Skip Bayliss has an interesting take on the MVP Award - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsX · 01-11-2007, 04:12 PM

actually, i have no idea what im talking about.

nashtymavsfan13 · 01-11-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

I love Woody Paige. He just does dumb stuff to be funny, and it works for him. He actually knows what he's talking about if you actually listen to his points.

Yeah, I actually like Woody Paige also. He's very funny and he actually does make some solid arguments.

nashtymavsfan13 · 01-11-2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

the funny thing about this is that if nash has ever deserved an mvp it would be this year... He is having a career year(he still doesnt deserve it though...)

And that's why he unfortunately might get in again...

FINtastic · 01-11-2007, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nashtymavsfan13

And that's why he unfortunately might get in again...

Yeah, I can see that happening because the argument last year was "Well he won the MVP last year, and he's playing better this year so we have to give it to him again!"

Five-ofan · 01-11-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Yeah, I can see that happening because the argument last year was "Well he won the MVP last year, and he's playing better this year so we have to give it to him again!"

which is funny because the same people argue that previous years should have nothing to do with it when the 3 consecutive mvp thing is brought up. I actually think this thinking is going to cost Lebron any shot at the mvp this year. 26 6 and 6 is awesome BUT its such a step down from 30 7 and 6 that if they didnt give it to him last year, its hard to give it to him this year.

StackAttack · 01-11-2007, 06:30 PM

I don't think he deserved it last year, but this year...I wouldn't have much of an argument against it.

nashtymavsfan13 · 01-11-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FINtastic

Yeah, I can see that happening because the argument last year was "Well he won the MVP last year, and he's playing better this year so we have to give it to him again!"

Yeah, that's the main argument being made by all the media guys when they pick their MVP so far (like NBA.com, and Steve Kerr on Yahoo etc.)

He definetly is playing better than last year, and deserves it more than last year. I wouldn't have a problem with him winning it this year if he hadn't won last year, but last year was just so ridirkulous and the thought of him being in the type of company like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson by winning three straight is also ridirkulous.

birdsanctuary · 01-11-2007, 08:23 PM

If Nashy voted for MVP, it would be Dirk...

Forum Closed!

V2M · 01-11-2007, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WurzburgBorn

Dirk was so obviously the MVP last season, that I'm not even going to bother making an argument this season. It doesn't matter anymore. Nash is Eric Snow compared to Dirk. Lebron James and Kobe do NOT make their teams better the way that Dirk does.

Word

nashtymavsfan13 · 01-11-2007, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by birdsanctuary

If Nashy voted for MVP, it would be Dirk...

Forum Closed!

Haha

I'm still biased though cuz Dirk's my favorite player and Nash is second, but Dirk definetly is more deserving.

Xylus · 01-12-2007, 01:43 AM

I think the main reason you guys are so opposed to Nash getting the MVP this year is because he's already won the award twice in a row. If Nash hadn't won in either of those years, I don't think this would be such an issue.

Nash may not be leading the league in scoring or rebounding or steals, but he still drives his team better than anyone in the league. He averages 20 points and 11 assists, which are amazing stats for anyone, and the Suns are 27-8. Looking at this issue without thinking about past years, Nash is easily an MVP frontrunner. You could argue that he's not THE frontrunner right now, but he's Top 3, at least.

I agree with you guys, though, that Dirk probably should have won it last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flacolaco

Enjoy your regular season success.

All the best,

-Mav fans

Back at ya!

We'll be seein' you in the WCF.

dirno2000 · 01-12-2007, 01:48 AM

Why is he easily the frontrunner when Dallas is 28-8?

Dirk is just as valuable to his team and to this point Dirk's team is better. Even if Nash didn't win it last year, he's not the clear frontrunner. He's a legitimate candidate but that's it.

Xylus · 01-12-2007, 01:49 AM

You don't have to be on the team with the best record in order to win MVP... I was just using that stat to show how successful the Suns have been.

It's also more than just stats... Arguably, Nash hasn't had the best stats in the league the past two years. It's the way he plays, how efficiently he gets things done. The guy is shooting 53% from the field, 51% on 3FG, 89% from the FT line. He's the best distributor in the game. He's the most competent shooter (which those stats show) in the game. He's been clutch all this season.

As a Suns fan, I get to watch this guy every game and I get to see just how much his presence impacts the team. That's not to take anything away from Kobe or Dirk...but to say Nash isn't right up there with those two guys is just naive.

