the Mavs really have a better supporting cast than Minnesota's?

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by jthig32

*sigh*

Garnett is a better penetrator? So you're saying he sets up on the wing and penetrates regularly? Really?

Garnett is a better finisher. Garnett does not have a reliable post up game, even at the high post. He's mainly a jump shooter or a finisher of lobs.

So are you really claiming that Dirk penetrates and finishes better than KG? KG has these strenghts mainly due to his build and athleticism, but let't not act like he doesn't have them.

Originally Posted by jthig32

Hell, with Garnett on this team, they would need an offensive playmaker even more. If Garnett was asked to create as much offense as Dirk was during the regular season, the offensive efficiency of this team would drop a lot.

KG is a very dependable offensive player. He still gives you 22 a game on 48%, compared to Dirk's 25 a game on 50%. That's a 3 ppg difference, not very much. I admit Dirk is a better offensive player than KG, but not as much as you are trying to make it out to be. Additionally, I don't see how the offensive efficiency would drop considering KG is a better passer than Dirk is.

Originally Posted by jthig32

Garnett on the Mav would require quite a few personnel changes. Garnett playing next to Damp and Diop would be worthless. Garnett's best skills mirror those guys, rebounding and defense. These past couple season has proved that Garnett plays best when he's next to a center that can move out and hit a 15 footer, ala Mark Blount.

Again, you are discounting KG's 22 a game on a very good shooting percentage. And he is one of the leagues best defenders and rebounders.

Originally Posted by jthig32

Trading Dirk for KG would make this team worse, not better.

Edit to add:

The one thing Garnett would bring to this team would be a better mindset, that's for sure. He's the most intense guy in the NBA. But Garnett is no where near a dominant scorer. So if you brought him onto this team as it stands, your most reliable crunch time scorer would be JET.

It seems like that mindset makes all the difference in the world, IMO. I can never recall KG just vanishing from a series.

Originally Posted by jthig32

Do you really want to be choosing from Josh, Jet and Garnett for who to go to when you HAVE to have a bucket? Dirk may have failed miserably in that area this postseason, but at least he's done it numerous times in the past. He's shown he can.

KG has shown the same thing. he had a very solid supporting cast only one season, and they went to the WCF. He had as many big games in that playoff run as Dirk had in last years. And IMO, Josh, Stack and Harris were the ones stepping up this series...or at least I will say they seemed to be a lot more aggressive than Dirk. From watching it seems like those guys were leaving it all on the floor........

Originally Posted by jthig32

Hell even Simmons, who's been very hard on Dirk, wrote an article yesterday stating that Dirk is still a great player, and can recover from this. Let's not act like Dirk can't come back next year and put this team on his back just like he did in the '06 playoffs. I just think he needs a tweak to his supporting cast.

Dirk is a great player. I just think KG is one too. Sure, you would lose some scoring with Dirk but the rest of KG's game is better.

Originally Posted by GP

I'll admit that I have only read the last couple of posts in this thread. I think I'll add this conjecture to the argument.

If the Mavs and T-pups had somehow made a trade straight up Garnett for Dirk all the pundits would be lobbying for Garnett to be the league MVP on the basis of winning 48-55 games with such a lousy supporting cast. The Mavs certainly would have been bounced out of the first round and everyone would feel sorry for Garnett for having to play without a point guard, without a 2 guard, and without a center. On second thought I am going to say that I doubt this team even wins 45 games with Garnett as the key figure. I mean look at the scrubs and rejects on this team. Terry couldn't win at all in Atlanta. Dampier played on awful teams that couldn't defend in Golden State. George, Buckner, and Croshere are way below average journeyman players. Harris is too raw, still. Diop was a complete washout in Cleveland. He is still 1 dimensional though. Are Diop and Dampier really better than the centers in Minny? Stack once was great, now he is just old. Really, other than Howard do the Mavs really have a better supporting cast than Minnesota's?

