Did Mark Cuban have to waive Finley? - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

Big Shot Rob · 05-20-2006, 12:47 AM

I have been reading comments by Man fans stating that Finley wasn't productive the past 2-3 years that he was playing for Dallas.

I don't understand the stuff concerning the contract. They state that Cuban is still paying Michael Finley several million dollars.

If you are going to pay a man several million dollars, why waive him? The way he is playing for the Spurs show that with reduced minutes in the regular season, he still has alot of gas in the tank for the playoffs. If he is doing this for Pop, you would think he would do it for AJ.

Tell me how the Dallas organization profitted by paying a man with the talent like Finley several million dollars (I don't know how much--what amount is Cuban paying Finley?) and then waiving him so that he could sign with any one of your several arch-rivals.

madape · 05-20-2006, 12:50 AM

Nah, Finley was allright.

We just have an owner that likes to deliver all of our good players to conference rivals for nothing in return.

Drbio · 05-20-2006, 12:54 AM

Had we kept Finely on the roster it would have cost the team over 52 million in luxury tax payments. Cuban is still paying him 3 years at 17mil or so per, but the tax relief was too large for him to ignore. That is the skinny. All other reasons that are used are bogus. Some of the other reasons that people try to use are factually based, but not related to the cut.

shaw-xx · 05-20-2006, 12:59 AM

I try to think like this: Michael Finley didn't attack the basket and didn't rebound in Dallas, but he now is doing everything in SA. He deserves to have been cut.

Drbio · 05-20-2006, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaw-xx

I try to think like this: Michael Finley didn't attack the basket and didn't rebound in Dallas, but he now is doing everything in SA. He deserves to have been cut.

Some of this is rooted in fact, but not related to the cut itself. Finley was tanking it last year. For whatever reason he is revived this year. The cut was a wake-up call. However, the reason that he was cut was because the amnesty clause was a one time offer and allowed the Mavericks to wipe off a little over 51 million dollars in luxury taxes from their operating expenses. It was a no brainer.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:07 AM

Cuban enjoy's making the Western Conference deep I guess. If he doesn't resign JET I wonder will he sign with the Suns. That will make them deeper as well.

And technically no, Cuban didn't have to release Finley. But for the second time in franchise history(see Nash) he put his pocket book in front of the team's success. He has that right. However, just know when you do things like this it can come back to bite you in the ass. But you can't argue with the success the Mavs have had without Finley and Nash. I just can't help but wonder if the team would've had the same success or may be even more with these players on the current team. I tend to credit this team's success to not only Avery but the fact that they have all played for consecutive seasons. Something that never happened when Nash and Fin were here. Not to mention the emphasis on defense. Cuban did what he had to do. If the man wants to save $51 million than he has that right. Not sure if I would've done otherwise in the same situation. But it would kill me to watch me pay for a player that plays for a contender. Let alone actually contribute and play 40+ minutes a night.

Drbio · 05-20-2006, 01:08 AM

You would have definitely done the same. It is 51 MILLION dollars.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

Some of this is rooted in fact, but not related to the cut itself. Finley was tanking it last year. For whatever reason he is revived this year. The cut was a wake-up call. However, the reason that he was cut was because the amnesty clause was a one time offer and allowed the Mavericks to wipe off a little over 51 million dollars in luxury taxes from their operating expenses. It was a no brainer.

And I think the cut also had part in reviving Fin's career. Being healthy also factor's in to it as well. I think a change of scenery was needed for both Nash and Finley.

chumdawg · 05-20-2006, 01:11 AM

I wonder about the $51MM total. When Cuban went on ESPN radio Thursday night, he said that he was paying Finley $15.5MM per year. You do the math.

But still, to answer your question, no. Cuban didn't have to waive Finley. He chose Dough Christie and a bunch of million dollars instead. Now, then, Christie is retired and Finley is burying daggers in our ass in the playoffs.

As I said, I hope it was worth it. It takes a lot of fucking up to disembowel a WCF team that has Dirk on the roster.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

You would have definitely done the same. It is 51 MILLION dollars.

