2017 NBA Draft

[Bryan_Wilson]

I think he has a chance to be a good player but I can't imagine a worse situation for a kid from Germany who already gets compared to Dirk than to be drafted to Dallas and be in Dirk's shadow.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by Thebo

That comparison was made in July of '15. He has not done anything to justify being picked higher than 15. If he can not be a starter in a top team in Europe, why would any NBA team pick him as potential starter?

Didn't like the kid when his name started to come up more often last year. I also think it's a little disrespectful to Dirk as a comparison. He's arguably the best euro player to ever play in the NBA, so it's usually a cop out comp for draft "experts" - my point is, I didn't mind when Porzingis was compared to Dirk, since I see the talent and similarities. But this kid is no where close to how good Dirk was in those international games as a teen.

[BPo001]

Originally Posted by saclare

Didn't like the kid when his name started to come up more often last year. I also think it's a little disrespectful to Dirk as a comparison. He's arguably the best euro player to ever play in the NBA, so it's usually a cop out comp for draft "experts" - my point is, I didn't mind when Porzingis was compared to Dirk, since I see the talent and similarities. But this kid is no where close to how good Dirk was in those international games as a teen.

Who is arguing that Dirk isn't the greatest Euro player ever? He is and it's not even close. He's a top 20 player all time.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by BPo001

Who is arguing that Dirk isn't the greatest Euro player ever? He is and it's not even close. He's a top 20 player all time.

I still hear pundits bring up Sabonis, Gasol, and even Ginobili at times. For what it's worth, I agree, Dirk is the greatest Euro to play. That's what led to my comment about the easy comp for some of these guys to throw out. Elsewhere I said it was a slight to Dirk if anything since this kid doesn't even start on his current Euro team while Dirk had a way more impressive resume at the same age.

[EricaLubarsky]

Only players who are even close are Marc Gasol and Sabonis. Dirk is better than both.

Dirk currently is the best Euro player of all time without a doubt.

But back to Hartenstein: he may be decent eventually, but dude is averaging 2.7mpg in Euroleague play and only getting 0points, 0.5 rebounds, and 1 foul. He's at least 3-4 years off of even making a difference in the NBA and even then it's a gamble. Big potential payoff, but you're going to have to wait years and even then your chances are higher than not that he'll be a complete flop like Bargnani. I'd take him at 31, but taking him top 15 is madness.

[EricaLubarsky]

[Bryan_Wilson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IdtzEyvxII

I watched this game, Washington is so bad. When he committed to Washington were they expected to be this bad? Or did they have some guys leave?

Edit- I will add though that sometimes Fultz goes too slow for me. Like when we played the Lakers Reggie Miller mentioned how Russell sometimes just seems a little lazy. Well I think I see some of that with Fultz. It looks like he's just on cruise control, which I have no problem when in certain situations. But during this game I thought more than a few times Fultz could have been aggressive and turned up the gear but he just didn't. And it usually ended in a missed shot or worse.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IdtzEyvxII

I watched this game, Washington is so bad. When he committed to Washington were they expected to be this bad? Or did they have some guys leave?

Edit- I will add though that sometimes Fultz goes too slow for me. Like when we played the Lakers Reggie Miller mentioned how Russell sometimes just seems a little lazy. Well I think I see some of that with Fultz. It looks like he's just on cruise control, which I have no problem when in certain situations. But during this game I thought more than a few times Fultz could have been aggressive and turned up the gear but he just didn't. And it usually ended in a missed shot or worse.

I watched the Washington/Gonzaga game a while back and got the same impression with Fultz. I've read some comparisons to Westbrook but I didn't see any of the same motor in Fultz as in Westbrook. Fultz does look smooth and I can see the Harden comparison but not Westbrook. However that was a small sample size for me so it's hard to tell.
Just interesting you noticed the same thing.

[MavzMan]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IdtzEyvxII

I don't really see a RWB style of player from him other than just body type/size. His play style is much more inline with a Dwayne Wade. He's very smooth and doesn't seem to rush anything while at the same time getting into good position.

[mac222b]

Originally Posted by Bryan_Wilson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IdtzEyvxII

I watched this game, Washington is so bad. When he committed to Washington were they expected to be this bad? Or did they have some guys leave?

Edit- I will add though that sometimes Fultz goes too slow for me. Like when we played the Lakers Reggie Miller mentioned how Russell sometimes just seems a little lazy. Well I think I see some of that with Fultz. It looks like he's just on cruise control, which I have no problem when in certain situations. But during this game I thought more than a few times Fultz could have been aggressive and turned up the gear but he just didn't. And it usually ended in a missed shot or worse.