Again, maybe my view is just different because I'm an outsider and don't watch all Mavs regular season games. However, from the games I do catch, looking at numbers and playoff games, it seems like y'all really devalue Dirk's supporting cast. Dirk has a "lousy" supporting cast? Are you serious? Josh Howard (all-star) is lousy? Two solid centers is lousy? Two guards that can put the ball in the hole (Jet & Harris), and Jet hits tons of big shots? Stackhouse off the bench? Dirk's supporting cast is very good. Kobe's cast is lousy (Smush Parker is their starting PG). T-Mac's cast in Orlando is lousy (D.Armstrong was the 2nd best player). Every Rocket player not named Yao, T-Mac or Battier is lousy (Chuck Hayes starts for us for God's sake, a 6'6 PF). KG's cast is lousy. Pierce's cast is lousy. Etc....

I have seen Dirk's lousy cast carry the Mavs to a series win against my Rockets when Dirk played like garbage (2005). I can't recall too many times a team has advanced when their best player sucked in a round. When I watched this series (every game) there were many instances where the supporting cast was stepping up to keep the Mavs in the game (Howard 20 in a half, Stack hitting all the 3's, Harris taking over in the 4th and Stack balling to keep them in Game 5, etc). I even believe Howard & Harris bumped their regular season numbers. I just don't see how y'all can say the cast sucks. Granted some other stars have great casts too (Nash, Duncan), but let's not act like Dirk's is mediocore.

[jthig32]

No Dirk doesn't penetrate, and neither does Garnett.

Neither one of them catches the ball on the wing and penetrates. Saying a 7 footer can penetrate is ridiculous.

You would have to watch the Mavs for an entire season to understand what Dirk means to this team offensively. Garnett can't duplicate it.

If Garnett is only marginally worse than Dirk and yet on of the truly greatest rebounders and defenders in the NBA, I'd like to know why he's never done anything.

His only good year, playoffs results wise, was when Sam Cassell was there to hit all the big shots and be the leader of the team.

So what makes you think Garnett can fill that role here?

[Dtownsfinest]

The T-Wolves not doing anything in the playoffs is not on Garnett. Even Jordan needed Pippin' and Kukoc. Not to mention the great shots hit by Kerr and Paxson. T-Wolves have had horrible teams. The best team KG has had is when he had Spree and Cassell there and surprisingly that was the year they made it to the WCF.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

The T-Wolves not doing anything in the playoffs is not on Garnett. Even Jordan needed Pippin' and Kukoc. Not to mention the great shots hit by Kerr and Paxson. T-Wolves have had horrible teams. The best team KG has had is when he had Spree and Cassell there and surprisingly that was the year they made it to the WCF.

Jordan needed those players to win the championship.

We're talking about Garnett having one season in his entire career that he's even won a playoff series.

[dude1394]

Actually dirk does penetrate better than garnett, he has better handles. Very few times will garnett put it on the floor and take it inside.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Jordan needed those players to win the championship.

We're talking about Garnett having one season in his entire career that he's even won a playoff series.

You still need a solid squad to win a playoff series. Kobe is arguably the best player in the game and he can't get out of the 1st round now because his supporting cast sucks. All stars aren't blessed like Dirk with a killer supporting cast.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

So are you really claiming that Dirk penetrates and finishes better than KG? KG has these strenghts mainly due to his build and athleticism, but let't not act like he doesn't have them.



KG is a very dependable offensive player. He still gives you 22 a game on 48%, compared to Dirk's 25 a game on 50%. That's a 3 ppg difference, not very much. I admit Dirk is a better offensive player than KG, but not as much as you are trying to make it out to be. Additionally, I don't see how the offensive efficiency would drop considering KG is a better passer than Dirk is.



Again, you are discounting KG's 22 a game on a very good shooting percentage. And he is one of the leagues best defenders and rebounders.



It seems like that mindset makes all the difference in the world, IMO. I can never recall KG just vanishing from a series.



