What will it take to get the Mavs to the next level this off-season. - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

aexchange · 05-26-2003, 03:09 PM

Props to KG for starting the initial spark.

in order of priority.

1. a starting small forward who can stretch out the defense and is a good enough slasher. must be able to guard 2s and 3s more than adequately. i would see what i could do to get desmond mason.

1a. bruisers down low who get enough respect from officials that they don't get called for ticky tack fouls. alonzo mourning, pj brown, and malone would be people i would look at. mourning first, assuming he can stay healthy. even a zo with 20-25 min per game would contribute more than what bradley and lafrentz have given us. i might look at dale davis, but he doesnt seem to be any less foul prone than bradley or lafrentz. lafrentz isnt necessarily a bad man on man defender, he just gets called for so many ticky tack fouls that it hinders his effectiveness and aggressiveness.

2. better perimeter defenders. i would look into signing speedy claxton in the off-season as a backup to NVE and nash. if he doesnt ask for more than a million, i say go ahead and get the deal done. most of our reliance on zones is because we can't stop the perimeter defenders from getting into the paint, and dirk doesn't blitz hard enough on the pick and rolls. we need better man on defenders.

3. get rid of the loose weight. popeye, esch, walt williams, and either griffin or bell need to go. i would see what i could do to convince esch to retire and then buy out the remainder of his contract. accept it as a loss and move on. i see if griffin or bell want to sign a mid term deal at a very low salary and ink them.

4. move lafrentz to the east where he could put up very servicable numbers. the idea to get him was correct, but he's obviously lost his confidence, and in reality needs to be a second offensive option to be effective. he's the kind of player that needs to get enough touches to get into a rhythm. preferably 12-15. not the 5 or so touches he's been getting from the mavs.

5. see if we can convince some vet's to sign long term deals for the remainder of their careers at very low salaries. again, you might look at dale davis, d. coleman, pippen, reggie miller, or even elden campbell. questions to ponder, you might be able to circumvent the salary cap by signing vet's to long term deals at low contracts. then buying them out at the end of their contract when they retire. for instance, sign pippen to a 5 year deal at $2M per season. if he retires in 2 years, buy him out at $4M. he comes off the cap the following season, and the mavs will be over the cap regardless, so it makes little difference beyond the luxury tax.

6. build around dirk. front court players we sign should be brusiers built to protect dirk and any defeciencies he has.

7. focus on executing better in both the half court offense and half court defense.

the mavs will need to pawn off as trade bait this off-season: AJ, Najera, and LaFrentz. Finley is tradeable only if we are able to get close to equal value.

OutletPass · 05-26-2003, 03:43 PM

KG and I just did some PM's on the subject...very good ideas, AE. I'll post mine later after I get reacclimated from my strange Austin trip. (please see my "kharma" thread in the lounge)

kg_veteran · 05-26-2003, 03:44 PM

My thoughts:

1. Nellie becomes exclusively GM, with Little Nellie taking the reins. (This may actually happen, because I think Don will make it appear to be his decision if Cuban wants him to step aside.)

2. Trade Van Exel for Artest.

3. Sign Malone as a FA with the MLE.

4. Convince Dale Davis to sign as a FA for the vet minimum.

Envision this with me...

Nowitzki - Bradley/LaFrentz
Malone - Davis
Artest - Najera
Finley - Bell
Nash - Johnson

Let Williams and Griffin go. Hopefully you can sign another vet SF with the minimum, or perhaps bring Griff back.

MFFL · 05-26-2003, 03:55 PM

Toughness. That's all we need. We need to get some players who understand that their role isn't to be one of the Big 3. We need a center, a power forward, and a small forward who can rebound and play solid defense.

The Raef/Shawn center rotation needs to be broken up. Neither of them are consistent enough to be a starter in this league. Either of them would be a valuable backup though.

NVE or Finley should be traded. We are too small when both of them are in the lineup with Nash and they both basically play the same role - offense.

Spur in Chi-Town · 05-26-2003, 04:00 PM

<< My thoughts:

1. Nellie becomes exclusively GM, with Little Nellie taking the reins. (This may actually happen, because I think Don will make it appear to be his decision if Cuban wants him to step aside.)

