Dirk to Mark: Keep chillin Cubes! - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

ReDIRKulous · 02-14-2004, 12:22 AM

Fox blurb

Nowitzki to Cuban: Relax
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GREG BEACHAM / Associated Press
Posted: 2 hours ago
LOS ANGELES (AP) — German NBA star Dirk Nowitzki thinks his Dallas Mavericks boss Mark Cuban worries too much.

Cuban made headlines last weekend after trading jabs with U.S. coach Larry Brown over NBA players' involvement in the Olympics and other international tournaments.
Cuban would prefer to keep his high-priced players out of international events to safeguard their health, though he hasn't yet made an ultimatum to international regulars Nowitzki, Steve Nash of Canada and Eduardo Najera of Mexico.

Nowitzki, a Western Conference reserve for the NBA All-Star game on Sunday, was the Most Valuable Player of the 2002 world championships. He also participated in the European Championships last summer, and he doesn't think any of it has affected his play for the Mavericks - quite the contrary, in fact.

"The whole thing is a little overrated," Nowitzki said. "I'm 25 years old. I can take it. If I wasn't playing there, I'd be playing pickup every night. It's just not a big deal.

"When I'm in competition, I'm getting better. You can really improve your game if you're working at it all the time. I don't think it's something to worry about."

ddh33 · 02-14-2004, 01:06 AM

Again, I agree with both parties. Cuban is a great business man because he does't take high risks when the reward is not great for him. Dirk is a great player for wanting to play, and a god guy for wanting to represent his country. This whole thing has really been blown out of proportion.

I do completely agree with Dirk about playing international competition not being a big deal. I mean, don't these guys play for hours every single day? Wouldn't they play rough and tough pickup games all summer anyway? It shouldn't be the excuse that it is. But somehow, guys who play during the summer in these competitions struggle when the season rolls around. I can't explain it.

ReDIRKulous · 02-14-2004, 01:19 AM

I just think it is too much. 82 games... plus the post season... plus feeling like they have to carry their countries teams. I know that Dirk cares more aobut carrying his team to the olympics than he would care about winning a pick up game. The players aren't going to back out of the international competition either. Their home countries would resent them for it. You basically have to protect the players from themselves in this situation.

The NBA season is just too grueling to add the international competition to it.

twelli · 02-14-2004, 02:00 AM

I don't think pick-up games and international competition are the same pair of shoes. If you play with your buddies without anyone watching you can work on various aspects of your game without caring about the outcome of the game. You can adjust the intensity of the game according to your physical fitness and prevent injuries by avoiding certain moves etc. In international competition there a millions of people watching, expecting you to play the best you can, you travel more, you have interviews, and a lot of added stress to compensate. And there are a lot of non-NBA player who will play you extra hard to show that they belong in the NBA as well. Not very healthy, indeed. As I said in the Cuban vs. Brown thread, fix it in the contracts. Let players decide before signing a contract if they need the right to play for their countries. I think the international games should be non-NBA players only. If you want to see the best players playing each other, you can watch them in the NBA for 7~8 months anyway.

twelli · 02-14-2004, 02:14 AM

another thought:

why not ask the players to pay for taking part in international competition or at least pay for the insurance? if dirk plays for Germany, the TV ratings in his home country go up and he as a lot of opportunities to make endorsement deals. Yao, who has probably no other choice than playing for China, can surely make some extra China money in the off season...

dude1394 · 02-14-2004, 05:19 AM

Well nellie for one said that dirk did NOT improve his game last year. Playing pickup is not the same as focused workouts on a specific part of your game. And again it's easy for dirk to say all of this junk, he's not paying the bills. If he gets hurt, so what, no skin off his teeth.

mavsman · 02-14-2004, 06:37 AM

But Nellie also said that Dirk did improve from season to season since he joined the league and he did play in international competition almost every summer.
Of the things Dirk says, what especially is it you think is "junk"? The fact that he just likes to play and would do it anyhow, international competition or not? I like that and more power to him for not gaining 30 lbs during the summer while being glued to the playstation or going to Vegas getting wasted every night. Besides, as Kobe proved, household accidents are the most likely cause for injuries.

mavsman · 02-14-2004, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: twelli
another thought:

why not ask the players to pay for taking part in international competition or at least pay for the insurance?

Actually they did just that two years ago, when Dirk paid the larger part of the $ 200.000 for the insurance to be able to play in the 2002 Worlds.
Link

Chiwas · 02-14-2004, 11:46 AM

I think we have lost a key point on this:

Quote:

though he hasn't yet made an ultimatum to international regulars Nowitzki, Steve Nash of Canada and Eduardo Najera of Mexico.