KG has shown the same thing. he had a very solid supporting cast only one season, and they went to the WCF. He had as many big games in that playoff run as Dirk had in last years. And IMO, Josh, Stack and Harris were the ones stepping up this series...or at least I will say they seemed to be a lot more aggressive than Dirk. From watching it seems like those guys were leaving it all on the floor........



Dirk is a great player. I just think KG is one too. Sure, you would lose some scoring with Dirk but the rest of KG's game is better.



Again, maybe my view is just different because I'm an outsider and don't watch all Mavs regular season games. However, from the games I do catch, looking at numbers and playoff games, it seems like y'all really devalue Dirk's supporting cast. Dirk has a "lousy" supporting cast? Are you serious? Josh Howard (all-star) is lousy? Two solid centers is lousy? Two guards that can put the ball in the hole (Jet & Harris), and Jet hits tons of big shots? Stackhouse off the bench? Dirk's supporting cast is very good. Kobe's cast is lousy (Smush Parker is their starting PG). T-Mac's cast in Orlando is lousy (D.Armstrong was the 2nd best player). Every Rocket player not named Yao, T-Mac or Battier is lousy (Chuck Hayes starts for us for God's sake, a 6'6 PF). KG's cast is lousy. Pierce's cast is lousy. Etc....

I have seen Dirk's lousy cast carry the Mavs to a series win against my Rockets when Dirk played like garbage (2005). I can't recall too many times a team has advanced when their best player sucked in a round. When I watched this series (every game) there were many instances where the supporting cast was stepping up to keep the Mavs in the game (Howard 20 in a half, Stack hitting all the 3's, Harris taking over in the 4th and Stack balling to keep them in Game 5, etc). I even believe Howard & Harris bumped their regular season numbers. I just don't see how y'all can say the cast sucks. Granted some other stars have great casts too (Nash, Duncan), but let's not act like Dirk's is mediocore.

I agree 100%. It seems so funny that some people will try to throw Avery under the bus for what Dirk did. No matter what Dirk did, they are trying to say that Avery told him to, but on the other hand they say that Avery tries to make Dirk drive to the lane and stop taking all those outside jumpers...

As I looked at the series, Dirk never drove the lane, and lived on outside shots. So how is it that Dirk was following Avery's orders? This just does NOT make sense. The truth is that Dirk did NOTHING that Avery wanted him to do. Dirk did his own thing and it cost the Mavs the series. Not only is the media right about Dirk, but I also see that his teammates are saying the same, by not taking up for Dirk.

Lastly, how could any MFFL defend Dirk after the comments b4 Game 4 and after Game 5? There is no way in hell that I defend Dirk EVER again. Not only was his actions out of line on the floor, his words off the court was just as hurtful. Dirk is a proven failure in the playoffs. I said this last year after the finals. The Heat laid the footprints on how to beat Dirk. The NBA is about adjustments and the league has adjusted to Dirk for the playoffs, same as it has for Ginobili.

Dirk is guardable and the only Superstar currently in the NBA who is guardable. I wonder why? Deep down inside we all know the answer. Dirk is the Lion who needs to go to the Wizard of OZ to get that heart.

[a.weidner]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

KG is a very dependable offensive player. He still gives you 22 a game on 48%, compared to Dirk's 25 a game on 50%. That's a 3 ppg difference, not very much. I admit Dirk is a better offensive player than KG, but not as much as you are trying to make it out to be. Additionally, I don't see how the offensive efficiency would drop considering KG is a better passer than Dirk is.

Against Golden State, Dirk was awful by his standards. He averaged:
19.7 PPG
11.3 RPG
.38 FG%

That's actually not that much worse than what Garnett averaged in all the 12 elimination games he played in his NBA career:
19.92 PPG
12.92 RPG
.41 FG%

Dirk's averages in elimination games (13 games total):
27.23 PPG
12.07 RPG
.45 FG%

Now if you wanna argue that Garnett is the better all around player, absolutly. But the rational for trading Dirk would be, that he doesn't get it done under pressure, that he's not able to take games over when it counts.
Well, History suggests the average production you will get from KG, when the season is on the line, will be about what Dirk gave you against Golden State (+3 APG?). Dirk for KG is not an awful trade by any means, but what makes you guys think that with KG at the helm, we could beat the Spurs? What about the Suns? KG couldn't get past the Spurs. Dirk has proven he can, even with Duncan playing at his best.