2. Trade Van Exel for Artest.

3. Sign Malone as a FA with the MLE.

4. Convince Dale Davis to sign as a FA for the vet minimum.

Envision this with me...

Nowitzki - Bradley/LaFrentz
Malone - Davis
Artest - Najera
Finley - Bell
Nash - Johnson

Let Williams and Griffin go. Hopefully you can sign another vet SF with the minimum, or perhaps bring Griff back. >>

That would be a great lineup for the Mavs.. If they could pull that off, you'd definitely be a major contender. i know the mavs didn't get any respect all year even while holding the best record for a long time, but the media would definitely respect that lineup.

Murphy3 · 05-26-2003, 04:12 PM

solid post aex.

one thing that must happen if you're going to build around dirk is this:

dirk must continue to develop his low post game. By the end. of next season, I want to see a player that is one of the better low post scoring threats in the NBA. This falls on both dirk and the coaching staff

kg_veteran · 05-26-2003, 04:25 PM

I probably should back up a bit. My first post was geared toward specific acquisitions, but I generally agree with what Aex and MFFL had to say.

1. We have to get tougher.

All of the guys I mentioned are just examples of players that would do that for this team.

2. We have to get a starting SF. One that hates it when he gets scored on, but can also put the ball in the basket.

I love the idea of Artest because he's a psychopath who will take his opponent's head off if and when necessary. Also, he's a great defender and more than adequate scorer.

2. We have to upgrade the interior, preferably without breaking up the nucleus.

Those are the keys...

mavsfanforever · 05-26-2003, 04:32 PM

<< solid post aex.

one thing that must happen if you're going to build around dirk is this:

dirk must continue to develop his low post game. By the end. of next season, I want to see a player that is one of the better low post scoring threats in the NBA. This falls on both dirk and the coaching staff >>

I think its time for Dirk or the Mavs organisation to hire a personal coach to improve Dirk's low post game. I heard Chris Webber has one and now we see him as a threat in the low post. Dirk is 24 years and a great athlete and learns the game quickly.

Sports Point · 05-26-2003, 04:38 PM

I have to disagree with signing Artest. He'd be a cancer to this team. Nick is perfect because he brings a lot of aggressivenss and attitude but knows when to keep a level head.

Murphy3 · 05-26-2003, 04:40 PM

nick does bring aggressiveness off of the bench..but he also brings the same thing that fin and nash bring to an extent..

offense with little defense and little rebounding (although fin has shown the ability to step up in those areas in the playoffs)

the mavs cannot afford to go forward with extreme weaknesses on both the outside and the inside defensively

MFFL · 05-26-2003, 04:45 PM

<< nick does bring aggressiveness off of the bench..but he also brings the same thing that fin and nash bring to an extent..

offense with little defense and little rebounding (although fin has shown the ability to step up in those areas in the playoffs)

the mavs cannot afford to go forward with extreme weaknesses on both the outside and the inside defensively >>

That's why I believe that either Fin or NVE have to go. Either will be able to get a solid rebounder/defender type at the 3 or 4. NVE's trade value is probably higher than Finley though. NVE carried the team in the Kings series, has a shorter contract, and plays a premium position.

Sports Point · 05-26-2003, 04:45 PM

I'm not saying Nick is the answer, but I'm saying Artest is bad mojo.

Sports Point · 05-26-2003, 04:47 PM

I'd be more apt to leaving Fin, as he's nto as much of a leader and you can upgrade from his talent level with the addition of tossing Reaf into the trade or Griffin.

mavsfanforever · 05-26-2003, 04:49 PM

We need someone like malik or Randolph along with malone or Pj Brown. When our shooting is poor these guys would pick up key offensive rebounds. Also we can dish it to malone and use him as an inside out passer or a scorer. This helps us win games where our jump shooting struggles.

MFFL · 05-26-2003, 04:49 PM

Artest is a great fit. He is a dominating defender (2.3 steals per game), a decent scorer (15 ppg), and a good rebounder (5.2 rpg). He is a head case but Cuban can always hire a team shrink.