Even in the contracts or not, Cuban could ask for it, but he hasn't done it. All, TAW included, have played a lot not Mavs games, above all during last summer.

Cuban is only making a point, not forcing things. I feel he wants to get a consensus which speaks well about him, cause again: he could require it.

Although I like those players playing with their national teams, I wonder how many injuries could be avoided during the season if they could rest the whole summer, and if this is worth compared to what Dirk says about getting their level improved playing constantly.

dude1394 · 02-14-2004, 12:10 PM

This is the junk:

Quote:

"The whole thing is a little overrated," Nowitzki said. "I'm 25 years old. I can take it. If I wasn't playing there, I'd be playing pickup every night. It's just not a big deal.

"When I'm in competition, I'm getting better. You can really improve your game if you're working at it all the time. I don't think it's something to worry about."

Pretty much everything he said. He CAN'T take it. He got another ankle turn this summer that kept him from working out i'm sure. He's NOT as sharp this year as last. I do not believe that he gets better in competition when his team just expects him to fill it up predominantly from the outside. That's NOT his weak points.

He says that this competition improves his game, I don't buy it. I can see him taking a lot more time in the weight room, working on low-post moves with a trainer. I can see for example michael finley spending the whole summer working on his handles, seems like an obvious deal to me.

Look at how malone works in the off-season. Doesn't touch a basketball at all. All he does is work-out, get stronger and more physically ready to play. Again as mark told brown, dirk doesn't know what he's talking about her.

mavsman · 02-14-2004, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: dude1394
Again as mark told brown, dirk doesn't know what he's talking about her.

So you really think that Dirk doesn't know what he's talking about when he's talking about his own body? That's at least an interesting opinion. But why don't we look at the facts:

1999: Played for Germany in the Euro Championships, the following season was voted 2nd MIP.
2001: Played for Germany in the Euro Championships where he was the top-scorer, the following season became an All-Star for the first time.
2002: Played for Germany in the World Championships where he was the MVP, the following season became an All-Star once again, increased his production yet again.

Working on his weak points is what he does anyways every year, regardless if there's a two-week-long international tournament or not. The NBA summer is long.
Also, I'm sorry, using Malone's preparation as an example doesn't really fly this year.

ReDIRKulous · 02-14-2004, 01:35 PM

It is obvious that International competition is damaging the quality of play of the players that participate... especially those that play through out the post season. Almost every person that particiapted in the international competition this year and last either struggled or had an injury early in the season. There is no doubt it affects players... it is just a matter of how much.

I am guessing that the biggest problem Cuban has is that the NBA has no control over how the international competition is officiated. The Mavs stars had a huge target on them and they had a ton of physical play directed at them and the international refs did nothing to protect them. If I was Cuban... or one of the players... that would be my biggest concern.

LRB · 02-14-2004, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Also, I'm sorry, using Malone's preparation as an example doesn't really fly this year.

Actually I think it does. That Malone can even play at a high level at his age is a tremendous accomplishment. Malone is out, not with some injury incurred over the summer, but because of a freak accident that couldn't have been avoided. While Dirk has suffered all season practically from recurring ankle injuries that started last season. Also Dirk has started the last 2 seasons very slowly and has had to take longer than most players to get up to speed.

I don't think that the international competition is even keeping Dirk in form, much less helping him improve. He comes back more passive at the start of the year and has to gradually work up his agressiveness. Also, international competition is far more likely to have dirty plays than pickup games because the stakes are so much higher. I've played with the same groups of guys in league games and in pickup games, and I can tell you that the intensity and the fouls are much harder in league games.

Dirk would be much better playing some pickup games against NBA caliber opponents than participating in international competition where only a few players on the opposing team are NBA caliber. The reward versus risk is much higher for pickup games than for international play.

SeriousSummer · 02-14-2004, 02:20 PM

From the time I was in Junior High School until after I turned 40, I played ball every day. EVERY DAY. Until I was in my late twenties, I usually played at least 3 or 4 hours each day--more on weekends. Lots of games where the winning shot--to stay on the court--had to come from outside because anybody taking the ball to the hoop was going to get knocked down hard. Games outside when it was over 100, games when we had to sweep the snow off the court, games of twenty-one with thirty guys on the court at once, games in inner city courts where I was the only white guy, games in barns where they'd run you into the posts, games where you had to be willing to fight to make a foul call stand up.