[jthig32]

Originally Posted by Silk Smoov

I agree 100%. It seems so funny that some people will try to throw Avery under the bus for what Dirk did. No matter what Dirk did, they are trying to say that Avery told him to, but on the other hand they say that Avery tries to make Dirk drive to the lane and stop taking all those outside jumpers...

As I looked at the series, Dirk never drove the lane, and lived on outside shots. So how is it that Dirk was following Avery's orders? This just does NOT make sense. The truth is that Dirk did NOTHING that Avery wanted him to do. Dirk did his own thing and it cost the Mavs the series. Not only is the media right about Dirk, but I also see that his teammates are saying the same, by not taking up for Dirk.

Lastly, how could any MFFL defend Dirk after the comments b4 Game 4 and after Game 5? There is no way in hell that I defend Dirk EVER again. Not only was his actions out of line on the floor, his words off the court was just as hurtful. Dirk is a proven failure in the playoffs. I said this last year after the finals. The Heat laid the footprints on how to beat Dirk. The NBA is about adjustments and the league has adjusted to Dirk for the playoffs, same as it has for Ginobili.

Dirk is guardable and the only Superstar currently in the NBA who is guardable. I wonder why? Deep down inside we all know the answer. Dirk is the Lion who needs to go to the Wizard of OZ to get that heart.

Dirk didn't drive the lane because he was being guarded by players smaller and quicker than him. It's as simple as that.

Saying that you think Dirk wasn't agressive enough is reasonable. Saying that AVery wanted Dirk to drive the lane and Dirk just out and out refused because he was scared is moronic.

And you think Dirk needs to be traded because he's "guardable", but you want to trade him for someone that is infinitely more "guardable". Doesn't make any sense.

[Usually Lurkin]

Dirk for KG because Dirk's a choker. Good grief.

Everyone who's been paying attention knew that this series would be close - 6 games at least - in large part because Nellie knows how to defend Dirk, and how to attack him on the other end. Still, the mavs should have beat the Warriors even with Dirk's crappy performance. All they had to do was hold home court. And they did, except for game one, which they lost because their coach-motivator coached scared, and conceded the style of play. That's the top. Avery is the leader.

Even with Avery's collosal screw up, they would've won if the role players had shown up. We have a few guys on the team who are supposed to hit some shots when Dirk is doubled. Where were Terry, Buck, and George?

A super-dominant #1 seed does not lose to an up-and-coming #8 without severe underperformance by more than one team-member.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Usually Lurkin

A super-dominant #1 seed does not lose to an up-and-coming #8 without severe underperformance by more than one team-member.

Yes. This wasn't an ordinary #8 seed, but this wasn't supposed to be an ordinary #1 seed either.

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

KG is a very dependable offensive player. He still gives you 22 a game on 48%, compared to Dirk's 25 a game on 50%. That's a 3 ppg difference, not very much. I admit Dirk is a better offensive player than KG, but not as much as you are trying to make it out to be. Additionally, I don't see how the offensive efficiency would drop considering KG is a better passer than Dirk is.

Dirk cannot create his own shot on a regular basis. Why would we want to trade him for ANOTHER superstar who cannot create his own shot on a regular basis? Nellie (and other coaches like him) would then just double up on Garnett like they are doing on Dirk.

In fact that is the primary reason that the Wolves have never won a playoff series except that one glorious run. In the playoffs everyone would double KG and dare the rest of the team to do something about it. The one extended run, the Wolves had the answer for teams that doubled Garnett and that was Cassell and Spree.

[GP]

Originally Posted by Dirkadirkastan

Yes. This wasn't an ordinary #8 seed, but this wasn't supposed to be an ordinary #1 seed either.