MikeB · 05-26-2003, 05:44 PM

I am in favor of going ALL OUT....FULL THROTTLE so to speak....in acquiring Alonzo Mourning. I am even willing to overpay him as long as we can do a sign and trade with Miami(I'm not sure who Miami would want...not Dirk, Raef and or Bradley would work for me...lol...or who I would be willing to part with...that is debateable at this time). IF and I know it is a big if...we are able to do a sign and trade then we would still be able to use the full MLE on PJ Brown and the addition of those two would definitely help shore up the low post D and rebounding.
Popeye and either Griff or Bell will not be on the team next season....Walt Williams I believe has earned a spot if he wants to return. I would like to see us somehow dump Eschmeyer...a buyout or maybe included in a trade of some sort as filler? I would like to see Avery Johnson retire and move to the bench full time...if not here then at least get off our roster as trade bait with an expiring contract. Abdul-Wahad we are pretty much stuck with....unless some dumb GM gives us anything for him. Rigaudeau we are stuck with as well unless he can be bought out and wants to go back to Europe.
We also need to either sign or draft some athleticism with size. Someone 6'8 or taller with some jumping ability and slashing ability. Right now we have the 29th pick....if there is not a player there that we are sure will make the team then we should try to trade the pick to a team that drafts high in the 2nd so the player we choose will not have a guaranteed contract(just like Sac did with Atlanta last season in the Dickau trade)even if we have to offer a 2nd next year to do so.
Some guys I would like to see Dallas draft are:
Josh Powell of NC ST
Brian Cook of Illinois
Uche Nsonwu-Amadi of Wyoming
or Josh Howard of Wake Forest

Our possible roster would look like this:
PG Nash and Van Exel(we should add a big young PG or a cheap vet...Antonio Daniels?)
SG Finley,Bell and Abdul-Wahad
SF Dirk,Walt Williams,Rigadeau and Josh Howard or Brian Cook?
PF PJ Brown and Najera(should add another big...prerably a PF-C type)
C Alonzo and Bradley
We lose Raef,Popeye,AJ,Esch,and Griff...we add PJ,Alonzo,Josh Howard or Cook, Antonio Daniels or another big PG, and another big body.

MFFL · 05-26-2003, 05:48 PM

I would not be opposed to a sign and trade for Zo if all we give up is Raef. But I think Miami wants to be a player in free agency this year which is why Zo is available.

aexchange · 05-26-2003, 05:58 PM

if we were able to trade raef for zo, miami would actually have a very good lineup in the east.

PG: TJ Ford
SG: Eddie Jones
SF: Caron Butler
PF: Brian Grant
C: Raef LaFrentz

mavsfanforever · 05-26-2003, 05:59 PM

raef will rule in the east just like K-Mart.

mavsfanforever · 05-26-2003, 06:08 PM

Okay-

NVE and Bradley along with draft picks for Brand and Andre miller. Can someone tell me if this works in RealGM.

MikeB · 05-26-2003, 06:13 PM

Since Brand and Miller are both restricted FA the answer is NO.

kg_veteran · 05-26-2003, 06:45 PM

Murph and MFFL make great points about our current backcourt (Nash, Nick, Fin). You just can't keep those three guys together when none of them is above average defensively. I think we keep Fin for a multitude of reasons over Nick, but from a sheerly pragmatic point of view, you trade players when their value is the highest, and Nick's value has never been higher as a Mav. Three months ago, the Pacers wouldn't have considered taking Nick for Artest. Now, they will, because they need a point guard badly. Also, Artest and O'Neal aren't best of buddies, and Indy wants to keep Jermaine happy.

Can't agree that Artest would be a cancer. He's not going to change the core guys and how they behave.

I'd love to deal Raef, but you're gonna have real trouble doing it with his salary. The Brand/Miller for NVE/LaFrentz proposal is laughable. It would take more than NVE and LaFrentz to get Brand, I imagine.

MFFL · 05-26-2003, 07:13 PM

<< The Brand/Miller for NVE/LaFrentz proposal is laughable. It would take more than NVE and LaFrentz to get Brand, I imagine. >>

I think the Clips would do the deal if the Mavs players weren't so highly paid. But there is NO WAY that the Clips owner is going to take EITHER salary, let alone both of them.