If you love to play--like Dirk obviously does--then you're going to play. I've read stories about NBA players driving around the city trying to find a pick-up game. I've played in games where some NBA guy was 100 times better than anybody in the competition, and they still wanted to play. And those guys might stay outside launching 30 footers all night, unless they were in danger of losing. Then they'd take it to the hoop and you better get out of their way.

Real ballers, guys (and gals) who love the game are going to find a place to play. Dirk's probably safer in organized, international games then he would be in pick-up games where every 6'4" and bigger guy is going to try to dunk on him or block him.

The other thing is, if Dirk didn't love to play that much, he wouldn't be half the player he is.

MavsFanFinley · 02-14-2004, 02:46 PM

Quote:

And again it's easy for dirk to say all of this junk, he's not paying the bills. If he gets hurt, so what, no skin off his teeth.

Exactly Dude. If Dirk sprains his ankle(s) again or blows out a knee, he's still going to get paid. But, the Mavs will be screwed and that's what Cuban is talking about.

Pickup games and working out are to be expected just to keep in shape and to keep their games flowing, but it's a different forum when you're talking about International play.

I hope they pass over Finley if Kobe has to skip the Olympics.

mavsman · 02-14-2004, 03:34 PM

Quote:

I don't think that the international competition is even keeping Dirk in form, much less helping him improve.

He says it does. And I'm willing to believe him, because except for this season [where, as you already said, he had to endure injuries that started last season (NOT during International Competition)], it's hard to ignore the facts that he actually improved from season to season while playing for Germany during the summer.

Quote:

Dirk would be much better playing some pickup games against NBA caliber opponents than participating in international competition where only a few players on the opposing team are NBA caliber.

If that was true, I'm sure Team USA consisting of 9 All-Stars and three NBA veterans would've finished better than sixth in the last World Championships. The opposite is true, amateurs in pickup games take every chance to dunk on the NBA-guy. Much higher risk there.

Murphy3 · 02-14-2004, 07:55 PM

I'm thankful that Dirk has played in international competition throughout the years. I doubt he'd be nearly as far along as he currently is if he had not participated in the competition. Perhaps Cuban just wants the players to participate in the competition until they get to a certain stage in their career when they become to valuable. It sounds as if he wants the best of both worlds. In Cuban's mind...'International basketball, thank you for helping to develop one of the best NBA basketball players in the game. But, screw you, he doesn't need it anymore. It's too big of a risk.'

Bayliss · 02-14-2004, 08:27 PM

Dude, the reason Dirk hasn't "showcased" anything he has learned this summer has been because Nellie doesn't utilize it from Dirk? After all, if Nellie wanted Dirk to learn some post moves, it would seem like Nellie would put Dirk in the post frequently to "hone" those skills in gametime action. But has Dirk been posting up much this year? Not much. And he has developed a hook with both hands. Now he just needs to become more confident in using that move in the post. But that will only come with repetition. But Nellie rarely uses repetition in games.

As for Dirk playing internationally. He shouldnn't play more. Vlade at 36 (who was never a "banging" center") is worn down tremendously because of it all. And when Vlade says it is grueling, I would listen.... Dirk's future is with the Mavericks. And it should stay that way unless he is traded or retires.

LRB · 02-14-2004, 08:37 PM

Quote:

If that was true, I'm sure Team USA consisting of 9 All-Stars and three NBA veterans would've finished better than sixth in the last World Championships. The opposite is true, amateurs in pickup games take every chance to dunk on the NBA-guy. Much higher risk there.

Team USA finished so low because of poor play as a team, not because of lack of inidividual talent. However Dirk is not going to perfect his post moves, passing, and defense playing against inferior talent in international competition. Dirk's biggest improvement as a pro came after he played in the Mavs summer league. The style of play in international competition as well as the rules are much different than the NBA. And what works well defensively in international play may get you butt kicked in the NBA.

As for amateurs in pickup games trying to dunk on NBA guys. You can find pickup games which are almost exclusively NBA guys with few exceptions. In international play there are tons of amateurs. And they have much more incentive to play dirty than the guys in pickup games.

Chiwas · 02-14-2004, 09:37 PM

Wasn't Dirk injured just before the European Pre-Olympics? Didn't he play bad that tournament? He had the proper conclussion before his eyes and told a different meaning in the report.

Najera said, "I'm paying now for what I did wrong" (sort of).

Has this season been better for Nash compared to last three years? I don't think so.

Where is TAW now? Still in the IL without being injured, with two rookies playing his position.