One more thing...Dallas has a better record, sure. But 2 games ago, Dallas was 27-8. What is Phoenix now? 27-8. Seems like the two teams are right on par with each other record-wise.

dirno2000 · 01-12-2007, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylus

You don't have to be on the team with the best record in order to win MVP... I was just using that stat to show how successful the Suns have been.

It's also more than just stats... Arguably, Nash hasn't had the best stats in the league the past two years. It's the way he plays, how efficiently he gets things done. The guy is shooting 53% from the field, 51% on 3FG, 89% from the FT line. He's the best distributor in the game. He's the most competent shooter (which those stats show) in the game. He's been clutch all this season.

As a Suns fan, I get to watch this guy every game and I get to see just how much his presence impacts the team. That's not to take anything away from Kobe or Dirk...but to say Nash isn't right up there with those two guys is just naive.

One more thing...Dallas has a better record, sure. But 2 games ago, Dallas was 27-8. What is Phoenix now? 27-8. Seems like the two teams are right on par with each other record-wise.

No, but traditionally it helps. At least it did until last year when the media deviated from the way they normally vote and gave it to Nash because it was a good story.

Nash has been clutch this year (as opposed to last year) but so has Dirk. You saw that first hand a couple of weeks ago. Then he turned around and did it to the Spurs. Dirk has been clutch against better teams. Even the most die hard Suns fan should be able to admit that.

As far as efficiency, Dirk has a higher PER (player efficiency rating) and a higher +/- than Nash, further proving that he’s just as valuable to his team as Nash is to his.

Quote:

One more thing...Dallas has a better record, sure. But 2 games ago, Dallas was 27-8. What is Phoenix now? 27-8. Seems like the two teams are right on par with each other record-wise.

Ture but we've beat the Suns twice head up. We've also knocked off Utah and the Spurs, something the Suns have been unable to do.

Xylus · 01-12-2007, 02:17 AM

Can't deny that the Mavs have beaten the Suns twice this year. Generally, you don't use head-to-head matchups, though, to determine a tiebreaker between two players. Plus, the Mavs beat the Suns in the first two matchups last season, but the Suns won the next two. Hypothetically, that same thing could happen this season.

The PER and +/- stats are good ones. Let's look at a few others: Dirk averaged 26.6 pts and 9.0 reb last season. This season he's averaging 23.9 and 9.3, so he's actually scoring at a lower clip (minus 2-and-a-half points) while rebounding slightly more. Meanwhile, Nash is scoring more and dishing more (18.8 pts to 20.1 pts this season, 10.5 ast to 11.0 ast).

Sure seems like Dirk and Nash are both worthy contenders. The only difference is that you're a Mavs fan and I'm a Suns fan.

dirno2000 · 01-12-2007, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Generally, you don't use head-to-head matchups, though, to determine a tiebreaker between two players.

I agree. I'm just backing up my claim that, to this point, the Mavs have been the better team.

Quote:

The PER and +/- stats are good ones. Let's look at a few others: Dirk averaged 26.6 pts and 9.0 reb last season. This season he's averaging 23.9 and 9.3, so he's actually scoring at a lower clip (minus 2-and-a-half points) while rebounding slightly more. Meanwhile, Nash is scoring more and dishing more (18.8 pts to 20.1 pts this season, 10.5 ast to 11.0 ast).

Yes, Dirk's numbers are down year over year but that really shouldn't matter.

My point is that, even when you take out the bias against, Nash due to him winning it the past two years, Dirk's current year is as good as or better than Nash's.

But as I said earlier, unlike last year I think Nash is a legitimate candidate.

Stranger · 01-12-2007, 02:52 AM

Michael Jordan never won three consecutive MVPs. I think that may stick in the craw of some voters. But then again, I never thought he would win the second one.

nashtymavsfan13 · 01-12-2007, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylus

Can't deny that the Mavs have beaten the Suns twice this year. Generally, you don't use head-to-head matchups, though, to determine a tiebreaker between two players. Plus, the Mavs beat the Suns in the first two matchups last season, but the Suns won the next two. Hypothetically, that same thing could happen this season.

The PER and +/- stats are good ones. Let's look at a few others: Dirk averaged 26.6 pts and 9.0 reb last season. This season he's averaging 23.9 and 9.3, so he's actually scoring at a lower clip (minus 2-and-a-half points) while rebounding slightly more. Meanwhile, Nash is scoring more and dishing more (18.8 pts to 20.1 pts this season, 10.5 ast to 11.0 ast).