Well I probably would've traded him. Easier said than done but there was the deal that was suppose to send Cassell here and for whatever reason it fell through. And I don't really look at it as 51 million. I think in the last year of the deal his contract would've been very tradeable. If the T-Wolves would've taken on Fin's contract I can't help but think that a couple of other teams would've taken it on.

Drbio · 05-20-2006, 01:15 AM

You may be right. But alas...we can't change it. I do find it hard to believe that all the rumored trades were real. I can't fathom not getting something for him.

MFFL · 05-20-2006, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

You would have definitely done the same. It is 51 MILLION dollars.

And Cuban pays $200,000 fines without blinking. $400,000 since Cuban doubles the fine to charity.

Cuban's RICH and could have paid out the money easily. What is your point exactly?

MFFL · 05-20-2006, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

I wonder about the $51MM total. When Cuban went on ESPN radio Thursday night, he said that he was paying Finley $15.5MM per year. You do the math.

According to Hoopshype

$15,937,500 this year
$17,265,625 next year
$18,593,750 the year after

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/dallas.htm

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drbio

You may be right. But alas...we can't change it. I do find it hard to believe that all the rumored trades were real. I can't fathom not getting something for him.

If Cuban was stuck on not paying the luxury tax than I can see him not giving the okay on some trades. Especially if they involved contenders. That's another thing I didn't understand about this whole ordeal. Cuban has shown his displeasure with going to a Western Conference rival. I must ask if he felt Finley couldn't contribute why do you care what team he's going to? And if you feel he can contribute than why are you cutting him? You cut him due to the luxury tax but obviously you felt he had nothing left.

Drbio · 05-20-2006, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MFFL

And Cuban pays $200,000 fines without blinking. $400,000 since Cuban doubles the fine to charity.

Cuban's RICH and could have paid out the money easily. What is your point exactly?

51 million dollars is a load of money to Bill Gates. He too would have made the cut. It was a no brainer. Add up the salaries you posted. There is a dollar for dollar penalty for the Mavericks to pay if they don't let Mike go.

He was cut for financial reasons and it was a good financial move.

dude1394 · 05-20-2006, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Well I probably would've traded him. Easier said than done but there was the deal that was suppose to send Cassell here and for whatever reason it fell through. And I don't really look at it as 51 million. I think in the last year of the deal his contract would've been very tradeable. If the T-Wolves would've taken on Fin's contract I can't help but think that a couple of other teams would've taken it on.

If we'd have traded finley we'd have had to take on another bad contract. I was kinda po'd about mike but really not anymore, it just made sense. Nash I'm still pissed about, that was a cluster.

dude1394 · 05-20-2006, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madape

Nah, Finley was allright.

We just have an owner that likes to deliver all of our good players to conference rivals for nothing in return.

Don't forget...and get more wins every year.

chumdawg · 05-20-2006, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I must ask if he felt Finley couldn't contribute why do you care what team he's going to? And if you feel he can contribute than why are you cutting him?

Co-sign.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-20-2006, 01:28 AM

I simply LOVE, I mean LOVE how so many fans, these Cuban-hating Nash/Finley apologists talk about fifty million dollars like it's fucking pocket change, even to Mark Cuban.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-20-2006, 01:30 AM

I really don't have the energy to do it right now, and I'm no good at photoshopping anyway, but if someone could photoshop Michael Finley's face over Jesus' on the cross, and post it in any one of these finley threads, I'd be greatful. And a nice touch would be to have Nash and Nellie hanging right beside him.

jleefilled · 05-20-2006, 01:32 AM

I know a Spur fan started this thread, but I just have a request for anyone who will listen. Can we start the second-guessing/bashing of Mark Cuban until after the season is finished? It really is getting tiresome for me to read the same arguments over and over after every Maverick loss. To me, when you bash the owner for his poor management, you are bashing the team. Now, if the team ends up fishing early this offseason then I'll be right there questioning what Cuban has done, and what he needs to do in the future. Just a thought.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

If we'd have traded finley we'd have had to take on another bad contract. I was kinda po'd about mike but really not anymore, it just made sense. Nash I'm still pissed about, that was a cluster.