Really, because I don't think any of the national pundits were saying the Mavs were far and away better than the other elite teams like Chicago used to be. In fact, most were saying that both Phoenix and San Antonio were better. Everyone knew the Mavs were going to have their hands full with Golden State, except of course Marc Stein. If the Mavs were overwhelmingly dominant then they would have been expected to go 16-1 or 16-2 during the playoffs. I don't think anyone thought the Mavs could dominate Utah or Houston, then Phoenix or San Antonio and then Detroit. It was going to be a tough row to hoe whether or not they killed Golden State or not. If anything, I thought they were one of the weaker #1 seeds mainly because their record was plumped up by beating the tar out of injury laden or just plain bad NBA teams. Of course, all the teams played the same teams so it sort of evens out. If every team plays to their capacity for the entire year I don't believe the Mavs win more than 60 games and Phoenix doesn't even win 60.

[Lor20]

i think houston would have been a cakewalk for the mavs. spurs and suns are a lil difficult but with HCA we would have taken them in 5-7 aswell. our team is built to beat the spurs, and detroit. we need another option on our guard position to play with teams like the suns or GS. thats all though really. a low post scorer is all good and fine but a) i think dirk can get his low post game to be atleast somewhat efficient over the summer. and b) if we have someone who can score there we still need a guard to be able to pass into the low post or atleast close to it.

[kingmalaki]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Dirk cannot create his own shot on a regular basis. Why would we want to trade him for ANOTHER superstar who cannot create his own shot on a regular basis? Nellie (and other coaches like him) would then just double up on Garnett like they are doing on Dirk.

In fact that is the primary reason that the Wolves have never won a playoff series except that one glorious run. In the playoffs everyone would double KG and dare the rest of the team to do something about it. The one extended run, the Wolves had the answer for teams that doubled Garnett and that was Cassell and Spree.

Because if KG isn't scoring he still has big-time impact in other parts of the game. If Dirk isn't dominating offensively his impact decreases dramatically.

I also think Dirk is better at creating his own shot, but that's another argument.

[TVI]

Originally Posted by MFFL

Dirk cannot create his own shot on a regular basis. Why would we want to trade him for ANOTHER superstar who cannot create his own shot on a regular basis? Nellie (and other coaches like him) would then just double up on Garnett like they are doing on Dirk.

I'm not in the "trade Dirk" camp, but you have to admit that KG can have a tremendous impact on a game, even if he's not scoring well. He consistently rebounds well, and his shot blocking ability is unquestioned. I don't think anyone will argue that KG is a more well-rounded player than Dirk.

That said, if Dirk were teamed up with someone like Baron Davis (hypothetically of course but that sure would be a dangerous combo), then you'd have a guy who can penetrate or hit the big shot with the game on the line, and Dirk can still do what he does all year long.

I think Avery's right about needing a true point guard, and for whatever reason, he's not sold on Harris. Maybe he just doesn't have the patience to let him develop. I don't believe that Jet is the answer to that position hole either (let's face it -- he's a more natural off guard).

[MFFL]

Originally Posted by kingmalaki

Because if KG isn't scoring he still has big-time impact in other parts of the game. If Dirk isn't dominating offensively his impact decreases dramatically.

I also think Dirk is better at creating his own shot, but that's another argument.

But the Mavs needed a player who could step up and score more than anything else in the GS series. KG can't do that. KG without another player who can command a double is pretty much worthless offensively.

In fact I've came to the conclusion that teaming Dirk and KG together wouldn't accomplish much more than either of them has done - the double team would just rotate to whoever has the ball. Neither can create their own shot.

The Mavs need a playmaker on offense who can create his own shot - thus making better shots for his teammates. Harris can create occasionally but not consistently. A penetrating guard is what we need.

[Murphy3]

Dirk cannot create his own shot on a regular basis? He's spent the past 3 seasons without Nash constantly creating his own shots. He has had virtually no point guard to create anything for him yet he still hit over 50% of his shots this season. If anything, Dirk has shown that he can indeed create shots for himself on a regular basis without the assistance of anyone else on the court.