Glad you mentioned this. It's some of what made me prefer Smith on an admittedly cursory scouting glance. Smith has some "edge" to him. Also Fultz doesn't seem to be the athlete Smith is. Less explosion and bounce. Harden is a decent comp for Fultz assuming he can improve his outside stroke. And flop.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by mac222b

Glad you mentioned this. It's some of what made me prefer Smith on an admittedly cursory scouting glance. Smith has some "edge" to him. Also Fultz doesn't seem to be the athlete Smith is. Less explosion and bounce. Harden is a decent comp for Fultz assuming he can improve his outside stroke. And flop.

Can't link from work computer but Fultz posted a nice view into his athleticism on his Instagram @markellefultz

[Underdog]

Originally Posted by saclare

Can't link from work computer but Fultz posted a nice view into his athleticism on his Instagram @markellefultz

Pretty sure he ran up the wall, but still impressive...

[EricaLubarsky]

I now think that there is a 0% chance we get Fultz. He's going in the top three and we aren't going to draft above 8-10. There are some truly awful teams out there tanking really hard. We're just not going to match that level of utter meltdown unless we actually tried and we're not going to consciously tank. I'd put our chances at making the playoffs at 50/50, but our chances of getting the top three picks at zero.

[saclare]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

I now think that there is a 0% chance we get Fultz. He's going in the top three and we aren't going to draft above 8-10. There are some truly awful teams out there tanking really hard. We're just not going to match that level of utter meltdown unless we actually tried and we're not going to consciously tank. I'd put our chances at making the playoffs at 50/50, but our chances of getting the top three picks at zero.

Too many things would have to go wrong (or right?) for us to get back into the top 5 pick range. Barea would have to stay injured, Bogut and Williams traded, Harris traded/resting/hurt, and I would never want Dirk hurt. I'd rather see him play 15-20 mins a night and come back fresh for one more year.

I think the talent level and coaching is better than that of the other teams dropping in standings. That coupled with this soft January schedule will continue to drift up standings and away from the likes of 76ers, Nets, Suns, Timberwolves, etc.

Hope isn't lost though. We are merely 2 games from that last spot...

[hayth.james.g]

Originally Posted by saclare

Too many things would have to go wrong (or right?) for us to get back into the top 5 pick range. Barea would have to stay injured, Bogut and Williams traded, Harris traded/resting/hurt, and I would never want Dirk hurt. I'd rather see him play 15-20 mins a night and come back fresh for one more year.

I think the talent level and coaching is better than that of the other teams dropping in standings. That coupled with this soft January schedule will continue to drift up standings and away from the likes of 76ers, Nets, Suns, Timberwolves, etc.

Hope isn't lost though. We are merely 2 games from that last spot...

It's actually pretty simple. If they trade Bogut and Dwill, we have a legit shot at staying inside the top 6-8 picks. This wouod give us a fair chance at picking Smith or Ball.

I will be absolutely disappointed if we don't make that trade. It makes no sense to the future of our franchise to not focus on the draft in a year where the draft has this kind of talent

[saclare]

I think Jarret Allen will work his way up to the 10-12 range. He's got the height but would need to add size to his frame. Saw him flash some post moves and is constantly around the ball on rebounds. Blocks shots and provides rim protection. Haven't really seen a range for his jumpshot, but witnessed an old school lane crossing baby hook that was sweet. With this draft being guard and wing heavy, one of these bigs has to see his draft stock rise, no?

[Underdog]

@KirkSeriousFace: Chad Ford has the Mavs selecting Frank Ntilikina. NYT did a profile of him yesterday http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/sp...l%20Newsletter


Ford's most recent mock (2 days ago):

1. Philadelphia 76ers* - Markelle Fultz
2. Boston Celtics (via Nets)* - Lonzo Ball
3. Phoenix Suns - Josh Jackson
4. Philadelphia 76ers (via Lakers)* - Malik Monk
5. Miami Heat - Dennis Smith
6. Dallas Mavericks - Frank Ntilikina
7. Orlando Magic - Jayson Tatum
8. Minnesota Timberwolves - Harry Giles
9. New Orleans Pelicans - Jonathan Isaac
10. Sacramento Kings* - De'Aaron Fox
11. Denver Nuggets - Miles Bridges
12. New York Knicks - OG Anunoby
13. Indiana Pacers - Lauri Markkanen
14. Chicago Bulls - Terrance Ferguson

