What will it take to get the Mavs to the next level this off-season. - Page 3 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

MavsFanFinley · 05-27-2003, 09:21 PM

I was going to start a new thread, but I think this will do here.

First, this is a bit along the lines of the trade involving Minnesota that would land us KG. It's a bit wishful thinking, but I think this idea has more of a chance.

It's to do with Denver and whether or not we have what they'd want to get the #3 pick? I'm stealing this idea from the LMF board.

Would you be willing to trade Nash, maybe Najera, cash or picks to get the #3 pick? Obviously, we'd go after Carmelo Anthony. You can see why I place this in the wishful thinking category.

I imagine Denver could get a better deal in landing a pg and getting another first round pick and still get something.

I have not a clue how salaries would match so I could be WAY off.

Or how about Najera for Tskitishvili?

mavsfanforever · 05-27-2003, 09:24 PM

<< I was going to start a new thread, but I think this will do here.

First, this is a bit along the lines of the trade involving Minnesota that would land us KG. It's a bit wishful thinking, but I think this idea has more of a chance.

It's to do with Denver and whether or not we have what they'd want to get the #3 pick? I'm stealing this idea from the LMF board.

Would you be willing to trade Nash, maybe Najera, cash or picks to get the #3 pick? Obviously, we'd go after Carmelo Anthony. You can see why I place this in the wishful thinking category.

I imagine Denver could get a better deal in landing a pg and getting another first round pick and still get something.

I have not a clue how salaries would match so I could be WAY off.

Or how about Najera for Tskitishvili? >>

I am willing to trade everyone except Dirk for KG. We can use useless players like Speedy.

aexchange · 05-27-2003, 09:24 PM

no.

regardless of whether you love or hate nash, he is a top 5 PG in the NBA. although NVE has played well, he is way too streaky and not good enough in getting the mavs into the flow of the offense that replacing nash with NVE would be a significant drop off.

obviously having carmelo would be great, but im not convinced he isnt that much better than glen robinson. scoring is the last thing we have problems with and at this point we should be more concerned with shoring up our weaknesses and plugging them with very solid role players.

i am not for trading the big 3 unless we can get someone of significant improvement. melo while nice, isnt that.

mavsfanforever · 05-27-2003, 09:25 PM

What about Charles saying dallas has most beautiful women.

mavsfanforever · 05-27-2003, 09:27 PM

We could use Ruben Studdard to foul Bowen.

aexchange · 05-27-2003, 09:27 PM

please avoid the post padding. there are specific threads for you to do that in.

mavsfanforever · 05-27-2003, 09:28 PM

<< I was going to start a new thread, but I think this will do here.

First, this is a bit along the lines of the trade involving Minnesota that would land us KG. It's a bit wishful thinking, but I think this idea has more of a chance.

It's to do with Denver and whether or not we have what they'd want to get the #3 pick? I'm stealing this idea from the LMF board.

Would you be willing to trade Nash, maybe Najera, cash or picks to get the #3 pick? Obviously, we'd go after Carmelo Anthony. You can see why I place this in the wishful thinking category.

I imagine Denver could get a better deal in landing a pg and getting another first round pick and still get something.

I have not a clue how salaries would match so I could be WAY off.

Or how about Najera for Tskitishvili? >>

If you are saying we get tskitishville for NaJera thats dumb. I would take Nine Hilario instead.

LRB · 05-28-2003, 12:01 AM

<< please avoid the post padding. there are specific threads for you to do that in. >>

Yeah shame on anyone who is post padding!!!

LRB · 05-28-2003, 12:01 AM

Did I mention that post padding is bad? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

OutletPass · 05-28-2003, 06:37 PM

In support of my idea of getting younger:

Secaucus still the place to go to rebuild
Special to ESPN.com

Is Thursday the day the Cleveland Cavaliers become NBA contenders?

The Denver Nuggets?

What's this, the NFL? Cleveland or Denver playing for a championship?

Not in David Stern's NBA!