MFFL · 05-26-2003, 07:15 PM

<< great points about our current backcourt (Nash, Nick, Fin). You just can't keep those three guys together when none of them is above average defensively. >>

Actually you can throw Dirk in there as well. He can't be consider above average either. When Nash, NVE, Fin, & Dirk are in the lineup we have a very ordinary defensive club. The 5th player can't make enough of a difference.

LRB · 05-26-2003, 09:14 PM

<< 2. Trade Van Exel for Artest. >>

KG I agree we should probably trade NVE. I'm a big believer in buy low, sell high. NVE's stock is very doubtful to get any higher than it currently is now. He's getting older and slowing down. But he's just had the best stretch of his career during the playoffs. The odds are extremely stacked against him staying this good or getting better. Best time to trade.

But I'm not a fan of breaking Artest here. He's an out of control player. Could possible disrupt team chemistry. Don't think he's the best we can get.

madape · 05-26-2003, 09:16 PM

I'm beginning to like the idea of Dirk being the starting small forward on most nights. He's a matchup nightmare at that spot, and from what I've seen in these playoffs, I'd rather have him guarding swingmen than power players in the post. Plug in Malone or another veteran power forward at the four and let Bradley/Raef block shots at the five. Nash/Nick/Finley/Dirk will remain terrible perimiter defenders and unless you want to overhaul the big four, we will still need shotblocking. Unless you can name me a better shotblocker than either Reaf or Bradley, I don't want to hear it. Without shotblocking, we'd be the most porous interior defense of all time... even with Malone. While you are at it, banish the undersized, poor-rebounding, poor-scoring Najera to the bench. If the Spurs series is teaching us that size matters, then lets get big. A low post rotation of Dirk, Raef, Malone, Bradley has size, shotblocking, athleticism, low post scoring, and depth.
In my opinion, Bradley and Raef get unduly critisized because people expect them to be something they aren't. With Malone in the rotation, you've got your low post scoring threat. Bradley can do what he does best, which is anchor zone defenses and protect the basket. Raef can do what he does best and block shots, run the floor and stretch the defense.
That's not to say that we should expect the same Raef as we've seen this year. He should work his butt off to improve his defensive rebounding. He's got the tools: stength, hands, leaping ability, quickness. There is no reason he can't be a better rebounder. I think eight boards a game is more than a reasonable number to ask of him. If we can get that many out of him, ten out of Dirk, seven out of Shawn and eight out of Malone, we'd be more than holding our own on the boards.

Finally, we need to improve our depth at the off-guard/small forward spot. We need to decide whether Griff, Bell, or Williams are worth holding on to. From what I've seen, the only guy that deserves to be back is Bell, but with his playoff performance, he may get a good offer somewhere else. Since we'll be spending our entire exception on a veteran power forward, free agency is not the answer. Maybe Mladen Sekularic decides to show up, maybe Rigaudeau decides to show up... But if I'm the Mavs, I'm looking to better my odds through the draft. It's a low draft pick and odds are that you won't find someone who can impact you right away, but swingmen are quicker to come along than big men or point guards. And if I'm the Mavs, I want as many chips on the table as possible. Hopefully one of the three - Sekularic, Rigo, or the draft pick, will come up a winner.

That's all. No need to totally rethink this team. I think that we're pretty equal with the Spurs barring injury. If we would have taken the two home games like we should have, we would have won this series. Add Malone and some depth at the two/three, and I like our chances even more.

mavsfanforever · 05-26-2003, 09:34 PM

We also need to get Rid of Matt Pinto, Bob Ortegel and Derek harper. They suck big-time.

Bob ortegel acts as if he is the COY for 20 years.

Matt Pinto just says Chaching the mavericks money ball.

derek harper has no knowledge of basketball. he thinks he is the best maverick all time.