[Dirkadirkastan]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Dirk cannot create his own shot on a regular basis? He's spent the past 3 seasons without Nash constantly creating his own shots. He has had virtually no point guard to create anything for him yet he still hit over 50% of his shots this season. If anything, Dirk has shown that he can indeed create shots for himself on a regular basis without the assistance of anyone else on the court.

Murph, don't bother trying to defend Dirk right now. We've all watched him for years, and if it takes one bad series for them all to throw him under the bus, then it takes one good series for them to label him a hero again. Just let the bandwagoners be.

[She_Growls]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

Dirk cannot create his own shot on a regular basis? He's spent the past 3 seasons without Nash constantly creating his own shots. He has had virtually no point guard to create anything for him yet he still hit over 50% of his shots this season. If anything, Dirk has shown that he can indeed create shots for himself on a regular basis without the assistance of anyone else on the court.

Actually....a good post. I agree. Imagine what Dirk could STILL do with a true point guard again, nothing against JET or Devin. I still believe Devin can get the job done if Avery let's him. However, I do expect some major moves this off-season and I am okay with parting ways with JET and maybe Josh.

[She_Growls]

In all fairness, I love this team and Avery and I was glad to hear Avery stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for this playoff series. BUT, Avery keeps stating that the team lost confidence and that this is his biggest disappointment. However, I think what he should be saying is that he LOST confidence. When he changed that damn line-up in the 1st game, he lost confidence in his team to get the job done. We played an entire season with the same line-up, which resulted in 67 wins and you changed the line-up in game 1? What type of message did Avery send to his players? AND, what type of message did Avery send to GSW? It sure wasn't one of "confidence". Just the opposite. Avery basically conceded that he did not believe in his team and instead tried to mastermind the mad scientist. Not only did he put Dirk at a disadvantage at center, but the entire line-up was thrown off and confused. That first game destroyed everything they worked for all season long. To make matters worst, Avery has stood on the side lines all year long coaching, calling out plays, but I thought it was interesting that he wasn't yelling as much during this series. Why? Because he didn't have anymore clues as to what to do, so the players were lost and confused and making uncharacteristic mistakes on the court. You can't coach 82 games all year and then somehow expect the team to figure it out all of a sudden. I love Avery dearly and I am in his corner, but, I put this series all on Avery. He needs to look at himself. The lack of confidence started with him, not Dirk or the rest of the team. He has a long off-season to figure it out, but basically he was out-coached and intimidated by his teacher, good ole Nellie , which is okay. Avery is still a rookie coach and he will be just fine. MFFL.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by She_Growls

Actually....a good post. I agree. Imagine what Dirk could STILL do with a true point guard again, nothing against JET or Devin. I still believe Devin can get the job done if Avery let's him. However, I do expect some major moves this off-season and I am okay with parting ways with JET and maybe Josh.

Yep, Dirk has had probably his three best seasons after the true PG left the team. With all of the advancements that Dirk has made in his game, can you imagine his efficiency if he actually did have someone on the team that could create a few shots for him from time to time? The fact that he shot 50% this season with no one that could pass the ball at a clip near that of a NBA PG on the team should say something as to just how gifted the player is.

[She_Growls]

Exactly, so in spite of, he succeed and stepped up his game. I get excited just thinking about a true PG....Mark, Donnie and Avery have work to do.

[Murphy3]

But is that all the team needs? Will teams still double Dirk without the ball even with a true PG? The Mavs will still be in need of someone that can make other teams pay when they double dirk.. Now, perhaps having a PG that can distribute will make it alot easier to do so...