"You see, Mr. Stern, what we do is inject this dye into the Ping-Pong balls, and then the Knicks ..."

No, no, the NBA draft lottery isn't manipulated. I swear.

Yes, Mr. Stern, I've written what you instructed. Now will you tell me where you've hidden my dog?

If LeBron James joins Dajuan Wagner, left, and Ricky Davis, the Cavaliers could be back in style. OK, if I have to admit it, I really believe Thursday's NBA lottery is legitimate. Really. But that's the problem. Since it is on the up and up, we may someday be going to Cleveland for a championship game.

They can do these kinds of things in the NFL with Tampa or Green Bay in the finals. That league is just a five-month betting pool, anyway. The NBA is a big-time sport, and we know big-time sports need big-time cities to have the big-time teams, so they can get big-time TV ratings and everyone can make lots of money from those big-time TV contracts.

But if this lottery works out according to the odds, some place you usually don't want to be, like Cleveland or Denver, is going to get the No. 1 pick and high school sensation LeBron James.

This guy is going to be good. I'd bet my -- Oh, that's right; that's the NFL. Trust me. This kid could be one of the top 10 players in the NBA in two years. And that's how you become a great team.

OK, it's not certain. Kevin Garnett and Tracy McGrady are among the top five players in the NBA, and they are at fewer playoff games than I am. They play in barely more postseason contests than Shareef Abdur-Rahim, and he's never played in one. But the formula for championships in the NBA is greatness, and greatness comes through the draft.

So how do get to the Finals? Well, you call your travel agent.

Let's examine the four teams this season with a chance to get to the NBA Finals. OK, three. Sorry, the Pistons never had a chance. But they could be there next year. Thanks to Doug Collins and Rick Sund before they were fired, the Pistons got the Grizzlies' No. 1 draft pick this year (unless it's No. 1 overall) for Otis Thorpe. So if they get the second or third pick and add it to what they have, they're looking pretty good.

The Nets made a heck of a trade to get Jason Kidd. But watch the development of Kenyon Martin. He's turning into an elite player. Richard Jefferson is a nice piece, too. They're both top draft picks.

The Mavericks, who once had Kidd, eventually parlayed that into Steve Nash. But their core player is Dirk Nowitzki, who came through the draft. How he got down that far remains a great coup.

And, of course, there is the ultimate draft team, the Spurs, saying goodbye to former No. 1 overall draft pick David Robinson this season as Tim Duncan continues to emerge as perhaps the best all-around player in the NBA, now with consecutive MVP awards. He's a recent No. 1 overall draft pick.

Sure, you've got to be lucky when you have that No. 1 overall pick, unlike 1998 when Michael Olowokandi and Mike Bibby were the top two picks or 1995 when Golden State tabbed Joe Smith before high schoolers were the rage and Minnesota got Garnett at No. 5.

The revolution in the NBA in the last decade was free agency.

And, sure, the Lakers built a champion with it by signing Shaquille O'Neal, though that was an either/or signing. As in either he was going to Los Angeles or staying in Orlando. There was no open market. The Orlando Magic had a nice free agency plan in 2000, but it didn't work out as Grant Hill was injured.

Fact is, the rules of the NBA make it too difficult and too unlikely that a team can build through free agency, even though the all-time -- and probably one-time -- crack in that universal truth exists this summer with the Spurs. They're perhaps headed to a championship, and have the most money under the salary cap to add the best available free-agent player in the league because of Robinson's retirement and the contracts of veterans like the retiring Steve Smith. That best free agent would be the Nets' Kidd, who'll probably end up staying with the Nets.

The reason is money. The NBA rules were formulated in the 1999 collective bargaining agreement to give the home team an advantage to re-sign its players by being able to offer an extra year on a contract and a bigger annual raise. Players always talk about championships, and then they always go where they can make the most money. It's the ultimate truism of sports.

But that labor agreement changed even that truism to a degree.