Sure seems like Dirk and Nash are both worthy contenders. The only difference is that you're a Mavs fan and I'm a Suns fan.

I'm a Mavs fan, but I'm also a big Steve Nash fan (notice my username). I still have some bias though because Dirk is my favorite player, but Nashty is a clear second. The records match up pretty well, but the Mavs have the better one along with beating the Suns twice gives Dirk the nod in that department. The PER and +/- stats are very important ones and Dirk is better in that. You pointed out Dirk's scoring dropping this year, and the reason for that is he's taking 3.2 less shots a game. To have your scoring go down only 2.5 points while taking 3.2 less shots a game again shows very good efficiency. You pointed out Nash's %'s, Dirk's are very good as well at 50% FG (and shooting more per game), 40% 3's, and 90% from the line.

Both Dirk and Nash are very worthy candidates and two of the four real contenders for the MVP (Kobe and Boozer being the others with Lebron also having a good case). Nash is certainly more deserving than last year, but the fact that he's won it twice in a row and has 2 All-Star teammates really hurts that argument. That being said, Dirk fully deserves the award for again stepping up his game statwise, but has also become an even better teammate while leading his team to the best record in the league. Dirk SHOULD win it, but right now it doesn't look fully likely that he WILL win it.

What should have happened though was Dirk should have won it last year and Nash should win it this year. Too bad the voters screwed up. Now they should make up for it, and give it to Dirk because he again has just as strong a case, if not more strong a case than Nashty. Unfortunately I don't see that happening. My guess is Nashty will win it for the third year in a row due to the pathetic "Well his numbers were better than last year and he won it last year, so he deserves it agian" argument. Nash winning it last year was a joke, thus his three in a row will also be a joke (as much as it hurts me to say it).

Good luck to your Suns the rest of the season (I don't really mean that

) and to Steve Nash (I do mean that

) Even if Dirk might not be winning the MVP award this season again due to terrible voting by the voters, he will be the one holding up the trophy that really matters at the end of the season.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylus

He averages 20 points and 11 assists, which are amazing stats for anyone, and the Suns are 27-8. Looking at this issue without thinking about past years, Nash is easily an MVP frontrunner. You could argue that he's not THE frontrunner right now, but he's Top 3, at least.

not to quibble but if he is EASILY the frontfunner how could you argue that he isnt the frontrunner? The comparison of this year to last year that you used earlier is pointless. The fact that dirk is only a slightly better mvp choice instead of a vastly better mvp choice like last year doesnt do alot for me.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 11:55 AM

skip bayless should be outlawed from ever talking about nash or basketball. He just said nash is the best passer ever and the second best pg. good lord, never did i think i would ever see someone make chris broussard look smart.

AxdemxO · 01-12-2007, 02:31 PM

Nash is not the best player in the NBA rite now, He is probably the best passer rite now.

That being said if the MVP was given out now, I would give it to him again

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 02:37 PM

i agree he is a candidate, but just want to ask something, if everyone agrees that the suns have more talent excluding the mvp candidates(they do whether you agree or not) and the mavs have a better record and have beat them head to head, then how can you legitimately argue that nash is the mvp?

i dont think anyone is foolish enough to argue he is the best player so if he has more talent around him i dont see how you can argue he is the most important either...

rmacomic · 01-12-2007, 03:31 PM

Bayliss was just on ESPN. He said Nash is the best passer and best point guard EVER.
Nash is good, but Bayliss is a clueless ass.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmacomic

Bayliss was just on ESPN. He said Nash is the best passer and best point guard EVER.
Nash is good, but Bayliss is a clueless ass.

yeah he said it this morning. Bayliss is a douche. Actually he said magic was the best pg ever due to his height and winners intangibles.

V2M · 01-12-2007, 04:49 PM

nvm

Xylus · 01-12-2007, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

not to quibble but if he is EASILY the frontfunner how could you argue that he isnt the frontrunner? The comparison of this year to last year that you used earlier is pointless. The fact that dirk is only a slightly better mvp choice instead of a vastly better mvp choice like last year doesnt do alot for me.