Not necessarily. If Cassell was the guy coming in doesn't his contract end after this year? Now that I think about it I hope Cassell wasn't offered by the T-Wolves. I'd like to give Cuban more credit than that. I know Cuban would've taken Cassell had he been offered but its the deal being thrown out there.

dude1394 · 05-20-2006, 01:33 AM

Oh it's a fetish with some fans. They just can't help it.

dude1394 · 05-20-2006, 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Not necessarily. If Cassell was the guy coming in doesn't his contract end after this year? Now that I think about it I hope Cassell wasn't offered by the T-Wolves. I'd like to give Cuban more credit than that. I know Cuban would've taken Cassell had he been offered but its the deal being thrown out there.

Was cassell making 15mill/year?

chumdawg · 05-20-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I simply LOVE, I mean LOVE how so many fans, these Cuban-hating Nash/Finley apologists talk about fifty million dollars like it's fucking pocket change, even to Mark Cuban.

Quantify it, then. Tell me how much revenue the Mavs bring in, and tell me about the impact on the bottom line. YOU say it's NOT "pocket change." Support that.

Even still, Cuban gave him the papers to sign. At the time he didn't know about an escape clause. Do you realize that if there were no amnesty clause then Finley would presently be a Maverick???

But go ahead. Show me the full impact of that player contract.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

I simply LOVE, I mean LOVE how so many fans, these Cuban-hating Nash/Finley apologists talk about fifty million dollars like it's fucking pocket change, even to Mark Cuban.

Its not pocket change? Didn't Cuban give a 70 million dollar contract to a 30 year old player who puts up 5/7 off the bench? If its not pocket change excuse me but Cuban sure as hell is throwing it around like it is. You can't tell me one minute you want to save money and the next you throw it away on Doug Christie and Eric Dampier .

Drbio · 05-20-2006, 01:35 AM

Are you really asking him to prove that 51 million dollars is not significant? wtf?

Thespiralgoeson · 05-20-2006, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Not necessarily. If Cassell was the guy coming in doesn't his contract end after this year? Now that I think about it I hope Cassell wasn't offered by the T-Wolves. I'd like to give Cuban more credit than that. I know Cuban would've taken Cassell had he been offered but its the deal being thrown out there.

Dtown, the Mavericks tried desperately to trade him, but had no takers. The Pacers were the name that I heard the most, but the T-Wolves, Nuggets, Heat, Pistons, and others were mentioned as well.

If there's one thing I think the Mavs screwed up on was making known to the world that he probably would be waived, as if they were trying to prepare the fans and apologize for it. Maybe if the world was convinced that waiving Fin wasn't even considered, there might've been some offers. But that's neither here nor there.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dude1394

Was cassell making 15mill/year?

I don't know his salary but off top I doubt. They would've had to throw someone else in the deal. I forget the whole deal to be honest. Fin's contract wasn't impossible to trade. Especially if he was wiling to throw in one of your 'boys in Harris, Josh or Daniels. Perferably Daniels.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-20-2006, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

Its not pocket change? Didn't Cuban give a 70 million dollar contract to a 30 year old player who puts up 5/7 off the bench? If its not pocket change excuse me but Cuban sure as hell is throwing it around like it is. You can't tell me one minute you want to save money and the next you throw it away on Doug Christie and Eric Dampier .

Dude, it's 50 million dollars. It ain't fucking pocket change.

And I think you prove yourself to be another one of these worthless, absolutely worthless fans when you say the money is thrown away on Erick Dampier.

dude1394 · 05-20-2006, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtownsfinest

I don't know his salary but off top I doubt. They would've had to throw someone else in the deal. I forget the whole deal to be honest. Fin's contract wasn't impossible to trade. Especially if he was wiling to throw in one of your 'boys in Harris, Josh or Daniels. Perferably Daniels.

I would be shocked if the mavs wouldn't have moved mike/daniels (that doesn't seem to make sense, that's ANOTHER 5 mill or so) for cassell and kaman?

Wait...cassell was on the wolves right?

chumdawg · 05-20-2006, 01:38 AM

Let's quit throwing around $50MM as a number. The Spurs were glad to throw around $15MM+ to Finley over the same three years. So it's $35MM max. And considering the other contracts that the Mavs could have washed, it's well less than that.

