What will it take to get the Mavs to the next level this off-season. - Page 2 - Dallas-Mavs.com Forums

nowitzki_prophecy · 05-27-2003, 07:07 AM

<< Obviously I don't watch a lot of Pacers basketball, but I don't think a kid with his athleticism could be worse defensively than Raef/Bradley. >>

if not being a worse defender would get you on our Roster,damn,95% of the league should take a number.
i see Bender as a very undiveloped Nowitzki,kinda like Dirk in his rookie year,but more of an athelete than a shooter,and i cant possibly think of why he should be brought on,since we have much much much more affective offensive tools than him,and im not sure he's even at a level to be registerd on our playoff roster...

i do like Harrington though,he's very talented and is a pretty good defensive AND offensive player,but like i said,players at their level could'nt possibly be expected to solve Our interior defense problem,or our Post game.
for that,we need a strong MLE player,than add some nice subs,and you got yourself the best team in the NBA,without a doubt the strongest NBA contender there is.

dude1394 · 05-27-2003, 07:24 AM

IMHO the spursfan makes a lot more sense than many of these mavs fans who somehow feel that if things aren't drastically changing, they aren't getting better. I see raef as having many of the tools we needed as well, but also think the whole team needs a tougher mind-set, they came very far this year in that category. I would love to see a very strong PF to compliment raef/dirk in the paint. I don't think that having nve is a problem AT ALL, and I also saw finley stepping up defensively.

They must address the rebounding aspects without losing a lot of offense, najera has been a dissappointment as the PF. Dirk CAN be the PF but not as his game and body makeup is right now.

nowitzki_prophecy · 05-27-2003, 07:44 AM

what actualy makes you think Raef CAN rebound??the fact he's 6'11 doesnt make him a natural rebounder.
i actualy think he Tried yesterday,he really did,you could have seen it in the fight he almost had with rose,he was frostrated,frostrated because Rose,6'7!!!!!!!is grabbing offensive board after offensive board,on a crucial time in the middle of the 4th.we might have won the game if it wasnt for those offensive rebounds since we were down by only 2,but they always get another crack at it.

no offense to raef,like i said,he did his best,but his rebounding will remain the same,and so will his post game.
his style of play might do better with a team that needs the 3pt threat from her centers,right now,what we really need from our centers is some freaking post game.
our best Post player is 6'1!!kinda hard to build on it in the money time,but Nick finds his way of taking his player down low.

we need PJ,we need Zo,and malone would'nt do so bad.the funny thing is,all of them would probably get half of what Raef is getting,but would be much more affective.

dude1394 · 05-27-2003, 08:00 AM

<< what actualy makes you think Raef CAN rebound??the fact he's 6'11 doesnt make him a natural rebounder. >>

Well I don't know dude, he averaged almost 8 per game until he came to the mavs, you think the mavs MIGHT have something to do with it? Dirk didn't reach 9.0 until his third year here. So what made you think HE could be a rebounder.

I don't think I said we didn't need a PF in our system, but something is wrong when a career 7.5 RPG guy drops off to less than 5 for THIS team. IMHO it's up to the coaching staff to get raef right with ball, he obviously has the physical skills, I'm just not sure he has the emotional/mental ones.

nowitzki_prophecy · 05-27-2003, 08:47 AM

<< what actualy makes you think Raef CAN rebound??the fact he's 6'11 doesnt make him a natural rebounder. >> >>

since when 7.5 rebounds states a good rebounder??he's a better rebounder than guards,but it doesnt make him a good rebounder,i actualy think he's one of the worst rebounder per 48 minutes for his height,if not the worse.

well,i guess the difference is in minutes.
he's having a hard time maintaining 20 something minutes per game,so ofcourse his numbers will go down in every department.
maybe even if he had gotten the same minutes he got in Denver,he still would'nt have got to 7.5,but he would have been pretty close.

i dont think its something the coaching staff did,he just isnt a good rebounder or post player,and bringing him to dallas and asking him real nicely would'nt change anything.
if we could teach him post moves?i doubt it,its an option but i doubt it.
not sure you could teach an old dog new tricks.
lots of teams would love to have him without his post game,but the Mavericks organization needs a post player,and not another tall shooter.

dude1394 · 05-27-2003, 09:01 AM

Well ~8 would put him right about amoung

16. Jamaal Magloire ( New Orleans Hornets) 6 2.8 5.5 50 8.3
17. Derrick Coleman ( Philadelphia 76ers) 12 2.4 5.6 96 8.0
17. Dale Davis ( Portland Trail Blazers) 6 3.3 4.7 48 8.0
19. Amare Stoudemire ( Phoenix Suns) 6 2.7 5.2 47 7.8
20. P.J. Brown ( New Orleans Hornets) 6 3.3 4.3 46

Those folks. I'm not saying he's a GREAT rebounder (in fact jason kidd has outrebounded all of the above in the playoffs) but going from 8 ->4.5 in a season tells you something doesn't it?