[Re-Dirk-ulous]

Originally Posted by She_Growls

In all fairness, I love this team and Avery and I was glad to hear Avery stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for this playoff series. BUT, Avery keeps stating that the team lost confidence and that this is his biggest disappointment. However, I think what he should be saying is that he LOST confidence. When he changed that damn line-up in the 1st game, he lost confidence in his team to get the job done. We played an entire season with the same line-up, which resulted in 67 wins and you changed the line-up in game 1? What type of message did Avery send to his players? AND, what type of message did Avery send to GSW? It sure wasn't one of "confidence". Just the opposite. Avery basically conceded that he did not believe in his team and instead tried to mastermind the mad scientist. Not only did he put Dirk at a disadvantage at center, but the entire line-up was thrown off and confused. That first game destroyed everything they worked for all season long. To make matters worst, Avery has stood on the side lines all year long coaching, calling out plays, but I thought it was interesting that he wasn't yelling as much during this series. Why? Because he didn't have anymore clues as to what to do, so the players were lost and confused and making uncharacteristic mistakes on the court. You can't coach 82 games all year and then somehow expect the team to figure it out all of a sudden. I love Avery dearly and I am in his corner, but, I put this series all on Avery. He needs to look at himself. The lack of confidence started with him, not Dirk or the rest of the team. He has a long off-season to figure it out, but basically he was out-coached and intimidated by his teacher, good ole Nellie , which is okay. Avery is still a rookie coach and he will be just fine. MFFL.

Not only that. Avery broke the damn mantra. The banners we have in the Mavs practice court read, "Our way, our will, our win"... as well as the ones that read, "Take the defensive challenge!". All those banner and beliefs are the work of AJ, and it has worked. It won us 67 games. AJ did lose confidence when he BROKE "OUR WAY", and with that we lost "OUR WILL" and "OUR WIN".

Here is a quote from an old article I read...

"Dallas: Credit Coach Avery Johnson. Call it "hokey," but because it actually has worked we'll go with "unconventional." Johnson has 11 banners ringing his practice court, and they are messages such as "Our way, our will, our win!" and "Take the defensive challenge!" There can be no more jokes about "no D in Dallas," because Johnson's was the only team in the league among the top 10 with most points scored and fewest points allowed. Given that the roster is good, not great, it's amazing the Mavericks are up for best record in the West."

[TruthbHeard]

I agree with the guy who made this post, I used to love dirk, but he let it happen again the same with the finals, he let the heat of the outside media get in his german head, Now he should be gone along with Terry and Stack, bring in players that can play defense and dish the ball to fit averys system, then we will see a championship

[She_Growls]

Originally Posted by Murphy3

But is that all the team needs? Will teams still double Dirk without the ball even with a true PG? The Mavs will still be in need of someone that can make other teams pay when they double dirk.. Now, perhaps having a PG that can distribute will make it alot easier to do so...

Yea, we do need more than a PG; we still need a Robin. Josh is really a role player, but he tried. Not his fault. We still need a Robin to play along side Dirk. I like the idea of KG, but I can't see it happening. Vince Carter is too weak for my taste. Maybe Ray Allen, but we definitely have more problems that the PG to address...I miss the big 3.

[Murphy3]

Originally Posted by TruthbHeard

I agree with the guy who made this post, I used to love dirk, but he let it happen again the same with the finals, he let the heat of the outside media get in his german head, Now he should be gone along with Terry and Stack, bring in players that can play defense and dish the ball to fit averys system, then we will see a championship

...you'll see a lottery team.

[dude1394]

Originally Posted by TruthbHeard

I agree with the guy who made this post, I used to love dirk, but he let it happen again the same with the finals, he let the heat of the outside media get in his german head, Now he should be gone along with Terry and Stack, bring in players that can play defense and dish the ball to fit averys system, then we will see a championship

Wow...so dirk, terry, stack gone...josh, devin I guess are the new superstars but they can't even make an all-star team and devin can't hit an outside shot. Man go outside and jump off a ledge.