Drbio · 05-26-2003, 09:38 PM

<< Brad Davis has no knowledge of basketball. he thinks he is the best maverick all time. >>

Good grief. This is rediculous.

ariosto · 05-26-2003, 09:48 PM

<<

<< 2. Trade Van Exel for Artest. >>

KG I agree we should probably trade NVE. I'm a big believer in buy low, sell high. NVE's stock is very doubtful to get any higher than it currently is now. He's getting older and slowing down. But he's just had the best stretch of his career during the playoffs. The odds are extremely stacked against him staying this good or getting better. Best time to trade.

But I'm not a fan of breaking Artest here. He's an out of control player. Could possible disrupt team chemistry. Don't think he's the best we can get. >>

I think the doubts about Artest are more than justified, but you have to consider his upside on this team as well. The guy is probably the toughest perimeter defender in the league. He was the runner-up for Defensive Player of the Year, and he has pretty good offense. He brings exactly the toughness and defense that we need.

But I think you are right on about buy low, sell high. Jermaine O'Neal has demanded that Artest be traded, and that means we can probably get a deal. The Pacers have also put Al Harrington on the block. I think if we offered Fin or Van Exel we could get both players in return. We could end up with a line-up of:

PG: Nash/Ridnour
SG: Fin
SF: Artest/Harrington
PF: Malone/Harrington
C: Dirk/Bradley

of

PG: Nash/NVE
SG: Artest
SF: Harrington
PF: Malone
C: Dirk

These would be very good defensive line-ups and have a better low-post game than we have now.

mavsfanforever · 05-26-2003, 09:53 PM

<<

<< Brad Davis has no knowledge of basketball. he thinks he is the best maverick all time. >>

Good grief. This is rediculous. >>

Doc, I edited . I meant derek harper.

southern_sweets · 05-26-2003, 09:53 PM

Everyone getting healthy.

Just say no to Artest.

Brining Malone on board.

Keep the heart and soul of this team alive!

Drbio · 05-26-2003, 09:54 PM

mavsforever - much better, but the guy does know basketball. he just cant talk about it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

MFFL · 05-26-2003, 09:54 PM

<<

<<

<< Brad Davis has no knowledge of basketball. he thinks he is the best maverick all time. >>

Good grief. This is rediculous. >>

Doc, I edited . I meant derek harper. >>

Harper might not be the head of the class but the role call of players who were better than him can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

LRB · 05-26-2003, 10:51 PM

<< Just say no to Artest. >>

Thanks Nancy Reagan, err, I mean Souther Sweets. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

SpursFan72 · 05-27-2003, 02:50 AM

Hey Guys. I couldn't agree more with most of your analysis. It's pretty clear to me that all your team needs is a low post presence and someone that can anchor your D in the paint. You already have a dangerous and highly explosive team. While you could certainly go after veteran free agents like Karl Malone or P.J. Brown to help your team. I think going after veteran players that only have a few years left in them or trading one of your big four won't do anything to help your team in the long run. I think your much better off keeping your young nucleus together and allowing time for their chemistry to improve. If I were your team's GM, I would try to keep Dirk, Fin, Nash, Van Exel, Bell, and Najera together for many years to come. Raef can be a great player as well. Someone on your coaching staff just needs to spend some time with him in the summer teaching him a post game. He has good footwork, size, athleticism, and a nice looking jumpshot. All he needs is post moves.

When I saw him at Kansas, he scored easily in the paint because he was usually bigger than everyone else he faced. For some reason that I still don't understand, Roy Williams only taught him a basic drop step, turnaround jumper, and baby hook as means to score in the paint besides offensive rebounds. In his senior season he went from posting up in the paint and using these basic moves to being able to step out to the college three point line and knock down jumpers. For some reason, his learning stopped there and his ability to knock down jumpers gave him the reputation of a jumpshooter as he extended his range out to the NBA three point line.

I'm serious guys. If you were to work with Raef and get him reacquainted with the left block, there's no reason to believe he couldn't at least give you more points in the paint and open up more things for your other players. He doesn't need to become another Duncan to be effective, just be good enough to force other teams to respect him as a viable low post threat at the power forward position.