Players always went for the most money, so the Chicago Bulls' rebuilding plan after the breakup of its championship teams in 1998 was to accumulate the most money and then, thus, get the best players. But the new labor deal put a ceiling on salaries. So all teams under the salary cap were equal. That means a free agent could look to interest B, which could be where his wife wanted to live or where the golfing was better.

There's only a handful of truly elite players in the game, and they're not about to start over. Kobe Bryant can opt out of his contract after next season. Think he's going to take that Charlotte salary cap room?

Except for the aberration with the Spurs this season, the only way a team accumulates enough money to make a big score in the free-agent market is to be lousy, or Bullish (Bulls-like?) in the recent vernacular. And free agents don't like rebuilding. They like comfort. You make a lot of money and you lose a lot of games, but who's fault is that? Guess. There's only a handful of truly elite players in the game, and they're not about to start over. Kobe Bryant can opt out of his contract after next season. Think he's going to take that Charlotte salary cap room?

So if you're going to be successful in the NBA, you have to take a deep breath, get smart and get lucky.

Like the Bulls. They had this big free-agent plan and, oops, they had to start over. Now, through the draft -- and annual 60-plus loss seasons -- they have an impressive young nucleus of talent. There probably isn't a team in the East that wouldn't trade rosters with the Bulls now. OK, maybe in a year or two.

The point is, that is how you get rich in the NBA.

Cleveland and Denver have put in the lousy part. Now they have a chance to start getting better. But so does Toronto, which also has Vince Carter. Wouldn't that be a nice addition for the Raptors ... and Miami and, oh yeah, did I forget to mention the Knicks?

LRB · 05-28-2003, 06:51 PM

<< In support of my idea of getting younger: >>

The Mavs definitely need an infusion of youth.

Hoopsmeister · 05-28-2003, 08:46 PM

<<

<< PF:
1. PJ Brown >>

- If Malone won't come here, do it.

<< 2. Karl Malone >>

- Really the guy the Mavs must get.

<< 3. Coleman >>

- No thanks. >>

Wow. I rarely strongly disagree with KG, but I completely disagree this time. I think Malone is a lousy idea--Malone has lasted longer than most but he is still a Mutombo-Ewing-Olajuwon just waiting to happen. And he has extended his durability by becoming more and more of a jump shooter over the recent years--and the whole point of a thread like this is that we don't really need another jumpshooter. We need a rebounder--and at this point in their careers, Brown is not only a better rebounder than Malone but he is a guy who is willing to be 4th or 5th option on offense while going out and getting those rebounds and playing defense--which is what the Mavs need.

<<

<< C:
1. Mourning >>

- Depends on what it takes to get him.

<< 2. Jamal Magloire >>

- This guy's probably out of reach.

<< 3. Elden Campbell >>

- Surely Sonics keep him. >>

Not so sure Magliore is out of reach. A lot of top tier guys out there this off-season and not that many teams with cap space (and one of those is the Clippers). Some good players are going to have to live with the MLE. (I'd agree that Campbell isn't going to be available though).

kg_veteran · 05-28-2003, 10:33 PM

<< Wow. I rarely strongly disagree with KG, but I completely disagree this time. I think Malone is a lousy idea--Malone has lasted longer than most but he is still a Mutombo-Ewing-Olajuwon just waiting to happen. And he has extended his durability by becoming more and more of a jump shooter over the recent years--and the whole point of a thread like this is that we don't really need another jumpshooter. We need a rebounder--and at this point in their careers, Brown is not only a better rebounder than Malone but he is a guy who is willing to be 4th or 5th option on offense while going out and getting those rebounds and playing defense--which is what the Mavs need. >>

I think Malone has 2-3 high quality years still left in him -- assuming he wants to play that long.

Brown is the better rebounder and the better and more versatile defender. Malone is still pretty good in both areas, and he's much better offensively, both as a scorer and as a passer.

That said, you make a very valid point. Malone would have to be the 4th option, and I honestly don't know how he'd adjust to basically being asked to do the grunt work in the trenches. That's all that Brown has known his entire career.