[GP]

Originally Posted by She_Growls

In all fairness, I love this team and Avery and I was glad to hear Avery stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility for this playoff series. BUT, Avery keeps stating that the team lost confidence and that this is his biggest disappointment. However, I think what he should be saying is that he LOST confidence. When he changed that damn line-up in the 1st game, he lost confidence in his team to get the job done. We played an entire season with the same line-up, which resulted in 67 wins and you changed the line-up in game 1? What type of message did Avery send to his players? AND, what type of message did Avery send to GSW? It sure wasn't one of "confidence". Just the opposite. Avery basically conceded that he did not believe in his team and instead tried to mastermind the mad scientist. Not only did he put Dirk at a disadvantage at center, but the entire line-up was thrown off and confused. That first game destroyed everything they worked for all season long. To make matters worst, Avery has stood on the side lines all year long coaching, calling out plays, but I thought it was interesting that he wasn't yelling as much during this series. Why? Because he didn't have anymore clues as to what to do, so the players were lost and confused and making uncharacteristic mistakes on the court. You can't coach 82 games all year and then somehow expect the team to figure it out all of a sudden. I love Avery dearly and I am in his corner, but, I put this series all on Avery. He needs to look at himself. The lack of confidence started with him, not Dirk or the rest of the team. He has a long off-season to figure it out, but basically he was out-coached and intimidated by his teacher, good ole Nellie , which is okay. Avery is still a rookie coach and he will be just fine. MFFL.

You know I just don't think that Avery stood up and took the blame. He used a lot of qualifiers and I thought he basically was saying that it was all Dirk's and Terry's fault. The problem with the media is that they never report everything that is said or in context and they always interpret it the way they want the story to go and not the way it actually is. Avery was throwing the players under the bus, and even Fisher over at DB.com used the word hedging in describing his acceptance of blame. I don't believe for a second that he thinks he got outcoached or that he is to blame. Basically, every move he made backfired in this series from resting guys at the end of the season to matching up with Nellie's small ball to having the team shoot nothing but 3's to start the final game. I mean, he never allowed Dirk to be Dirk for the entire season by shooting 3's and doing what he does best. Instead, he tried to make him a Tim Duncan clone and put him in positions where he was easily doubled by quicker players completely throwing off his game. Then when he needed Dirk to be Dirk and make 3's he could only deliver during that last 3 minutes of game 5. Of course, having 2 and 3 defenders draped all over him might have had something to do with it as well.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by jthig32

Dirk didn't drive the lane because he was being guarded by players smaller and quicker than him. It's as simple as that.

Saying that you think Dirk wasn't agressive enough is reasonable. Saying that AVery wanted Dirk to drive the lane and Dirk just out and out refused because he was scared is moronic.

And you think Dirk needs to be traded because he's "guardable", but you want to trade him for someone that is infinitely more "guardable". Doesn't make any sense.

The only moronic statement is you thinking that Dirk is NOT a choke artist. Dirk is a sorry as* player who QUIT on his team.

Here are the quotes from the QUITTER:

April 30, 2007
Barkley rips Dirk's quitter quote
"I wouldn't say we're worried, but our backs are against the wall," Dirk Nowitzki said in Eddie Sefko's story Saturday. "If we lose [today], this season is pretty much over."

Do you want me to also post Dirk's comments AFTER game 4? Stop defending a QUITTER. Dirk quite on his team, and decided to NOT even show up. Dirk quit for 5 games in the series. I can take one game to quit on a team, but 5 games in a series is totally MORONIC.

Dirk does NOT deserve the MVP, because he QUIT on his team. No Superstar in the history of SPORTS have played like that along with making those kind of statements about your team's chances. No player at all. This lead to the greatest collapse in the history of the NBA.

[Silk Smoov]

Originally Posted by She_Growls

Actually....a good post. I agree. Imagine what Dirk could STILL do with a true point guard again, nothing against JET or Devin. I still believe Devin can get the job done if Avery let's him. However, I do expect some major moves this off-season and I am okay with parting ways with JET and maybe Josh.

So you want the #1 outside shooter gone, that is also the best consistent PG on the team, and also your ideal Robin type of player gone? Are you sure you are a Mavs fan? I maybe could understand losing one player, but why get rid of two players that did NOT choke and QUIT on the team? Dirk is the one who quit.