I think the past summer -the pre-Olympics summer- did not any good for the involved Mavs.

mavsman · 02-14-2004, 09:44 PM

On the verge of getting OT:

LRB: I can see where you're coming from, but in your former post you made it sound like you thought that the level of play (or players) in international competition was below that of a pickup game. If it was, even a team of NBA All-Stars that's not playing as a team should be able to beat a team of "amateurs", just like a team of college all-americans should beat any given high-school team.
But in fact, you're mistaken if you think that international players that don't play in the NBA don't play at an NBA level, at least at the level of your typical NBA 8th-12th player. There's a lot of players, like Sabonis who wouldn't come to the NBA until he was past his prime, or Bodiroga, who a lot of times was the best player on a Serbian team that included Peja and Divac, or Oscar Schmidt and Nico Galis back in the 80ies, who'd be immediate stars in the league, not to mention the masses of players that could make the cut but chose to play closer to their home country with a better pay than they'd recieve in the NBA. I mean, it's not like Stefansson was one of the best European guards or like TAW was France's best forward.
Those are no amateurs anymore.
And actually, international rules are much stiffer than NBA rules. Just watch it from time to time.

twelli · 02-14-2004, 09:45 PM

here is another solution:

why not set an age limit, say only NBA-players younger than 25 are eligible for playing in international competition? That would make everyone happy.

Young players: Chance to represent their countries. Chance to get some more playoff-type experience. If injured, recovery time shorter.

Old players: Get some more rest in the off-season. No obligations and pressure to play for national teams. Give younger players a chance to play.

Owners: Less worries about losing a major player to injury.

National teams, of course, would have to live without their best and often only older super star players...

I am not quite sure how NBA players find players for pickup games. Can anyone tell me? They aren't really driving aroud at night and playing with ANYONE, are they? I can't image Dirk picks some 7-foot super thugs to play with...

LRB · 02-14-2004, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by: mavsman
On the verge of getting OT:

LRB: I can see where you're coming from, but in your former post you made it sound like you thought that the level of play (or players) in international competition was below that of a pickup game. If it was, even a team of NBA All-Stars that's not playing as a team should be able to beat a team of "amateurs", just like a team of college all-americans should beat any given high-school team.
But in fact, you're mistaken if you think that international players that don't play in the NBA don't play at an NBA level, at least at the level of your typical NBA 8th-12th player. There's a lot of players, like Sabonis who wouldn't come to the NBA until he was past his prime, or Bodiroga, who a lot of times was the best player on a Serbian team that included Peja and Divac, or Oscar Schmidt and Nico Galis back in the 80ies, who'd be immediate stars in the league, not to mention the masses of players that could make the cut but chose to play closer to their home country with a better pay than they'd recieve in the NBA. I mean, it's not like Stefansson was one of the best European guards or like TAW was France's best forward.
Those are no amateurs anymore.
And actually, international rules are much stiffer than NBA rules. Just watch it from time to time.

Mavsman while there are several players in international play that could make the NBA, still most don't have the talent to. Even those who have the talent rarely play the same as in the NBA. The NBA is much more physical. International players almost always comment on this. Also, there is a big adjustment to playing NBA defense because of the differing styles and ther general higher athletism in the NBA. So the vast majority of international players aren't good enough to even be 12th or even 15th men in the NBA. And among those who are, your rarely will face a team where the majority are that good. However, you don't have to be very good to take a cheap shot at someone. Heck, even I could take a cheap shot and have a good chance of hurting an NBA player. When playing for national pride, it is much more likely to take a cheap shot that could cause serious injury.

A huge difference in international play is the closer 3pt line. This makes a tremendous difference. Especially with the art of the midrange jumper becoming lost in the NBA. The US still should not have lost in international play, but they played at cross purposes to each other. There was lots of talent, but not the right team mixture. They were unfamilar with the rules. Their opponents played over their heads, while the NBA guys went on cold streaks. And their opponents for the most part had been playing together for years. All this adds up. I would rank the international teams somewhere between the top division I college rank and the lower NBA ranks. And just as in the NBA we often see one of the worst teams inexplicably beat one of the best, a lesser team can beat another of greater talent. And there were many equalizers to the talent gap. Evenutally it had to happen sometime. But look how long it took to happen? And have we lost since?

But even team play doesn't mean that Dirk will be facing NBA level post defense when working on his post moves in international play. In fact he probably doesn't post up much there. He certainly won't face as good of defense as he will against NBA players when working on his passing and ball handling. And shooting the shorter 3, might explain why he struggles with the NBA longer 3 at the start of seasons lately.

International play can help a player develop, but I think that Dirk is past the level where he gets major benefits from international play.

Bayliss · 02-14-2004, 10:43 PM

LRB, that was a great post. And I agree with everything except one thing:

Quote:

The NBA is much more physical. International players almost always comment on this.