Perhaps Brown is the better fit, but I'd be happy with either of them.

<< Not so sure Magliore is out of reach. A lot of top tier guys out there this off-season and not that many teams with cap space (and one of those is the Clippers). Some good players are going to have to live with the MLE. (I'd agree that Campbell isn't going to be available though). >>

I'd LOVE to add Magloire. If I had to choose between Magloire and Brown, it'd be tough.

Hoopsmeister · 05-29-2003, 02:00 AM

<< I think Malone has 2-3 high quality years still left in him -- assuming he wants to play that long. >>

You may be right. Certainly Stockton-to-Malone lasted far longer than anybody ever expected and Malone might continue to do so. But there have been too many recent examples demonstrating at some point NBA big men go downhill fast for me to be willing to take that chance.

<< Brown is the better rebounder and the better and more versatile defender. Malone is still pretty good in both areas, and he's much better offensively, both as a scorer and as a passer. >>

I'd certainly agree that Malone is much better offensively. But more offensive is not what the Mavs need (though it never hurts), they need the areas where Brown is better (rebounding and defense). Next year, the primary competition is going to be the same group as this year--Spurs, Kings and Lakers. So when you are talking about the power forward position you are talking about someone to match up with Duncan and Webber.

Or try this thought, as the Lakers know they need to shore up the power forward position--which would you rather see: Dallas getting PJ Brown and LA getting Malone, or Dallas with Malone and LA with Brown--to provide defense on Malone? (Utah was 0-2 vs. New Orleans this year)

That said, you make a very valid point. Malone would have to be the 4th option, and I honestly don't know how he'd adjust to basically being asked to do the grunt work in the trenches. That's all that Brown has known his entire career.

<< I'd LOVE to add Magloire. If I had to choose between Magloire and Brown, it'd be tough. >>

I know what you mean. Though I'd probably go with Magliore even though I like Brown better--simply because Magliore is 25 meaning that he could pair with Dirk in the long-term, something the Mavs need to be thinking about.

kg_veteran · 05-29-2003, 09:00 AM

I'd go with Magloire because of his age. But I wonder if we could somehow acquire both? Doubtful, but definitely worth looking into...

MavsFanFinley · 05-29-2003, 09:44 AM

For those that are hesitant or flat out don't like the idea of adding Malone, are you willing to wait all summer for an answer from PJ Brown? From my understanding, he's going to take his time deciding on what to do and the Hornets are his first option.

Say we talk to PJ first and he shows interest but talks with 5 other teams and asks for a month or so to make his decision.

Then we talk to Malone a few days later and he wants to play for Dallas, he'll play for the MLE, do you hold him off cause we'd rather have Brown or do you sign him?

I know what I would do, but I get the feeling some would rather wait the summer out to get our guy. I don't think that worked for us last summer.

LRB · 05-29-2003, 09:57 AM

<< I'd certainly agree that Malone is much better offensively. But more offensive is not what the Mavs need (though it never hurts), they need the areas where Brown is better (rebounding and defense). >>

I would disagree. What the Mavs need are complete players. Players who can play both sides of the ball. We need guys who can give us offense and turn around and play defense and rebound as well.

I think Malone is a much more complete player that PJ Brown is. MFF also brings up a very good point, we might have to wait all summer to hear from PJ and still have a good chance of getting nothing. Been there, done that, got the TShirt from last year. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]

ariosto · 05-29-2003, 10:00 AM

<< For those that are hesitant or flat out don't like the idea of adding Malone, are you willing to wait all summer for an answer from PJ Brown? From my understanding, he's going to take his time deciding on what to do and the Hornets are his first option.

Say we talk to PJ first and he shows interest but talks with 5 other teams and asks for a month or so to make his decision.

Then we talk to Malone a few days later and he wants to play for Dallas, he'll play for the MLE, do you hold him off cause we'd rather have Brown or do you sign him?