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by Underdog

@KirkSeriousFace: Chad Ford has the Mavs selecting Frank Ntilikina. NYT did a profile of him yesterday http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/sp...l%20Newsletter


Ford's most recent mock (2 days ago):

1. Philadelphia 76ers* - Markelle Fultz
2. Boston Celtics (via Nets)* - Lonzo Ball
3. Phoenix Suns - Josh Jackson
4. Philadelphia 76ers (via Lakers)* - Malik Monk
5. Miami Heat - Dennis Smith
6. Dallas Mavericks - Frank Ntilikina
7. Orlando Magic - Jayson Tatum
8. Minnesota Timberwolves - Harry Giles
9. New Orleans Pelicans - Jonathan Isaac
10. Sacramento Kings* - De'Aaron Fox
11. Denver Nuggets - Miles Bridges
12. New York Knicks - OG Anunoby
13. Indiana Pacers - Lauri Markkanen
14. Chicago Bulls - Terrance Ferguson

Oh yay, another euro averaging basically no stats who will magically become a star

3.5ppg, 1.4rpg, 0.5 assists

Per 36? Still pretty low
9.5pts, 3.8reb, 1.3ast

But he'll become our PG of the future?

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Oh yay, another euro averaging basically no stats who will magically become a star

3.5ppg, 1.4rpg, 0.5 assists

Per 36? Still pretty low
9.5pts, 3.8reb, 1.3ast

But he'll become our PG of the future?

He is this year's Giannis. Giannis didn't have very good stats for the greek league, but he certainly turned it on in the NBA. Of course, being a freak athlete and ball handler helped things move along.

These types of players will always be high risk, high reward types. Good news is that Frank is only 18, so I don't see why he couldn't groomed since he seems to have the physical tools to make it at the next level.

[EricaLubarsky]

More I see of him, the more he grows on me. Some strong performances in U-16 and two U-18 leagues, but still hasn't proven much and certainly looks more like a SG or shoot-first PG than a floor general. He's probably 3-5 years from contributing, which isn't great for Barnes and Matthews' timelines, but still interesting.

[BPo001]

I'll be a little upset if Dennis Smith Jr gets drafted 1 pick before us.

[EricaLubarsky]

Best kids
Fultz
Smith
Ntilinka (?)

Biggest busts
Ball
Fox

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

Best kids
Fultz
Smith
Ntilinka (?)

Biggest busts
Ball
Fox

Ntilinka won't be 19 until July 28. Don't players have to be 19 before the draft?

He is still intriguing and looks pretty smooth but athletic and quick. I just have visions of Roddy B but at least he has a little more size and could be groomed as a SG if PG doesn't work out.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Ntilinka won't be 19 until July 28. Don't players have to be 19 before the draft?

He is still intriguing and looks pretty smooth but athletic and quick. I just have visions of Roddy B but at least he has a little more size and could be groomed as a SG if PG doesn't work out.

"Eligibility: Player must be 19 years old during draft calendar year, and at least one season has passed since graduation of high school" and "An American player who signs a contract and plays for an international team is automatically eligible by age of 19"

He's both played professionally in Europe and will turn 19 by December 31st, 2017, so he's eligible.

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

"Eligibility: Player must be 19 years old during draft calendar year, and at least one season has passed since graduation of high school" and "An American player who signs a contract and plays for an international team is automatically eligible by age of 19"

He's both played professionally in Europe and will turn 19 by December 31st, 2017, so he's eligible.

Ah...cool thanks!

I think we could do worse....I kinda like his game.

[Bryan_Wilson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCUHKhywGJ8

[MavzMan]

Yes, I have to admit that his aggressive attitude was much more than what I've seen of Fultz. He's got the CP3 look/playstyle and doesn't mind the contact. That's encouraging.

[tap2390]

Originally Posted by MavzMan

Yes, I have to admit that his aggressive attitude was much more than what I've seen of Fultz. He's got the CP3 look/playstyle and doesn't mind the contact. That's encouraging.

Smith definitely looks more explosive/ aggressive, but bear in mind Fultz is significantly longer. Smith has a 6'3'' wingspan, Fultz 6'9''.


Less talked about by us as a prospect is Jayson Tatum on the loaded Duke team. He's averaging 16/7/2 on 42/26/84 shooting. The thing that stands out to me is his excellent free throw percentage and his defense (two blocks & two steals a game).