The NBA is much more physical within the context of the rules. But international play is more physical outside the context of the rules. In other words, the NBA protects its players from "thuggery" and cheap shots even though there is more bumping, shoving, grabbing, etc. In international play, the opponent's always go after the stars and the refs rarely protect players. There is less bumping, shoving... but there are more dirty tactics to prohibit the international stars from performing.

mavsman · 02-14-2004, 11:12 PM

Quote:

International play can help a player develop, but I think that Dirk is past the level where he gets major benefits from international play.

I'll sign this, but not much of the rest. First off, let's be sure to know what we are talking about. When I say "International Competition", I don't mean some wacky qualifying tournaments like when the US has to play Aruba to qualify for the Olympics or Germany has to face Albania to get to the Euro Championships. Dirk doesn't play these kinds of games, as at least in Europe, they are being held during the regular NBA season. He only plays in the actual tournament, when the real amateurs, the dangerous ones, are already eliminated.

Also, on his position, he's been facing NBA players like Gasol, Kirilenko, Peja, Nachbar, Okur, Turkoglu and sometimes Tsakalidis all the time. Even if they're Euros that don't play NBA defense, they're still in the NBA.

Quote:

When playing for national pride, it is much more likely to take a cheap shot that could cause serious injury

Hmm, don't know if this is true. I've seen Dirk lose a tooth and I've seen him take a couple of elbows to the face and some nasty slaps on the wrist when he had an already injured shoulder, but I've never seen any of this happen in international play.

mary · 02-14-2004, 11:28 PM

I don't doubt Dirk's sincerity, but its too easy to take the High Road on this issue when your riding someone else's dime. My big problem is not that players are allowed to compete internationally - but I do object to the fact that their contracts are guaranteed. The day will come when a franchise player suffers a career ending injury from international play - its only a matter of time.

Not only will some unlucky owner have to pay that player, but that team won't even be able to recover any cap space - and that is a damn shame.

I just can't buy the argument that there is no additional risk associated with playing in international competitions. If that is the case, then why did Raja Bell and Magloire spend their respective summers NOT playing for their home countries?

Like Cuban said, if the players only cared about being patriotic, then contracts would have no bearing on their decisions to play.

Does anyone REALLY think Dirk would still play for Germany if it meant he was risking the remainder of his multi-million dollar contract??

He may be pretty, but he's not stupid.

Edited because I not function so well.

mavsman · 02-15-2004, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: mary
I don't doubt Dirk's sincerity, but its too easy to take the High Road on this issue when your riding someone else's dime.

Okay, let's see: Dirk, Peja, Gasol, Parker, Ginobili, Allen, Bibby, Kobe, Malone, Duncan, Iverson, Kidd, J O'Neal. Those are all players that have played in international competition in 2003 or will be playing in 2004. Those are all franchise players. Do you really think they are "riding someone else's dime" or are they in fact the ones that fill their owner's pockets? Do you think the Spurs would be creating more revenue with Bell and Magloire instead of Parker and Duncan?

Quote:

Does anyone REALLY think Dirk would still play for Germany if it meant he was risking the remainder of his multi-million dollar contract??

I'm not sure, but he repeatedly said on German TV that he really doesn't know how much money he has, that he already has a thousand times more than he needs and that his dream was to become an NBA champion and to play at the Olympics.

ProudAmerican · 02-15-2004, 12:12 AM

Dirk needs to re-watch the way he played at the begining of the year and re think what he said.

I agree with Mark. He pays these guys a lot of money. He is the one who will have to answer to his paying customers (us the fans) if anything went wrong. Dirk would still get his money either way.

They need to run the NBA with out guarentee contracts. You wouldn't see so many injuries if a player didn't get paid for sitting out a game.

mary · 02-15-2004, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Okay, let's see: Dirk, Peja, Gasol, Parker, Ginobili, Allen, Bibby, Kobe, Malone, Duncan, Iverson, Kidd, J O'Neal. Those are all players that have played in international competition in 2003 or will be playing in 2004. Those are all franchise players. Do you really think they are "riding someone else's dime" or are they in fact the ones that fill their owner's pockets?

When they are playing for someone else, they are not filling their owner's pockets. If they get hurt, they still get paid, the owners lose their franchise player and all the benefits and revenue associated with HAVING that franchise player on their roster.

So, my answer is still YES. Yes, they are riding someone else's dime.

Quote:

Do you think the Spurs would be creating more revenue with Bell and Magloire instead of Parker and Duncan?

I don't even know where this question came from or how it is relevant but I'll answer it anyway. Ummm....NO.