I know what I would do, but I get the feeling some would rather wait the summer out to get our guy. I don't think that worked for us last summer. >>

I totally agree. I really don't want to take our chances this summer. I remember a lot of talk about Cuban liking to wait because he thought the best deals would come once everyone else had played their hands and spent their money. But last year that strategy was a disaster. We need to add one of these guys this summer, so if Karl is willing and PJ is coy, I'd take Karl right away. I'd take PJ right away too if Karl is taking his time considering Utah or LA.

Hoopsmeister · 05-29-2003, 10:03 AM

I wouldn't necessarily wait on Brown there are other choices I would definitely be looking at. But on the other hand, I think Malone would be a major mistake for this team so in your scenario, MFF, I'd rather we waited on Brown than signed Malone. I really feel that most people are jumping at the name and not looking at the game he has played the last couple of years or the game he is likely to play next year which offers the Mavs very little.

kg_veteran · 05-29-2003, 10:30 AM

<< For those that are hesitant or flat out don't like the idea of adding Malone, are you willing to wait all summer for an answer from PJ Brown? From my understanding, he's going to take his time deciding on what to do and the Hornets are his first option. >>

I think everyone would agree that the Mavericks absolutely cannot afford to come up empty in this summer's FA market. They must obtain a big guy that can contribute. And that's before they address their other needs. But whether it be Brown, Malone, Magloire or someone else, they must land a quality player.

That said, I don't think they should allow last year's experience to make them jump at a guy that doesn't necessarily fit just so that they can say they got somebody.

I think that there will be enough players out there that the Mavs can convince one they want to commit early on. I certainly hope so.

MavsFanFinley · 05-29-2003, 10:39 AM

<< That said, I don't think they should allow last year's experience to make them jump at a guy that doesn't necessarily fit just so that they can say they got somebody.

I think that there will be enough players out there that the Mavs can convince one they want to commit early on. I certainly hope so. >>

Absolutely KG. I should have made that clear. I was referring more to the Malone/Brown debate than anything else.

I don't want the Mavs signing the first person that shows interest in Dallas that doesn't fill a need, but I was curious if people would wait all summer for possibly signing PJ when Malone lets us know he'd sign as soon as possible.

I don't want the Mavs jumping the gun, but I just couldn't stand a repeat of last summer and end up having to scramble to fill some slots.

LRB · 05-29-2003, 11:55 AM

<< That said, I don't think they should allow last year's experience to make them jump at a guy that doesn't necessarily fit just so that they can say they got somebody. >>

Can you say Eshmeyer? I totally agree with you on this one KG. The Mavs should go after the best player they feel that they have a legitimate shot at. But I also feel the Mavs should but a time limit. If the player doesn't agree by the end of the time limit, then we go shopping elsewhere. The mistake we made last year was letting Rashard Lewis set the time frame.

OutletPass · 05-29-2003, 11:59 AM

I just couldn't stand a repeat of last summer and end up having to scramble to fill some slots.

My absolute worst fear, MFF.

Let's get experience and some youth and create a dynasty, not a one hit wonder !!!

kg_veteran · 05-29-2003, 12:39 PM

<< ...I was curious if people would wait all summer for possibly signing PJ when Malone lets us know he'd sign as soon as possible. >>

No, I wouldn't. That is, unless I felt like Malone wouldn't accept his new (and different) role in Dallas. If he comes in expecting just to be a scorer and to chase Kareem's record, no thanks. But if he comes in knowing that he will called up on to do the dirty work defensively, hit the boards hard, and provide a low post presence offensively, I'd go for it.