MFFL · 05-27-2003, 09:07 AM

Don't forget that Raef had a lengthy stay on the injured list and a long difficult road to work himself back into shape.

I do think it's sad that Raef only had 5 games with 10 or more boards in the regular season and 1 in the playoffs.

kg_veteran · 05-27-2003, 09:19 AM

I certainly think we should EXPECT Raef to have a better year next year. But I'm not gonna count on that as the means for this team's offseason improvement. If Raef and Shawn are still the center combo for the Mavs next season, I think the Mavs are in some trouble.

For those that don't like my idea of acquiring Artest, tell me who you think the Mavs should acquire instead. We still don't have a starting SF.

dude1394 · 05-27-2003, 09:21 AM

I agree MFFL, and it is totally unacceptable. But the reason of course is why? I cannot see a reason unless he just doesn't have the brain power to anticipate where the ball comes off.

I'm going to look through some more, but of course offensive rebounds he's really at a disadvantage because the offense has him sitting in the corner all of the time while someone else drives. His only recourse is to try and fly in at the precise moment that the shot goes up. Of course he's guessing that nash/nick/finley aren't going to try and whip it out to him at the same time.

Also certainly his PF's have gone up since being with the mavs also limiting him. He has played some pretty tough D on duncan, but no one person can stop the guy, especially with the MVP whistle blowing, but just period.

MavsFanFinley · 05-27-2003, 09:57 AM

<< For those that don't like my idea of acquiring Artest, tell me who you think the Mavs should acquire instead. We still don't have a starting SF. >>

I can't figure out his status and I'm not even sure they'd make a great trading partner, but what about George Lynch?

Not even sure we have what they want, but he's someone I've liked for a while.

madape · 05-27-2003, 10:01 AM

Offensive rebounding is not Raef's problem. He actually ranks right around the top of the Mavs with 1.8 per game. That's not great, but it's not terrible by any means. He almost breaks the NBA top 50. Where Raef really struggles is on the defensive glass, where his tendency to help out and challenge shots from every guard who burns past their defender often leaves him with his back to the basket as the shot hits the rim. Even Raef can tell you that it's hard to grab boards with your back to the basket. Zone defenses are also notorious for leaving centers in poor rebounding position as the shot goes up. It's hard to box out a man when you aren't guarding a man. Perhaps if Raef didn't have to challenge so many shots, or didn't have to play zone all the time, he'd put up better numbers. But we play zone for a reason, and replacing Raef with someone like Al Harrington won't keep guards out of the lane and won't allow us to man-up all the time. Until we fix our perimeter defense and are able to rely on man defenses more, we will need shotblockers on the court. It will always be a challenge for a shotblocker in a porous zone to get defensive rebounds.

kg_veteran · 05-27-2003, 10:22 AM

<< I can't figure out his status and I'm not even sure they'd make a great trading partner, but what about George Lynch?

Not even sure we have what they want, but he's someone I've liked for a while. >>

I like Lynch too, but he's 34 in September, and he only managed 18.5 mpg for New Orleans last year. Not sure why that is, but it is interesting. I just don't think he's good enough to be on the floor in crucial stretches and at the end of the game. That's the kind of SF we need.

OutletPass · 05-27-2003, 11:19 AM

My take: Kg and I had a few PM's before this thread got started and I have to say that I like his ideas and AE's ideas...AE put it very succinctly, but I have a couple of questions and a bit of a different slant. And that's toward some youth and building for the future around Dirk.

Malone or PJ would both be good additions...but I like PJ better. Malone is after the scoring record and I question whether he and his ego could fit. Also, I think that we get 2-3 years out of Malone at best. PJ is a much better player than people think. He's very content to play the defender/rebounder role and leave the scoring to the scorers.

Artest drives me crazy, I hate the SOB. But if he ever got his emotional problems under control, I'd welcome him. He IS a hell of a talent and can play both ends. I do think Indiana would do the NVE trade. Tinsley is not their answer. (So far)

But I'm not sure that I want to ONLY look to the next year or two. I'd rather that we have a much larger window....being 5-8 years. Dirk is 25 and 10 of the other 14 are 29 are over. Plain and simple, we need some good young players.

So we say goodbye to Popeye, Walt, Griff.. Rig-a-don't should be bought out. Raja should stay. Wish we could trade Esch...but who wants him ?