Quote:

I'm not sure, but he repeatedly said on German TV that he really doesn't know how much money he has, that he already has a thousand times more than he needs and that his dream was to become an NBA champion and to play at the Olympics.

I don't doubt that Dirk really wants to play in the Olympics one day - it is a dream of many athletes. It doesn't change the fact that responsibility should be placed at the feet of those who choose to take the risk. If that were the case, I'd have a really hard time believing many would take that risk - I really do.

Jeremiah · 02-15-2004, 01:49 AM

I'm glad Dirk plays in int'l competition, and I think he should continue. because int'l comp is more intense is exactly why I think it's better than pickup games. He'll stay sharp. just my opinion.

OutletPass · 02-15-2004, 02:08 AM

I can certainly see both sides of this argument...but if anyone thinks that an insurance contract will cover Cuban's losses, that's just wrong.

Sure, an insurance contract can cover Dirk's future salary if he gets badly hurt...BUT...no insurance coverage can give us another Dirk in the lineup...and that's the REAl problem.

I love to see great International competition...and I don't want to take away their right to play for their country...BUT...how can you ever compensate for losing a great player...

Plainly put, when's the next time that the Mavs could draft a player who's top 6-7 in the entire world.

Since I started buying season tickets in 1980, we've had Aguirre, Blackman, and Kidd...and I'm not sure you could say that they're top 6-7...close, but not quite...that's 3 in 23 years.

You may say..."Well what's the chance of a career ending or disabling injury ? "
And I'll say "That's my point"

If there's a one in a billion chance, then insurance has to cover that...and, to me, it's not covered by just paying his salary...

twelli · 02-15-2004, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by: OutletPass

You may say..."Well what's the chance of a career ending or disabling injury ? "

I would say the chances for a career ending injury are not that high and it can happen anywhere (on a motorcyle for example) and to anyone (did Grant hill ever play for the US?)

The risk for Cuban is more in the wear and tear of offseason competition (see Divac) and how that gives you a Dirk who is not able to perform like he is one of the best in the league. If I were a season ticket holder, I would strongly support Cuban and let him know.

Maybe Dirk has handled it well so far, but Nash has clearly been tired at the end of the last few seasons in part because he played for Canada.

So again. Give the younger players a chance to play for a few years for their respective countries and after that ask them to move on and focus on the NBA.

mavsman · 02-15-2004, 10:04 AM

Quote:

When they are playing for someone else, they are not filling their owner's pockets.

You should see just how much more popular Dirk got in the German mainstream media after the great performances by him and the national team in the '01 EC and especially in the '02 WC. Judging from the number #41-jerseys you see on German kids since that time, his participation in those competitions more than filled Cubans pockets. Same goes for Gasol in Spain or Peja in Serbia. Okay, not for Yao in China, because those kids wear fakes, who could blame them.

Quote:

If they get hurt, they still get paid, the owners lose their franchise player and all the benefits and revenue associated with HAVING that franchise player on their roster

But the same holds true if they get hurt in a car or a motorcycle accident, yet they are not forbidden to drive. The difference is: Riding a motorcycle does not improve your play, playing in international competition does. Playing in Pickups (without refs?) doesn't sound any better at all.

Quote:

Do you think the Spurs would be creating more revenue with Bell and Magloire instead of Parker and Duncan?

I don't even know where this question came from or how it is relevant but I'll answer it anyway. Ummm....NO.

Yes, I'm sorry, that was poorly phrased. I'll try again: You say those players are riding their owners' dime, I disagree, because I think it's more of a give and take. Those owners profit as much of the players as vice versa. We ain't talking about some scrubs that are wanting to play for their countries, but about franchise players. Hence my example with Bell and Magloire (2 players you mentioned as being not willing to play international) vs. Duncan and Parker (2 players who did or will play international).
Some of those guys, Dirk included, are awfully proud to play for their national team. I'm absolutely positive that e.g. Sabonis would've taken the first train out of Portland if Allen had denied him to play for Lithuania. And I'm pretty sure in that case there would've been other owners (most likely more than 20) willing to give him the same contract plus the allowance to play international and I really don't like the perspective of a possible conflict between Dirk and Cuban, because Dirk's contract ends before the 2008 Olympics.

The Olympics are far too big a market for the NBA to be ignored, we won't be seeing "amateurs only" there ever again. So it comes down to individual agreements between owners and players with the result that, come contract time, those players who want to play for their countries will take into account which owner would allow them to do that.