Next, you draft a guy like Kendrick Perkins, James Lang, or Jerome Beasley that could be a bull in the middle and block shots while giving you some offense. This would allow Dirk to slide over to the small forward spot and your team can use him like Sacramento uses their 6'10" Peja Stojocovic. Dirk is a better ballhandler than Peja and his shot is just as pure so there's no reason to believe that this couldn't be a good fit for him. All he would have to do is force the quicker small forwards he faces to drive baseline so Raef can slide over easily and contest shots while cutting off the baseline. And if they get by Raef you still have another shotblocker at the rim in Perkins, Lang, or Beasley. This is exactly the way the Spurs play D right now. They channel guys towards Robinson and Duncan for shot blocks near the rim. Your team can do the same thing.

Your team really isn't as far off from being dominant in the paint as some Mavs fans may think.

Just my two cents. I may be way off here, but something tells me I'm not.

ocelot_ark · 05-27-2003, 03:00 AM

SpursFan72,
The Mavs have already tried the strategy you just went over and it didn't work. Despite what the league, the officials, and other team's fans might think...Shawn Bradley and Raef are damn fine shot blockers. They just don't have the respect of the officials for this to be our defense.

We have the reputation as being soft defensively and no matter how hard we try to change our stripes, there is still no benefit added to the doubt.

ocelot_ark · 05-27-2003, 03:09 AM

Someone mentioned Al Harrington...now that's who I'd love to get.

Hell, the Pacers have quite a few guys I'd like to add:

Harrington
Artest
Foster

And perhaps the one I want the most, Jonathon Bender. He's the prototypical Nellie player. He's long, athletic, good jump shooter. I like the sound of Bender, Dirk, MLE, Bradley/Raef, Najera...whatever in the frontcourt.

I'd approach the Pacers with this:

NVE
1st round pick

for

Bender
Harrington/Artest

SpursFan72 · 05-27-2003, 03:18 AM

Ocelot, I guess I just don't think Raef is being fully utilized. He is an excellent shot blocker but to me he also is more than just a good jumpshooter. Since that's what he is perceived as being (just a jumpshooter) like many of your other players, your team is unfairly labeled as "soft" by members in the media. With some more work and refinement, Raef could become a good post player as well for your team and along with Najera, they could go a long way to help rip apart that label.

I know, for years my team unfairly wore that label as well, and its only now that they're starting to shed it and make believers out of people in the media. It took Duncan proving that he could score over and around Shaq to start to change that mindset.

I mean, part of the problem on Defense for you guys might be simply unfamiliarity. Van Exel and Raef haven't exactly been in big D very long. That in and of itself could explain the bad rotations your guys sometimes have on D that open up lanes for teams to drive in for layups. I really don't think your team needs major changes. Just more time to gel as a unit with set substitution patterns. Rather than the unpredictable lineups Nellie tends to put together. When your constantly changing players, it's easy for guys to not know where their teammates are going to be out on the floor at a given moment. As a result, guys over pursue or make the wrong rotation or read on defense and lanes to the basket open up.

Your team D is starting to get better as it is. I mean just compare the D your guys are playing now compared to the D your team played during the regular season. It's noticeably better now that you've had more time to work on it. Your team just isn't giving the Spurs the layups it gave up last year to Sacramento. With more time and practice, it will be even better next year. The last thing you want to do now is start trading a lot of guys and start bringing in alot of new faces. It will only make it more difficult to gel as a team.

I don't know what it is about Texas teams. For some reason we usually don't get the respect we deserve. I mean, how could any of our three teams be "soft", when visting teams collectively won only 9 games in Texas during the regular season.

nowitzki_prophecy · 05-27-2003, 03:32 AM

i dont see the reason in bring another 7 foother with weak defesive skills but an explosive offensive player.

Harrington and Artest are more than welcome,i would love to see both in a Mavs uniform,but be aware that both arent good enough to say that if we bring them are defensive issues are over,and we have a post game.
maybe with a good MLE,perosnaly,i would love PJ,but ofcourse Malone is also an excellent option,though now a days he prefers the J' shot over the post game.

ocelot_ark · 05-27-2003, 03:41 AM

<< i dont see the reason in bring another 7 foother with weak defesive skills but an explosive offensive player. >>

Obviously I don't watch a lot of Pacers basketball, but I don't think a kid with his athleticism could be worse defensively than Raef/Bradley.