I want to see what Askrabic and Sekularic can do. Sekularic will be cheap, but Oggy won't. I'm afraid a bidding war is going to start over him. The Nellies should make decisions on these guys soon...or let them drop and move on.

We have serious rebounding needs and a big need at SF. PJ and Artest could help with those quite a bit. But I'd also like to deal for a much higher draft pick and at least get a center to develop. New York at #9 might be our spot. And I suspect a couple of good Euros are going to slip to that position. The draft choice point guard that NY has been salivating over isn't coming...and they're going to be desparate for a PG.

But we are NOT going to have a high pick anywhere in the next few years...and I'd like to see a move made. If we don't do it now, it'll just be harder in the future as our core guys (outside of Dirk) get older and start to lose a bit. PLEASE NOTE: OUR YOUNGEST ROSTER PLAYER IS DIRK !

I think that we have to start to get younger so as to keep the window open for more than just the next year or two. Let's quit bringing in aging vets like Popeye and Walt and focus on developing some young guys (in the NBA, not in Europe) So I'm willing to part with NVE, Raef and AJ's contract and our #1 pick (at 29)(or future picks) to get something done. I think that Raef has talent, but also that he's a head case. I don't know if he'll get over his confidence problems.

The idea of getting Zo scares the life out of me...that's too big of a gamble.

All this may be a pipe dream on my part...but exactly what are we going to do in two years when Fin and Nash start to go on the downslide ? And Dirk is essentially left alone. The "Big Three" won't last forever and we have to plan for it.

Personally, I'd love to see Brand and Maggette here...but as we all know...that's not going to happen.

As a final matter, I'd love to see Nellie move to Gm and let Donnie take the reins.

BUILD A DYNASTY...not a one championship team that can't get back !!!

jayC · 05-27-2003, 11:29 AM

1) To me better defensive perimeter and defenders that stop penetration. Who can score 15 points a game like an eddie jones. I believe that if you stop some of the penetration our centers don't look so ridiculous inside. Maybe more athletic ability solves the problem.(finley for eddie jones)
2) Trash the zone this team already has rebounding problems why make it worse with the zone.
3) I hear your on claxton but that's just one more small guard that teams can post up. Try to go after one homerun type player like GP. The glove would definitely be an upgrade defensively to nash, and still is a great offensive player.
4) Anyone that can get an offensive board and put it back. We can get a lot of offensive rebounds but how often do we put it back as a dunk.

That was a great post no doubt outlet.

Murphy3 · 05-27-2003, 11:30 AM

Madape does bring up a good point. As long as raef is relied on to help out on someone elses man as consistently as he is called upon, then he will continue to put up anemic numbers on the glass.

My only concern is that even with better perimeter defense, raef would still be a below average rebounder from his position.

But, regardless of who is placed in his position, they will likely be "underachievers" because of the constant help out defense that they are forced to play with a porous perimeter defense

ariosto · 05-27-2003, 11:53 AM

Outlet Pass: Great, great post. I agree with pretty much everything that you said. My only difference might be leaning towards keeping Nellie for another year, but I'm certainly open to seeing what Donnie can do.

nowitzki_prophecy · 05-27-2003, 12:04 PM

what do we know on Donnies coaching??havent really seen him coaching,but if it worth offering hinm a good position so he would'nt coach the Nuggets,than its got to be good.
what i wanna know is how different he is from his father??what are his coaching methods?
and is he mature enough to coach a team thats trying to win a championship?

Ummmmm Ok · 05-27-2003, 12:19 PM

I have been on and off on the whole coaching thing as to why I have never been involved in that topic. I think Nellie's tenure as coach of the Mavs is over. Its obvious that whatever Nellie can do with this team has hit it max and it won't go much further. Do I think Nellie is still a great coach, of COURSE, but do I think we need to change a couple of pieces here and there to get us a championship caliber team. Absolutely. With Nellie I was surprised we got this far and if Webber would have been Healthy I seriosly doubt we would have. So with this, I say Move Don Nelson to GM, leave Donnie as President of basketball operations, and bring in Paul Silas.

Dooby · 05-27-2003, 12:55 PM

<< Everyone getting healthy.

...

Keep the heart and soul of this team alive! >>

Sorry, Sweets, I don't mean to jump on you, but if the Mavs have this attitude in the offseason, I will have a conniption fit. This team cannot play the "what if" game; this team cannot make excuses for not getting past the Spurs.