So, in conclusion, we are talking about roughly 3 weeks (Dirk always joined the team in the last week of preparation) within a timespan of 4 and a half months. I don't buy that it wears you out if you are in good condition. Last year Dirk wasn't and he shouldn't have played, but that was an exception, not the rule. Somebody brought up Divac as an example. Well, it's obvious that your body starts to wear out if you're constantly whistling on your last pipe because you smoke like 2 packs a day for 2 decades.

edited for spelling

Chiwas · 02-15-2004, 12:50 PM

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Sure, an insurance contract can cover Dirk's future salary if he gets badly hurt...BUT...no insurance coverage can give us another Dirk in the lineup...and that's the REAl problem.

Great point.

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The Olympics are far too big a market for the NBA to be ignored, we won't be seeing "amateurs only" there ever again.

I'm affraid you're right, and it is congruent with Brown's last comments against Cuban.

dude1394 · 02-15-2004, 05:59 PM

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Originally posted by: Bayliss
Dude, the reason Dirk hasn't "showcased" anything he has learned this summer has been because Nellie doesn't utilize it from Dirk? After all, if Nellie wanted Dirk to learn some post moves, it would seem like Nellie would put Dirk in the post frequently to "hone" those skills in gametime action. But has Dirk been posting up much this year? Not much. And he has developed a hook with both hands. Now he just needs to become more confident in using that move in the post. But that will only come with repetition. But Nellie rarely uses repetition in games.

As for Dirk playing internationally. He shouldnn't play more. Vlade at 36 (who was never a "banging" center") is worn down tremendously because of it all. And when Vlade says it is grueling, I would listen.... Dirk's future is with the Mavericks. And it should stay that way unless he is traded or retires.

I guess you are right bayliss. Nellie is so stupid that he's not allowing the next kareem abdul jabbar to spend time in the post. I guess watching him in practice doesn't count for much. Dirk's low-post game is pretty much the same as last year and in fact it's been a struggle to keep him from launching either a fall-away or a 3pointer. I didn't see the last two games but I have seen all of .........2 hook shots taken by dirk this year. Big addition to his game. I also watch him take them in warmups and quite frankly he stinks at them. He may have been practicing them, but if he has it's been a pretty poor training regimen.

As far as international play, if my investment is spending an extra quarter season playing when I have to pay him and risk the consequences I'm going to gripe as well. Again the guy paying the bills has the right to gripe and the guys GETTING the money have a responsibility to listen to the guy PAYING the bills.

dude1394 · 02-15-2004, 06:09 PM

I edited out a portion that was so derogatory to bayliss [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img], but accidently edited out a suggestion.

Unfortunately it doesn't solve cubes problem but it does solve the us's problem and therefore tought beans. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] So we make the US team only be made up of NBA players who did not make the playoffs. They should be competitive I would imagine and it wouldn't add the wear and tear on the players.

cubes is messed over however because he has dirk,stevie,najera to contend with.

Bayliss · 02-15-2004, 06:22 PM

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I guess you are right bayliss. Nellie is so stupid that he's not allowing the next kareem abdul jabbar to spend time in the post. I guess watching him in practice doesn't count for much. Dirk's low-post game is pretty much the same as last year and in fact it's been a struggle to keep him from launching either a fall-away or a 3pointer. I didn't see the last two games but I have seen all of .........2 hook shots taken by dirk this year. Big addition to his game. I also watch him take them in warmups and quite frankly he stinks at them. He may have been practicing them, but if he has it's been a pretty poor training regimen.

Well, I've only see him shoot it 4 times this year. 2 were in the same game.... 2 were in separate games. 2 went in... 2 did not. But at the end of last year Dirk was in the post a lot. In fact when Dirk went on his scoring binge the last 1/4 of the season he was routinely in the post. Can you say the same for this year? And he was effective in the post last year. So why not put him there more often this year?

You cannot deny the fact that Dirk is efficient is down low. Whether it looks pretty is beside the point. He gets the job done. So when Nellie says Dirk hasn't improved in the post, is hogwash. And the reason it is hogwash is because Nellie hasn't put him in the post enough this year to evaluate that. And only through repetition will a player become great in the post.

As for his defense... he might not improved that much but Nellie is playing him at a difdferent position for the first half. Did Dirk know he was going to be our center for 90% of the first half? I seriously doubt he did. And trying to learn a new position on the fly the player will struggle for awhile. But I gaurantee you this:

Dirk will not be playing center next year for the majority of minutes.

And if that is true then that means Dirk lost a year of defensive maturity because of the coach... not the player.