[Bryan_Wilson]

Originally Posted by tap2390

Smith definitely looks more explosive/ aggressive, but bear in mind Fultz is significantly longer. Smith has a 6'3'' wingspan, Fultz 6'9''.


Less talked about by us as a prospect is Jayson Tatum on the loaded Duke team. He's averaging 16/7/2 on 42/26/84 shooting. The thing that stands out to me is his excellent free throw percentage and his defense (two blocks & two steals a game).

My only concern with Tatum is he gets his points in the same spots as Barnes does. From what little I've seen of him anyway. I'd take him of course I'd just be slightly concerned with how well they would play together going forward.

[hayth.james.g]

Does anyone else see some Kobe in Markelle Fultz?

[Bryan_Wilson]

Duke got spanked. Harry Giles still isn't healthy and he looks like it's going to be a while till he looks like that top 3 type of talent, maybe he falls more than ppl think at this rate. A while back someone brought up Allen, who I can't stand. But man.... Kennard is really growing on me. Not for a top 10 pick obviously but I really wouldn't mind if he falls to the end of the first and we can move up to grab him or better yet just get him in the 2nd depending what we get in the first. He just plays basketball the right way to me. He's not flashy, prolly not a real high ceiling, but he just makes the right decisions and takes good shots. I've seen him projected all over the map from 15-20 to 35-40. But I've seen enough good playmaking to convince me he can be a combo guard in RC's offense.

[GermanStandard]

Even the Mavs cant ruin the next Draft. This and next years Draft are historically deep. As deep as the early 90's Drafts.

Fultz, Fox, Josh Jackson, Smith, Tatum even Giles or Isaac. The Mavs cant ruin this Draft.

Its a perfect Scenario to go into a 2-year short rebuild phase. We can develop our own Youngsters and add two Franchise Players over the next two years while Dirk can hunt some Records and give us some Highlights.

Lets just hope we stay on this Tank Train and wont ruin it mortgaging the future before the Trade Deadline for some Vets who may bring us out a Top5 Draft Spot.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by GermanStandard

Even the Mavs cant ruin the next Draft. This and next years Draft are historically deep. As deep as the early 90's Drafts.

It's ALWAYS possible to mess up a draft.

1998 was perhaps one of the deepest drafts in years and it produced allstars like Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis, as well as a dozen other semi-stars.

The first three picks? Olowakandi, Bibby, and LaFrentz.

Bibby and LaFrentz were borderline stars and solid role players. Olowkandi was one of the biggest busts in NBA draft history.

[DevinHarriswillstart]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

It's ALWAYS possible to mess up a draft.

1998 was perhaps one of the deepest drafts in years and it produced allstars like Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis, as well as a dozen other semi-stars.

The first three picks? Olowakandi, Bibby, and LaFrentz.

Bibby and LaFrentz were borderline stars and solid role players. Olowkandi was one of the biggest busts in NBA draft history.

Yep, and people can mistakenly overlook "weak" drafts like the 2013 one that gave us The Greek Freak, Gobert, Schroder, CJ Mcollum, Steve Adams...all of those picks were 10 and up...

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by DevinHarriswillstart

Yep, and people can mistakenly overlook "weak" drafts like the 2013 one that gave us The Greek Freak, Gobert, Schroder, CJ Mcollum, Steve Adams...all of those picks were 10 and up...

WE know that. Does the Mavs FO know that?

[rimrocker]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

It's ALWAYS possible to mess up a draft.

1998 was perhaps one of the deepest drafts in years and it produced allstars like Vince Carter, Dirk Nowitzki, Paul Pierce, Antawn Jamison, Rashard Lewis, as well as a dozen other semi-stars.

The first three picks? Olowakandi, Bibby, and LaFrentz.

Bibby and LaFrentz were borderline stars and solid role players. Olowkandi was one of the biggest busts in NBA draft history.

Which begs the question....who could be the biggest bust in this year's draft?
Difficult to say but we simply cannot miss on this one or we're in deep crap.
As much of a Jayhawk fan that I am, I'd still say stay away from Jackson.

[EricaLubarsky]

Originally Posted by rimrocker

Which begs the question....who could be the biggest bust in this year's draft?
Difficult to say but we simply cannot miss on this one or we're in deep crap.
As much of a Jayhawk fan that I am, I'd still say stay away from Jackson.

My list from the eye test?