Having said all that, if Malone wants to come here for the MLE, I can't envision the Mavs saying no.

big_pth · 05-29-2003, 12:46 PM

Personally, I hope that this team makes it to the next level THIS season. Screw the off season, I want to believe NOW!

ariosto · 05-29-2003, 12:54 PM

<< Personally, I hope that this team makes it to the next level THIS season. Screw the off season, I want to believe NOW! >>

I'm definitely hoping for the title this year. But even if we win it, the mid-level exception signing is still really important. We can't sit on our laurels even if we win it all. The Spurs will be adding multiple pieces this off-season. And of course it wont cost us any personelle.

kg_veteran · 05-29-2003, 12:57 PM

<<

<< Personally, I hope that this team makes it to the next level THIS season. Screw the off season, I want to believe NOW! >>

I'm definitely hoping for the title this year. But even if we win it, the mid-level exception signing is still really important. We can't sit on our laurels even if we win it all. The Spurs will be adding multiple pieces this off-season. >>

Even champs need to improve. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

madape · 05-29-2003, 01:02 PM

The Spurs will be losing vocal team leader and hall of fame center David Robinson and will be replacing him with the decrepid pile of underacheiving dog shit Michael Olowakandi. Pardon me if I don't start shaking in my boots.

ariosto · 05-29-2003, 01:58 PM

<< The Spurs will be losing vocal team leader and hall of fame center David Robinson and will be replacing him with the decrepid pile of underacheiving dog shit Michael Olowakandi. Pardon me if I don't start shaking in my boots. >>

I really hope they get Olowakandi. I think he stinks. But if they get Jermaine O'Neil I'd be worried, even though they would be getting something they already have better in Duncan.

Evilmav2 · 05-29-2003, 02:09 PM

Don't worry about O'Neal. Hell will freeze over before Donnie Walsh lets him leave Indy. The Pacers are going to trade away some of their glut of forwards this Summer*, assure Jermaine that he is their franchise, and proceed to sign him for the max. Jermaine isn't going anywhere...

Olowakandi on the other hand...

It makes me very happy thinking about that tub of crap playing in silver and black for the next few years. Spurs subtraction by addition...

*"I would expect us to be very active in dealing with the team," Walsh said Friday as he met with the media for the first time since the Pacers were eliminated from the playoffs on May 1. "I'm not trying to get rid of everybody. But we need certain additions."
-indystar, May 24, 2003

ariosto · 05-29-2003, 02:13 PM

Good news- glad to hear it. Keep Jermaine in the East where he's got no competition at the 4. Let's all hope Olowokandi can sit on the Spurs' IL and collect their money next season. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

kg_veteran · 05-29-2003, 02:30 PM

<< The Spurs will be losing vocal team leader and hall of fame center David Robinson and will be replacing him with the decrepid pile of underacheiving dog shit Michael Olowakandi. Pardon me if I don't start shaking in my boots. >>

If this is the move the Spurs make, I'll laugh at them. And to think, at one point, everybody wanted Olowokandi here in Dallas.

Evilmav2 · 05-29-2003, 02:33 PM

Also, don't forget that the collective bargaining agreement allows the Pacers to give Jermaine raises of 12.5 percent while other teams can only offer only 10 percent. Over seven years that would add up to quite a bit of money. Jermaine would be leaving millions on the table is he decided to go play second banana to Duncan.

The ability of the Pacers to exceed any other teams offer, the strong possibility that Walsh will have success this Summer in bringing in backcourt help for O'Neal, and the enticements of Jermaine's continuing to play in the weaker East, all stack the odds against the Spurs ever having a chance of signing the young starting Eastern conference all-star...

San Antonio will probably just have to be content with the signing of the Clipper's franchise player, former #1 draft pick, Micheal Olowakandi next year...

kg_veteran · 05-29-2003, 02:46 PM

Many of the same financial reasons will keep Kidd in New Jersey.

Evilmav2 · 05-29-2003, 02:51 PM

Yup, Olowakandi may just end up being the prize of the offseason...

Duncan-Olowakandi just might form the most structurally imbalanced pair of "Twin Towers" since Shaquille O'Neal-Tree Rollins, or Stanley Roberts-Keith Closs...

kg_veteran · 05-29-2003, 02:55 PM

<< Yup, Olowakandi may just end up being the prize of the offseason... >>

Wow, some prize.

I'd rather have any number of other players.