I was using the word "frontrunner" to describe a top MVP candidate like Kobe, Dirk, and Nash. "THE frontrunner" was used to refer to the best MVP candidate. Probably should have used a different word than frontrunner.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylus

I was using the word "frontrunner" to describe a top MVP candidate like Kobe, Dirk, and Nash. "THE frontrunner" was used to refer to the best MVP candidate. Probably should have used a different word than frontrunner.

so you are saying that he is easily a candidate this year? that i agree with.

Grammaton Cleric · 01-12-2007, 05:47 PM

I too am a Suns fan, and I was totally convinced that Nowitzki was going to win the MVP last year. I was as surprised as everyone when Nash took it.

But just for the sake of clearing something up, Nash won the MVP last year for one reason - Amare.

It wasn't just that Nash improved his stats, it was that he was able to lead the Suns to another division title despite the fact that Stoudemire missed virtually the entire season.

So was it fair? Can't say. Dirk deserved it for sure.

Did he deserve it more than Nash? Debatable, but the majority of the voters didn't think so.

One last thing, you Mavs fans that now loathe Nash and think he's basically over-hyped dog crap on a stick - could it just be a little bit of sour grapes? So he's not a great defender - who says the MVP has to be GREAT at everything? Duncan's won a couple, but he's a lousy free throw shooter. So what? Does Dirk play absolute shut down defense? If you say 'yes' you're kidding yourselves.

Dirk is a phenomenal all-world offensive player and a solid defender. Nash is an incredible facilitator, distributor, creator and deadly shooter. But those aren't the only reasons they're in the MVP race. The success of their teams is also critical.

Nash is just as legit a candidate as Dirk.

MVP = Most Valuable Player. Not BEST player.

The award hasn't been 'tainted' or 'devalued'. Nash was just in the right place at the right time - twice. If you agree that nash can be considered a frontrunner, then you have to agree that he can actually win it.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric

I too am a Suns fan, and I was totally convinced that Nowitzki was going to win the MVP last year. I was as surprised as everyone when Nash took it.

But just for the sake of clearing something up, Nash won the MVP last year for one reason - Amare.

It wasn't just that Nash improved his stats, it was that he was able to lead the Suns to another division title despite the fact that Stoudemire missed virtually the entire season.

So was it fair? Can't say. Dirk deserved it for sure.

Did he deserve it more than Nash? Debatable, but the majority of the voters didn't think so.

One last thing, you Mavs fans that now loathe Nash and think he's basically over-hyped dog crap on a stick - could it just be a little bit of sour grapes? So he's not a great defender - who says the MVP has to be GREAT at everything? Duncan's won a couple, but he's a lousy free throw shooter. So what? Does Dirk play absolute shut down defense? If you say 'yes' you're kidding yourselves.

Dirk is a phenomenal all-world offensive player and a solid defender. Nash is an incredible facilitator, distributor, creator and deadly shooter. But those aren't the only reasons they're in the MVP race. The success of their teams is also critical.

Nash is just as legit a candidate as Dirk.

MVP = Most Valuable Player. Not BEST player.

The award hasn't been 'tainted' or 'devalued'. Nash was just in the right place at the right time - twice. If you agree that nash can be considered a frontrunner, then you have to agree that he can actually win it.

no i dont. He is VASTLY more deserving of it this year than he was last year or the year before. I dont mind him being a candidate THIS year. He shouldnt have been last year. It should have been dirk or lebron and NO one else should have gotten a first place vote.

The amare excuse is the result of a bunch of morons to be honest. People that are too stupid to look at what his team actually had instead of what it didnt have.

The other part of this is that the suns werent that good last year. yes 54 wins is nice. No its not enough to lift a person without great individual numbers that STILL has good talent around him to the mvp.

fluid.forty.one · 01-12-2007, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric

MVP = Most Valuable Player. Not BEST player.

You just caught the point of my thread. Bayliss said he is the MVP because he is the BEST player. It's that last part I have a problem with, and I'm sure everyone in the world would disagree with Skip the Dip.

Xylus · 01-12-2007, 06:26 PM

Skip Bayless shouldn't be commenting on basketball, a sport he clearly has no deep knowledge of. He's a complete waste of space professionally.

dirno2000 · 01-12-2007, 06:26 PM

Quote:

The amare excuse is the result of a bunch of morons to be honest. People that are too stupid to look at what his team actually had instead of what it didnt have.

This sums it up. The media always want's the quick and easy answer.