Risky moves
Ball - the next Kendall Marshal/MCW. Smart, quick, good size. Offense won't transfer to the NBA. Love guys who are just pure distributors, but you have to be able to keep an offense honest if you want to be a Nash/Maravich

Josh Jackson - offense is extremely limited. Athleticism won't be so noticeable at the next level. Fundamentals are flawed.

De'aaron Fox - May really struggle with offense. He'll either be Westbrook or he'll be one of a huge list of athletic players without a jump shot who wash out. He's fierce, but his offensive fundamentals are lacking. His jumper is not only inconsistent, but the mechanics of it are as well. Maybe that makes it more malleable. It just worries me that he doesn't have any consistent mechanics

Harry Giles - Ok, so we may not even be looking at him because he's basically Barnes, but he's still pretty far from contributing. He looks like Rashard Lewis but way more raw than even Lewis was at that point of his career and lightyears behind KG even coming out of high school

Moves I like

Fultz - has fluidity and versatility. Scoring is just something you either can struggle with or not. He just doesn't struggle. I worry about his motor, but his BBIQ is really high. He will contribute 17ppg/6apg his first season

Smith - Dude has a complete game. He's another Williams/Paul. He's a leader. He can score. He can run an offense. Excellent motor.

Monk - Dude is a young Jason Terry. He's a SG in the body of a big PG, but he just hits shots. You can't fake that.

Williams - love his game, but he's so much like Brandon Bass. He'll find success in the NBA, but he's not worth a lottery pick. 20-30, he'll be a steal.

Adebayo - same as Williams. I adore his game. He's a Tristan Thompson/Gorgiu Dieng type. He'll be in the league in 5-7 years. He's just not a great value in the lottery, but if we can pick him up with a later pick, I'd love him.

Ferguson - Could be really nice behind Matthews or as a replacement. Love his game.

Bolden - Will take 2-3 years to be decent and even more to be great, but he'll be the next big center.

[GermanStandard]

Fultz is the real deal and will go #1.

I gladly pick Smith.

I also like Ball i think he has a higher ceiling than MCW but he also has bust potential.

Also like that finnish guy Markkanen if we want to find Dirks replacement. Depends on when we draft.

[hayth.james.g]

Originally Posted by EricaLubarsky

My list from the eye test?

Risky moves
Ball - the next Kendall Marshal/MCW. Smart, quick, good size. Offense won't transfer to the NBA. Love guys who are just pure distributors, but you have to be able to keep an offense honest if you want to be a Nash/Maravich

Josh Jackson - offense is extremely limited. Athleticism won't be so noticeable at the next level. Fundamentals are flawed.

De'aaron Fox - May really struggle with offense. He'll either be Westbrook or he'll be one of a huge list of athletic players without a jump shot who wash out. He's fierce, but his offensive fundamentals are lacking. His jumper is not only inconsistent, but the mechanics of it are as well. Maybe that makes it more malleable. It just worries me that he doesn't have any consistent mechanics

Harry Giles - Ok, so we may not even be looking at him because he's basically Barnes, but he's still pretty far from contributing. He looks like Rashard Lewis but way more raw than even Lewis was at that point of his career and lightyears behind KG even coming out of high school

Moves I like

Fultz - has fluidity and versatility. Scoring is just something you either can struggle with or not. He just doesn't struggle. I worry about his motor, but his BBIQ is really high. He will contribute 17ppg/6apg his first season

Smith - Dude has a complete game. He's another Williams/Paul. He's a leader. He can score. He can run an offense. Excellent motor.

Monk - Dude is a young Jason Terry. He's a SG in the body of a big PG, but he just hits shots. You can't fake that.

Williams - love his game, but he's so much like Brandon Bass. He'll find success in the NBA, but he's not worth a lottery pick. 20-30, he'll be a steal.

Adebayo - same as Williams. I adore his game. He's a Tristan Thompson/Gorgiu Dieng type. He'll be in the league in 5-7 years. He's just not a great value in the lottery, but if we can pick him up with a later pick, I'd love him.

Ferguson - Could be really nice behind Matthews or as a replacement. Love his game.

Bolden - Will take 2-3 years to be decent and even more to be great, but he'll be the next big center.

Josh Jackson = Josh Smith imo.

[Thebo]

I like Markkanen but problem with drafting him is - Barnes and Dirk do not fit that well together right now. Why would Barnes and Markkanen fit? Markkanen fits so well with size and skills to get same plays that Dirk and Barnes are getting right now. Rick would have to invent new plays for Barnes where he plays small forward.