In every off-season, a true championship contender will ask how they can make the team better. With that attitude, the "what if Dirk were healthy" question is meaningless. This team can be better than it is, and that is all there is to it.

aexchange · 05-27-2003, 02:53 PM

Acquirable targets for the off-season via trade or signed as a FA:
SF:
1. Desmond Mason
2. Shane Battier
3. Lamar Odom
4. Scottie Pippen

PF:
1. PJ Brown
2. Karl Malone
3. Coleman

C:
1. Mourning
2. Jamal Magloire
3. Elden Campbell

Murphy3 · 05-27-2003, 02:55 PM

thank you aex, i'll take one from each position please

Ummmmm Ok · 05-27-2003, 02:59 PM

HA I take it a bit farther Murph... I want these:

SF:
1. Desmond Mason

PF:
2. Karl Malone

C:
2. Jamal Magloire

kg_veteran · 05-27-2003, 03:02 PM

<< Acquirable targets for the off-season via trade or signed as a FA:

SF:
1. Desmond Mason >>

- I like him, but what would it take to get him?

<< 2. Shane Battier >>

- I like him, but what would it take to get him?

<< 3. Lamar Odom >>

- He's intriguing, but don't think he's the defender you want.

<< 4. Scottie Pippen >>

- I'd take him, but don't know how you convince him to come here for very little money.

<< PF:
1. PJ Brown >>

- If Malone won't come here, do it.

<< 2. Karl Malone >>

- Really the guy the Mavs must get.

<< 3. Coleman >>

- No thanks.

<< C:
1. Mourning >>

- Depends on what it takes to get him.

<< 2. Jamal Magloire >>

- This guy's probably out of reach.

<< 3. Elden Campbell >>

- Surely Sonics keep him.

dude1394 · 05-27-2003, 03:11 PM

<< 1. PJ Brown >>

- If Malone won't come here, do it.

<< 2. Karl Malone >>

- Really the guy the Mavs must get.

Looked at realgm and PJ makes the same bucks as Raef does. I believe that is more than mle. I also assume malone will want more than that as well won't he?

aexchange · 05-27-2003, 03:30 PM

i think realistic acquisitions we could get at SF, PF, C would be:

shane battier from memphis
they are overloaded at the SF/SG positions and battier is a perfect component for what we need. shoots a good percentage from the field, is an excellent defender at the 3, a more than adequate rebounder, can block some shots and will get over a steal a game. his stats wont wow you, but overall i think he's the perfect piece for the mavs. he would instantly be the starting 3 for the mavs. you could probably pry him loose from the grizzlies for a future first round pick plus an expiring contract.

PJ Brown
not sure how much he is going to ask for. if he asks for more than half of the MLE, i'd consider asking dale davis to split the MLE and sign a semi long term deal. we need somebody who can protect dirk in the paint.

Mourning
it might take more than half of the MLE to get him to sign. but i just don't see anybody offering him the entire MLE. unlike malone who has turned into more of a jump shooter at this stage of his career, mourning has always been and always will be a low post player. i'm not as high on malone as everyone else is because frankly, i think dirk is a better low post player in their respective careers. mourning fills more needs. signed to a short term deal, he won't hurt the mavs at all should he become sick or things dont pan out.

ariosto · 05-27-2003, 03:36 PM

<< shane battier from memphis
they are overloaded at the SF/SG positions and battier is a perfect component for what we need. shoots a good percentage from the field, is an excellent defender at the 3, a more than adequate rebounder, can block some shots and will get over a steal a game. his stats wont wow you, but overall i think he's the perfect piece for the mavs. he would instantly be the starting 3 for the mavs. you could probably pry him loose from the grizzlies for a future first round pick plus an expiring contract.
>>

The Grizzlies will definitely be trying to clear cap space and I think Battier will be available. I was looking at their contracts recently, and they are in bad shape. They need to get rid of Lorenzen Wright, Dickerson, and some other guys in order to be players in the free-agent market in a couple of years, as I'm sure Jerry West would like to be.

dude1394 · 05-27-2003, 03:38 PM

Why do we think that PJBrown would play for half of the mle when he's making raef money now?

aexchange · 05-27-2003, 03:40 PM

b/c hes a free agent and he's old.

just b/c he was making raef money doesnt mean he still can. at least not with the state of economics in the league right now.

dude1394 · 05-27-2003, 03:42 PM

Although I haven't seen him play, he looks ok but a little slight. Would like someone a little heavier.

kg_veteran · 05-27-2003, 03:43 PM

I could be wrong, but I don't see anyone giving Brown or Malone more than the MLE (except that the Jazz might give Malone more).

ariosto · 05-27-2003, 03:45 PM

<< Why do we think that PJBrown would play for half of the mle when he's making raef money now? >>

I certainly can't say for sure he will sign for the MLE. But most people in the press seem to expect him to go to a contender for the MLE. I hear a lot of talk about him taking the Lakers' exception. Also, he will be 34 next year. That's usually about the time players take a pay-cut. He signed that contract with the Heat when he was 27.