All told, it's maybe $20MM that Cuban saved on Finley. And maybe a second-round exit that he bought with it.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

Dtown, the Mavericks tried desperately to trade him, but had no takers. The Pacers were the name that I heard the most, but the T-Wolves, Nuggets, Heat, Pistons, and others were mentioned as well.

If there's one thing I think the Mavs screwed up on was making known to the world that he probably would be waived, as if they were trying to prepare the fans and apologize for it. Maybe if the world was convinced that waiving Fin wasn't even considered, there might've been some offers. But that's neither here nor there.

Good point that I forgot about. The Mavs showed their cards to the NBA and if there were deals on the table they were definately out the window when it was rumored the Mavs would release Finley.

nashtymavsfan13 · 05-20-2006, 01:39 AM

unfortunatley, it had to be done, and it WAS a good financial move. We gotta resign Dirk and Jho sometime.

rabbitproof · 05-20-2006, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jleefilled

I know a Spur fan started this thread, but I just have a request for anyone who will listen. Can we start the second-guessing/bashing of Mark Cuban until after the season is finished? It really is getting tiresome for me to read the same arguments over and over after every Maverick loss. To me, when you bash the owner for his poor management, you are bashing the team. Now, if the team ends up fishing early this offseason then I'll be right there questioning what Cuban has done, and what he needs to do in the future. Just a thought.

Holy Fairness and Common Sense, Batman!!

THANK YOU, JLEEFILLED. Let's rip on management in the offseason... if we have to. Why so anxious, friends?

Thespiralgoeson · 05-20-2006, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chumdawg

Let's quit throwing around $50MM as a number. The Spurs were glad to throw around $15MM+ to Finley over the same three years. So it's $35MM max. And considering the other contracts that the Mavs could have washed, it's well less than that.

All told, it's maybe $20MM that Cuban saved on Finley. And maybe a second-round exit that he bought with it.

The Spurs weren't in luxury tax hell, the Mavs are.

Also, I think it should be very clear (although it's not for some reason) that it was a basketball decision as well. As if Fin's age and production didn't factor into the equation... Not to mention that there seemed to be a growing rift between Fin and AJ.

Seriously, I think that was the single biggest reason for Finley leaving. It seemed painfully obvious last season that the team wasn't big enough for both Finley and Stackhouse. It was one or the other, and Stack was and still is AJ's man.

Now I'm not defending that decision because I'll take Finley over Stackhouse any day of the week, but I'm just sick and tired of all this "Mark Cuban doesn't care about winning" bullshit.

Thespiralgoeson · 05-20-2006, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

We gotta resign Dirk and Jho sometime.

Bingo bango.

I'm still very concerned that we more than likely won't be able to keep both Josh and Terry.

chumdawg · 05-20-2006, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thespiralgoeson

The Spurs weren't in luxury tax hell, the Mavs are.

Also, I think it should be very clear (although it's not for some reason) that it was a basketball decision as well. As if Fin's age and production didn't factor into the equation... Not to mention that there seemed to be a growing rift between Fin and AJ.

Seriously, I think that was the single biggest reason for Finley leaving. It seemed painfully obvious last season that the team wasn't big enough for both Finley and Stackhouse. It was one or the other, and Stack was and still is AJ's man.

Now I'm not defending that decision because I'll take Finley over Stackhouse any day of the week, but I'm just sick and tired of all this "Mark Cuban doesn't care about winning" bullshit.

So at this stage in his career AJ doesn't have the wherewithal to deal with a veteran player? I can agree with that. Doesn't make the whole SNAFU any more palatable, as you recognize.

G-Man · 05-20-2006, 01:58 AM

If I'm spending 15 million of cuban's dollars, I think I could find more effective players to spend it on than Mike.

Dtownsfinest · 05-20-2006, 02:00 AM

We gotta resign Dirk and J-Ho? Didn't Dirk sign his contract the same year as Finley or the year after? As far as J-Ho goes after we let KVH walk Cuban will not be losing a thing as far as money goes.