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As far as international play, if my investment is spending an extra quarter season playing when I have to pay him and risk the consequences I'm going to gripe as well. Again the guy paying the bills has the right to gripe and the guys GETTING the money have a responsibility to listen to the guy PAYING the bills.

I agree.

dude1394 · 02-15-2004, 06:32 PM

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Well, I've only see him shoot it 4 times this year. 2 were in the same game.... 2 were in separate games. 2 went in... 2 did not. But at the end of last year Dirk was in the post a lot. In fact when Dirk went on his scoring binge the last 1/4 of the season he was routinely in the post. Can you say the same for this year? And he was effective in the post last year. So why not put him there more often this year?

I would AGREE that dirk and stevie played a lot of high pick and roll. That doesn't mean post to me. In fact dirks post game still lacks quite a bit IMHO. It's one of the reasons he gets his rear-end handed to him so much in there.

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You cannot deny the fact that Dirk is efficient is down low. Whether it looks pretty is beside the point. He gets the job done. So when Nellie says Dirk hasn't improved in the post, is hogwash. And the reason it is hogwash is because Nellie hasn't put him in the post enough this year to evaluate that. And only through repetition will a player become great in the post.

See above. Dirk will NEVER be a great low-post player until he becomes heavier and stronger. He does not get position worth a durn down there. If there is a bigger guy on him instead of steve's guy who is switched, he's pretty much useless. In that case he's better out on the perimeter.

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As for his defense... he might not improved that much but Nellie is playing him at a difdferent position for the first half. Did Dirk know he was going to be our center for 90% of the first half? I seriously doubt he did. And trying to learn a new position on the fly the player will struggle for awhile. But I gaurantee you this:

Dirk will not be playing center next year for the majority of minutes.

So that was because??? Raef was traded right? What's your point, should nellie have been throwing out najera (as he did) fortson (as he did) and losing games? I don't like dirk playing there either. But if you were on-board trading raef for walker then what do you have to gripe about?

[quote]
And if that is true then that means Dirk lost a year of defensive maturity because of the coach... not the player.[q/]
Good grief, dirk played two years ago predominantly as center. He currently plays whoever he matches up with better. Poor,poor dirk. His defensive (lack of) is also nellie's fault. Not his own desire, I guess.

mavsman · 02-15-2004, 06:42 PM

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Again the guy paying the bills has the right to gripe and the guys GETTING the money have a responsibility to listen to the guy PAYING the bills.

In theory, I agree as well. However, in the real world, it's more like when you're a world-class-employee, like e.g. some top-manager, marketing-guru, recording-artist or an all-star baller, you can pick where you want to work. And - equal pay provided - you might wanna work where they give you the most incentives.
I'm afraid Cuban is putting himself in a not so favorable position here when it comes to signing or re-signing international players.

Bayliss · 02-15-2004, 06:47 PM

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I would AGREE that dirk and stevie played a lot of high pick and roll. That doesn't mean post to me. In fact dirks post game still lacks quite a bit IMHO. It's one of the reasons he gets his rear-end handed to him so much in there.

And he played a lot in the post. As for him getting his rear end handed to him so much... we'll disagree.

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See above. Dirk will NEVER be a great low-post player until he becomes heavier and stronger. He does not get position worth a durn down there. If there is a bigger guy on him instead of steve's guy who is switched, he's pretty much useless. In that case he's better out on the perimeter.

Weight has nothing to do with it. McHale never had weight and was the best low post player ever.

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So that was because??? Raef was traded right? What's your point, should nellie have been throwing out najera (as he did) fortson (as he did) and losing games? I don't like dirk playing there either. But if you were on-board trading raef for walker then what do you have to gripe about?

Good grief, dirk played two years ago predominantly as center. He currently plays whoever he matches up with better. Poor,poor dirk. His defensive (lack of) is also nellie's fault. Not his own desire, I guess.

Actually I've saying Dirk should play the power forward position for the whole year. And yes if that means playing Fortson more at center and using Bradley more then so be it. And now that we have Williams there is no reason why Dirk should play center.

As for Dirk playing center 2 years ago. He never did. Bradley/Booth was our combination when Howard was here. Dirk was a forward for that time. And when Raef came Dirk was the center. Dirk has never played center until this year.

And yes, when the coach constantly changes your position then it's a little unfair to critize the players defensive productivity. Nellie is the main reason why the Mavs do not play much defense. Because Nellie wants matchups so much that he forgets to play players where they are most comfortable. Najera struggles at center. Hmmm... is that Najera's fault? NVE struggled at shooting guard last year... is that NVE's fault? Dirk's struggled at center this year... hmmm... it couldn't be the coach asking the player to defend a position he has never defended before.