PHX also traded for Kurt Thomas who gave them an inside presscence. They signed Raja Bell who replaced Quinton Richardson's 3-point shooting and played defense. They added Boris Diaw who went on to win most improved player. And Shawn Marion picked up his game to the point where he was a borderline MVP candidate.

Nevermind all that though, Nash must have been carrying the team on his back. Because that makes the best story.

Grammaton Cleric · 01-12-2007, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

no i dont. He is VASTLY more deserving of it this year than he was last year or the year before. I dont mind him being a candidate THIS year. He shouldnt have been last year. It should have been dirk or lebron and NO one else should have gotten a first place vote.

Why vastly? What's the difference between this year and last? The +2 ppg? I don't see a huge difference between last year's Nash and this year's Nash. The biggest difference is that the Suns team has been healthy so far.

If you're talking strictly numbers, then I'd argue that Dirk is less deserving so far this year, because his stats are down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The amare excuse is the result of a bunch of morons to be honest. People that are too stupid to look at what his team actually had instead of what it didnt have.

No what they saw was what happened to last year's Suns team nearly everytime Nash took a breather. The offense went to hell.

The conclusion was that Nash made these guys look a whole lot better than they are, which you say is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Five-ofan

The other part of this is that the suns werent that good last year. yes 54 wins is nice. No its not enough to lift a person without great individual numbers that STILL has good talent around him to the mvp.

But it wasn't just 54 wins, it was 54 wins WITHOUT Stoudemire (and later Kurt Thomas). When he went down, the entire basketball world predicted 40-45 wins and an 8 seed at best for the Suns. What they accomplished was so much more than was expected, it left a big impression on the voters.

You're going to tell me that you thought the Suns would still win the Pacific without their leading scorer and ONLY legit low post threat?

Grammaton Cleric · 01-12-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fluid.forty.one

You just caught the point of my thread. Bayliss said he is the MVP because he is the BEST player. It's that last part I have a problem with, and I'm sure everyone in the world would disagree with Skip the Dip.

Yeah, but he wouldn't be saying it if the Suns were 18-16. I totally agree with you though. Bayless just kind've has a man crush on Nash it seems.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grammaton Cleric

Why vastly? What's the difference between this year and last? The +2 ppg? I don't see a huge difference between last year's Nash and this year's Nash. The biggest difference is that the Suns team has been healthy so far.

If you're talking strictly numbers, then I'd argue that Dirk is less deserving so far this year, because his stats are down.

No what they saw was what happened to last year's Suns team nearly everytime Nash took a breather. The offense went to hell.

The conclusion was that Nash made these guys look a whole lot better than they are, which you say is wrong.

But it wasn't just 54 wins, it was 54 wins WITHOUT Stoudemire (and later Kurt Thomas). When he went down, the entire basketball world predicted 40-45 wins and an 8 seed at best for the Suns. What they accomplished was so much more than was expected, it left a big impression on the voters.

You're going to tell me that you thought the Suns would still win the Pacific without their leading scorer and ONLY legit low post threat?

first off if your going to complain about not having kurt thomas for the period of time that the suns didnt have him then here are the mavs players who you can actually count, Dirk nowitzki Jason terry, erick dampier, Desaga Diop. EVERYONE else missed at least a comparable amount of time to Kurt thomas. This was the most underlooked part of the mavs last year and dirks game too. Nash does make the game easier for his team(i much prefer that to the makes them better bs) but so does dirk to damn near the same extent just in different ways. Dirk actually sets poor picks but because of who he is and the respect he commands they are ridiculously effective and they are a major reason why a guy who was a career 42% shooter with Atl is a 48+% shooter for dallas.

As to what people predicted, what the hell does that have to do with anything? So because the media mispredicted what the suns would be(and many did still pick them to win that division) Nash should somehow get extra points? Thats just foolish. Let me ask you this, if they had won 48 games(which still would have won that average division) do you think he still would have deserved the award? Of course not. If they were in the same division with the mavs or spurs and got second but still won 54 should that have made him a signifigantly worse candidate? No. So stop using winning an average division as an argument unless you are going to argue that the mavs would magically have won 7 less games if they were in that division.

Why is nash a better candidate this year? Because his team has a great record. They didnt last year. His individual numbers are better but thats not the biggest part of it. The suns were a good but not great regular season team last year. They are a great regular season team this year. That elevates his status. For comparison they were closer in record to the cavs than the mavs while everyone used the cavs record as the only reason lebron couldnt win it.