Edit: Here's something from ESPN:

"P.J. Brown has said all along that he wants to stay in New Orleans, but the 10-year veteran says he also wants to win an NBA title. That's why Brown says the Hornets' decision on a coach to replace dismissed Paul Silas might have a lot to do with whether he returns to New Orleans, which is like playing on the hometown team for the Slidell resident. "I've played this game for 10 years and I want a chance to earn a ring," said Brown, who officially becomes a free agent July 1. "This is going to be my last contract, and I'm looking at the leadership and direction where the team is going to be.""

kg_veteran · 05-27-2003, 03:45 PM

I really like the idea of Battier. Could you could get him for AJ and a No. 1?

If Mourning would split the exception with Dale Davis, I'd say go for it. I'd still rather have Malone, but Mourning and Davis would be a nice tandem up front if Mourning could stay healthy.

ariosto · 05-27-2003, 03:47 PM

<< Although I haven't seen him play, he looks ok but a little slight. Would like someone a little heavier. >>

He is a little thin. At 6'11", 240 he's the exact same size as Raef. I'd like bigger guy to put on Duncan or Shaq, but PJ's reputation is that he's tough as nails.

Dooby · 05-27-2003, 03:49 PM

Battier is a good example of what we need. Not a star by any means, but a solid player that can start on almost any team.

battier and Wright or Dickerson for AJ and Esch works; you could toss in some cash, they might be interested.

jayC · 05-27-2003, 03:50 PM

What would it take to get a guy like Theo Ratliff he would be a perfect fit. 8.5 ppg 7.5 rbg, and 3.23 bpg. In 2000 with the 76ers he was part of the all nba defensive second team. How many man on shot blockers do we have on this team? I venture to say we don't have one. nick the quick for ratliff an offense for defense trade. Ratliff only has two years left on his deal.

kg_veteran · 05-27-2003, 04:12 PM

<< Battier is a good example of what we need. Not a star by any means, but a solid player that can start on almost any team.

battier and Wright or Dickerson for AJ and Esch works; you could toss in some cash, they might be interested. >>

Wright or Dickerson work for me. I remember Dickerson as a pretty decent defensive player who could also score, before he got injured. I wonder what his health status is?

MFFL · 05-27-2003, 04:12 PM

<< Battier is a good example of what we need. Not a star by any means, but a solid player that can start on almost any team.

battier and Wright or Dickerson for AJ and Esch works; you could toss in some cash, they might be interested. >>

I've ALWAYS wanted Battier on this team. He is a perfect "glue" guy.

kg_veteran · 05-27-2003, 04:49 PM

So let's go get him, eh?

FilthyFinMavs · 05-27-2003, 06:27 PM

Battier reminds me of a smaller version of Najera but with a pretty good offensive game and 3 point shot. I doubt West gives up on that. I doubt West trades anything to the Western conference.

Mark isn't trading anyone out of the BIG 3 and maybe even Nick also. With that being saId I come at guys I have a chance at getting. Scrap the Malone idea and get some rough guys who aren't here to grab a record and that don't have there attention on themselves like Malone does. Dale Davis or P.J. Brown are those guys. I love Jerome Moiso. He is a young guy who sort of reminds me of a Keon Clark but he is finally starting to break out. I go after him because he shouldn't be to hard to get. The thing about this draft is that there are gonna be alot of steals. Five to six teams have cap space this off season and there are over 15 great to serviceable guys in this pool. Maggette could be that steal. Mavs are gonna have there chance to grab a very skilled player this off season. I suggest they do it quick because just like last season they aren't going to wait for the Mavs to acquire them. I'd hate to give up on Griff or Raja because they both actually play defense and can hit a open jumper. I don't see why there isn't room for 2 guys who can play the 2 or 3 position.

ariosto · 05-27-2003, 08:41 PM

<<

<< Battier is a good example of what we need. Not a star by any means, but a solid player that can start on almost any team.

battier and Wright or Dickerson for AJ and Esch works; you could toss in some cash, they might be interested. >>

Wright or Dickerson work for me. I remember Dickerson as a pretty decent defensive player who could also score, before he got injured. I wonder what his health status is? >>

He could help us if he ever played, but I get the feeling he might be a Terrell Brandon. He may never come back. I might take him anyway, if we could get Battier and maybe ditch Esch.