Now we are going to get to the heart and soul of this matter. Steve nash making his teammates better. As I have already mentioned I conclude that this means putting them in easier situations to succeed. EVERY superstar does this if by nothing other than prescence alone as long as they dont have the ball in their hand ALL of the time. Dirk does it. Ive already mentioned his screens. He is a guy that teams almost always refuse to come off of. He also draws alot of doubles and while it doesnt lead to assists because of the style the mavs play vs the style phoenix plays, he does pass well(though clearly not nash well). My biggest problem with this theory is that it is not a players job to make his teammates better. Its his job to make his TEAM better.

I know that sounds like a really weird distinction to make but it is a legit distinction. Whatever you want to say about nash making teammates better vs dirk being looked at as a guy who doesnt, Dirk took a less talented team and yes dallas was still less talented even without amare(excluding the mvp candidates) to a better record. That is by definition making your team better. This post is getting really long so i will continue my rant in a bit but im not sure how many people will actually make it this far so im going to stop for now.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 07:01 PM

Ok to keep going because i just heard something from tim legler that made me think. He said nash made household names out of guys who wouldnt be. Really? Who? Amare is an absolute freak athletically that averaged 25 and 10 when he came back from injury the year before nash got there. marion? he was a perennial all star and pretty close to 20 and 10 guy BEFORE nash. Raja bell? Hes not really a household name but his numbers remained pretty constant from his numbers the year before he just got more shots because of the faster paced game. Diaw? Maybe but he had 2 triple doubles when nash was out of the lineup last year.

The purpose of this is that im trying to point something out. I do think that phoenix Style has made them or at least their numbers look better than they are. HOWEVER i think some of you need to learn that the phoenix system and steve nash arent the same thing. Yes nash is the perfect fit for that system and he does help it alot but there is at least one other player who is as important to their system as he is.

Xylus · 01-12-2007, 07:58 PM

Not saying that there aren't players on the Suns who aren't as important as Nash (if the Suns ever trade Marion, I'll be extremely disappointed in the franchise), but if you want to talk about the system that they run...

There is no Phoenix Suns breakneck, kill-teams-with-offense system without Steve Nash. You take him out of the lineup and insert a slightly less-gifted point guard and suddenly the Suns are no longer near as good as Dallas and San Antonio. That's what value is.

Oh, and Grammaton: I like the way you think.

Five-ofan · 01-12-2007, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylus

Not saying that there aren't players on the Suns who aren't as important as Nash (if the Suns ever trade Marion, I'll be extremely disappointed in the franchise), but if you want to talk about the system that they run...

There is no Phoenix Suns breakneck, kill-teams-with-offense system without Steve Nash. You take him out of the lineup and insert a slightly less-gifted point guard and suddenly the Suns are no longer near as good as Dallas and San Antonio. That's what value is.

Oh, and Grammaton: I like the way you think.

you take dirk off the mavs and they dont make the playoffs. Same for duncan on the spurs. I firmly believe the suns make the playoffs without nash.

Nemesis · 01-12-2007, 09:21 PM

I am sure Gilbert Arenas will be the next ESPN hard-on...Again, completely skipping Dirk's earned hard-on. ESPN is a political, propaganda, shallow network.

Whoever said 'quick fix' is correct in describing ESPN-NBA

FINtastic · 01-12-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

When he went down, the entire basketball world predicted 40-45 wins and an 8 seed at best for the Suns. What they accomplished was so much more than was expected, it left a big impression on the voters.

You're going to tell me that you thought the Suns would still win the Pacific without their leading scorer and ONLY legit low post threat?

When the Mavs lost Nash, a lot of people thought they were in serious trouble because they no longer had an experienced, true point guard. Steve Kerr picked the Mavs to finish 9th in the West. Instead the Mavs end up with the third best record in the West with 58 wins. Yet I don't see Dirk toting an MVP trophy.

When the Chicago lost the greatest player of all time after they won the 1993 Championship, they responding by posting a 55-27 record. Yet I don't see Scottie Pippen carrying MVP trophy either.

Let's face it, the Amare excuse all by itself is lame. And when you look at how Nash was playing with a very solid supporting cast (Marion who was easily a top 10 player, Boris Diaw who created so many mismatches, and a very solid player in Raja Bell), I don't see how you can say Nash was any more valuable than Dirk or LeBron.